I really dont see the point on going black as the third color. I think that blue is the right one for 3 reasons:
1. It have the digging
2. It have the control/protection spells
3. Its the color of 2 main enchantments (Meishin and Dovescape, this one blue/white mana)
Right now I'm testing a version with 3-4 Oblivion Ring as board control spell, 4 Remand for control/delay and Sleight of hand replacing Serum Visions cause Sleight is better on key turns as its not a blind draw and maybe you can die waiting next turn draw to win from the Scry 2.
I like See Beyond, but I dont like it with Peer. Its necessary a one mana digging to play soon or to play later and ensure mana to play digging + Ideal same turn.
What I really miss is a Transmute spell for 7!! hehe
Any sizeable flyer will kill you through that setup. FotD + unlife means even emrakuel can't kill you, except for annihilator of course but just sac lands and... I'm digressing. Burn is also severely nerfed here, to the point where I wouldn't call it a threat, leaving Dovescape as more of a final safety net. As well as hate protection. It isn't necessarily needed but you certainly want it in play. But it's still only worth one slot. And in any case, I've had all of one game where I got Dovescape stuck in-hand. See beyond really does work.
2 creatures played entirely for their hand cycling effects will
A:never be missed when removed
B:never be an alternate win con
And also:
If anyone can give me a legitimate situation where meishin/souls betrayal + FotD is better than unlife + FotD I'll give you twice as many far more common scenarios where unlife is superior in every way.
And don't say infect... That's honestly not about to happen in modern. And it can still be pretty easily handled.
Just picked up the frame of the deck and I am enjoying playtesting it so far. I'm using St. Tobias's from the mainpage. I'm just trying to figure out how to fit it more ramp like Pentad Prism and Lotus Blossom.
@Nukeaholic - I was wondering if you would share your deck with us.
I've been tinkering with the counters for a while but cant really settle on anything. I love barley's use of IoK and have been considering using those as replacements
Any sizeable flyer will kill you through that setup. FotD + unlife means even emrakuel can't kill you, except for annihilator of course but just sac lands and... I'm digressing. Burn is also severely nerfed here, to the point where I wouldn't call it a threat, leaving Dovescape as more of a final safety net. As well as hate protection. It isn't necessarily needed but you certainly want it in play. But it's still only worth one slot. And in any case, I've had all of one game where I got Dovescape stuck in-hand. See beyond really does work.
2 creatures played entirely for their hand cycling effects will
A:never be missed when removed
B:never be an alternate win con
And also:
If anyone can give me a legitimate situation where meishin/souls betrayal + FotD is better than unlife + FotD I'll give you twice as many far more common scenarios where unlife is superior in every way.
There is still O Ring to get if they have one big flier.
I don't see the point in adding creatures if you dont expect to win with it and are only using it as a 3-mana cycler. Is there no other blue spell with an effect similar to See Beyond? Have you tried Crystal Ball in that spot? It looks better than Clique thanks to its continuous use, even useful after Ideal has resolved (not drawing your enchantments).
I'll admit I was dismissive to Phyexian Unlife faster than I should have been. It works incredibly well with Form. I missed that the first time.
It's a mistake to call Dovescape only a safety net. The reason Unlife is such a secure win with Form is that you know they are only capable of pumping out creatures, which cannot kill you.
I probably can drop the Night and replace it with Unlife in that sequence. That would open up an additional slot in the 60.
Edit: I'll probably just make this change.
-1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
+1 Phyrexian Unlife
That means I'll have 2-of Dovescape, Form, and Unlife with 1 O-Ring. That's a very safe enchantment package, don't you agree?
I agree with you on all points
And 2 Dovescape is fine, it's just that 1 is fine as well, and in a deck with so few "open" card slots I'd suggest just one. And yes it is more of a hard(er) lock than a safety net, but there are still plenty of times when you won't need it. Just my 2 cents
And as much as I'd love to use crystal ball over clique ( aaaarg my wallet ), I like having the option to remove their counters just before I untap and drop ideal, it's also nice to have as a flying blocker if you're in a pinch.
Thanks, Nuke. Timely Reinforcements, that's exactly what I needed. It should be infinitely better than Lightning Helix. I was running that and Pyroclasm mainboard. I should be able to find room for the Pentad Prisms now.
For your counters, why not Remand? Pricey uncommon, but stalls for a turn and gives you a card. Also, if you're playing against counter Dispel in the SB isn't a bad option.
glad i could help =)
not a fan of remand tbh, but thats just me. and counters aren't really a problem, they have to tap-out sometime. that or i just remove their counter w/ clique, or protect w/ boseiju. then there's the fact that many use mana leak as a hard counter, which isnt that hard to play around.
Has anyone tried a build that focuses on green to use Explore, Ravnica bounce lands (like Dimir Aqueduct type lands), Kodoma's Reach, Cultivate and Awakening Zone instead of Lotus Bloom and Pentad Prism? I just dislike that so many things can deal with Bloom or Prism, such as bouncing/countering Bloom (since they can predict it), using artifact/enchant removal, Oblivion Ring, Pridemage, etc. Just grabbing lands instead of using artifact mana would help more reliably cast the enchantments other than Ideal.
On another note, using Confiscate is a blast. Right after they drop a Karn, there's nothing quite like using Confiscate on it- then you can exile a Tron land and it prevents them from playing another Karn, unless they just want to kill your Karn which you stole from them. It's not always necessary, but sometimes it's a game-winner.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You like Super Smash Bros.? Melee or Brawl? Check this out! http://projectm.dantarion.com/
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
I think I've had someone shoot my prism like one time. Whatever MB arty hate people have, they won't waste it, or the time required, on a prism or even a bloom. Not to say green ramp is bad though ( it is a tad slower ), they each have their pros and cons, go with what you prefer.
I started the deck playing with Phyrexian Unlife a month ago I guess and ended quiting it, but mainly cause I didnt realized about its rules!
Now I can see the power of it connected wit Form of the dragon. Its almost impossible to loose with it, the only card that can win this combo is Emrakul and in 2 attacks. This is why I use Blood Moon MD, to retard the max time its play.
Now I'm playing the enchants inthe following order if will not die next turn from Ideal, Dovescape + Unlife + Form.
A question, how people are reacting about Unlife + Form?? They realize that you wont go from zero to poison in the same attack? In MWS I can see a lot of "Player lost"....hehe, and in Cockatrice some quits and some explanations to made!
Ooh, so that's the "combo" everyone's been so excited about. I thought it was just "gain 5 life" but it's really an infinite-fog unless they have a bunch of burn.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You like Super Smash Bros.? Melee or Brawl? Check this out! http://projectm.dantarion.com/
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
Yes...And that is why you get Dovescape, so you will never be burned...hehe
Usually get Dovescape first, so they cant counter the Ideal copy at your upkeep. The order of the enchantments you get vary according to your opponent deck, cards and skill.
If you know they have CREATURES the destroy enchantment go first get a Privileged Position or Greater Auramancy and after the Unlife to dont die, Form and Dovescape.
I always like to put Dovescape in play first, its safer for the combo and sometime you can chose between Dovescape and Blood Moon, cause according to their lands they will have the same effect, and sometimes better with Moon (no spells and creatures ).
Yeah, my sequence of enchantments is what Equinox posted. It's close to how it was before with Unlife replacing Night. Emrakul can still beat us due to the Annihilator 6 trigger. And since they Time Walk after casting him, we can't get the O Ring to stop him. Oh well though - with Blood Moon out, there is no way they'll get up to 15 mana. And if you play Pithing Needle in the board, you can shut off Exp Map so they struggle to assemble Tron before we resolve Ideal.
If you guys are set on playing counters, are you using them on their threats? If they are a counterspell deck, how do you use your counters? You need to protect Ideal, which requires 9 mana, minimum. A smart blue player will not counter anything you play until it's going to beat them. That'd be Ideal, Dovescape, or Form. You need something like IoK to proactively get rid of their counters or you're stressing yourself unnecessarily to get two more mana on your critical turn. If somebody would address this, because I've literally made this point four times and everyone seems more comfortable ignoring it, rather than explaining their reasoning behind playing counterspells.
You don't need counters for aggro, because you race them easily with Timely Reinforcements. You don't need counters against combo if you use discard, because you select their most important spell and discard it. With counters, a good combo player is going to try to bait you. Having full access to their hand removes that option since you have full knowledge of what they're holding. And I already set that parity against control decks is terrible. They'll have counters than you, so are you just hoping to get a lucky draw?
well i beat combo no problem, its much easier to "combo" out when you only need one spell.
and i've already agreed with you on IoK many times, it's certainly better than counters, but stretching to a 4th color is a pain. thats why i opt for clique. if there's any other in-color hand disruption i'd love to know. as of now im actually running spot removal intead of counters... =/
Yeah it wasn't just directed at you, Nuke. I see a lot of lists just toss in counters since blue is a main color. Blue is in there for dig, guys. That's it. [edit]Clique can also be used since it can cycle enchantments and protect Ideal preemptively. That's crucial to our protection.[/edit]
I really think you have to use City of Brass and Gemstone Mine if you play IoK. And I showed the percentages a few pages ago to back that up. You have over 90% odds to hit the colors you need in your opening hand, even with black in the deck.
Here's are a couple questions I have for you, Nuke. Are you using the one Lotus Bloom because it's a bad topdeck? And have you had troubles with getting enough mana?
This is a list I have been having some success with. I played Ideal way back in the Extended days... and decided to bring to cards back out after deciding to break into Modern now after my strict Standard/Legacy phase.
Good list henry, I only dont like 12 digging spells, seems a little too much for me, but if its doing well for you, keep it. I like a little more control, cards or board control so I play -2 See Beyond +2 Oblivion Ring.
Guys, I think that a solution to Emrakul is Nevermore, nice tech! hehe....the only problem is those decks that play it via Through the breach, so will need Dovescape to avoid it.
How is Nevermore a better answer for Emrakul than Oblivion Ring?
O-Ring should already be maindecked, answers Emrakul immediately, and actually has useful applications in literally every other matchup short of Past in Flames Storm.
Why search for answers to problems that don't exist?
How is Nevermore a better answer for Emrakul than Oblivion Ring?
O-Ring should already be maindecked, answers Emrakul immediately, and actually has useful applications in literally every other matchup short of Past in Flames Storm.
Why search for answers to problems that don't exist?
Wow! Read Emrakul, the Aeons Torn text mate. It have PROTECTION FROM COLORED SPELLS, so you CAN'T O-Ring it, take control of it, or anything else against it. The only thing you can do is prohibiting Emrakul to enter the battlefield.
Plus it have Flying, as you know (or may know) and Form will not affect him. For now, the best answer seems Nevermore.
You can O-Ring an Emrakul. It's a triggered ability, not a colored spell targeting him, so it works. The problem is when they hard cast him and they Time Walk so you get Annihilator 6'd before O Ring has a chance to work.
You can O-Ring an Emrakul. It's a triggered ability, not a colored spell targeting him, so it works. The problem is when they hard cast him and they Time Walk so you get Annihilator 6'd before O Ring has a chance to work.
If you're staring down a hardcast Emrakul, you have more pressing issues with your deck than the situation you've found yourself in. In no way, shape, or form should you ever allow such a stupid amount of mana to be generated against you under any circumstances outside of moronic hideaway/Geosurge jank.
...not even commenting on the ignorant auto-reply before you, either.
1. It have the digging
2. It have the control/protection spells
3. Its the color of 2 main enchantments (Meishin and Dovescape, this one blue/white mana)
Right now I'm testing a version with 3-4 Oblivion Ring as board control spell, 4 Remand for control/delay and Sleight of hand replacing Serum Visions cause Sleight is better on key turns as its not a blind draw and maybe you can die waiting next turn draw to win from the Scry 2.
I like See Beyond, but I dont like it with Peer. Its necessary a one mana digging to play soon or to play later and ensure mana to play digging + Ideal same turn.
What I really miss is a Transmute spell for 7!! hehe
Moderm - Mono blue Tron and Eldrazi variants
Legacy - Building Eldrazi Stompy
My team for ever ever:
Sport Club Internacional
www.internacional.com.br
2 creatures played entirely for their hand cycling effects will
A:never be missed when removed
B:never be an alternate win con
And also:
If anyone can give me a legitimate situation where meishin/souls betrayal + FotD is better than unlife + FotD I'll give you twice as many far more common scenarios where unlife is superior in every way.
And don't say infect... That's honestly not about to happen in modern. And it can still be pretty easily handled.
@Nukeaholic - I was wondering if you would share your deck with us.
Thanks
EDH:
:symw::symw::symw:Darien:symw::symw::symw:
:symr::symr::symr:Lovisa:symr::symr::symr:
:symu::symw::symg:Rafiq:symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg:Karrthus:symb::symr::symg:
:symr::symw::symb:Kaalia:symr::symw::symb:
I'm glad your enjoying the deck so far and I'd be happy to share my list
3 arid Mesa
3 scalding tarn
1 sacred foundry
1 steam vents
2 rugged prairie
2 cascade bluffs
1 mystic gate
1 mistveil plains
1 plains
2 island
2 mountain
2 horizon canopy
1 boseiju, who shelters all
Other
4 enduring ideal
2 Form of the dragon
2 Phyrexian unlife
1 Dovescape
1 oblivion ring
4 Pentad prism
1 lotus bloom
4 seething song
4 see beyond
4 peer through depths
4 timely reinforcements
2 vendilion clique
1 silence
1 condescend
3 delay
1 nevermore
2 blood moon
4 leyline of sanctity
2 greater auramancy
2 copy enchantment
3 slagstorm
1 pyroclasm
I've been tinkering with the counters for a while but cant really settle on anything. I love barley's use of IoK and have been considering using those as replacements
There is still O Ring to get if they have one big flier.
I don't see the point in adding creatures if you dont expect to win with it and are only using it as a 3-mana cycler. Is there no other blue spell with an effect similar to See Beyond? Have you tried Crystal Ball in that spot? It looks better than Clique thanks to its continuous use, even useful after Ideal has resolved (not drawing your enchantments).
I'll admit I was dismissive to Phyexian Unlife faster than I should have been. It works incredibly well with Form. I missed that the first time.
It's a mistake to call Dovescape only a safety net. The reason Unlife is such a secure win with Form is that you know they are only capable of pumping out creatures, which cannot kill you.
I probably can drop the Night and replace it with Unlife in that sequence. That would open up an additional slot in the 60.
Edit: I'll probably just make this change.
-1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
+1 Phyrexian Unlife
That means I'll have 2-of Dovescape, Form, and Unlife with 1 O-Ring. That's a very safe enchantment package, don't you agree?
And 2 Dovescape is fine, it's just that 1 is fine as well, and in a deck with so few "open" card slots I'd suggest just one. And yes it is more of a hard(er) lock than a safety net, but there are still plenty of times when you won't need it. Just my 2 cents
And as much as I'd love to use crystal ball over clique ( aaaarg my wallet ), I like having the option to remove their counters just before I untap and drop ideal, it's also nice to have as a flying blocker if you're in a pinch.
For your counters, why not Remand? Pricey uncommon, but stalls for a turn and gives you a card. Also, if you're playing against counter Dispel in the SB isn't a bad option.
EDH:
:symw::symw::symw:Darien:symw::symw::symw:
:symr::symr::symr:Lovisa:symr::symr::symr:
:symu::symw::symg:Rafiq:symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg:Karrthus:symb::symr::symg:
:symr::symw::symb:Kaalia:symr::symw::symb:
not a fan of remand tbh, but thats just me. and counters aren't really a problem, they have to tap-out sometime. that or i just remove their counter w/ clique, or protect w/ boseiju. then there's the fact that many use mana leak as a hard counter, which isnt that hard to play around.
On another note, using Confiscate is a blast. Right after they drop a Karn, there's nothing quite like using Confiscate on it- then you can exile a Tron land and it prevents them from playing another Karn, unless they just want to kill your Karn which you stole from them. It's not always necessary, but sometimes it's a game-winner.
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
Now I can see the power of it connected wit Form of the dragon. Its almost impossible to loose with it, the only card that can win this combo is Emrakul and in 2 attacks. This is why I use Blood Moon MD, to retard the max time its play.
Now I'm playing the enchants inthe following order if will not die next turn from Ideal, Dovescape + Unlife + Form.
A question, how people are reacting about Unlife + Form?? They realize that you wont go from zero to poison in the same attack? In MWS I can see a lot of "Player lost"....hehe, and in Cockatrice some quits and some explanations to made!
Moderm - Mono blue Tron and Eldrazi variants
Legacy - Building Eldrazi Stompy
My team for ever ever:
Sport Club Internacional
www.internacional.com.br
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
Usually get Dovescape first, so they cant counter the Ideal copy at your upkeep. The order of the enchantments you get vary according to your opponent deck, cards and skill.
If you know they have CREATURES the destroy enchantment go first get a Privileged Position or Greater Auramancy and after the Unlife to dont die, Form and Dovescape.
I always like to put Dovescape in play first, its safer for the combo and sometime you can chose between Dovescape and Blood Moon, cause according to their lands they will have the same effect, and sometimes better with Moon (no spells and creatures ).
Moderm - Mono blue Tron and Eldrazi variants
Legacy - Building Eldrazi Stompy
My team for ever ever:
Sport Club Internacional
www.internacional.com.br
If you guys are set on playing counters, are you using them on their threats? If they are a counterspell deck, how do you use your counters? You need to protect Ideal, which requires 9 mana, minimum. A smart blue player will not counter anything you play until it's going to beat them. That'd be Ideal, Dovescape, or Form. You need something like IoK to proactively get rid of their counters or you're stressing yourself unnecessarily to get two more mana on your critical turn. If somebody would address this, because I've literally made this point four times and everyone seems more comfortable ignoring it, rather than explaining their reasoning behind playing counterspells.
You don't need counters for aggro, because you race them easily with Timely Reinforcements. You don't need counters against combo if you use discard, because you select their most important spell and discard it. With counters, a good combo player is going to try to bait you. Having full access to their hand removes that option since you have full knowledge of what they're holding. And I already set that parity against control decks is terrible. They'll have counters than you, so are you just hoping to get a lucky draw?
and i've already agreed with you on IoK many times, it's certainly better than counters, but stretching to a 4th color is a pain. thats why i opt for clique. if there's any other in-color hand disruption i'd love to know. as of now im actually running spot removal intead of counters... =/
I really think you have to use City of Brass and Gemstone Mine if you play IoK. And I showed the percentages a few pages ago to back that up. You have over 90% odds to hit the colors you need in your opening hand, even with black in the deck.
Here's are a couple questions I have for you, Nuke. Are you using the one Lotus Bloom because it's a bad topdeck? And have you had troubles with getting enough mana?
i know i could probably fit it in with the proper lands, but i just dislike those two lands so much. its nothing rational, i just dont like them.
yeah its a useless topdeck past turn one.
and my mana has been fine so far *knock on wood
x4 Enduring Ideal
x4 Remand
x4 Sleight of Hand
x4 See Beyond
x4 Peer Through Depths
x4 Seething Song
x4 Lotus Bloom
x2 Form of the Dragon
x2 Dovescape
x1 Privileged Position
x1 Phyrexian Unlife
x1 Meishin, The Mind Cage
x1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
x1 Volition Reins
x1 Oblivion Ring
x2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
x2 Scalding Tarn
x2 Arid Mesa
x2 Hallowed Fountain
x2 Sacred Foundry
x2 Steam Vents
x2 Mountain
x2 Island
x2 Plains
x1 Mystic Gate
x1 Rugged Prairie
x1 Cascade Bluffs
x1 Mistveil Plains
Sideboard:
x4 Silence
x4 Leyline of Sanctity
x1 Volcanic Fallout
x1 Firespout
x1 Lightmine Field
x1 Teferi's Moat
x1 Karma
x1 Aura of Silence
x1 Greater Auramancy
Guys, I think that a solution to Emrakul is Nevermore, nice tech! hehe....the only problem is those decks that play it via Through the breach, so will need Dovescape to avoid it.
Moderm - Mono blue Tron and Eldrazi variants
Legacy - Building Eldrazi Stompy
My team for ever ever:
Sport Club Internacional
www.internacional.com.br
O-Ring should already be maindecked, answers Emrakul immediately, and actually has useful applications in literally every other matchup short of Past in Flames Storm.
Why search for answers to problems that don't exist?
Wow! Read Emrakul, the Aeons Torn text mate. It have PROTECTION FROM COLORED SPELLS, so you CAN'T O-Ring it, take control of it, or anything else against it. The only thing you can do is prohibiting Emrakul to enter the battlefield.
Plus it have Flying, as you know (or may know) and Form will not affect him. For now, the best answer seems Nevermore.
Moderm - Mono blue Tron and Eldrazi variants
Legacy - Building Eldrazi Stompy
My team for ever ever:
Sport Club Internacional
www.internacional.com.br
If you're staring down a hardcast Emrakul, you have more pressing issues with your deck than the situation you've found yourself in. In no way, shape, or form should you ever allow such a stupid amount of mana to be generated against you under any circumstances outside of moronic hideaway/Geosurge jank.
...not even commenting on the ignorant auto-reply before you, either.
Text:
When Oblivion Ring enters the battlefield, exile another target nonland permanent.
If I'm wrong please tell me why and and I'll agree that O-ring is a good answer.
Moderm - Mono blue Tron and Eldrazi variants
Legacy - Building Eldrazi Stompy
My team for ever ever:
Sport Club Internacional
www.internacional.com.br