Remember way way back when we were asking if Modern was going to be Little Legacy or Big Standard? At this point I think it is fair to say that Modern is Little Legacy. Historic is going to be Big Standard. It will be a lower powered non-rotating format post New World Order.
What will be really telling is if, down the road, Historic becomes "Little Little Legacy". I'm mildly conspiratorial that this is just a symptom of eternal formats having been around for too long; may also be relevant that paper prevents more pointed nerfs (like straight up altering cards), but that probably requires a much deeper analysis than I can bother with.
Little Teferi is terrible in Modern, terrible in Standard, will be terrible in Historic, and is likely the worst design mistake in years.
I think its positively laughable that people think Big Teferi, is worse than T3feri, for the game. I'm comfortable saying that Esper would dominate Historic, if it was played competitively, for some time.
Remember way way back when we were asking if Modern was going to be Little Legacy or Big Standard? At this point I think it is fair to say that Modern is Little Legacy. Historic is going to be Big Standard. It will be a lower powered non-rotating format post New World Order.
At the time, Modern was big extended. Consider though that Modern today has a larger card pool than Legacy had when Modern released. With more cards comes a higher power level. Arenas power level will go up over time.
just out of curiosity. How does the Urza deck win the game. I mean what's the win con of the deck? thanks
You should check out the Deck Tech by Brian Coval (former SCG Invitational winner). He said that the deck is reminiscent of the KCI deck, with Urza being the new "KCI."
The deck wins with Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek. Each mana, each turn, each artifact that produces U with Urza out, puts 1/1 fliers. Usually there will be an Ensnaring Bridge, so the opponent can't attack. Then the Urza player will draw a card and turn X 1/1s sideways. Pretty brutal stuff. Top 8 competitor Justin Porchas played the deck at 2 local tournaments and I actually didn't realize how strong it was. I was wondering why he'd play something so "bad." Lol, look how wrong I was...
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Once the combo is assembled, Urza generates infinite mana that can be used to activate his "Mind's Desire" ability so some lists are playing stuff that ends the game on the spot like Ghirapur Aether Grid.
Once the combo is assembled, Urza generates infinite mana that can be used to activate his "Mind's Desire" ability so some lists are playing stuff that ends the game on the spot like Ghirapur Aether Grid.
Yep, good point. There is an infinite combo in the deck. I kind of didn't listen much or understand that part, partially because I have yet to see and read an Urza in person (or online). Being a Prison deck that has Thopter Sword, and an infinite Combo, makes it a strong deck from different angles.
I seriously underestimated this card/deck. I was on the Hogaak train and figured, "why do I need to know what any other card does, lol?"
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
nice, the deck even has infinite combo. Should be a deck to watch out for, espescially when Hogaak finally eats a ban.
and glad to see that the iconic character Urza has found a home for his card in Modern,
nice, the deck even has infinite combo. Should be a deck to watch out for, espescially when Hogaak finally eats a ban.
and glad to see that the iconic character Urza has found a home for his card in Modern,
When I first saw Urza, I was sure it was just a Commander card. A local player who was on KCI, Lantern, and pretty much whatever current artifact iteration is best, has picked it up. Wow how wrong I was. In addition to just being good, it looks like another badge to sew onto the sash of horrid decks I hate playing against.
nice, the deck even has infinite combo. Should be a deck to watch out for, espescially when Hogaak finally eats a ban.
and glad to see that the iconic character Urza has found a home for his card in Modern,
When I first saw Urza, I was sure it was just a Commander card. A local player who was on KCI, Lantern, and pretty much whatever current artifact iteration is best, has picked it up. Wow how wrong I was. In addition to just being good, it looks like another badge to sew onto the sash of horrid decks I hate playing against.
It's cool for an iconic character to have a played card for sure. The problem is kitchen sink design (zatalpa, emrakul, etc.) just leads to poor gameplay I think. Urza just has a ton of very relevant text. Does he really need to survive bolt too? He never struck me as a particularly sturdy character prespark.
I mean the forums were all talking about potentially busted sai was going to be in similar lists and he would show up here or there as a two of maybe. For 1 mana more I get to turn my slow 2 card combo i already wanted to run into infinite mana/life/draw my deck. Not to mention how well it plays with the rest of the pieces you're already running.
I think the deck is okay to have around for now, but I'm not a fan of how quickly some of the new decks to beat can shift between game plans.
Decks like Phoenix/Urza/hoggak can progress multiple game plans at once while seeing a high volume of cards. Even if you path 1-2 Phoenix you're still fighting the yard/thing/and aria of flame. Even if you hit hoggak with yard hate you're still slogging trough 8-20 power on board accross multiple bodies by t2 sometimes. Even if you have spot removal for Urza you still need to have artifact removal for the sword combo/prison elements of the deck.
This is what has been bogging me down in the format the most. Decks can shift gears seamlessly and really turn the corner in two turns in most cases to execute a win. I ran westvale abbey in elves but the cost of not tapping for G on T1 AND having to sac 5 guys was very real. Where is the cost to these payoff cards they keep printing? Where is the sacrifice if my opponent can respond?
I feel kinda silly that I was so hyped for Serra when she reads like serras angel in most cases and there were cards like this in the set.
Decks like Phoenix/Urza/hoggak can progress multiple game plans at once while seeing a high volume of cards. Even if you path 1-2 Phoenix you're still fighting the yard/thing/and aria of flame. Even if you hit hoggak with yard hate you're still slogging trough 8-20 power on board accross multiple bodies by t2 sometimes. Even if you have spot removal for Urza you still need to have artifact removal for the sword combo/prison elements of the deck.
I find it interesting that many people used this exact description of a multi-layered approach as justification for bans in the past. It's just as silly now as it was then, but no less infuriating to see these decks praised for "diversity" while the last decks that had multi-layered approaches are all banned, and celebrated as banned for that reason.
Thats what its going to take to remain Tier 1 now. You must have multiple plan's, be able to pivot to them quickly, and either present an unanswerable boardstate, lock your opponents out, or generate such fundamental advantage that their plan becomes meaningless.
Its the same as my issue really with all the GY hate. There are SO MANY decks that could leverage the yard, but if you are not doing that PLUS 1 or 2 other busted things, you dont get to hang with the big kids table.
Its the same as my issue really with all the GY hate. There are SO MANY decks that could leverage the yard, but if you are not doing that PLUS 1 or 2 other busted things, you dont get to hang with the big kids table.
That was actually the nail in the coffin why I stopped Grixis Shadow. If someone RIP/Leylines me, if I mill/lose any of my 7 mana producing lands, half of my win cons (Gurmag) are literally uncastable. LOL. God forbid I just wanna play some Delve threats, K Command, and Snapcasters. These 7-9 GY hate pieces in the 75 tell me that if I'm using the GY, it needs to be absurdly busted to justify it. Or it needs to be in colors that can deal with resolved enchantments.
nice, the deck even has infinite combo. Should be a deck to watch out for, espescially when Hogaak finally eats a ban.
and glad to see that the iconic character Urza has found a home for his card in Modern,
When I first saw Urza, I was sure it was just a Commander card. A local player who was on KCI, Lantern, and pretty much whatever current artifact iteration is best, has picked it up. Wow how wrong I was. In addition to just being good, it looks like another badge to sew onto the sash of horrid decks I hate playing against.
It's cool for an iconic character to have a played card for sure. The problem is kitchen sink design (zatalpa, emrakul, etc.) just leads to poor gameplay I think. Urza just has a ton of very relevant text. Does he really need to survive bolt too? He never struck me as a particularly sturdy character prespark.
I mean the forums were all talking about potentially busted sai was going to be in similar lists and he would show up here or there as a two of maybe. For 1 mana more I get to turn my slow 2 card combo i already wanted to run into infinite mana/life/draw my deck. Not to mention how well it plays with the rest of the pieces you're already running.
I think the deck is okay to have around for now, but I'm not a fan of how quickly some of the new decks to beat can shift between game plans.
considering that Blind Seer who is basically Urza is a 3/3. Maybe this time he is wearing his armor, so the added 1 toughness. And the 1 power also fits him lore wise. Urza is intelligent but also a bit of a d*ck. You need to impress him with a cool combo of artifacts first before he gives you the win.
nice, the deck even has infinite combo. Should be a deck to watch out for, espescially when Hogaak finally eats a ban.
and glad to see that the iconic character Urza has found a home for his card in Modern,
When I first saw Urza, I was sure it was just a Commander card. A local player who was on KCI, Lantern, and pretty much whatever current artifact iteration is best, has picked it up. Wow how wrong I was. In addition to just being good, it looks like another badge to sew onto the sash of horrid decks I hate playing against.
Expect nothing less from a genius planeswalker. Urza has manage to revive KCI. Well, kidding aside.. the deck does not look as powerful as KCI yet.
________________________________________
July 8 is getting nearer.. will Hogaak be ban, or stay for more months?
Pretty sure with Hogaak, it'll depend on 3 things:
Is the data they have sufficient enough to determine if Hogaak needs a ban?
Is the strain it's putting on sideboards too high?
Is it winning too often before T4?
If they believe the answer to question 1 is "no", the answer to the other two questions won't really matter right now since that'll mean that they're withholding judgment for another month. Question 2's probably the biggest question because GGT got banned for doing just that, except the post Hogaak meta seems to require no less than 6 anti-grave cards in every deck, which is more than what people were running before GGT's ban. I don't know what the answer to question 3 is, but I'd be interested if anyone knows anyone who's done a lot of grinding with the deck who can give a more definite answer.
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Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Is there any events this weekend? If not, nothing changes. No bans or unbans.
No, it's M20 Prerelease weekend. I doubt any bans will happen this quickly. Wizards wants to give players a chance to "adapt" to the new meta, just like they did with Eye of Ugin. (Now I don't know if that's the best decision, but just trying to think inside of their mind, lol.)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
im holding fast to the opinion that action will only be taken next week if wizards believes current developments would be a significant detriment to the optics of the mythic championship.
this likely means mtgo would have to be showing some scarily skewed results beyond what any of us can or have seen since its easier to attack certain decks in small(er) invite tournaments; with bridgevine being no exception. the fear being overwhelming representation and dominance despite it. whereas it just being the villain, and the narrative of it being suppressed by creative or intelligent deck choices sounding alright.
"Reveal a Dragon"
If (and its a big if) Historic becomes a competitive paper format, I 100% am positive Little Teferi will be banned, day 1. The card is not fine.
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think its positively laughable that people think Big Teferi, is worse than T3feri, for the game. I'm comfortable saying that Esper would dominate Historic, if it was played competitively, for some time.
Spirits
At the time, Modern was big extended. Consider though that Modern today has a larger card pool than Legacy had when Modern released. With more cards comes a higher power level. Arenas power level will go up over time.
just out of curiosity. How does the Urza deck win the game. I mean what's the win con of the deck? thanks
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
You should check out the Deck Tech by Brian Coval (former SCG Invitational winner). He said that the deck is reminiscent of the KCI deck, with Urza being the new "KCI."
The deck wins with Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek. Each mana, each turn, each artifact that produces U with Urza out, puts 1/1 fliers. Usually there will be an Ensnaring Bridge, so the opponent can't attack. Then the Urza player will draw a card and turn X 1/1s sideways. Pretty brutal stuff. Top 8 competitor Justin Porchas played the deck at 2 local tournaments and I actually didn't realize how strong it was. I was wondering why he'd play something so "bad." Lol, look how wrong I was...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Yep, good point. There is an infinite combo in the deck. I kind of didn't listen much or understand that part, partially because I have yet to see and read an Urza in person (or online). Being a Prison deck that has Thopter Sword, and an infinite Combo, makes it a strong deck from different angles.
I seriously underestimated this card/deck. I was on the Hogaak train and figured, "why do I need to know what any other card does, lol?"
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)and glad to see that the iconic character Urza has found a home for his card in Modern,
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
When I first saw Urza, I was sure it was just a Commander card. A local player who was on KCI, Lantern, and pretty much whatever current artifact iteration is best, has picked it up. Wow how wrong I was. In addition to just being good, it looks like another badge to sew onto the sash of horrid decks I hate playing against.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It's cool for an iconic character to have a played card for sure. The problem is kitchen sink design (zatalpa, emrakul, etc.) just leads to poor gameplay I think. Urza just has a ton of very relevant text. Does he really need to survive bolt too? He never struck me as a particularly sturdy character prespark.
I mean the forums were all talking about potentially busted sai was going to be in similar lists and he would show up here or there as a two of maybe. For 1 mana more I get to turn my slow 2 card combo i already wanted to run into infinite mana/life/draw my deck. Not to mention how well it plays with the rest of the pieces you're already running.
I think the deck is okay to have around for now, but I'm not a fan of how quickly some of the new decks to beat can shift between game plans.
Decks like Phoenix/Urza/hoggak can progress multiple game plans at once while seeing a high volume of cards. Even if you path 1-2 Phoenix you're still fighting the yard/thing/and aria of flame. Even if you hit hoggak with yard hate you're still slogging trough 8-20 power on board accross multiple bodies by t2 sometimes. Even if you have spot removal for Urza you still need to have artifact removal for the sword combo/prison elements of the deck.
This is what has been bogging me down in the format the most. Decks can shift gears seamlessly and really turn the corner in two turns in most cases to execute a win. I ran westvale abbey in elves but the cost of not tapping for G on T1 AND having to sac 5 guys was very real. Where is the cost to these payoff cards they keep printing? Where is the sacrifice if my opponent can respond?
I feel kinda silly that I was so hyped for Serra when she reads like serras angel in most cases and there were cards like this in the set.
I find it interesting that many people used this exact description of a multi-layered approach as justification for bans in the past. It's just as silly now as it was then, but no less infuriating to see these decks praised for "diversity" while the last decks that had multi-layered approaches are all banned, and celebrated as banned for that reason.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Its the same as my issue really with all the GY hate. There are SO MANY decks that could leverage the yard, but if you are not doing that PLUS 1 or 2 other busted things, you dont get to hang with the big kids table.
Spirits
That was actually the nail in the coffin why I stopped Grixis Shadow. If someone RIP/Leylines me, if I mill/lose any of my 7 mana producing lands, half of my win cons (Gurmag) are literally uncastable. LOL. God forbid I just wanna play some Delve threats, K Command, and Snapcasters. These 7-9 GY hate pieces in the 75 tell me that if I'm using the GY, it needs to be absurdly busted to justify it. Or it needs to be in colors that can deal with resolved enchantments.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Deck power in the last 8 months has increased dramatically.
Spirits
considering that Blind Seer who is basically Urza is a 3/3. Maybe this time he is wearing his armor, so the added 1 toughness. And the 1 power also fits him lore wise. Urza is intelligent but also a bit of a d*ck. You need to impress him with a cool combo of artifacts first before he gives you the win.
Expect nothing less from a genius planeswalker. Urza has manage to revive KCI. Well, kidding aside.. the deck does not look as powerful as KCI yet.
________________________________________
July 8 is getting nearer.. will Hogaak be ban, or stay for more months?
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
Spirits
No, it's M20 Prerelease weekend. I doubt any bans will happen this quickly. Wizards wants to give players a chance to "adapt" to the new meta, just like they did with Eye of Ugin. (Now I don't know if that's the best decision, but just trying to think inside of their mind, lol.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)this likely means mtgo would have to be showing some scarily skewed results beyond what any of us can or have seen since its easier to attack certain decks in small(er) invite tournaments; with bridgevine being no exception. the fear being overwhelming representation and dominance despite it. whereas it just being the villain, and the narrative of it being suppressed by creative or intelligent deck choices sounding alright.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)