So I'm trying to build the best "Esper Control" deck which doesn't play these (powerful) cards.
Since it is rotating soon and its price is plummeting (especially online where I play) I've decided to build the deck around Torrential Gearhulk as my bigger/slower Snapcaster Mage and it natually lead to going Esper to abuse Esper Charm which is an extremely potent card in a Control deck and probably the best pairing for Gearhulk besides Cryptic.
# Another soon rotating card which fits right in (and sort-of replaced Cryptic and Logic Knot) is Disallow and the Stifle mode is suprisingly useful.
# Since Gearhulk doesn't really work well with X-draw spells (Pull/Revelation) I've included 1x copy of Dragonlord's Prerogative
(a fancy Opportunity) to refill the hand.
For card advantage the PW's Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and Sorin, Grim Nemesis were chosen and the latter also has the upside of dealing damage and gaining life while occasionally shooting down other PW's so it seemed like a better option than a 2nd copy of Jace. Jace can also bounce back Gearhulk to recycle its EtB ability.
For card selection I have: 2x Search for Azcanta and 4x Serum Visions (Opt fits better for playing at instant speed but I prefer to set up my draws).
In the utility land slots I have: 4x Field of Ruin to deal with "Tron" and creature lands and Creeping Tar Pit as one of the finishers of the deck.
I also consider adding a copy of Academy Ruins (dirt cheap online) to replay Gearhulks in the late game (or ones binned early with Search) though I'm not sure what land to replace.
Pull is not bad but the deck is built around Gearhulk so Prerogative is better here, Pull also only gets better at 7-mana (x=5) anyway.
The budget deck has 2x Utter End in the SB which is abit slow but probably better for a control deck over the painful (and also more expensive) Anguished Unmaking.
The maindeck has 4x Cast Down which is a decent hard removal spell most of the time (and Push kills all the cheap legends like: Thalia, Baral, G.Teeg) so Tasigur (and Vendilion Clique) is the only problem but it can be taken care of with a wrath or aPW or a Gearhulk.
I chose to keep in Push over Path in the cheaper version to keep the budget down and as it is a better removal spell early on which doesn't ramp the opponent.
Secure the Wastes seems like a good option though it doesn't work with Gearhulk and is a bit pricy for the budget version. Lingering Souls is another card I considered but the sorcery speed kills it for this deck imho as I don't really want to tap out for anything besides Azcanta in the early game and aPW in the very late game (or after a wrath or not into open mana).
Gideon is a good card but doesn't exactly fit into the instant speed concept of the deck imho and the deck doesn't really have enough white sources to realiably cast it on turn 3 (or even 4).
Now that I think about some more maybe cutting Jace wasn't the right idea as it can come down sooner than Sorin and the Ult' can really help against some control/combo decks and it has some nice synergy with Gearhulk since you can bounce it back to hand to recycle the EtB ability. Sorin on the other hand offers removal (over bounce) and lifegain while serving as a slow win-con while drawing cards with the +1.
Another card which might be better is Day of Judgment which I consider replacing with a 5-mana wrath with an upside like: Consume the Meek (narrow but instant speed), Hallowed Burial (gets around indestructible) and Fumigate (gains life).
Is it a good idea or are 5-mana wraths unplayable in modern ?
I've considered Murderous Cut but I'm not sure how realiable it is in a fetchless deck so I went with 4x Cast Down as my "hard" removal.
The next step in upgrading the deck would be Path to Exile of course but I was trying to keep the price as low as possible (while maintaining playability).
Gifts Ungiven is a build around card imho if you want to consistently have good options for "Gift-Piles" so it is for another deck imho. Search for Azcanta serves the role of GY-filler, card-filterer and late-game draw engine here and it is so important imho that I've kept it in as the most expensive card in the budget build and decided to cut down on other cards.
Timely Reinforcements is good but I think that Blessed Alliance fits the deck better being an instant and an answer to hexproof/indestructible threats.
Nimble Obstructionist isn't bad though a bit fragile for a finisher imho and Ulamog's Nullifier is too conditional (especailly without PtE) and doesn't really attack very well. Venser's body is mostly irrelevant imho so I'd rather have (an instant) spell instead. Chromium, the Mutable can be a decent finisher (and make Dragonlord's Prerogative uncounterable) though 7-mana is a bit much.
I haven't really considered this creature lands because Shambling Vent doesn't have evasion and Faerie Conclave only taps for one color and the manabase is pretty tight as it is imho with FoR taking the utility land slots.
The manabase right now requires some very specific sequencing/synergy for the lands to come in untapped and that doesn't always happen either so I'm not sure how the creature-lands can find a place there (unless Field of Ruin is cut out of the deck to make room).
I'm not sure if an un-boltable Talrand that makes smaller tokens is what this deck needs with Murmuring Mystic.
With Torrential in the deck I don't really see room for Mission Briefing here as I wouldn't want to cut down on interactive spells and it can't really replace a cheap cantrip like Opt.
The Scarab God is a great fit and I've added it as 1x-of extra finisher in the less-budget build over Disenchant. Dragonlord Ojutai is pretty good though a bit expensive imho (I'm trying to keep the deck under 200$ and preferebly even less),
as is Archangel Avacyn also at 5-mana and bit higher in price there is also Baneslayer Angel.
Some more potential finishers can be Glyph Keeper (evasion + protection + recursion, but low toughness) and the classic Aetherling.
Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper is interesting but I'm not sure about exposing lands to removal in a deck which plays sweepers and a 5-mana creature without protection or an immediate impact is a tough sell as it is.
Some similar options which I like better are Disciple of the Ring and Ojutai Exemplars (only 4-mana).
Rune Snag is just rather underwhelming before the 2nd copy so i chose Mana Leak for the reliability (and it is also cheaper). Render Silent's upside doesn't seem particularly great to justify the stricter casting cost (and price) and Logic Knot doesn't seem better than Dissolve in the deck to be honest as I don't really want to exile my GY to flip Search and don't have fetches meaning I'd have to lose some Gearhulk targets
(it costs much more as well).
I'd probably even prefer Condescend to Logic Knot but Dissolve/Sinister Sabotage (or the more expensive Disallow) are better than both of them in this deck imho.
Hieroglyphic Illumination is an option for the Opt slot, as it trades the scry 1 for better Gearhulk value. Curator of Mysteries can be another 1-mana cantrip option that can be cast as a creature if drawn in the lategame though it lowers the spell count of the deck.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang does seem like a solid option to add more threats post-board, not sure what can be cut for it though.
After the new set releases this deck is proably getting better:
# The Hallowed Fountain reprint might lower the price low enough to still fit under the budget (around 200$).
# Absorb - is a good option for the 3-mana counter slot be it over Disallow in the more expensive version
(or over Sinister Sabotage in the budget version if it drops in price).
# Warrant // Warden - is a good new removal tool, basically an Azorius Charm with more upside for a control deck. Torrential can also flashback the Warden half (Serra Sphinx) later in the game which is great value.
It is definitely a consideration for the Cast Down slot in the budget version and maybe deserves a couple of slots in the less budget deck as well.
# Precognitive Perception (a better Jace's Ingenuity) - looks like an interesting draw spell, maybe it is worth replacing Dragonlord's Prerogative though I'm not sure how often casting it as a sorcery is going to happen.
Hey Dennis, just wanted to jump in to say that I used your low-budget deck list as my first foray into Esper control and Magic altogether. Its been a great gateway list into the hobby so many thanks for putting it together.
I've used the list to great effect so far with a couple of changes from newer sets you mentioned (Precognitive Perception) and I'm currently experimenting with Secure the Wastes, Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Dragonlord Ojutai but I'm unsure as to how best to fit these into the list. StW seems a great 2-of to utilise as a stall early-game or as a finisher.
Current upgrades from the low to semi-budget lists I am concentrating on are Disallow (love the anti-planeswalker ultimate possibilities over Absorb or Dissolve, the flexibility seems great), Path to Exile and Supreme Verdict. I may even slot a Teferi, Hero of Dominaria or Celestial Colonnade in afterwards should budget allow to give me a taste of bigger things.
Do you think there's anything in WAR that might fit your lists?
I'm also curious as to how Warrant/Warden works in terms of TG flashback? I would have thought that I can only cast the Warrant side of the card as Warden is a sorcery? I may be mistaken there.
while playing war set there where quite a few cards that leapt out at me a solid budget options for the deck.
first new tefair seems like a solid addition, making day of judgment/other board wipes and the warden for he split card instant speed is nice, as is the lock against other control decks and the stopping of combat tricks. this paired with some solid (almost unconditional) removal with card draw, seems this it should be at least 2 of maybe a 4 of
Narset, Parter of Veils as a sb and maybe mainboard, against phoenix, hollow one, dreadge, control, ect
Dovin's Veto, strict upgrade on sb negates
Ashiok, Dream Render seems like a solid sb option, fo alot of the modern meta
and maybe Dovin, Hand of Control as 1 of mb for stall against aggro, and a general tax effect that hits most decks in modern.
Tyrant's Scorn is one im on the fence about as it deals with anything but it is 2 mana.
with the amount of cheaper effective walkers in the set, i feel like there's a raff capashen ships mage version of the deck that's viable
Hey Dennis, just wanted to jump in to say that I used your low-budget deck list as my first foray into Esper control and Magic altogether. Its been a great gateway list into the hobby so many thanks for putting it together.
I've used the list to great effect so far with a couple of changes from newer sets you mentioned (Precognitive Perception) and I'm currently experimenting with: Secure the Wastes, Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Dragonlord Ojutai but I'm unsure as to how best to fit these into the list. StW seems a great 2-of to utilise as a stall early-game or as a finisher.
Do you think there's anything in WAR that might fit your lists?
I'm also curious as to how Warrant // Warden works in terms of TG flashback? I would have thought that I can only cast the Warrant side of the card as Warden is a sorcery? I may be mistaken there.
I'm glad you liked it.
Secure the Wastes is a good card though fits less in a build so focused on Torrential Gearhulk and would probably work better with Snapcaster Mage for additional value. Ojutai is a decent finisher (combo's with Minamo for "true" hexproof Btw) but is probably a bit too slow to generate value as a sorcery speed card that needs to connect. Tasigur is pretty good though it turns on opposing removal unless you can sandbag it until you can cast and protect it with enough mana up.
Other good finishers are Chromium, the Mutable which is very slow but hard to interact with and The Scarab God (still rather expensive) which can generate an absurd amount of value.
Regarding Warrant // Warden I think you could cast either half with Gearhulk as it is technically both instant and sorcery so it can target it and you get to choose which half you want to cast same as was in Standard with Commit // Memory where you could cast either half of the card.
yeah fact or fiction will be a budget modern staple for control and i really like it for the deck
i may be wrong but i think that Kaya's Guile may be one of the strongest budget(for now) cards in the set. i would run 3 in one esper charm slot and 2 cast down slots, each ability in has is a sb ability, but is a sb bring in against so much of the meta that you may as well run it mb. its no cryptic but its still very good
archmages charm also looks solid (people seemed hyped about it but its not even close to cryptic and i don't think mono u delver has enough tools to be tear 1 so i imagine its price will drop fairly fast)
the snow synagys help iron out some of issues the more budget versions of the deck have.
the reson im posting it is that i've found Kaya's Guile to be constantly the best card in the deck, every mode is basically something you would sb in rounds 2-3 anyway, and having its versatility is extremely useful in the current meta.
ive was also pleasantly surprised by how often Silumgar's Command is relevant, having a way to mb deal with planeswalkers is extremely usfle. it's only a shame one of its modes isnt card draw
Some cards I have some reservations about here are:
# Logic Knot - without cheap cantrips and fetchlands (though Wilds is here) it doesn't seem better than Sinister Sabotage.
# Dovin's Veto - is very good but in a 3-color deck without good mana fixing Negate might be the more consistent and easier to cast card.
# Anguished Unmaking - losing life isn't great in control and that's why I prefer Utter End here.
# Silumgar's Command - 5-mana is a bit much and the modes are rather weak/situational, I'd probably replace it with the more straightforward Utter End as well as a catch-all removal
yeah having a slow land base isn't great but the deck only really contains 8 tapped lands so if you play your turn 1 tapped your normally ok for turn 2 and three
Marit Lage's Slumber, it does a solid azcanter impression, with the constant scrying. and i've yet to have someone not flat out conceded when the token comes in, as if we get to sac it you've got control of the board state and that point.
the two bid advantages of whiter over day is that its less demanding (color mana wise) and it costs one less, this really matters when we get stuck with a slow land hand. (also being able to boardwipe turn three is particularly useful against dredge phoenix and humans, as the budget means the deck struggles to pack a lot of 1 cmc spot removal for the early games. (it also takes out spirit decks as selfless spirit is basically useless)
im still playing around with sb, i'll let you know when i've settled. but 6 mb gy hate seems about right. and being able to cycle spell bomb and use other modes with guile means they are not useless draws against decks that don't use the gy
on the life loss for unmaking, the deck doesn't have to much issues with life gain, guile provides solid amounts as dose absorb (not enough to take out burn, but its normally enough to mean i don't have to worry to much.
pw yeah ive been playing around with the idea, i've just yet to settle on one, fact & fiction deals with card advantage so jace is irrelevant, and i'm not convinced by ob nixilis i this build. dovin seems interesting the active abilty clause seems very solid. i've been playing around with the idea of either Ugin, the Ineffable (for the unconditional removal and card advantage plus it is another wincon )or Liliana Vess who can start up tutore the first 2 turns shes out.
veto not been much of an issue yet and its ability to help against uw control means it has to stay for my meta. i could see training i loic know, its been far from the best counter.
getting to 5 mana happens by turn 5 ost games and Silumgar's Command real value is from ts 2-1 nature. with the way the deck curves it fits for now, but this is probably a flexy slot going forwards
ill probably look at adding kaya into the sb once she rotates out of standard but for now she's out of range.
ive been playing around with adding 2 copys of Shambling Vent as a man land wincon so will test and get back
Tasigur has been awesome as a two of. Normally a late game value engine (rather that a beatsticks) he helps refil the hand while chumping goyfs and bloodghausts. He helps alot in that he's push proof and I don't have to tap out to make home work.
I think 2 is the right number for him
After testing the logic knots I agree, they have been droped.
Astrolabe has been a suprise alstar so uped to 4 mb.
Silumgar's has been constantly strong the only reason it's not a 3-4 of is its lack of card draw as a option.
Ojutai Exemplars was an interesting test but I don't think it completely fits. If the exile was till tend step then I would be perfect but not being able to dodge your own boardwipes and having to tap out for it hurts quite alot. (Although the tapping down of opponents big cretures and lifegain has been pretty solid.)
Slumber has been solid, the scry value from a land into a astrolabe into a thin ice has can be huge, pair this with the increased number of astrolabes and thin ices in the deck and slumber has been a reliable turn 7 with a rare turn 6.
Both veto and absorb have been pretty hard to cast on there respective turns so absorb has been droped and I'm considering alternatives for veto.
I think the deck needs another option over exemplars just to have another relevent body to help things along. Ideally with lifegain protection and card advantage but it's pretty bhard to fine something that fits the whole bill
On another note, Archmage's Charm has gone down in price and can fit nicely in a budget deck so the only issue with it now is how good the mana fixing for it is to cast a UUU spell in an Esper deck with budget mana.
Some other decent budget counterspells are Sinister Sabotage and the more expensive Disallow.
I also really like Prohibit as flexible counterspell and prefer it to Mana Leak for the most part (besides dealing with early Delve cards or Tron bombs).
after playing, gear hulk never really had an issue with targets, as its tends to be turn 7 plus and if you haven't found some instants in that time your pretty much dead anyway. and astrolabes and slumber do some serious work
i have literally just added 2 copies of Angel of Grace to my 75 to test over exemplars. ill see how they go.
another card ive been considering is Ulamog's Nullifier as on thin ices real issue is being ghost quartered or stone rained, which can be debilitating, but if the deck was running paths and with kayas guile as another enabler it might very well be a valuable option that shores up issues with the snow build. im not going to do so now (as i suspect its a bit of a build around) but possibly very viable in the future for a budget snow control.
agreed on azcanter although i suspect they will spike back up over the next 6 months (after rotation) similar to tireless tracker. just managed to get a copy for £5 locally to add in hear.
im a big fan of Creeping Tar Pits they have been a deciding factor more than once. and they are pretty cheap atm so worth picking up.
i think prohibit vs leak is very much a meta choice and as my local paper meta has a lot of tron leak is the one i have to use. (in a phoenix meta i agree i would prefer prohibit) not shore in a hogaak meta as leak can counter him pretty effectively.
similar to search i managed to borrow 2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper for testing and i have to say shes extremely useful, if she had card draw it would be perfect but killing a one drop, vial and most importantly chalice, and woking as incidental gy hate + life gain. and most importantly having a very viable ultimate that dose win games, means she may be the best budget walker for the deck (after rotation drops her price to a reasonable level $4-5)
im my build at least im not sold on charm as the triple blue can be a serious issue, can see it being viable in a 2 color or mono deck (i've already added 3 to my mono u delver list :D)
i've been very impressed with sb damping spheres at the moment as there are alot of fast decks and it really dose stop a large amount of the meta going off. so have increased to 3 in sb.
i've also been very impressed with dovins veto in against control as it allows the deck to effectively fight planeswalkers with i have found to be the hardest thing to answer (especially baby tef which seems to be a almost guaranteed loss if your opponent untaps with it. ) (shame he's so pricey as he fits very nicely in hear. might just be viable as a 2-3 off in your <$200 list?)
i dont know about you but ive been a little underwhelmed by esper charm and very impressed with fact or fiction. im beginning to think that 3 fact 2 charm might be the way to go.
I'm curious about trying the snow route myself but think that a straight UW version might work better giving you a more reliable manabase and also Archmage's Charm as a great tool.
Snapcaster Mage, Celestial Colonnade, Cryptic Command, Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
So I'm trying to build the best "Esper Control" deck which doesn't play these (powerful) cards.
Since it is rotating soon and its price is plummeting (especially online where I play) I've decided to build the deck around Torrential Gearhulk as my bigger/slower Snapcaster Mage and it natually lead to going Esper to abuse Esper Charm which is an extremely potent card in a Control deck and probably the best pairing for Gearhulk besides Cryptic.
# Another soon rotating card which fits right in (and sort-of replaced Cryptic and Logic Knot) is Disallow and the Stifle mode is suprisingly useful.
# Since Gearhulk doesn't really work well with X-draw spells (Pull/Revelation) I've included 1x copy of Dragonlord's Prerogative
(a fancy Opportunity) to refill the hand.
For card advantage the PW's Jace, Unraveler of Secrets and Sorin, Grim Nemesis were chosen and the latter also has the upside of dealing damage and gaining life while occasionally shooting down other PW's so it seemed like a better option than a 2nd copy of Jace.
Jace can also bounce back Gearhulk to recycle its EtB ability.
Other options I considered were: Dovin Baan, Jace, Architect of Thought, Tamiyo, the Moon Sage and Ob Nixilis Reignited (basically a black Jace Unraveler) but they seemed less efficient and more fragile for the most part.
I've also opted not to include the white PW's to avoid WW spells and also focus more on CA than board control with the PW's.
The removal suite is rather standard with: 4x Path to Exile, 3x Fatal Push and 3x Supreme Verdict.
Other options might be: Cast Down/Murderous Cut, Seal Away/Immolating Glare and Settle the Wreckage
(might need to get that one) but these seem most efficient.
The contermagic consists of: 2x Spell Snare, 2x Mana Leak, 3x Remand (mostly a cantrip here) and 2x Disallow.
Might be some room for improvement here though I hesitate going up more 3-mana counters (Disallow/Supreme Will/Dissolve)
and Rune Snag/Condescend are probably not reliable/efficient enough.
For card selection I have: 2x Search for Azcanta and 4x Serum Visions (Opt fits better for playing at instant speed but I prefer to set up my draws).
In the utility land slots I have: 4x Field of Ruin to deal with "Tron" and creature lands and Creeping Tar Pit as one of the finishers of the deck.
I also consider adding a copy of Academy Ruins (dirt cheap online) to replay Gearhulks in the late game (or ones binned early with Search) though I'm not sure what land to replace.
In the SB I have:
# Extirpate (budget Surgical with an upside) for GY's as Rest In Peace doesn't really work with Gearhulk/Azcanta and Nihil Spellbomb isn't an instant for Gearhulk.
# For random permanents there is Detention Sphere though I consider Anguished Unmaking/Utter End in its place for Gearhulk and avoid blowout by Abrupt Decay (or Maelstrom Pulse) though hitting tokens or multiples of the same name is also an upside of Sphere.
Here is the list:
3x Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalker (2)
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Enchantment (2)
2x Search for Azcanta
Instant (20)
4x Path to Exile
3x Fatal Push
2x Spell Snare
3x Remand
2x Mana Leak
2x Disallow
3x Esper Charm
1x Dragonlord's Prerogative
4x Serum Visions
3x Supreme Verdict
Land (26)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
1x Godless Shrine
4x Field of Ruin
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
1x The Scarab God
2x Extirpate
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Negate
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Damping Sphere
2x Stony Silence
2x Detention Sphere
3x Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalker (2)
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Enchantment (2)
2x Search for Azcanta
Instant (24)
4x Opt
3x Fatal Push
2x Spell Snare
4x Cast Down
4x Mana Leak
3x Dissolve
3x Esper Charm
1x Dragonlord's Prerogative
3x Day of Judgment
Land (26)
4x Sunken Hollow
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Isolated Chapel
4x Field of Ruin
4x Island
2x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Negate
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Disenchant
2x Damping Sphere
2x Stony Silence
2x Utter End
The changes are:
-1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, -4x Path to Exile, -3x Remand, -2x Disallow, -4x Serum Visions, -3x Supreme Verdict, -2x Extirpate, -2x Detention Sphere
+1x Ob Nixilis Reignited, +4x Cast Down, +2x Mana Leak, +3x Dissolve, +4x Opt, +3x Day of Judgment, +2x Nihil Spellbomb, +2x Utter End
And a completely reworked manabase which I haven't tested yet so there may be room for improvement here.
The budget deck has 2x Utter End in the SB which is abit slow but probably better for a control deck over the painful (and also more expensive) Anguished Unmaking.
The maindeck has 4x Cast Down which is a decent hard removal spell most of the time (and Push kills all the cheap legends like: Thalia, Baral, G.Teeg) so Tasigur (and Vendilion Clique) is the only problem but it can be taken care of with a wrath or a PW or a Gearhulk.
I chose to keep in Push over Path in the cheaper version to keep the budget down and as it is a better removal spell early on which doesn't ramp the opponent.
Secure the Wastes seems like a good option though it doesn't work with Gearhulk and is a bit pricy for the budget version.
Lingering Souls is another card I considered but the sorcery speed kills it for this deck imho as I don't really want to tap out for anything besides Azcanta in the early game and a PW in the very late game (or after a wrath or not into open mana).
Gideon is a good card but doesn't exactly fit into the instant speed concept of the deck imho and the deck doesn't really have enough white sources to realiably cast it on turn 3 (or even 4).
Now that I think about some more maybe cutting Jace wasn't the right idea as it can come down sooner than Sorin and the Ult' can really help against some control/combo decks and it has some nice synergy with Gearhulk since you can bounce it back to hand to recycle the EtB ability.
Sorin on the other hand offers removal (over bounce) and lifegain while serving as a slow win-con while drawing cards with the +1.
Another card which might be better is Day of Judgment which I consider replacing with a 5-mana wrath with an upside like:
Consume the Meek (narrow but instant speed), Hallowed Burial (gets around indestructible) and Fumigate (gains life).
Is it a good idea or are 5-mana wraths unplayable in modern ?
I've considered Murderous Cut but I'm not sure how realiable it is in a fetchless deck so I went with 4x Cast Down as my "hard" removal.
The next step in upgrading the deck would be Path to Exile of course but I was trying to keep the price as low as possible (while maintaining playability).
Counterbore, Punish Ignorance and Silumgar's Command are interesting options but not really efficient enough for Modern imho.
I do like the new Sinister Sabotage though as it can be a slightly better Dissolve so it could slot in the deck if it remains cheap enough.
Gifts Ungiven is a build around card imho if you want to consistently have good options for "Gift-Piles" so it is for another deck imho.
Search for Azcanta serves the role of GY-filler, card-filterer and late-game draw engine here and it is so important imho that I've kept it in as the most expensive card in the budget build and decided to cut down on other cards.
Timely Reinforcements is good but I think that Blessed Alliance fits the deck better being an instant and an answer to hexproof/indestructible threats.
Nimble Obstructionist isn't bad though a bit fragile for a finisher imho and Ulamog's Nullifier is too conditional (especailly without PtE) and doesn't really attack very well.
Venser's body is mostly irrelevant imho so I'd rather have (an instant) spell instead.
Chromium, the Mutable can be a decent finisher (and make Dragonlord's Prerogative uncounterable) though 7-mana is a bit much.
I haven't really considered this creature lands because Shambling Vent doesn't have evasion and Faerie Conclave only taps for one color and the manabase is pretty tight as it is imho with FoR taking the utility land slots.
I'm not sure if an un-boltable Talrand that makes smaller tokens is what this deck needs with Murmuring Mystic.
With Torrential in the deck I don't really see room for Mission Briefing here as I wouldn't want to cut down on interactive spells and it can't really replace a cheap cantrip like Opt.
The Scarab God is a great fit and I've added it as 1x-of extra finisher in the less-budget build over Disenchant.
Dragonlord Ojutai is pretty good though a bit expensive imho (I'm trying to keep the deck under 200$ and preferebly even less),
as is Archangel Avacyn also at 5-mana and bit higher in price there is also Baneslayer Angel.
Some more potential finishers can be Glyph Keeper (evasion + protection + recursion, but low toughness) and the classic Aetherling.
Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper is interesting but I'm not sure about exposing lands to removal in a deck which plays sweepers and a 5-mana creature without protection or an immediate impact is a tough sell as it is.
Some similar options which I like better are Disciple of the Ring and Ojutai Exemplars (only 4-mana).
Rune Snag is just rather underwhelming before the 2nd copy so i chose Mana Leak for the reliability (and it is also cheaper).
Render Silent's upside doesn't seem particularly great to justify the stricter casting cost (and price) and Logic Knot doesn't seem better than Dissolve in the deck to be honest as I don't really want to exile my GY to flip Search and don't have fetches meaning I'd have to lose some Gearhulk targets
(it costs much more as well).
I'd probably even prefer Condescend to Logic Knot but Dissolve/Sinister Sabotage (or the more expensive Disallow) are better than both of them in this deck imho.
Hieroglyphic Illumination is an option for the Opt slot, as it trades the scry 1 for better Gearhulk value.
Curator of Mysteries can be another 1-mana cantrip option that can be cast as a creature if drawn in the lategame though it lowers the spell count of the deck.
Tasigur, the Golden Fang does seem like a solid option to add more threats post-board, not sure what can be cut for it though.
# The Hallowed Fountain reprint might lower the price low enough to still fit under the budget (around 200$).
# Absorb - is a good option for the 3-mana counter slot be it over Disallow in the more expensive version
(or over Sinister Sabotage in the budget version if it drops in price).
# Warrant // Warden - is a good new removal tool, basically an Azorius Charm with more upside for a control deck.
Torrential can also flashback the Warden half (Serra Sphinx) later in the game which is great value.
It is definitely a consideration for the Cast Down slot in the budget version and maybe deserves a couple of slots in the less budget deck as well.
# Precognitive Perception (a better Jace's Ingenuity) - looks like an interesting draw spell, maybe it is worth replacing Dragonlord's Prerogative though I'm not sure how often casting it as a sorcery is going to happen.
I've used the list to great effect so far with a couple of changes from newer sets you mentioned (Precognitive Perception) and I'm currently experimenting with Secure the Wastes, Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Dragonlord Ojutai but I'm unsure as to how best to fit these into the list. StW seems a great 2-of to utilise as a stall early-game or as a finisher.
Current upgrades from the low to semi-budget lists I am concentrating on are Disallow (love the anti-planeswalker ultimate possibilities over Absorb or Dissolve, the flexibility seems great), Path to Exile and Supreme Verdict. I may even slot a Teferi, Hero of Dominaria or Celestial Colonnade in afterwards should budget allow to give me a taste of bigger things.
Do you think there's anything in WAR that might fit your lists?
first new tefair seems like a solid addition, making day of judgment/other board wipes and the warden for he split card instant speed is nice, as is the lock against other control decks and the stopping of combat tricks. this paired with some solid (almost unconditional) removal with card draw, seems this it should be at least 2 of maybe a 4 of
Narset, Parter of Veils as a sb and maybe mainboard, against phoenix, hollow one, dreadge, control, ect
Dovin's Veto, strict upgrade on sb negates
Ashiok, Dream Render seems like a solid sb option, fo alot of the modern meta
and maybe Dovin, Hand of Control as 1 of mb for stall against aggro, and a general tax effect that hits most decks in modern.
Tyrant's Scorn is one im on the fence about as it deals with anything but it is 2 mana.
with the amount of cheaper effective walkers in the set, i feel like there's a raff capashen ships mage version of the deck that's viable
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
I'm glad you liked it.
Secure the Wastes is a good card though fits less in a build so focused on Torrential Gearhulk and would probably work better with Snapcaster Mage for additional value.
Ojutai is a decent finisher (combo's with Minamo for "true" hexproof Btw) but is probably a bit too slow to generate value as a sorcery speed card that needs to connect.
Tasigur is pretty good though it turns on opposing removal unless you can sandbag it until you can cast and protect it with enough mana up.
Other good finishers are Chromium, the Mutable which is very slow but hard to interact with and The Scarab God (still rather expensive) which can generate an absurd amount of value.
For upgrading I'd prioratize Path to Exile over anything else and then get Supreme Verdict and creature-lands (Creeping Tar Pit or Celestial Colonnade).
From WAR the cards I find most interesting are:
Teferi, Time Raveler (not a cheap card though), Dovin's Veto, Liliana's Triumph (nice edict card, better than Blessed Alliance if the lifegain isn't crucial) and maybe even Despark (could be fringe-playable as a SB card though a bit of a longshot).
Tyrant's Scorn (aka the Smother/Unsummon split card) doesn't really impress me and I'd probably prefer Cast Down as removal most of the time.
Regarding Warrant // Warden I think you could cast either half with Gearhulk as it is technically both instant and sorcery so it can target it and you get to choose which half you want to cast same as was in Standard with Commit // Memory where you could cast either half of the card.
# Prohibit is a decent counterspell with utility both early and late in the game, it will replace Mana Leak in my decks.
# Fact or Fiction is a very good card draw spell, it can easily replace Dragonlord's Prerogative/Precognitive Perception
and maybe a 2nd copy can be squeezed in over some other card.
# Generous Gift as a white Beast Within is an interesting option though not sure if it is worth it over Anguished Unmaking
(or the more expensive but less painfull Utter End).
# Kaya's Guile offers nice flexibility but is probably not as good as Esper Charm.
i may be wrong but i think that Kaya's Guile may be one of the strongest budget(for now) cards in the set. i would run 3 in one esper charm slot and 2 cast down slots, each ability in has is a sb ability, but is a sb bring in against so much of the meta that you may as well run it mb. its no cryptic but its still very good
archmages charm also looks solid (people seemed hyped about it but its not even close to cryptic and i don't think mono u delver has enough tools to be tear 1 so i imagine its price will drop fairly fast)
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
1.
4x Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Enchantment (2)
2x Search for Azcanta
Instant (24)
4x Opt
4x Path to Exile
3x Fatal Push
2x Spell Snare
4x Prohibit
2x Disallow
3x Esper Charm
2x Fact or Fiction
3x Supreme Verdict
Land (26)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Watery Grave
1x Godless Shrine
4x Field of Ruin
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Unmoored Ego
2x Negate
2x Kaya's Guile
2x Damping Sphere
2x Stony Silence
2x Utter End
The changes are:
-4x Serum Visions, -3x Remand, -2x Mana Leak, -1x Dragonlord's Prerogative, -1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
+4x Opt, +4x Prohibit, +2x Fact or Fiction, +1x Torrential Gearhulk
SB: -2x Ceremonious Rejection, -2x Extirpate, -2x Detention Sphere, -1x The Scarab God, -2x Blessed Alliance
+2x Unmoored Ego, +2x Ravenous Trap, +2x Utter End, +1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis, +2x Kaya's Guile
2.
4x Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalker (1)
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Enchantment (2)
2x Search for Azcanta
Instant (24)
4x Opt
3x Fatal Push
2x Spell Snare
4x Cast Down
4x Prohibit
2x Sinister Sabotage
3x Esper Charm
2x Fact or Fiction
3x Day of Judgment
Land (26)
4x Sunken Hollow
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Isolated Chapel
4x Field of Ruin
4x Island
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Unmoored Ego
2x Negate
2x Kaya's Guile
2x Damping Sphere
2x Stony Silence
2x Utter End
1x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
Changes:
-3x Dissolve, -4x Mana Leak, -1x Dragonlord's Prerogative, -1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
+2x Sinister Sabotage, +4x Prohibit, +2x Fact or Fiction, +1x Torrential Gearhulk
SB: -2x Ceremonious Rejection, -1x Nihil Spellbomb, -1x Disenchant, -2x Blessed Alliance
+2x Unmoored Ego, +1x Ashiok, Dream Render, +1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, +2x Kaya's Guile
2x Absorb
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Cast Down
2x Dovin's Veto
2x Esper Charm
2x Fact or Fiction
3x Fatal Push
3x Kaya's Guile
1x Logic Knot
1x Path to Exile
2x Silumgar's Command
2x Boreal Shelf
4x Evolving Wilds
3x Field of Ruin
2x Frost Marsh
5x Snow-Covered Island
4x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Snow-Covered Swamp
Enchantment (4)
2x Marit Lage's Slumber
2x On Thin Ice
3x Arcum's Astrolabe
3x Nihil Spellbomb
Sorcery (3)
3x Dead of Winter
Creature (2)
2x Torrential Gearhulk
the snow synagys help iron out some of issues the more budget versions of the deck have.
the reson im posting it is that i've found Kaya's Guile to be constantly the best card in the deck, every mode is basically something you would sb in rounds 2-3 anyway, and having its versatility is extremely useful in the current meta.
ive was also pleasantly surprised by how often Silumgar's Command is relevant, having a way to mb deal with planeswalkers is extremely usfle. it's only a shame one of its modes isnt card draw
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
How does it work out for you ?
Also, how is Marit Lage's Slumber as the payoff/finisher ?
Dead of Winter is 1-less mana and fits the deck's theme but is it really worth it over something like Day of Judgment ?
I see that you're pre-boarded against GY-decks here with Spellbomb and Guile, what do you use the SB slots for instead ?
You can probably slot in a PW here for some repeatable value, there are some good cheaper options like:
Jace, Architect of Thought, Ob Nixilis Reignited or even Dovin Baan (probably the worst of the three).
Some cards I have some reservations about here are:
# Logic Knot - without cheap cantrips and fetchlands (though Wilds is here) it doesn't seem better than Sinister Sabotage.
# Dovin's Veto - is very good but in a 3-color deck without good mana fixing Negate might be the more consistent and easier to cast card.
# Anguished Unmaking - losing life isn't great in control and that's why I prefer Utter End here.
# Silumgar's Command - 5-mana is a bit much and the modes are rather weak/situational, I'd probably replace it with the more straightforward
Utter End as well as a catch-all removal
Marit Lage's Slumber, it does a solid azcanter impression, with the constant scrying. and i've yet to have someone not flat out conceded when the token comes in, as if we get to sac it you've got control of the board state and that point.
the two bid advantages of whiter over day is that its less demanding (color mana wise) and it costs one less, this really matters when we get stuck with a slow land hand. (also being able to boardwipe turn three is particularly useful against dredge phoenix and humans, as the budget means the deck struggles to pack a lot of 1 cmc spot removal for the early games. (it also takes out spirit decks as selfless spirit is basically useless)
im still playing around with sb, i'll let you know when i've settled. but 6 mb gy hate seems about right. and being able to cycle spell bomb and use other modes with guile means they are not useless draws against decks that don't use the gy
on the life loss for unmaking, the deck doesn't have to much issues with life gain, guile provides solid amounts as dose absorb (not enough to take out burn, but its normally enough to mean i don't have to worry to much.
pw yeah ive been playing around with the idea, i've just yet to settle on one, fact & fiction deals with card advantage so jace is irrelevant, and i'm not convinced by ob nixilis i this build. dovin seems interesting the active abilty clause seems very solid. i've been playing around with the idea of either Ugin, the Ineffable (for the unconditional removal and card advantage plus it is another wincon )or Liliana Vess who can start up tutore the first 2 turns shes out.
veto not been much of an issue yet and its ability to help against uw control means it has to stay for my meta. i could see training i loic know, its been far from the best counter.
getting to 5 mana happens by turn 5 ost games and Silumgar's Command real value is from ts 2-1 nature. with the way the deck curves it fits for now, but this is probably a flexy slot going forwards
ill probably look at adding kaya into the sb once she rotates out of standard but for now she's out of range.
ive been playing around with adding 2 copys of Shambling Vent as a man land wincon so will test and get back
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
This is now my current list
1x Cast Down
2x Dovin's Veto
2x Esper Charm
2x Fact or Fiction
2x Fatal Push
3x Kaya's Guile
2x Mana Leak
2x Silumgar's Command
Creature (6)
2x Ojutai Exemplars
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Torrential Gearhulk
Land (24)
2x Boreal Shelf
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Evolving Wilds
2x Field of Ruin
2x Frost Marsh
4x Snow-Covered Island
4x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Snow-Covered Swamp
2x Marit Lage's Slumber
3x On Thin Ice
Sorcery (3)
3x Dead of Winter
Artifact (6)
4x Arcum's Astrolabe
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Ashiok, Dream Render
3x Damping Sphere
1x Dead of Winter
2x Detention Sphere
2x Dovin's Veto
1x On Thin Ice
2x Rebuild
2x Settle the Wreckage
Updates and info
Tasigur has been awesome as a two of. Normally a late game value engine (rather that a beatsticks) he helps refil the hand while chumping goyfs and bloodghausts. He helps alot in that he's push proof and I don't have to tap out to make home work.
I think 2 is the right number for him
After testing the logic knots I agree, they have been droped.
Astrolabe has been a suprise alstar so uped to 4 mb.
Silumgar's has been constantly strong the only reason it's not a 3-4 of is its lack of card draw as a option.
Ojutai Exemplars was an interesting test but I don't think it completely fits. If the exile was till tend step then I would be perfect but not being able to dodge your own boardwipes and having to tap out for it hurts quite alot. (Although the tapping down of opponents big cretures and lifegain has been pretty solid.)
Slumber has been solid, the scry value from a land into a astrolabe into a thin ice has can be huge, pair this with the increased number of astrolabes and thin ices in the deck and slumber has been a reliable turn 7 with a rare turn 6.
Both veto and absorb have been pretty hard to cast on there respective turns so absorb has been droped and I'm considering alternatives for veto.
I think the deck needs another option over exemplars just to have another relevent body to help things along. Ideally with lifegain protection and card advantage but it's pretty bhard to fine something that fits the whole bill
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
Some other high-end options could be: Angel of Grace, Dragonlord Ojutai, Chromium, the Mutable (7-mana is a lot though) or a PW (or 2x) like:
Sorin, Grim Nemesis, Gideon Jura, Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, Ob Nixilis Reignited or Jace, Architect of Thought.
On another note, Archmage's Charm has gone down in price and can fit nicely in a budget deck so the only issue with it now is how good the mana fixing for it is to cast a UUU spell in an Esper deck with budget mana.
Some other decent budget counterspells are Sinister Sabotage and the more expensive Disallow.
I also really like Prohibit as flexible counterspell and prefer it to Mana Leak for the most part (besides dealing with early Delve cards or Tron bombs).
Also, the prices of many cards (mainly Azcanta) have gone down enough that my 200$ budget version of the deck can be further upgraded with either:
Path to Exile (over a combination of Fatal Push and Cast Down) or Creeping Tar Pit (over a couple of lands) or Settle the Wreckage/Supreme Verdict over Day of Judgment/Hallowed Burial.
i have literally just added 2 copies of Angel of Grace to my 75 to test over exemplars. ill see how they go.
another card ive been considering is Ulamog's Nullifier as on thin ices real issue is being ghost quartered or stone rained, which can be debilitating, but if the deck was running paths and with kayas guile as another enabler it might very well be a valuable option that shores up issues with the snow build. im not going to do so now (as i suspect its a bit of a build around) but possibly very viable in the future for a budget snow control.
agreed on azcanter although i suspect they will spike back up over the next 6 months (after rotation) similar to tireless tracker. just managed to get a copy for £5 locally to add in hear.
im a big fan of Creeping Tar Pits they have been a deciding factor more than once. and they are pretty cheap atm so worth picking up.
i think prohibit vs leak is very much a meta choice and as my local paper meta has a lot of tron leak is the one i have to use. (in a phoenix meta i agree i would prefer prohibit) not shore in a hogaak meta as leak can counter him pretty effectively.
similar to search i managed to borrow 2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper for testing and i have to say shes extremely useful, if she had card draw it would be perfect but killing a one drop, vial and most importantly chalice, and woking as incidental gy hate + life gain. and most importantly having a very viable ultimate that dose win games, means she may be the best budget walker for the deck (after rotation drops her price to a reasonable level $4-5)
im my build at least im not sold on charm as the triple blue can be a serious issue, can see it being viable in a 2 color or mono deck (i've already added 3 to my mono u delver list :D)
i've been very impressed with sb damping spheres at the moment as there are alot of fast decks and it really dose stop a large amount of the meta going off. so have increased to 3 in sb.
i've also been very impressed with dovins veto in against control as it allows the deck to effectively fight planeswalkers with i have found to be the hardest thing to answer (especially baby tef which seems to be a almost guaranteed loss if your opponent untaps with it. ) (shame he's so pricey as he fits very nicely in hear. might just be viable as a 2-3 off in your <$200 list?)
i dont know about you but ive been a little underwhelmed by esper charm and very impressed with fact or fiction. im beginning to think that 3 fact 2 charm might be the way to go.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
Here is my take on this concept:
2x Gideon of the Trials
1x Gideon Jura
1x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Enchantment (8)
4x On Thin Ice
2x Seal Away
2x Marit Lage's Slumber
Artifact (4)
4x Arcum's Astrolabe
Instant (14)
2x Condemn
4x Prohibit
4x Archmage's Charm
2x Absorb
2x Fact or Fiction
1x Timely Reinforcements
3x Fumigate
Land (25)
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Prairie Stream
3x Port Town
2x Boreal Shelf
6x Snow-Covered Island
6x Snow-Covered Plains
4x Dovin's Veto
2x Ashiok, Dream Render
1x Absorb
2x Damping Sphere
2x Detention Sphere
2x Disenchant
1x Cleansing Nova
1x Lyra Dawnbringer
I'm not sure how many snow permanents I need for Marit Lage's Slumber to be really good.
Also, is Arcum's Astrolabe even really necessary or should I just play Opt (or Serum Visions) instead and add 4x more basic lands over some duals
(like 3x Port Town and 1x Prairie Stream) ?
The deck is very lite on graveyard hate with only Ashiok so this is probably one if its main weaknesses.