Austere command is in there for late game, played it against some mono white control, strangely had trouble there (the enchants proved to be a problem), imagine artifacts will be in the mix so it works against that (albeit takes out AEther vial and the swords), Patrician's scorn for the same reason, hard cast a knight (pick one) and enchant wipe for free, not bad. Only would pose a problem if your running honor of the pure (the build I'm testing doesn't use it).
Hi Nabbydian,
I wasn't thinking about sideboard/not sideboard when I wrote up the suggestions. I simply looked at the primer topics, and placed creatures in the appropriate bucket. You can shuffle the creatures to different topics as you deem fit.
I was struggling to put the non-knight creatures in the right categories other than the obvious maindeck choices such as Pridgemage and Relic-warder. Your comments definitely help in this aspect.
On reorganising the primer - I have also decided the GW knights should be the optimized build with 2 variants:
Defensive aggro with GSZ toolbox
Ramp Aggro with Hierach, Pridemage & Sigil Paladin
The 3rd list will be a Mono-W knights with & without Honor of the Pure.
Austere command is in there for late game, played it against some mono white control, strangely had trouble there (the enchants proved to be a problem), imagine artifacts will be in the mix so it works against that (albeit takes out AEther vial and the swords), Patrician's scorn for the same reason, hard cast a knight (pick one) and enchant wipe for free, not bad. Only would pose a problem if your running honor of the pure (the build I'm testing doesn't use it).
Any thoughts?
I added in your Maindeck from an earlier post and also edited your sideboard into it so I can get a full picture of your deck with sideboard. I'm not an expert on this coding stuffs but i presume your deck tag didn't work initally because you added card tags within the deck tag and also put your card quantity behind the card name. I remove the card tag and also shifted the quantity to the beginning of the card name and it works.
You can click "Quote" and a text box will pop up showing you how i did the deck tag for this particular post. Hope this helps.
For the sideboard - Maybe you can briefly explain what you expect to see in your meta?
I never see anyone play Austere Command but i'm worried about removing your own Oblivion Ring against Mono-White Control. Vial is probably useless by the time you have the mana to cast Command. Why not try Aura of Silence instead is enchantments are a major problem? For the late game against other matchups, Elsepth should be the card you are looking at when the board stalls.
I was struggling to put the non-knight creatures in the right categories other than the obvious maindeck choices such as Pridgemage and Relic-warder. Your comments definitely help in this aspect.
On reorganising the primer - I have also decided the GW knights should be the optimized build with 2 variants:
Defensive aggro with GSZ toolbox
Ramp Aggro with Hierach, Pridemage & Sigil Paladin
The 3rd list will be a Mono-W knights with & without Honor of the Pure.
Sounds good.
Now, I remember somebody (you?) mentioning earlier in this thread that if you include GSZ, the deck starts looking like GW Maverick. Is that ok to you? My concern is that if we share too many cards with the GW Maverick build, I think some people will just use the GW Maverick decklist.
Lastly, on your first post that created this thread, I see these: DECKLISTS AVAILABLE:
Mono w Knights - Modern WW Knights
gw Knights - Selesnya's Modern Knights
I think that needs to be revamped, since you are adding new deck suggestions. I couldn't actually find "Selesnya's Modern Knights" decklist in this thread at all.
Now, I remember somebody (you?) mentioning earlier in this thread that if you include GSZ, the deck starts looking like GW Maverick. Is that ok to you? My concern is that if we share too many cards with the GW Maverick build, I think some people will just use the GW Maverick decklist.
Hmm, i'm thinking of only playing 2 pieces of GSZ in the Ramp Aggro Knights. I share your concern also on being too similar to GW Maverick. Honestly speaking if we go for 4 GSZ and remove Aether Vial then it is better off going for Maverick than Knights.
Reason on playing 2x GSZ is because the deck can only tutor Pridemage and Kotr and by playing 4 we should be able to draw them. White is still the dominant color here and GSZ is more like a backup plan rather than the main strategy.
I also don't want to pack the hand with too much Zeniths which might reduce the overall pace. How many would you play in your list?
Lastly, on your first post that created this thread, I see these: DECKLISTS AVAILABLE:
Mono w Knights - Modern WW Knights
gw Knights - Selesnya's Modern Knights
I think that needs to be revamped, since you are adding new deck suggestions. I couldn't actually find "Selesnya's Modern Knights" decklist in this thread at all.
Opps..my bad...I forgot to edit the title of the GW decklist in the second post.
Selesnya's Modern Knights should be the existing GW decklist, I named Selesnya because it has Temple Garden & i wanted to differentiate it from my GW legacy knights.
The reason I would only choose 1x Green Sun's Zenith is that I don't have enough green creatures that GSZ can tutor. For my deck (you will make different decisions with your deck and meta), I want my Knights on the battlefield quickly via Aether Vial or Noble Hierarch.
The way I view GSZ is that if I'm going to tutor a green creature with GSZ, I want to tutor a green creature that will mess with my opponent the moment it enters the battlefield. Fetching Knight of the Reliquary does not do this for me, because I cannot tap to use its ability on the turn I cast GSZ, so it's probably going to be destroyed by my opponent. Fetching Noble Hierarch does not do this for me either. Therefore, GSZ is really only tutoring for Qasali Pridemage in my deck, of which I only have 3 in my deck. So, GSZ is not useful in my deck, so I would include 1 GSZ at most.
Opps..my bad...I forgot to edit the title of the GW decklist in the second post.
Selesnya's Modern Knights should be the existing GW decklist, I named Selesnya because it has Temple Garden & i wanted to differentiate it from my GW legacy knights.
Ah, that is why I couldn't find it. You did not title that GW deck as "Selesnya's Modern Knights," so I thought it was another GW Knights deck.
I would drop my Sun Titan and swap it for one GSZ.
I'm not sure, I might want to keep Sun Titan. It really depends on how the deck plays out and I have no experience on the Aggro-Ramp Knights as yet. Previously I have Elspeth as the bomb so if you don't have both Elspeth and Titan the deck loses it's "monster" card.
On the other hand taking Titan out actually fit into the deck strategy because when you start cycling lands with KoTR I do not think you will be able to get to 6 mana even with Hierarch around.
The reason I would only choose 1x Green Sun's Zenith is that I don't have enough green creatures that GSZ can tutor. For my deck (you will make different decisions with your deck and meta), I want my Knights on the battlefield quickly via Aether Vial or Noble Hierarch.
The way I view GSZ is that if I'm going to tutor a green creature with GSZ, I want to tutor a green creature that will mess with my opponent the moment it enters the battlefield. Fetching Knight of the Reliquary does not do this for me, because I cannot tap to use its ability on the turn I cast GSZ, so it's probably going to be destroyed by my opponent. Fetching Noble Hierarch does not do this for me either. Therefore, GSZ is really only tutoring for Qasali Pridemage in my deck, of which I only have 3 in my deck. So, GSZ is not useful in my deck, so I would include 1 GSZ at most.
Yup, that is why i would only go with 2 GSZ instead of a playset, I was thinking it should be relatively easy for you to get to 4 mana(3 lands & 1 Hierarch) and playing one more GSZ would increase your odds of getting it.
With 4 PtE, 3 Pridemage and 2 GSZ I feel we can cut down on an O-Ring for flexbility in the form of an additional GSZ.
Below is the list I would go for, it's exactly same as your second list other then the following changes:
Now is a really bad time to buy shocks(or any modern staples :rolleyes:)...hope you are able to get Temple Garden at a decent price - well you only need one anyway ;).
Oh and I just realised the thread count for Modern Knights has exceeded it's Legacy counterpart...
Now is a really bad time to buy shocks(or any modern staples :rolleyes:)...hope you are able to get Temple Garden at a decent price - well you only need one anyway ;).
Oh and I just realised the thread count for Modern Knights has exceeded it's Legacy counterpart...
No, I haven't gotten a Temple Garden yet. I just forgot to update my list to include it. lol The deck can live without it for now.
Congratulations on achieving a milestone for your thread! You beat yourself! XP
No, I haven't gotten a Temple Garden yet. I just forgot to update my list to include it. lol The deck can live without it for now.
Congratulations on achieving a milestone for your thread! You beat yourself! XP
I must have done a really great job with the legacy thread - so much so any new discussion there will be useless banter , well that is what i wish it was anyway but reality bites :rolleyes:.
Anyway let me know how your aggro version works out, while I'll try to get some games by the end of the week on my aggro-control version.
Anyway let me know how your aggro version works out, while I'll try to get some games by the end of the week on my aggro-control version.
I'm probably not going to be able to provide any useful statistics for you.
I have the paper deck (minus Temple Garden), but no competitive Modern environment to test this out. At this point, it's all theory. XP *casts Ivory Tower*
I'm probably not going to be able to provide any useful statistics for you.
I have the paper deck (minus Temple Garden), but no competitive Modern environment to test this out. At this point, it's all theory. XP *casts Ivory Tower*
Don't worry, you'll get the chance to play it soon.
I managed to find a Tier one Modern Zoo deck to play against this coming friday. I'll be bringing the deck below, hopefully Knights can give them a good game.
Good luck with your game. I will be most interested to see how Student of Warfare works in your GW deck. I'm curious to know if supporting an extra color hinders your efforts to level it.
I managed to find a Tier one Modern Zoo deck to play against this coming friday. I'll be bringing the deck below, hopefully Knights can give them a good game.
I must say, this has been an interesting thread to follow. Lots of good ideas going back and fourth.
I wanted to give the mono-white version a shot, so I've been playing with that a bit. It's fun, but more answers to heavy control would not go amiss. What're some good white cards for that?
Good luck with your game. I will be most interested to see how Student of Warfare works in your GW deck. I'm curious to know if supporting an extra color hinders your efforts to level it.
Thanks! Student of Warfare should work fine, out of the 20 lands I play, 19 of them produces W mana. And I also have Knight of the White Orchid to fetch Temple garden or even more plains. Therefore I don't foresee any issues with leveling it.
I must say, this has been an interesting thread to follow. Lots of good ideas going back and fourth.
I wanted to give the mono-white version a shot, so I've been playing with that a bit. It's fun, but more answers to heavy control would not go amiss. What're some good white cards for that?
Nice to have your acknowledgment that we are discussing useful stuffs here!
Otherwise a resolved AEther Vial will create chaos against control - I'm not too sure we need to add additional cards to strengthen the deck against Control.
Thanks! Student of Warfare should work fine, out of the 20 lands I play, 19 of them produces W mana. And I also have Knight of the White Orchid to fetch Temple garden or even more plains. Therefore I don't foresee any issues with leveling it.
Sorry, I was referring to how your first 2 turns are played. If you cast Student of Warfare on turn 1, but then have a "better" knight to cast on turn 2, you wouldn't not start leveling Student of Warfare until at least turn 3. While Student of Warfare is the arguably best 1-drop Knight, depending on the deck composition, when it levels up is an important strategic consideration to me. Aether Vial will help greatly since it will free up mana that can be used to level Student of Warfare up.
Quote from Nabbydian »
Nice to have your acknowledgment that we are discussing useful stuffs here!
Grand Abolisher is probably an important anti-control "hate bear." It will stop counterspell decks and slow down burn. I am looking into getting a playset of these to slow down Zoo with burn cards.
Oblivion Ring is an all-purpose card. Ethersworn Canonist is an anti-combo card, but it should be used with Aether Vial.
Quote from Nabbydian »
Otherwise a resolved AEther Vial will create chaos against control - I'm not too sure we need to add additional cards to strengthen the deck against Control.
Agreed. Aether Vial is an important card for aggro Knights, since we don't benefit from Zoo creatures.
Thistledown Liege is a bit too expensive and does not provide a useful anti-control effect. I wouldn't recommend it. If you need to use a Liege knight, use Wilt-Leaf Liege, because it at least has an anti-discard effect.
I'm still experimenting to see if it can work with 20 lands instead of 21 or 22, though with 20, as tough a call as it was, I had to lose Mutavault. I was wanting for that extra white mana too often.
Also, I really like Pithing Needle better than Phyrexian Revoker. It's nice to have another warm body (or rather, another cold, soulless metallic body, as the case may be) to throw at the enemy, but Needle is a lot harder to remove.
Sorry, I was referring to how your first 2 turns are played. If you cast Student of Warfare on turn 1, but then have a "better" knight to cast on turn 2, you wouldn't not start leveling Student of Warfare until at least turn 3. While Student of Warfare is the arguably best 1-drop Knight, depending on the deck composition, when it levels up is an important strategic consideration to me. Aether Vial will help greatly since it will free up mana that can be used to level Student of Warfare up.
Oh, in that case I have no answers for this, as it really depends on the board. Whether I choose to level him up on the second turn or cast another knight will depend on whether my opponents are tapped out or have mana for potential removal. If he is tapped out I might level up the student to attack. It also depends on what type of deck he is playing but usually I'll choose to cast another knight.
Grand Abolisher is probably an important anti-control "hate bear." It will stop counterspell decks and slow down burn. I am looking into getting a playset of these to slow down Zoo with burn cards.
Oblivion Ring is an all-purpose card. Ethersworn Canonist is an anti-combo card, but it should be used with Aether Vial.
I'm not sure if Grand Abolisher will be useful against Zoo, as their removal and creatures are so low in casting cost that they usually can cast both together by the 3rd-4th turns. Thereafter Abolisher will become a vanilla which is not even big enough to do a 1 to 1 trade off with any of the Zoo creatures.
I prefer Phyrexian Metamorph instead. We can vial him to protect Exemplar, copy their KotR or Goyf. Metamorph is also usually out of blot/helix/lavamancer range, although Pridemage can take him out.
Thistledown Liege is a bit too expensive and does not provide a useful anti-control effect. I wouldn't recommend it. If you need to use a Liege knight, use Wilt-Leaf Liege, because it at least has an anti-discard effect.
Yeah, Thistledown Liege is bad, I shouldn't recommend him, my bad. I was thinking against control you can flash knights into play in response to the control player tapping out.
I'm still experimenting to see if it can work with 20 lands instead of 21 or 22, though with 20, as tough a call as it was, I had to lose Mutavault. I was wanting for that extra white mana too often.
Also, I really like Pithing Needle better than Phyrexian Revoker. It's nice to have another warm body (or rather, another cold, soulless metallic body, as the case may be) to throw at the enemy, but Needle is a lot harder to remove.
Just take note if you add Wilt-Leaf Liege and vial to 4 counters, you lose the "vial in exemplar" trick as well.
I also would like to know if 20 lands works! Anyway I play 20 lands in my legacy knights, so if it works there, I'll assume it'll be good enough here.
On the choice between Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle, I'll prefer another body since we are playing Aether Vial. Besides, we have Exemplar which is a miust-remove so let's give the opponent the dilemma. Your Sun Titan can also bring Revoker back so playing Revoker has much more synergy with the rest of the deck.
Oh, in that case I have no answers for this, as it really depends on the board. Whether I choose to level him up on the second turn or cast another knight will depend on whether my opponents are tapped out or have mana for potential removal. If he is tapped out I might level up the student to attack. It also depends on what type of deck he is playing but usually I'll choose to cast another knight.
That is why you are playtesting on Friday against Counter-cat zoo. You're going to find out.
Quote from Nabbydian »
I'm not sure if Grand Abolisher will be useful against Zoo, as their removal and creatures are so low in casting cost that they usually can cast both together by the 3rd-4th turns. Thereafter Abolisher will become a vanilla which is not even big enough to do a 1 to 1 trade off with any of the Zoo creatures.
Hmm, I will concede this point. I had forgotten that Zoo is simply fast, and doesn't always use burn.
Quote from Nabbydian »
I prefer Phyrexian Metamorph instead. We can vial him to protect Exemplar, copy their KotR or Goyf. Metamorph is also usually out of blot/helix/lavamancer range, although Pridemage can take him out.
Although if you clone a Knight Exemplar with Phyrexian Metamorph, Qasali Pridemage can't touch him anymore. Phyrexian Metamorph is a hard to vial in since his CMC is 4.
Hey, Nevermore was just announced. Could be a SB card, but it's probably more for the control player and not us Knight players.
That is why you are playtesting on Friday against Counter-cat zoo. You're going to find out.
Yeah. In a Zoo matchup, I'll never level my student over casting another creature.
Due to the sheer number of removals they play, they will always have a burn spell in their hand and they will simply burn my student in response. Anyway even without response they can kill it.:rolleyes:
Hmm, I will concede this point. I had forgotten that Zoo is simply fast, and doesn't always use burn.
Problem is - Zoo is so efficient that they can cast their cats/goyf & removals in the same turn, unlike other decks which need to choose between one of them.
Although if you clone a Knight Exemplar with Phyrexian Metamorph, Qasali Pridemage can't touch him anymore. Phyrexian Metamorph is a hard to vial in since his CMC is 4.
After casting Metamorph at 3 for so long I have forgotten Phyrexian Metamorph is a Vial at 4 counter. Thanks for pointing this out, we'll need to reassess him again LOL - but he is a simply amazing when vial in on a Exemplar.
On the choice between Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle, I'll prefer another body since we are playing Aether Vial. Besides, we have Exemplar which is a miust-remove so let's give the opponent the dilemma. Your Sun Titan can also bring Revoker back so playing Revoker has much more synergy with the rest of the deck.
I didn't think of that. I'll try it with Revoker some.
Also, it just occurred to me that Order of Whiteclay could be a solid "maybe" for the mono-white version. It can be vialed in for 3, returns my threats to play, and its a solid early-game blocker.
I didn't think of that. I'll try it with Revoker some.
Also, it just occurred to me that Order of Whiteclay could be a solid "maybe" for the mono-white version. It can be vialed in for 3, returns my threats to play, and its a solid early-game blocker.
Please note that Order of Whiteclay's ability is an untap ability. Unless you have some way of tapping it, you are going to have to attack with it, which may cause the creature to die pretty fast. It also does not have any strong synergy with anything else in the deck. I would rather play a late game Sun Titan, because it is a card that needs to be answered.
Quote from Nabbydian »
After casting Metamorph at 3 for so long I have forgotten Phyrexian Metamorph is a Vial at 4 counter. Thanks for pointing this out, we'll need to reassess him again LOL - but he is a simply amazing when vial in on a Exemplar.
Just about any creature that gets vialed in is amazing. For me, I would probably attempt to cast Metamorph, because I'll be busying vialing in CMC 2 and CMC 3 creatures. I mean we have Knight Exemplar and Mirran Crusader at CMC 3.
Order does have a pretty good toughness behind it, which means the only thing likely to kill it early game is a seriously ramped-up Goyf, and its untap ability gives it psuedo-vigilance, making it a solid blocker. Still, I see your point.
I didn't think of that. I'll try it with Revoker some.
Also, it just occurred to me that Order of Whiteclay could be a solid "maybe" for the mono-white version. It can be vialed in for 3, returns my threats to play, and its a solid early-game blocker.
Yup, and the Revoker cannot be countered when Vialed in - as usual.
Yeah, Eriol has dissected the card perfectly. As far as I know Kithkins don't run it as well. Even if this was a knight I'm not sure it'll be worth a slot in the deck.
Just about any creature that gets vialed in is amazing. For me, I would probably attempt to cast Metamorph, because I'll be busying vialing in CMC 2 and CMC 3 creatures. I mean we have Knight Exemplar and Mirran Crusader at CMC 3.
That is true, that is why Vial is so amazing...and I simply like seeing the look of uncertaintly on my opponent face whenever I have an active Vial with counters.
Yup, we have many creatures at 3cc so Vial is pretty dead if we are to increase it to 4 counters.
Order does have a pretty good toughness behind it, which means the only thing likely to kill it early game is a seriously ramped-up Goyf, and its untap ability gives it psuedo-vigilance, making it a solid blocker. Still, I see your point.
I'll prefer another Knight anytime. At 3cc, we really should be playing Knight Exemplar, Mirran Crusader, or a Metamorph(to copy his goyf ?).
Austere command is in there for late game, played it against some mono white control, strangely had trouble there (the enchants proved to be a problem), imagine artifacts will be in the mix so it works against that (albeit takes out AEther vial and the swords), Patrician's scorn for the same reason, hard cast a knight (pick one) and enchant wipe for free, not bad. Only would pose a problem if your running honor of the pure (the build I'm testing doesn't use it).
Any thoughts?
I was struggling to put the non-knight creatures in the right categories other than the obvious maindeck choices such as Pridgemage and Relic-warder. Your comments definitely help in this aspect.
On reorganising the primer - I have also decided the GW knights should be the optimized build with 2 variants:
The 3rd list will be a Mono-W knights with & without Honor of the Pure.
Yeah, theme wise it seems almost perfect since most of the knights are Human type. It adds to the cute factor at the expense of competitiveness.
I added in your Maindeck from an earlier post and also edited your sideboard into it so I can get a full picture of your deck with sideboard. I'm not an expert on this coding stuffs but i presume your deck tag didn't work initally because you added card tags within the deck tag and also put your card quantity behind the card name. I remove the card tag and also shifted the quantity to the beginning of the card name and it works.
You can click "Quote" and a text box will pop up showing you how i did the deck tag for this particular post. Hope this helps.
For the sideboard - Maybe you can briefly explain what you expect to see in your meta?
I never see anyone play Austere Command but i'm worried about removing your own Oblivion Ring against Mono-White Control. Vial is probably useless by the time you have the mana to cast Command. Why not try Aura of Silence instead is enchantments are a major problem? For the late game against other matchups, Elsepth should be the card you are looking at when the board stalls.
Patrician's Scorn like command also kills your own O-Ring...
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Cool.
Sounds good.
Now, I remember somebody (you?) mentioning earlier in this thread that if you include GSZ, the deck starts looking like GW Maverick. Is that ok to you? My concern is that if we share too many cards with the GW Maverick build, I think some people will just use the GW Maverick decklist.
Lastly, on your first post that created this thread, I see these:
DECKLISTS AVAILABLE:
Mono w Knights - Modern WW Knights
gw Knights - Selesnya's Modern Knights
I think that needs to be revamped, since you are adding new deck suggestions. I couldn't actually find "Selesnya's Modern Knights" decklist in this thread at all.
Hmm, i'm thinking of only playing 2 pieces of GSZ in the Ramp Aggro Knights. I share your concern also on being too similar to GW Maverick. Honestly speaking if we go for 4 GSZ and remove Aether Vial then it is better off going for Maverick than Knights.
Reason on playing 2x GSZ is because the deck can only tutor Pridemage and Kotr and by playing 4 we should be able to draw them. White is still the dominant color here and GSZ is more like a backup plan rather than the main strategy.
I also don't want to pack the hand with too much Zeniths which might reduce the overall pace. How many would you play in your list?
Opps..my bad...I forgot to edit the title of the GW decklist in the second post.
Selesnya's Modern Knights should be the existing GW decklist, I named Selesnya because it has Temple Garden & i wanted to differentiate it from my GW legacy knights.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
If I go back to my original "unknown meta" deck list (with your suggestion on fetch lands).
My Unknown Meta Modern Aggro Knights
3x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Sun Titan
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Path to Exile
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
4x Horizon Canopy
5x Plains
5x Forest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Arid Mesa
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Ghost Quarter
I would drop my Sun Titan and swap it for one GSZ.
My Unknown Meta Modern Aggro Knights with GSZ
3x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Qasali Pridemage
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Path to Exile
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
4x Horizon Canopy
5x Plains
5x Forest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Arid Mesa
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Ghost Quarter
The reason I would only choose 1x Green Sun's Zenith is that I don't have enough green creatures that GSZ can tutor. For my deck (you will make different decisions with your deck and meta), I want my Knights on the battlefield quickly via Aether Vial or Noble Hierarch.
The way I view GSZ is that if I'm going to tutor a green creature with GSZ, I want to tutor a green creature that will mess with my opponent the moment it enters the battlefield. Fetching Knight of the Reliquary does not do this for me, because I cannot tap to use its ability on the turn I cast GSZ, so it's probably going to be destroyed by my opponent. Fetching Noble Hierarch does not do this for me either. Therefore, GSZ is really only tutoring for Qasali Pridemage in my deck, of which I only have 3 in my deck. So, GSZ is not useful in my deck, so I would include 1 GSZ at most.
Ah, that is why I couldn't find it. You did not title that GW deck as "Selesnya's Modern Knights," so I thought it was another GW Knights deck.
I'm not sure, I might want to keep Sun Titan. It really depends on how the deck plays out and I have no experience on the Aggro-Ramp Knights as yet. Previously I have Elspeth as the bomb so if you don't have both Elspeth and Titan the deck loses it's "monster" card.
On the other hand taking Titan out actually fit into the deck strategy because when you start cycling lands with KoTR I do not think you will be able to get to 6 mana even with Hierarch around.
Just more food for thoughts.
Yup, that is why i would only go with 2 GSZ instead of a playset, I was thinking it should be relatively easy for you to get to 4 mana(3 lands & 1 Hierarch) and playing one more GSZ would increase your odds of getting it.
With 4 PtE, 3 Pridemage and 2 GSZ I feel we can cut down on an O-Ring for flexbility in the form of an additional GSZ.
Below is the list I would go for, it's exactly same as your second list other then the following changes:
+ 1x Temple Garden
+ 1x Green Sun's Zenith
- 1x Plains
- 1x Oblivion Ring
3x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Path to Exile
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Temple Garden
4x Horizon Canopy
4x Plains
5x Forest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Arid Mesa
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Ghost Quarter
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Oh and I just realised the thread count for Modern Knights has exceeded it's Legacy counterpart...
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
No, I haven't gotten a Temple Garden yet. I just forgot to update my list to include it. lol The deck can live without it for now.
Congratulations on achieving a milestone for your thread! You beat yourself! XP
I must have done a really great job with the legacy thread - so much so any new discussion there will be useless banter , well that is what i wish it was anyway but reality bites :rolleyes:.
Anyway let me know how your aggro version works out, while I'll try to get some games by the end of the week on my aggro-control version.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I'm probably not going to be able to provide any useful statistics for you.
I have the paper deck (minus Temple Garden), but no competitive Modern environment to test this out. At this point, it's all theory. XP *casts Ivory Tower*
Don't worry, you'll get the chance to play it soon.
I managed to find a Tier one Modern Zoo deck to play against this coming friday. I'll be bringing the deck below, hopefully Knights can give them a good game.
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Student of Warfare
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Spells [6]
1 Dismember
1 Green Sun Zenith
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts [7]
4 AEther Vial
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
7 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I wanted to give the mono-white version a shot, so I've been playing with that a bit. It's fun, but more answers to heavy control would not go amiss. What're some good white cards for that?
Thanks! Student of Warfare should work fine, out of the 20 lands I play, 19 of them produces W mana. And I also have Knight of the White Orchid to fetch Temple garden or even more plains. Therefore I don't foresee any issues with leveling it.
Nice to have your acknowledgment that we are discussing useful stuffs here!
Offhand I can only think of Grand Abolisher, Leonin Relic-Warder.
Otherwise a resolved AEther Vial will create chaos against control - I'm not too sure we need to add additional cards to strengthen the deck against Control.
There are also Flash knights such as Benalish Knight & Thistledown Liege which you can consider...
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Sorry, I was referring to how your first 2 turns are played. If you cast Student of Warfare on turn 1, but then have a "better" knight to cast on turn 2, you wouldn't not start leveling Student of Warfare until at least turn 3. While Student of Warfare is the arguably best 1-drop Knight, depending on the deck composition, when it levels up is an important strategic consideration to me. Aether Vial will help greatly since it will free up mana that can be used to level Student of Warfare up.
The thread got a sticky! Congrats!
Grand Abolisher is probably an important anti-control "hate bear." It will stop counterspell decks and slow down burn. I am looking into getting a playset of these to slow down Zoo with burn cards.
Oblivion Ring is an all-purpose card. Ethersworn Canonist is an anti-combo card, but it should be used with Aether Vial.
Agreed. Aether Vial is an important card for aggro Knights, since we don't benefit from Zoo creatures.
Thistledown Liege is a bit too expensive and does not provide a useful anti-control effect. I wouldn't recommend it. If you need to use a Liege knight, use Wilt-Leaf Liege, because it at least has an anti-discard effect.
Here's the deck I'm currently messing with. It's not terribly different from the monowhite knights deck that was posted on page one.
20 Plains
Creatures
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Sun Titan
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Path to Exile
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 AEther Vial
4 Brave the Elements
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Grand Abolisher
3 Pithing Needle
I'm still experimenting to see if it can work with 20 lands instead of 21 or 22, though with 20, as tough a call as it was, I had to lose Mutavault. I was wanting for that extra white mana too often.
Also, I really like Pithing Needle better than Phyrexian Revoker. It's nice to have another warm body (or rather, another cold, soulless metallic body, as the case may be) to throw at the enemy, but Needle is a lot harder to remove.
Oh, in that case I have no answers for this, as it really depends on the board. Whether I choose to level him up on the second turn or cast another knight will depend on whether my opponents are tapped out or have mana for potential removal. If he is tapped out I might level up the student to attack. It also depends on what type of deck he is playing but usually I'll choose to cast another knight.
Thanks! I was pleasantly surprised when i saw that. Thanks also to the moderators for the acknowlegement!
I'm not sure if Grand Abolisher will be useful against Zoo, as their removal and creatures are so low in casting cost that they usually can cast both together by the 3rd-4th turns. Thereafter Abolisher will become a vanilla which is not even big enough to do a 1 to 1 trade off with any of the Zoo creatures.
I prefer Phyrexian Metamorph instead. We can vial him to protect Exemplar, copy their KotR or Goyf. Metamorph is also usually out of blot/helix/lavamancer range, although Pridemage can take him out.
Yeah, Thistledown Liege is bad, I shouldn't recommend him, my bad. I was thinking against control you can flash knights into play in response to the control player tapping out.
Just take note if you add Wilt-Leaf Liege and vial to 4 counters, you lose the "vial in exemplar" trick as well.
I also would like to know if 20 lands works! Anyway I play 20 lands in my legacy knights, so if it works there, I'll assume it'll be good enough here.
On the choice between Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle, I'll prefer another body since we are playing Aether Vial. Besides, we have Exemplar which is a miust-remove so let's give the opponent the dilemma. Your Sun Titan can also bring Revoker back so playing Revoker has much more synergy with the rest of the deck.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
That is why you are playtesting on Friday against Counter-cat zoo. You're going to find out.
Hmm, I will concede this point. I had forgotten that Zoo is simply fast, and doesn't always use burn.
Although if you clone a Knight Exemplar with Phyrexian Metamorph, Qasali Pridemage can't touch him anymore. Phyrexian Metamorph is a hard to vial in since his CMC is 4.
Hey, Nevermore was just announced. Could be a SB card, but it's probably more for the control player and not us Knight players.
Yeah. In a Zoo matchup, I'll never level my student over casting another creature.
Due to the sheer number of removals they play, they will always have a burn spell in their hand and they will simply burn my student in response. Anyway even without response they can kill it.:rolleyes:
Problem is - Zoo is so efficient that they can cast their cats/goyf & removals in the same turn, unlike other decks which need to choose between one of them.
After casting Metamorph at 3 for so long I have forgotten Phyrexian Metamorph is a Vial at 4 counter. Thanks for pointing this out, we'll need to reassess him again LOL - but he is a simply amazing when vial in on a Exemplar.
That's right, I have to agree with you here. A potential sideboard material but at 3cc it's too slow against combo.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I didn't think of that. I'll try it with Revoker some.
Also, it just occurred to me that Order of Whiteclay could be a solid "maybe" for the mono-white version. It can be vialed in for 3, returns my threats to play, and its a solid early-game blocker.
Please note that Order of Whiteclay's ability is an untap ability. Unless you have some way of tapping it, you are going to have to attack with it, which may cause the creature to die pretty fast. It also does not have any strong synergy with anything else in the deck. I would rather play a late game Sun Titan, because it is a card that needs to be answered.
Just about any creature that gets vialed in is amazing. For me, I would probably attempt to cast Metamorph, because I'll be busying vialing in CMC 2 and CMC 3 creatures. I mean we have Knight Exemplar and Mirran Crusader at CMC 3.
Early testing shows that if all you have is Plains (or other lands that can produce white), 20 lands is just about doable. So that's a thing.
Yup, and the Revoker cannot be countered when Vialed in - as usual.
Yeah, Eriol has dissected the card perfectly. As far as I know Kithkins don't run it as well. Even if this was a knight I'm not sure it'll be worth a slot in the deck.
That is true, that is why Vial is so amazing...and I simply like seeing the look of uncertaintly on my opponent face whenever I have an active Vial with counters.
Yup, we have many creatures at 3cc so Vial is pretty dead if we are to increase it to 4 counters.
I'll prefer another Knight anytime. At 3cc, we really should be playing Knight Exemplar, Mirran Crusader, or a Metamorph(to copy his goyf ?).
Yeah, I have played with 20 lands before and it's just about sufficient, fortunately we still have Vial & KoWO as contingencies.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W