Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Modern finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
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No format bashing. If you don't like Modern, that's fine, but constructively/respectfully explain why and be optimistic.
Similarly, do not use this thread to voice grievances, complaints, and personal gripes without constructive/respectful suggestions.
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The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Due to the history of flaming and trolling in the thread effective immediately any infraction for trolling or flaming will result in a week suspension.
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
There are also some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
Well, that turns off the altar angle. Not entirely, they can still recur gravecrawler a few times per turn, but no more full mill once they hit to bridges.
This leaves the deck powerful, but eliminates the turn 2 / 3 kill. They can still have a turn 3 virtual kill if you can't manage a Hogaak with a few friends.
I like Altar, it opens up neat strategies, and Hogaak is one of the most creative designs in years. Bridge seems to exist only to break every few months and never just be part of a fair deck that can be interacted with the way it should be. I would have been very sad to see either of the others go, especially because they would probably be quickly replaced with a less interesting but no less powerful card, but Bridge in all the years it was legal never did anything healthy
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It's nice to get the validation of WotC doing exactly what I've been saying they should. Glad to see this, if a little discouraged there wasn't any talk at all about unbans.
I think SaffronOlive has a good take on this. It's almost an Emergency Ban.
They had a ton of MTGO data, a ton of 5-0s (3x more than the next best deck) warped the meta (and I'll still have Surgical main) and it was keeping anything else out of real testing.
This gives a window of testing before the next event as they mention as well.
Sweet. Super pumped to see the real post-MH1 meta.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm not sure if I like this. As I said in my previous post with this deck gone Tron will come back and we have metagame where fair decks are dead except for uw. I wish I was wrong on this one but I'm very sure this is (unfortunately) going to happen.
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My decks:
Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
I think this is the right choice, I think banning "weird" cards is a good idea just because they can just break at any time.
I will expect we will see how the format goes at the next Pro tour or whatever they are called now then decide if anything else needs to be banned (or unbanned... free stoneforge)
I'm not sure if I like this. As I said in my previous post with this deck gone Tron will come back and we have metagame where fair decks are dead except for uw. I wish I was wrong on this one but I'm very sure this is (unfortunately) going to happen.
I believe UW is now powerful enough on its own to suppress Tron. We will see.
Seeing a lot of pros worry/complain/cheer that they will just play Phoenix or Dredge now, but UWx does not lose to those decks if it doesn't want to either.
Long story short. You still need your GY hate, but watch out for UW.
All things considered I'd say this ends up as a win for modern. I'm still shocked at some of the cards on the ban list considering what is legal but I'm glad they did what they could to not disrupt other decks and also keep the Hogaak deck as a competitive option.
I am starting to get worried about WU control though. With bridge gone and the Hogaak deck slowing down in general sweepers will become far more effective. On top of that with the 4 field of ruin 2 surgical package tron is a far less scary matchup than it used to be so if people reckon tron will be back that's pretty grim.
It's not like there's any 1 card in WU that is too strong it's just that in the last 2 years the deck has got access to field of ruin, opt, big teferi, little teferi, narset, jace, force of negation, dovin's veto and other less played options like fof and search for azcanta. That is a ton of tools that have really pushed the deck to the top.
All things considered I'd say this ends up as a win for modern. I'm still shocked at some of the cards on the ban list considering what is legal but I'm glad they did what they could to not disrupt other decks and also keep the Hogaak deck as a competitive option.
I am starting to get worried about WU control though. With bridge gone and the Hogaak deck slowing down in general sweepers will become far more effective. On top of that with the 4 field of ruin 2 surgical package tron is a far less scary matchup than it used to be so if people reckon tron will be back that's pretty grim.
It's not like there's any 1 card in WU that is too strong it's just that in the last 2 years the deck has got access to field of ruin, opt, big teferi, little teferi, narset, jace, force of negation, dovin's veto and other less played options like fof and search for azcanta. That is a ton of tools that have really pushed the deck to the top.
Agreed that UW has gotten way stronger, but I think the thing going forward is that more cards like that should be printed that can go in other strats. Stuff like Hexdrinker, Seasoned Pyromancer, W6, Plague Engineer are all a good start. But we need more.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
solid announcement. i think many of us, including myself, were and are still hoping for some unbans; especially moreso along the lines of the precedent they set last year with the jace/bbe unbans. however for a non-rotating format like modern, and with the higher frequency of b&r announcements there isnt any rush.
if anything the format has been too chaotic as of late. better to give things time to settle
solid announcement. i think many of us, including myself, were and are still hoping for some unbans; especially moreso along the lines of the precedent they set last year with the jace/bbe unbans. however for a non-rotating format like modern, and with the higher frequency of b&r announcements there isnt any rush.
if anything the format has been too chaotic as of late. better to give things time to settle
Sad Commander player asks- I don't suppose there is any home at all for a pile of now almost worthless Paradox Engine in Modern ?
its shown up as a 1-of in urza lists. other than that the card is just way too slow to be relevant in a format like modern.
if you are really sitting on a stack of them id bite the bullet quick and dump them as quickly as possible.
Tbh, that helps. I can't stomach selling them at a loss after holding them since BEFORE they were expensive. If they do see a bit of play, I'll hold them. It's super unlikely to see a reprint and if that deck ever gets around to putting up results, they may go back up to $20 in a year or two. It would still feel bad to have missed the window, but I would like to break even, which I can't do right now. Thanks for the info!
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Bye Felicia. Bridge was a silly magic card, I couldn't agree with this more.
I think the criteria they used was fair and well supported. Those win rates are scary and not really something I want floating around the meta. I imagine that we'll be seeing more and more of this as we get stronger payoff cards with every set.
I'm glad they didn't wait, because sometimes I feel like waiting can send a signal that something like this is okay. I'm not in support of knee jerk reactions, but I think that they were a little too complacent with eldrazi. I remember being at a regionals event (200-300 players) and a large group of us lamenting not being able to break into the top tables that were 60-70% eldrazi players who were able to pick up pieces early. I played some great magic that weekend and even played a deck with a decent match up against it (elves); that deck just played a different game altogether.
I know there will be users who lament a ban that isn't backed by GP/Open/pro tour (or whatever they call the high end tournaments now) track record, but I think this is exactly the benefit of MTGO. They cited some strong numbers and this deck was still in its infancy for some of the 3 week period they referenced - which means slightly less refined lists and pilots moving into the deck for first reps.
Do I think the format slows down? Mmm not really. I still think neobrand is silly magic, and I still think there are decks that can deploy virtual t2-3 kills too often even if they don't end the games on those turns. I wouldn't be surprised if they start trimming more of these offenders out over time.
"Our goal is not to eliminate graveyard strategies from the Modern metagame, but rather to weaken this version of the graveyard combo archetype that has proven too powerful for other decks to reasonably adapt to."
I take this as a shot at people asking for looting to be banned. You are perfectly capable of adapting to looting decks. You just want dad to punish everyone else for playing them. LONG LIVE FAITHLESS LOOTING!!!
I just wish they would stop being coy about it.
But I look forward to our Dredge and Phoenix overlords taking back their rightful thrones!
Another ban on a tier 1 combo deck. Why does wizards refuse to allow combo to be anymore than tier 2 at best? Pod, Twin, Bloom, KCI, now Bridge. Sends a strong message that combo has no place in the modern format.
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Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Due to the history of flaming and trolling in the thread effective immediately any infraction for trolling or flaming will result in a week suspension.
Update from the July 8, 2019 B&R Announcement:
Bridge from Below is banned.
Next B&R Announcement:
August 26, 2019
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have or have not gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Bridge from Below is banned
Krark-Clan Ironworks is banned
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf unbanned
October 2017: No changes
March 2017: No changes
Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll are banned
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
Old threads:
20/05/2019 - 08/07/2019
11/03/2019 - 20/05/2019
21/01/2019 - 11/03/2019
26/11/2018 - 21/01/2019
01/10/2018 - 26/11/2018
08/20/2018 - 01/10/2018
07/02/2018 - 08/20/2018
04/16/2018 - 07/02/2018
02/10/2018 - 04/16/2018
01/15/2017 - 02/10/2018
10/27/2017 - 01/15/2017
7/18/2017 - 10/27/2017
3/23/2017 - 4/24/2017
3/13/2017 - 3/23/2017
1/9/17 Banlist Update
12/8/2016 - 3/13/2017
9/28/2016 - 12/10/2016
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
This leaves the deck powerful, but eliminates the turn 2 / 3 kill. They can still have a turn 3 virtual kill if you can't manage a Hogaak with a few friends.
I like Altar, it opens up neat strategies, and Hogaak is one of the most creative designs in years. Bridge seems to exist only to break every few months and never just be part of a fair deck that can be interacted with the way it should be. I would have been very sad to see either of the others go, especially because they would probably be quickly replaced with a less interesting but no less powerful card, but Bridge in all the years it was legal never did anything healthy
Spirits
Hogaak still is a deck after this ban, I wonder what replaces Bridge. Maybe Cryptbreaker, there were already some lists playing that.
They had a ton of MTGO data, a ton of 5-0s (3x more than the next best deck) warped the meta (and I'll still have Surgical main) and it was keeping anything else out of real testing.
This gives a window of testing before the next event as they mention as well.
Spirits
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Don't you think that the format dies because if a card is banned, isn't problematic? Looting should be considred before it becomes a Brainstorm.
Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
I will expect we will see how the format goes at the next Pro tour or whatever they are called now then decide if anything else needs to be banned (or unbanned... free stoneforge)
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Also lots of words about Faithless Looting (and other things) here: http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38840_Was-Banning-Bridge-From-Below-In-Modern-The-Right-Call.html
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I believe UW is now powerful enough on its own to suppress Tron. We will see.
Seeing a lot of pros worry/complain/cheer that they will just play Phoenix or Dredge now, but UWx does not lose to those decks if it doesn't want to either.
Long story short. You still need your GY hate, but watch out for UW.
Spirits
I am starting to get worried about WU control though. With bridge gone and the Hogaak deck slowing down in general sweepers will become far more effective. On top of that with the 4 field of ruin 2 surgical package tron is a far less scary matchup than it used to be so if people reckon tron will be back that's pretty grim.
It's not like there's any 1 card in WU that is too strong it's just that in the last 2 years the deck has got access to field of ruin, opt, big teferi, little teferi, narset, jace, force of negation, dovin's veto and other less played options like fof and search for azcanta. That is a ton of tools that have really pushed the deck to the top.
Agreed that UW has gotten way stronger, but I think the thing going forward is that more cards like that should be printed that can go in other strats. Stuff like Hexdrinker, Seasoned Pyromancer, W6, Plague Engineer are all a good start. But we need more.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Urza, Paradox Engine, Future Sight.
...obviously.
if anything the format has been too chaotic as of late. better to give things time to settle its shown up as a 1-of in urza lists. other than that the card is just way too slow to be relevant in a format like modern.
if you are really sitting on a stack of them id bite the bullet quick and dump them as quickly as possible.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Tbh, that helps. I can't stomach selling them at a loss after holding them since BEFORE they were expensive. If they do see a bit of play, I'll hold them. It's super unlikely to see a reprint and if that deck ever gets around to putting up results, they may go back up to $20 in a year or two. It would still feel bad to have missed the window, but I would like to break even, which I can't do right now. Thanks for the info!
I think the criteria they used was fair and well supported. Those win rates are scary and not really something I want floating around the meta. I imagine that we'll be seeing more and more of this as we get stronger payoff cards with every set.
I'm glad they didn't wait, because sometimes I feel like waiting can send a signal that something like this is okay. I'm not in support of knee jerk reactions, but I think that they were a little too complacent with eldrazi. I remember being at a regionals event (200-300 players) and a large group of us lamenting not being able to break into the top tables that were 60-70% eldrazi players who were able to pick up pieces early. I played some great magic that weekend and even played a deck with a decent match up against it (elves); that deck just played a different game altogether.
I know there will be users who lament a ban that isn't backed by GP/Open/pro tour (or whatever they call the high end tournaments now) track record, but I think this is exactly the benefit of MTGO. They cited some strong numbers and this deck was still in its infancy for some of the 3 week period they referenced - which means slightly less refined lists and pilots moving into the deck for first reps.
Do I think the format slows down? Mmm not really. I still think neobrand is silly magic, and I still think there are decks that can deploy virtual t2-3 kills too often even if they don't end the games on those turns. I wouldn't be surprised if they start trimming more of these offenders out over time.
But I look forward to our Dredge and Phoenix overlords taking back their rightful thrones!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate