I do have to admit, I like the idea of Gary against bridges.
As for bloodchief ascension, it is ok. Two activation damage isn't much, but three times might be tough if you need it faster. It could grab us some of their removal should they be able to deal with it. In 8-rack and mbc I will tell you though, that it has not been stellar for me. Let me know how it works for you in the gate though!
I have an updated list with smallpox and bloodghasts with wargear that just got me my first undefeated mini tourney, though it was only three rounds due to size. I wanna test a little more first though. I have to admit, I didn't hit burn though. I brought in sun droplets in the sb and never had a chance to use them! Wasted spots! I was also thinking about disciple of bolas but this card may just be too slow. Could be amazing with geralf's messenger and bloodghast etc. late game it gets rid of Percy for us too and fills our hand with some cards. Again though, we would almost HAVE to drop bob for another draw source to even consider him. Also, his body is really meh, and is terrible in a empty board state.
I found a sweet quote for us:
Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread.
—H. P. Lovecraft, "The Dunwich Horror"-
Is the original..
I say we put...
I know the gate. I am the gate. I am the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in me. I know where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where they shall break through again. I know where they have trod earth's fields, and where they still tread them, and why no one can behold them as they tread.
—Parmaha/H. P. Lovecraft-
I said it though, nobody else. If you don't put me on the quote I will sue for plagiarism. >:(
@parmaha
I cant wait to see the list once its polished. Please post it with all the necessary playstyle details and nuances.
Nice quote - I will add it to the OP (and credit you lol).
Gary is very good against bridge - I suspect the best strategy so far is probably discard and extirpate. Gary is tough with the high cmc and would definitely reflect a third direction this deck could go (other than aggro or control versions of the original lists). Im happy people are taking it there and look forward to more reports!
Cutting Bob just never seems right to me. If the build does not support him, then it is much less "gate" than it might be "devotion" or "MBC." It would be nice to see more posts and innovation about decks using the original engine cards (bob and bitterblossom mainly).
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I do agree that bob is the feel of the deck, but the idea is just card advantage. If people choose phyrexian arena etc. I wouldn't blame them, that said, I prefer to keep the curve low and keep in bob, as his body, along side mana cost is just super efficient. He even acts as discard for removal if you wanna drop a Percy next turn. (I have tempted a fair share of paths with him to cast a Percy the next turn. XD)
I do think though, that in order to fit in Gary, we would probably have no place for smallpox (obviously) and swapping in phyrexian arena or underworld connections (I prefer arena) would be MUCH easier on that deck's manabase while providing devotion. The gate has always been a proponent of effects that are normally bad for both sides, but are less so for us, providing card, board or tempo advantage. Then we make that gap even greater through bob. As such, the cards gained from arena function very similarly in my mind as bob's even if it can't swing or be sacked. On that note though, I would be VERY careful, as one huge aspect to bob, is he can be sacked. We have to balance all of our damage taken very carefully and control it well especially considering lightning bolt is the most common spell in modern.
@parmaha i feel the same about bob. He fits in here for sure but some people have a higher curve. I personally prefer underworld connections over arena because you can choose to not pay the life. Also same removal idea as bob.
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Decks: standard
N/A
Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
Phyrexian Arena accomplishes the same goal - card advantage - but in a very different way. The shell is different, the curve is different, the feel of the deck is different. I am starting to think devotion builds belong in the MB-devotion thread, but that's just me. It's okay if people prefer a higher curve and different cards - but I feel its a different deck entirely (even though it shares staple black cards).
The less focused our testing and cardpool is, the less we really accomplish for this thread. At the end of the day it will be just another "black deck" that falls onto page 3+ in the deck creation forum and eventually the "archive" section lol. We won't get better at this by making a ton of variants - focus and persistence will make this deck better and allow us to properly evaluate its strengths and weaknesses.
All decks have staples - ours are Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant, and Liliana of the Veil. The goal is to make this core work, not just build any black deck that works - because there are many threads with that same goal. We need to do it our way and that's what makes this thread different. These aren't cards that "fit well in the deck" -they are the deck. If for some reason it doesn't work (not my experience), then we move on to build a different deck - that is the nature of these things.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
@ jwelt While you do make some good points I believe we are all trying to build a very similar deck mono black card advantage!
I personally think that the reason all of our builds are so different is that they are meta based builds.... We should be building for what we expect to see at big tournaments if we want a set list of cards. The basic idea should be the same though... When building my legacy version I spent a lot of time looking at the top decks and the most seen decks at the tournament i expected to go to.. My modern version is built for my meta. (pod 1-2, burn 2-3, control 4-6, combo 2-4, 8rack, and various other home brews... If I were planning to go to a gp my list would look different. Coming to this thread and sharing our lists and other info about our decks helps to refine our lists and makes us look in cards and other play styles and win cons that some may not have tested or have just written off because it doesn't work in our legacy builds. Grey has no place in the legacy build but modern maybe it could be a piece we need... Basically what I'm trying to say is I think the basic legacy list is good in the format but the same list will not work in modern if we just replace the legacy cards with subpar modern playable versions
Correct - we should be tailoring to the meta and obviously the legacy list doesn't work verbatim here in modern (see OP where I have discussed this in great detail). The point is - are we building different versions of the same deck? Or are we building different decks... I think a few people posting here are building different decks. I am open to Gary in the gate, but builds not running dark confidant and bitterblossom are really not "the gate" - while they may be good and filled with black cards, they are something else. Please let me be clear on the fact I am not and have not been talking about legacy in this entire forum (except to illustrate the point of the deck). No one is writing anything off because it is not in a legacy deck, people who have have been asked not to do so by yours truly lol. Even bringing it into this discussion is distracting (please leave legacy in the legacy forum).
Mono black card advantage is not equal to the gate, but the gate is a build that has card advantage in its core. The same way a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Please understand that there can be countless mono black decks in modern, but we are trying to build something specific in this thread - and it is not mono black control and it is not vampires and it is not pox (to name a few popular mono black archetypes).
When deck building for the gate, if you are looking at your deck and saying to yourself "dark confidant and/or bitterblossom don't quite fit" - then you are not building the gate. You are likely building a different competitive black deck.
Every thread I have ever followed draws a line in the sand about what is and what is not the deck under discussion and I believe it is time to do so. Inevitably some people will fail to see the point of doing this, but I am sure everyone can agree a focused discussion is better than all over the place. If we consider anything that has black card advantage cards in it the same, then we are opening the gates (pun intended) for any competitive black build to call this thread their home and the deck will never be taken seriously or be developed to its full potential.
So I will begin the discussion with the following definitions. This is arbitrary based on my experience and understanding of my own goals for this thread - so of course it is up for discussion and debate! I would like to begin to draw some lines...
Defining the Gate:
Quote from the OP:
The name of the game for "the gate" is card advantage. You want to 1-for-1 and 2-for-1 your opponent as much as humanly possible until they run out of stuff. All the while you are generating a huge advantage with cards like bitterblossom and dark confidant. This is a deck that will remind modern players that bitterblossom had a spot on the ban list for a reason - even though faeries put it there.
This deck makes Dark Confidant shine the most out of any other I have seen because you are consistently able to set up a situation where they have to topdeck an answer for him - all the while being beaten to death by your army of dudes. In my experience playing the deck, a resolved and well timed bitterblossom and/or dark confidant is how you win. Of course, it also wins with many different combinations of beatdown and attrition. Abyssal Persecutor also does the job all by himself if left alone for a few turns. This is all made possible by forcing your opponent into topdeck mode early.
Quote from Legacy OP:
The deck generates card advantage and allows a clear opportunity to play unmatched threats while stockpiling cards, life, and creatures. By doing so, it becomes very difficult for an opponent to match this level of consistency when you repeatedly have answers for everything they try. By conducting this strategy, the deck opens itself up for so much more flexibility. Each card in the deck serves an important purpose. Black had so many good, underused things going for it. People just overlook it as being a crutch-color for decks that need combo protection or acceleration and really nothing more. With that being said, I present to you "The Gate".
I would like to emphasize that the idea is to generate card advantage through the most efficient removal spells available while sticking card advantage engines that win us the game = Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom and beating down with cards like Abyssal Persecutor.
While other black decks have a similar strategy, we all have a different way of winning the game.
The Gate:
If your primary win condition is disruption and unmatched card advantage through bitterblossom and/or dark confidant - you are likely building the gate. Phyrexian Arena does not make this list because it does not attack like the other two do. They give you card advantage and a win condition all in one. They are also both very low CMC allowing you to be more flexible with your lands. We also win with Abyssal Persecutor type dudes - big fat beaters that are very aggressively costed for the damage output they present.
Mono Black Control:
If your primary win condition is to answer every spell your opponent plays with removal until you have enough mana to beat them down with a bigger, efficient, hard to kill dude, then you are building a MBC deck. You may use Lashwrithe, Grave Titan, Phyrexian Obliterator, or Tombstalker (among other stuff) to get the job done. The primary way you draw cards is phyrexian arena. These cards are too expensive and slow for the gate.
Mono Black Devotion:
If your primary win condition is Gray Merchant of Asphodel and you pick cards (you might not otherwise pick) because they have a bunch of skulls in the upper right hand corner, then you are building a devotion deck. These decks want as many permanents as possible to up their devotion count. The Gate doesn't care about colored mana symbols - and probably wants things that have as few skulls as possible to enable us to use Mutavault and Ghost Quarter more effectively.
Mono Black Aggro Decks:
If your primary win condition is to swarm the opponent with synergistic and efficient dudes, then your deck is likely a vampire deck, zombies, or something else like it. The gate would rather spend its first 4 turns getting you into top-deck mode, controlling your hand and board, and generating card advantage than turning dudes sideways for lethal as fast as possible.
In conclusion
This has been a long post and I feel I should summarize the main point here - The Gate is its own black deck, not to be blended with existing archetypes. The Gate has a defining strategy and card pool which is very similar to, but not strictly the same as its Legacy counterpart. Because Modern is different than Legacy, the deck will have variation, and some things cannot be directly translated to the available options. Out of necessity, players of this archetype need to innovate and customize their decks while keeping the deck true to its core. The finely drawn lines above are not stated to push anyone away from this thread, but rather to focus their creative talent towards a more common goal.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
@ Atherion - Shocklands. We cannot easily afford to pay life for fetching and shocking on top of bitterblossom and dark confidant - or even phyrexian arena. To anticipate the thought - there are many green/black legacy gate decks but they have access to Bayou.
I feel like we could make splashed decks for the Gate (and probably will), but for this discussion I did not include any splash because it isn't the flavor of the deck. I think you are the only one here who thinks this is a worse GBx deck - we use different cards and if you feel this way you should go build a rock deck
As a matter of fact, the best green splash of this deck probably looks just like the rock - because we wouldn't be able to splash without making major sacrifices/changes to the original idea in order to avoid killing ourselves too often. I have been working on a GB version myself, and it just doesn't add up with the life loss unless you drastically change the idea. We have so much less room to play with life totals in Modern because of shocks...
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I definitely do - it is on par with other tier 2 decks at least. It needs more people to try it for the deck to get some publicity although i have the same amount of fun and success no matter how many people catch on ;). I am surprised people from other black deck forums haven't given this a shot yet... Although some of the cards are really pricey to acquire if you haven't got them already. Any serious black player in modern should work on getting dark confidants and lilys anyway though.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I definitely do - it is on par with other tier 2 decks at least. It needs more people to try it for the deck to get some publicity although i have the same amount of fun and success no matter how many people catch on ;). I am surprised people from other black deck forums haven't given this a shot yet... Although some of the cards are really pricey to acquire if you haven't got them already. Any serious black player in modern should work on getting dark confidants and lilys anyway though.
This deck really is too expensive. The three core cards are some of the three most expensive cards in the format. I myself would be playing it if it didn't require not just Bitterblossom but also Liliana and Bob.
You can do this deck without bitterblossom but its not ideal. Its an "engine" that would be really hard to replace. For budget reasons i would use bloodghast. On the price of the deck - this isnt a budget forum and good decks generally have a higher cost (With some exceptions).
Bitterblossom will probably see a reprint in the tokens deck ...
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Yeah Bitterblossom is a card a lot of people are trying to figure out. In this deck it is a pretty natural inclusion and has great synergy with this strategy.
Waste Not
- I love this card and will be buying 4 copies as soon as it is available for presale. This card is a very strong "engine card" that may be able to be used in this deck. I know it will be more of a natural inclusion in decks running the rack, but it is an engine we cannot ignore. Since the deck already runs a bunch of discard it is possible but would need to be built around quite a bit - another "variant" if you will. I am glad somebody saw that pox list - something I will be picking up more seriously when waste not is printed (for the record - it is definitely not an "8-rack" deck; I didn't feel like arguing that in the thread I started).
So, this is an expensive deck, and we should probably start a list of budget options. Any thoughts people? Bloodghast is a relatively cheap "engine card"
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I agree with the priority on getting those cards, although Personally I would go for Bob first - its close. There are certainly many budget versions this deck could run but at the end of the day the most expensive cards are the core of the deck :/
Sorry to anyone without the cards looking to give this a go... For budget reasons a smallpox variant would work, but it definitely needs at least 1/3 of the core cards.
When I get some time I will write a detailed "card selection" section for the OP and include budget options.
As a fun little project we should come up with the best possible budget version of the deck - be careful not to stray too far from the main goals of the deck. Ill start brewing a list. Anyone who loves to brew might like the challenge - it is going to be difficult to try and not use the current combination of Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, and Bitterblossom. I personally will be building solely around bitterblossom for my version of "budget gate." This will be fun!
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I know there are good reasons to stay mono-black (like no shocks, no blood moon problems etc.) but do we actually think this deck is strong enough in the format to warrant skipping another colour? Personally I think the Deadguy list looks a lot like what we are trying to do (card advantage, engines, even Bob!) but I feel like the extra colour provides them a lot of reach....
Nothing new here... I kinda take the summers off of magic. I would recommend building your own list based off of the ones in the OP (either exact or to your liking) and then post your own results here. Try out bad moon - its very fun and powerful with Bitterblossom and syncs with the rest of the deck. As far as the comment above yours - invalid with the moon out, and not really relevant anyway.
Good Luck!
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Just started thinking about this deck again and I have some new ideas to bring to the playing field! I know it's been a while - I move around with the decks I play quite a bit, and have taken some time off from mtg.
I am yet to test this out, but look forward to some playtesting later this week.
New inclusions are:
Pack Rat - this card has a lot of potential in this deck. It generates huge tokens, and can take over a game easily when its following up targeted discard.
Brain Maggot - I replaced Wrench Mind with these because they are another black dude that benefits from bad moon, and the targeted removal is often better than Wrench Minds situational discarding.
Vault Skirge - in an effort to make the deck quicker while keeping lifegain, I want to try these out in place of Vampire Nighthawk. Its also castable when your opening hand leaves you with one too many colorless lands. I am really looking forward to equipping one with grafted wargear. This also reduces the overall damage possible from dark confidant. A very efficient creature all around.
gatekeeper of malakir - the namesake of the deck. I had experimented with using smallpox instead, but its been too inconsistent to be worthwhile He's back in my list as a 3-of.
I hope some people can try this deck out so we may have more feedback and creativity to push this deck into more tournaments. Let us know and post here!
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Have you tried Disciple of Bolas? Seems like you could use just a little more life gain since we nick ourselves a lot. It would go really well with the Grafted Wargear and the Abbyssal Persecutor. It also works well with boosted Bloodghast or Bitterblossom tokens.
I'm not a huge fan of the name of the deck. I read the quote I sorta get the HPLovecraft reference, but MtG has cards called Gates and it can cause confusion.
Personally I'm not sold on Bad Moon. I think it's very meta driven and could easily be a better sideboard card.
Thanks for the suggestions! Disciple of Bolas definitely seems like it would go well in this deck, but in practice I don't feel like it would fit. The deck cannot fit any more 4-drops, and I could not justify switching Percy for this card... and without Percy, what would you be hoping to draw off of this late game? I just don't think it fits into the shell I have built around, even though there is obvious synergy with the sacrificing. If there were more 4-drops, the overall damage from bob would be too high. I also don't like that Disciple requires a creature to be sacced to be worth the slot. The only card with this type of effect I could justify was Altar's reap, and that's because it is instant speed and very easily used in practice (I have tested this). I don't use Bone Splinters for the same reason - too conditional, which I have also tested.
As for the name of the deck - I did not name it. It is called "The Gate" after its legacy big brother - where the original idea came from. The gate cards you refer to are not really playable in modern, and they were made long after The Gate came around. I do understand it can be confused though, so I am going to add a subtitle to the thread: Mono Black Aggro.
I am very open to other cards working in place of bad moon, but for a mere investment of 2 mana, I have yet to find something that does an equal amount for the deck. In tough matches, it has provided me with much needed p/t for my creatures, but that being said I could see how this might be a "win more" card. So far in my personal experience with this deck - it does fill a unique role, so I keep using it. Do you know of something else that might replace it? I have tried the swords, but they are too expensive to cast and equip. Notice Grafted Wargear and Bad Moon require no additional cost once cast to add benefit to creatures. I guess it is a similar reason why B/W token decks run honor of the pure. It really gives the tokens a much needed boost. It just adds overall strength and threat to the entire deck.
Do you play a similar deck? If so I would really like to have a look at your list
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I tried this as well and it was very inconsistent in my testing. I didn't test it long, because it just didn't fit the deck. I think what you are looking for might be this deck.
We don't deal enough damage to ourselves quickly to make Death's Shadow a viable option. In order to make this work, the deck becomes ultra-suicide, which sounds cool but doesn't really work. I think a lot of people see Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom in the deck and assume we are trying to kill ourself with this strategy, which isn't the case. We use life as a resource, like mana in order to generate card advantage. This needs to be done responsibly, not recklessly which is why so many ways of controlling life loss are built into the deck idea.
Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I figured that having Dark COnfidant and Bitterblossom out was enough with fetchlands and shocklands. Maybe consider the Rite of Consumption only as a sac outlet that can finish the game on its own.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant do cause a significant loss of life over time. Basically unless you kill yourself quickly in a controlled way, Death's Shadow is going to be a dead card. Bitterblossom kills you very slowly, and Bob is very unpredictable - both very far from ideal in the mind of Death's Shadow. With Bob out, you might take 1 damage in three turns, or 12 if you are very unlucky - On average you will take about 1.5 life/turn with the current list I am running which is actually slow also. In addition, while you are waiting for the perfect time to cast the Shadow, you will likely running low on cards in your hand and using Liliana of the Veil's +1 ability - in which case what is the point. For Death's Shadow to work, you need to get below 10 life very fast for it to be worthwhile. It is a matter of inconsistency and strategies that work against each other - again the gate does not want to kill itself that fast.
Rite of consumption without a huge Death's Shadow is going to be a dead card, which we cannot afford. It could be used on Abyssal Persecutor, but when you are saccing him, you have already won anyway so the damage is mostly just overkill.
You could make a pure suicide version of the deck, but you would need more than Bob and BB to lower your life total. You would probably splash colors and use fetches and shocks, Gitaxian Probe, and maybe even cards that allow you to "pay X life." At this point, we aren't talking about the same deck. Death's Shadow is its own archetype.
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
As for bloodchief ascension, it is ok. Two activation damage isn't much, but three times might be tough if you need it faster. It could grab us some of their removal should they be able to deal with it. In 8-rack and mbc I will tell you though, that it has not been stellar for me. Let me know how it works for you in the gate though!
I have an updated list with smallpox and bloodghasts with wargear that just got me my first undefeated mini tourney, though it was only three rounds due to size. I wanna test a little more first though. I have to admit, I didn't hit burn though. I brought in sun droplets in the sb and never had a chance to use them! Wasted spots! I was also thinking about disciple of bolas but this card may just be too slow. Could be amazing with geralf's messenger and bloodghast etc. late game it gets rid of Percy for us too and fills our hand with some cards. Again though, we would almost HAVE to drop bob for another draw source to even consider him. Also, his body is really meh, and is terrible in a empty board state.
I found a sweet quote for us:
Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth's fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread.
—H. P. Lovecraft, "The Dunwich Horror"-
Is the original..
I say we put...
I know the gate. I am the gate. I am the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in me. I know where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where they shall break through again. I know where they have trod earth's fields, and where they still tread them, and why no one can behold them as they tread.
—Parmaha/H. P. Lovecraft-
I said it though, nobody else. If you don't put me on the quote I will sue for plagiarism. >:(
I cant wait to see the list once its polished. Please post it with all the necessary playstyle details and nuances.
Nice quote - I will add it to the OP (and credit you lol).
Gary is very good against bridge - I suspect the best strategy so far is probably discard and extirpate. Gary is tough with the high cmc and would definitely reflect a third direction this deck could go (other than aggro or control versions of the original lists). Im happy people are taking it there and look forward to more reports!
Cutting Bob just never seems right to me. If the build does not support him, then it is much less "gate" than it might be "devotion" or "MBC." It would be nice to see more posts and innovation about decks using the original engine cards (bob and bitterblossom mainly).
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I do think though, that in order to fit in Gary, we would probably have no place for smallpox (obviously) and swapping in phyrexian arena or underworld connections (I prefer arena) would be MUCH easier on that deck's manabase while providing devotion. The gate has always been a proponent of effects that are normally bad for both sides, but are less so for us, providing card, board or tempo advantage. Then we make that gap even greater through bob. As such, the cards gained from arena function very similarly in my mind as bob's even if it can't swing or be sacked. On that note though, I would be VERY careful, as one huge aspect to bob, is he can be sacked. We have to balance all of our damage taken very carefully and control it well especially considering lightning bolt is the most common spell in modern.
N/A
Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
Legacy
The gate
Zombie bombardment
Burn
The less focused our testing and cardpool is, the less we really accomplish for this thread. At the end of the day it will be just another "black deck" that falls onto page 3+ in the deck creation forum and eventually the "archive" section lol. We won't get better at this by making a ton of variants - focus and persistence will make this deck better and allow us to properly evaluate its strengths and weaknesses.
All decks have staples - ours are Bitterblossom, Dark Confidant, and Liliana of the Veil. The goal is to make this core work, not just build any black deck that works - because there are many threads with that same goal. We need to do it our way and that's what makes this thread different. These aren't cards that "fit well in the deck" -they are the deck. If for some reason it doesn't work (not my experience), then we move on to build a different deck - that is the nature of these things.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I personally think that the reason all of our builds are so different is that they are meta based builds.... We should be building for what we expect to see at big tournaments if we want a set list of cards. The basic idea should be the same though... When building my legacy version I spent a lot of time looking at the top decks and the most seen decks at the tournament i expected to go to.. My modern version is built for my meta. (pod 1-2, burn 2-3, control 4-6, combo 2-4, 8rack, and various other home brews... If I were planning to go to a gp my list would look different. Coming to this thread and sharing our lists and other info about our decks helps to refine our lists and makes us look in cards and other play styles and win cons that some may not have tested or have just written off because it doesn't work in our legacy builds. Grey has no place in the legacy build but modern maybe it could be a piece we need... Basically what I'm trying to say is I think the basic legacy list is good in the format but the same list will not work in modern if we just replace the legacy cards with subpar modern playable versions
N/A
Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
Legacy
The gate
Zombie bombardment
Burn
Mono black card advantage is not equal to the gate, but the gate is a build that has card advantage in its core. The same way a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square. Please understand that there can be countless mono black decks in modern, but we are trying to build something specific in this thread - and it is not mono black control and it is not vampires and it is not pox (to name a few popular mono black archetypes).
When deck building for the gate, if you are looking at your deck and saying to yourself "dark confidant and/or bitterblossom don't quite fit" - then you are not building the gate. You are likely building a different competitive black deck.
Every thread I have ever followed draws a line in the sand about what is and what is not the deck under discussion and I believe it is time to do so. Inevitably some people will fail to see the point of doing this, but I am sure everyone can agree a focused discussion is better than all over the place. If we consider anything that has black card advantage cards in it the same, then we are opening the gates (pun intended) for any competitive black build to call this thread their home and the deck will never be taken seriously or be developed to its full potential.
So I will begin the discussion with the following definitions. This is arbitrary based on my experience and understanding of my own goals for this thread - so of course it is up for discussion and debate! I would like to begin to draw some lines...
Defining the Gate:
Quote from the OP:
Quote from Legacy OP:
I would like to emphasize that the idea is to generate card advantage through the most efficient removal spells available while sticking card advantage engines that win us the game = Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom and beating down with cards like Abyssal Persecutor.
While other black decks have a similar strategy, we all have a different way of winning the game.
The Gate:
If your primary win condition is disruption and unmatched card advantage through bitterblossom and/or dark confidant - you are likely building the gate. Phyrexian Arena does not make this list because it does not attack like the other two do. They give you card advantage and a win condition all in one. They are also both very low CMC allowing you to be more flexible with your lands. We also win with Abyssal Persecutor type dudes - big fat beaters that are very aggressively costed for the damage output they present.
Mono Black Control:
If your primary win condition is to answer every spell your opponent plays with removal until you have enough mana to beat them down with a bigger, efficient, hard to kill dude, then you are building a MBC deck. You may use Lashwrithe, Grave Titan, Phyrexian Obliterator, or Tombstalker (among other stuff) to get the job done. The primary way you draw cards is phyrexian arena. These cards are too expensive and slow for the gate.
Mono Black Devotion:
If your primary win condition is Gray Merchant of Asphodel and you pick cards (you might not otherwise pick) because they have a bunch of skulls in the upper right hand corner, then you are building a devotion deck. These decks want as many permanents as possible to up their devotion count. The Gate doesn't care about colored mana symbols - and probably wants things that have as few skulls as possible to enable us to use Mutavault and Ghost Quarter more effectively.
Mono Black Aggro Decks:
If your primary win condition is to swarm the opponent with synergistic and efficient dudes, then your deck is likely a vampire deck, zombies, or something else like it. The gate would rather spend its first 4 turns getting you into top-deck mode, controlling your hand and board, and generating card advantage than turning dudes sideways for lethal as fast as possible.
In conclusion
This has been a long post and I feel I should summarize the main point here - The Gate is its own black deck, not to be blended with existing archetypes. The Gate has a defining strategy and card pool which is very similar to, but not strictly the same as its Legacy counterpart. Because Modern is different than Legacy, the deck will have variation, and some things cannot be directly translated to the available options. Out of necessity, players of this archetype need to innovate and customize their decks while keeping the deck true to its core. The finely drawn lines above are not stated to push anyone away from this thread, but rather to focus their creative talent towards a more common goal.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I feel like we could make splashed decks for the Gate (and probably will), but for this discussion I did not include any splash because it isn't the flavor of the deck. I think you are the only one here who thinks this is a worse GBx deck - we use different cards and if you feel this way you should go build a rock deck
As a matter of fact, the best green splash of this deck probably looks just like the rock - because we wouldn't be able to splash without making major sacrifices/changes to the original idea in order to avoid killing ourselves too often. I have been working on a GB version myself, and it just doesn't add up with the life loss unless you drastically change the idea. We have so much less room to play with life totals in Modern because of shocks...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
This deck really is too expensive. The three core cards are some of the three most expensive cards in the format. I myself would be playing it if it didn't require not just Bitterblossom but also Liliana and Bob.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Bitterblossom will probably see a reprint in the tokens deck ...
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Waste Not
- I love this card and will be buying 4 copies as soon as it is available for presale. This card is a very strong "engine card" that may be able to be used in this deck. I know it will be more of a natural inclusion in decks running the rack, but it is an engine we cannot ignore. Since the deck already runs a bunch of discard it is possible but would need to be built around quite a bit - another "variant" if you will. I am glad somebody saw that pox list - something I will be picking up more seriously when waste not is printed (for the record - it is definitely not an "8-rack" deck; I didn't feel like arguing that in the thread I started).
So, this is an expensive deck, and we should probably start a list of budget options. Any thoughts people?
Bloodghast is a relatively cheap "engine card"
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Sorry to anyone without the cards looking to give this a go... For budget reasons a smallpox variant would work, but it definitely needs at least 1/3 of the core cards.
Everyone should have or get inquisition of kozilek and thoughtseize - these are format staples that are relatively affordable.
When I get some time I will write a detailed "card selection" section for the OP and include budget options.
As a fun little project we should come up with the best possible budget version of the deck - be careful not to stray too far from the main goals of the deck. Ill start brewing a list. Anyone who loves to brew might like the challenge - it is going to be difficult to try and not use the current combination of Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, and Bitterblossom. I personally will be building solely around bitterblossom for my version of "budget gate." This will be fun!
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I know there are good reasons to stay mono-black (like no shocks, no blood moon problems etc.) but do we actually think this deck is strong enough in the format to warrant skipping another colour? Personally I think the Deadguy list looks a lot like what we are trying to do (card advantage, engines, even Bob!) but I feel like the extra colour provides them a lot of reach....
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Does anyone have more test data to share? I'd really like to read it in order to build my own list.
Cheers!
Good Luck!
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Here's my new list:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Bitterblossom
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Pack Rat
1x Altar's Reap
Removal & Disruption (15):
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Victim of Night
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Brain Maggot
3x Vault Skirge
3x Abyssal Persecutor
2x Bad Moon
1x Grafted Wargear
Resources (22):
2x Bojuka Bog
3x Ghost Quarter
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
13x Swamp
4x Extirpate
4x Pithing Needle
2x Deathmark
2x Darkblast
3x Duress
Here's the same list organized differently:
3x Vault Skirge
2x Brain Maggot
4x Dark Confidant
4x Bitterblossom
2x Pack Rat
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Abyssal Persecutor
Spells (17):
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Victim of Night
1x Altar's Reap
2x Bad Moon
1x Grafted Wargear
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Bojuka Bog
3x Ghost Quarter
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
13x Swamp
4x Extirpate
4x Pithing Needle
2x Deathmark
2x Darkblast
3x Duress
I am yet to test this out, but look forward to some playtesting later this week.
New inclusions are:
Pack Rat - this card has a lot of potential in this deck. It generates huge tokens, and can take over a game easily when its following up targeted discard.
Brain Maggot - I replaced Wrench Mind with these because they are another black dude that benefits from bad moon, and the targeted removal is often better than Wrench Minds situational discarding.
Vault Skirge - in an effort to make the deck quicker while keeping lifegain, I want to try these out in place of Vampire Nighthawk. Its also castable when your opening hand leaves you with one too many colorless lands. I am really looking forward to equipping one with grafted wargear. This also reduces the overall damage possible from dark confidant. A very efficient creature all around.
gatekeeper of malakir - the namesake of the deck. I had experimented with using smallpox instead, but its been too inconsistent to be worthwhile He's back in my list as a 3-of.
I hope some people can try this deck out so we may have more feedback and creativity to push this deck into more tournaments. Let us know and post here!
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
I'm not a huge fan of the name of the deck. I read the quote I sorta get the HPLovecraft reference, but MtG has cards called Gates and it can cause confusion.
Personally I'm not sold on Bad Moon. I think it's very meta driven and could easily be a better sideboard card.
As for the name of the deck - I did not name it. It is called "The Gate" after its legacy big brother - where the original idea came from. The gate cards you refer to are not really playable in modern, and they were made long after The Gate came around. I do understand it can be confused though, so I am going to add a subtitle to the thread: Mono Black Aggro.
I am very open to other cards working in place of bad moon, but for a mere investment of 2 mana, I have yet to find something that does an equal amount for the deck. In tough matches, it has provided me with much needed p/t for my creatures, but that being said I could see how this might be a "win more" card. So far in my personal experience with this deck - it does fill a unique role, so I keep using it. Do you know of something else that might replace it? I have tried the swords, but they are too expensive to cast and equip. Notice Grafted Wargear and Bad Moon require no additional cost once cast to add benefit to creatures. I guess it is a similar reason why B/W token decks run honor of the pure. It really gives the tokens a much needed boost. It just adds overall strength and threat to the entire deck.
Do you play a similar deck? If so I would really like to have a look at your list
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
We don't deal enough damage to ourselves quickly to make Death's Shadow a viable option. In order to make this work, the deck becomes ultra-suicide, which sounds cool but doesn't really work. I think a lot of people see Dark Confidant and Bitterblossom in the deck and assume we are trying to kill ourself with this strategy, which isn't the case. We use life as a resource, like mana in order to generate card advantage. This needs to be done responsibly, not recklessly which is why so many ways of controlling life loss are built into the deck idea.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Rite of consumption without a huge Death's Shadow is going to be a dead card, which we cannot afford. It could be used on Abyssal Persecutor, but when you are saccing him, you have already won anyway so the damage is mostly just overkill.
You could make a pure suicide version of the deck, but you would need more than Bob and BB to lower your life total. You would probably splash colors and use fetches and shocks, Gitaxian Probe, and maybe even cards that allow you to "pay X life." At this point, we aren't talking about the same deck. Death's Shadow is its own archetype.
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague