While I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and insights on the idea of Miracles in Modern, I have to admit it's growing tiresome every time someone chimes in with a "needs top or brainstorm to work". A deck in Modern that resembles a Legacy deck is almost always going to be less optimal due to card pool restrictions. Since this archetype exists in Legacy, it is naturally going to draw comparisons so I do understand. It's still exhausting to hear all the time though.
And in an attempt to nip the "can't beat Jund" comments in the bud:
Is this archetype going to be consistent enough to prevail 8 rounds at a GP? Probably not.
Can these brews win a 3 round swiss at FNM? Let's find out!
Here's the problems I see with each of Jace's abilities:
+1: Sorcery speed topdeck manipulation doesn't help the Miracle plan much. Repeatable effect is nice, but I think Thassa is better. Maybe both?
-3: Overcosted for the effect. It's really quite terrible.
-8: Miracle builds tend to be creature light, so forget about protecting him long enough to ult.
So given that we've only had one decklist so far I thought I'd try another. A couple of random points first though:
1) No one seems to have mentioned Clash as a mechanic. It's basically "Do you have a miracle on top? If so keep it and win the Clash, if not keep digging"
2) Vendillion Clique seems really really good here as a way to shuffle back miracles
3) Think Twice is sitting in the board for match ups like twin where you are more likely to need to be able to miracle in their turn to try and fire off Terminus
The land is a bit rough around the edges (probably too much into play tapped but I couldn't resist scry lands :D) and the sideboard is kind of a mess but it's a start right?
Also shouldn't this be in the deck creation sub-forum (sorry for being "that guy")
honestly the new jace has been really nice for me but I overload on counters so that way the game state should be rather simplified thus jace doesn't have to worry about protecting himself. plus theres terminus thats one hell of a way to protect him haha
Without top and/or brainstorm there's really no reason to play miracles instead of UWR control. I'm sure if we even had brainstorm that cost 1U some of the miracles might see play but as of now there's just no reason when there's neither a way of guaranteeing that you draw miracles when you need them nor a way of getting them out of your hand for actually castable cards.
I believe for the most part when someone plays miracles in modern its not about playing the "best deck" its about playing something different. Because I know it is for me at least haha
Without top and/or brainstorm there's really no reason to play miracles instead of UWR control. I'm sure if we even had brainstorm that cost 1U some of the miracles might see play but as of now there's just no reason when there's neither a way of guaranteeing that you draw miracles when you need them nor a way of getting them out of your hand for actually castable cards.
Wow. It only took 6 posts after my post before someone spammed ye ole "needs top and brainstorm".
There are lots of reasons to play Miracles. If you can't see any of them, I kindly invite you to bug off to the competitive forums.
Without top and/or brainstorm there's really no reason to play miracles instead of UWR control. I'm sure if we even had brainstorm that cost 1U some of the miracles might see play but as of now there's just no reason when there's neither a way of guaranteeing that you draw miracles when you need them nor a way of getting them out of your hand for actually castable cards.
Wow. It only took 6 posts after my post before someone spammed ye ole "needs top and brainstorm".
There are lots of reasons to play Miracles. If you can't see any of them, I kindly invite you to bug off to the competitive forums.
Sure, I mean, fun is always a reason, but there isn't the support cards in the pool to make Miracles viable. Telling Time is a very poor Brainstorm imitator and miracle cards in your hand are way too inefficient. Secondly, Temporal Mastery is a terrible card in control decks. There's a reason why Legacy Miracles only play Terminus and Entreat. You only need Entreat as your win-con. If there were to be a Miracle deck in Modern it'd have to start with 4 Telling Time, 4 Serum Visions and 4 Snapcasters, since at least those cards have other utility and value than say Crystal Ball. Then you have to play instant speed draw effects, so you'd probably want Think Twice, Electrolyze, Relic of Progenitus, etc.
Even then it would be a very inconsistent deck. Hard-costing Entreat sucks. Terminus at 6 is a poor mans Hallowed Burial, but it isn't the end of the world in a lot of MU's.
Without top and/or brainstorm there's really no reason to play miracles instead of UWR control. I'm sure if we even had brainstorm that cost 1U some of the miracles might see play but as of now there's just no reason when there's neither a way of guaranteeing that you draw miracles when you need them nor a way of getting them out of your hand for actually castable cards.
Wow. It only took 6 posts after my post before someone spammed ye ole "needs top and brainstorm".
There are lots of reasons to play Miracles. If you can't see any of them, I kindly invite you to bug off to the competitive forums.
Sure, I mean, fun is always a reason, but there isn't the support cards in the pool to make Miracles viable. Telling Time is a very poor Brainstorm imitator and miracle cards in your hand are way too inefficient. Secondly, Temporal Mastery is a terrible card in control decks. There's a reason why Legacy Miracles only play Terminus and Entreat. You only need Entreat as your win-con. If there were to be a Miracle deck in Modern it'd have to start with 4 Telling Time, 4 Serum Visions and 4 Snapcasters, since at least those cards have other utility and value than say Crystal Ball. Then you have to play instant speed draw effects, so you'd probably want Think Twice, Electrolyze, Relic of Progenitus, etc.
Even then it would be a very inconsistent deck. Hard-costing Entreat sucks. Terminus at 6 is a poor mans Hallowed Burial, but it isn't the end of the world in a lot of MU's.
The definition of viable is "capable of working successfully; feasible".
Are you saying the deck is incapable of being successful?
How do you define success?
Have you tested or are you just theory crafting?
And here's a question not directed at you so much but for anyone reading:
Are there discussion forums here where players actually post data to support their analysis? Cuz that'd be super.
I've been testing Miracles in Legacy and this is my assessment.
You direly need Sensei's Divining Top and Brainstorm to go with the fetches. You have some substandard version of Brainstorm in Serum Visions, but you really have nothing that's close to Top. You could probably play some weaker version of Miracles if Top was unbanned, but that's about it. There's absolutely NO reason to run Counterbalance without Top.
counterbalance is viable in modern, but its quite dead against jund, as that is the only deck besides rock (which rock is more rare) that runs abrupt decay. its draw back in modern is you won't have the scry engine online until turn 4 and 5, but by then that is fine as you should have established a solid board state.
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Honestly in my build I've very rarely had a miracle stuck in my hand that I haven't eventually been able to cast. I've even managed to hard cast temporal mastery against zoo! That said I did all of about 2 hours of testing which isn't all that much.
to put more life into this thread i completely forgot about one of my favorite cards trade routes. im not sure everyone else is on the super long game plan like me so i usually end up with some number of lands in my hand. in theory i'd imagine it would work alright cycling lands and continuously allowing miracles all while providing soft answers to tec edge and people trying to kill my colonnades. has anyone tested that? if not ill be giving it a whirl this week
Being a legacy miracles player myself, i've always wondered about making a modern version of the deck. With tons of testing I tried and tried to make it work, and it sadly doesn't. Miracles in your hand are just dead cards for the most part, even the noxious revival route was quite sub-par. They need to print a modern legal card that lets you put cards from your hand on top of your library that's actually reasonable for this deck to really start functioning. It doesn't have to be top or brainstorm, it just can't be serum visions.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
since the miracles are to expensive for people mana wise you could use some mana rocks but having them in hand isnt that great i know their is see beyond which is like the best we got for getting rid of them. or jace the living guildpacts ult gets rid of them too... to only redraw them in those 7 cards haha. honestly we'll never get top back and we'll never have brainstorm the best we can hope for is jace getting unbanned but that's never happening either. and the deck doesn't need them its just what makes miracles so damn good in legacy and i think everyone needs to suck it up and stop referring to legacy miracles. if anything im sure miracles would have to resemble something like what it was in standard.
Kerano's trigger only activates on your turns, and if you draw the second card due to hitting a land, the Miracle ability won't trigger. If you draw a miracle card right off, congrats! You get a free Bolt in addition to your Miracle! How is that in anyway synergistic, though?
Now, Thassa is decent. Scrying before you draw is good for Miracles, but it doesn't solve the deck's inherent problem, which is getting dead Miracles out of the hand and back on top of the deck where they can actually be used, and also Crystal Ball has the same CMC, can be activated on the end step of the opposing turn (Meaning you still get to scry before drawing your card), scrys 2 instead of 1, and only costs 1 mana to activate. Unless you need that one mana up for an instant speed answer while on the opposing end step, its an all together better option.
i've done lili shes fine really liked her shes like another miracle in the sense you dont want her early obv but late game she is so so nice. lately i went from esper to azorius and this is my current take im always flopping around on numbers of remand, revs, verdict, and condemn
The issue with Miracles (and counterbalance) in Modern is that there is no way to get the Miracles or CB to do powerful things without playing really bad cards that are straight up card disadvantage (noxious revival, anything with clash, dimir charm on yourself, etc). Legacy miracles works because the entire deck is good cards that only get better when combined with the other cards in the deck.
Trying to make miracles in modern work, is like trying to make tribal treefolk work. Yes, you can make a treefolk/miracle deck. Yes, you can cast treefolk or miracles in that deck. Is the deck good? No. Does it win? Rarely at best.
The definition of viable is "capable of working successfully; feasible".
Are you saying the deck is incapable of being successful?
How do you define success?
Have you tested or are you just theory crafting?
And here's a question not directed at you so much but for anyone reading:
Are there discussion forums here where players actually post data to support their analysis? Cuz that'd be super.
In competitive magic, viable and successful are very closely linked. Viable means that the deck has a reasonable chance of winning a real tournament, not an FNM, but something at competitive REL and a decent ascendance.
Do you honestly think Modern miracles is viable? You are calling out people for not using data to support their claims, but where is your data? What success have you (or anyone) had with miracles in modern?
EDIT: As the counterbalance art for my avatar might suggest, I play miracles in Legacy and would love to see CB or miracles work in modern, but they do not.
The issue with Miracles (and counterbalance) in Modern is that there is no way to get the Miracles or CB to do powerful things without playing really bad cards that are straight up card disadvantage (noxious revival, anything with clash, dimir charm on yourself, etc). Legacy miracles works because the entire deck is good cards that only get better when combined with the other cards in the deck.
Trying to make miracles in modern work, is like trying to make tribal treefolk work. Yes, you can make a treefolk/miracle deck. Yes, you can cast treefolk or miracles in that deck. Is the deck good? No. Does it win? Rarely at best.
The definition of viable is "capable of working successfully; feasible".
Are you saying the deck is incapable of being successful?
How do you define success?
Have you tested or are you just theory crafting?
And here's a question not directed at you so much but for anyone reading:
Are there discussion forums here where players actually post data to support their analysis? Cuz that'd be super.
In competitive magic, viable and successful are very closely linked. Viable means that the deck has a reasonable chance of winning a real tournament, not an FNM, but something at competitive REL and a decent ascendance.
Do you honestly think Modern miracles is viable? You are calling out people for not using data to support their claims, but where is your data? What success have you (or anyone) had with miracles in modern?
EDIT: As the counterbalance art for my avatar might suggest, I play miracles in Legacy and would love to see CB or miracles work in modern, but they do not.
You are right, Miracles as the Legacy version cant work in Modern, that is a brilliant deduction, as quite a few of the cards that are pivotal to the deck arent modern legal. You are right again, that there are no cards you can replace that are modern legal to make an exact copy of the deck, again, great deduction. To say that there is no competitive deck in Modern that can make use / take advantage of the Miracle mechanic is just plain narrow minded. Maybe N.Revival or Dimir Charm are not the right cards to be using to take advantage of a great mechanic like miracle, but no one will know if people like you just come into threads like this were people are discussing possible deck lists can claim that it cant work without any evidence or examples of things that cant work.
Maybe Miracles will never be a tier 1 deck in Modern, but no one will know until people try it out and playtest it to death. Lots of people claimed that Living End was an unplayable card until someone realized that Cascade and living end with other unplayable cards made a Modern viable deck.
I think a UW control deck that uses some less-optimal cantrips (like Telling Time) to make use of the powerful miracle mechanic may balance itself out. Right now, Terminus might be at its most powerful, with Melira Pod at its most prevalent and its ability to abuse the graveyard. And UW control has always been looking for a powerful finisher, Entreat the Angels is easily a very powerful card when cast with its miracle mechanic.
You are right, Miracles as the Legacy version cant work in Modern, that is a brilliant deduction, as quite a few of the cards that are pivotal to the deck arent modern legal. You are right again, that there are no cards you can replace that are modern legal to make an exact copy of the deck, again, great deduction. To say that there is no competitive deck in Modern that can make use / take advantage of the Miracle mechanic is just plain narrow minded. Maybe N.Revival or Dimir Charm are not the right cards to be using to take advantage of a great mechanic like miracle, but no one will know if people like you just come into threads like this were people are discussing possible deck lists can claim that it cant work without any evidence or examples of things that cant work.
Maybe Miracles will never be a tier 1 deck in Modern, but no one will know until people try it out and playtest it to death. Lots of people claimed that Living End was an unplayable card until someone realized that Cascade and living end with other unplayable cards made a Modern viable deck.
I think a UW control deck that uses some less-optimal cantrips (like Telling Time) to make use of the powerful miracle mechanic may balance itself out. Right now, Terminus might be at its most powerful, with Melira Pod at its most prevalent and its ability to abuse the graveyard. And UW control has always been looking for a powerful finisher, Entreat the Angels is easily a very powerful card when cast with its miracle mechanic.
UW counterbalance was already an excellent deck in legacy before miracles were printed. Terminus was basically just a strict upgrade to wrath of god and engineered explosives the decks were running before hand. And entreat was just another efficient win con. The deck did not have change anything else. I didn't have to cut good cards for bad ones just to enable the miracles.
Playing a bunch of subpar cards just to slightly improve the consistency of setting up miracles in modern is just not worth it. Adding CB/miracles and cards to set them up is NOT an upgrade to what UWx control is already doing. You have to do too much work for too little of effects. The cookies are not worth the hoops you have to jump through.
Also, for the record, Living End was a deck in extended, and I had even seen it as a casual legacy deck, long before Modern was conceived. Unlike, miracles, the modern version functions just fine with a smaller card pool.
And like I said before, I'd love to see CB/miracles be viable in modern. I would play it in a heartbeat.
I think it's kind of sad that your definition of viable suggests that a deck is not worth developing or playing unless it can compete at higher levels when 99% of an average magic player's play experience is going to be fnm. I guess some people are so hyper-competitive that they can't help but be discouraging on these forums. It's too bad because it just sorta casts a negative shadow on what could otherwise be a proactive and creative environment. Sorry to dig at you so hard, but c'mon man, where's your creative spirit?
People are going to play tier 1 decks even at a FNM.
I'll tell you something: I hate it when I tell someone why their idea won't work, and the best response they can muster is "you haven't played it, so you don't know anything" or "you're so uncreative, blah blah blah".
How about replying like this for once:
1) tell me WHY my reasoning is incorrect, e.g. if I say Noxious Revival is terrible, then you tell me why you think it's so good. Don't dodge the question with "you won't know until you play it" - this just makes you look scrubby. Why? If I haven't played with the card and you tell me to "play it", it means you're so bad that you can't even out-argue someone (i.e. me) who is theorycrafting. If I have played with the card, then you're insulting me by underestimating the amount of effort I spent in understanding the effectiveness of that card.
2) prove me wrong. Build a deck that you think is "viable" and go win some tournaments with it. Or, if you don't want to do the dirty work yourself, wait for other people to start winning tournaments with it, then rub the results in my face and say "see, I told you so".
I'll just leave you with some mind-blowing thoughts:
1) Have you ever wondered if, maybe, the people who tell you that your idea won't work are actually so good that they don't even need to do any playtesting to figure that out? To them, figuring out Miracles is unplayable is like figuring out Grizzly Bears is unplayable, it's so natural that they can just say it and be confident of their judgment.
2) Have you ever thought that the people who tell you Miracles sucks are actually doing you a favor? While you're spending 10 hours playing Miracles, the guys who told you it sucks are doing something else. In the end you will both say "yep, Miracles sucks", but it took you 10 hours to figure that out while it only took 5 minutes for the other guy. Next time, listen to them. Unless you enjoy wasting your time, of course.
3) Have you ever thought that, maybe, building a "viable" Miracles deck is impossible? I mean, you seem to think that "if I put in enough effort, anything is possible!" - sorry, but some things are literally impossible, like (to use a non-Magic example) trying to build a perpetual motion machine. Or trying to run a mile in a minute, it doesn't matter how much you train or what you eat, you will never do it.
Exactly. What makes Miracles not competitive in Modern is the fact we have either 1) No way to put them back on top of the library from our hand (At best we have See Beyond...) / 2) No way to efficiently manipulate the top of our deck every turn. We need either or for it to be competitive. Otherwise you're just hoping you top deck your miracle card at the right time, or using sub-par cards for not enough return and in turn your win% dramatically decreases. I don't even believe that Counterbalance is good in Modern due to all the variable CMC costs, so I don't see why we're discussing Balance in a Miracle thread. I mean, if you're playing Crystal Ball for instance....That's way too much work for bleh gain.
Maybe if a shell was like: 4 Serum Vision, 4 Telling Time, 4 See Beyond, 2-3 TT/Relic of Progenitus, etc. This brings me to another point - having cheap efficient ways to draw cards on your opponents turn to enable things like Terminus during combat and EoT Entreat the Angels. Top allows Legacy Miracles to be extremely efficient in doing 2 important jobs for the deck 1) Consistent library manipulation 2) Instant speed draw to trigger the Miracle. You can't just look at Legacy Miracles and say LOOK HOW GOOD IT IS! Without looking at what check boxes need to be checked and then pitch silliness like Crystal Ball or Mystic Speculation.
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And in an attempt to nip the "can't beat Jund" comments in the bud:
Is this archetype going to be consistent enough to prevail 8 rounds at a GP? Probably not.
Can these brews win a 3 round swiss at FNM? Let's find out!
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Here's the problems I see with each of Jace's abilities:
+1: Sorcery speed topdeck manipulation doesn't help the Miracle plan much. Repeatable effect is nice, but I think Thassa is better. Maybe both?
-3: Overcosted for the effect. It's really quite terrible.
-8: Miracle builds tend to be creature light, so forget about protecting him long enough to ult.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
1) No one seems to have mentioned Clash as a mechanic. It's basically "Do you have a miracle on top? If so keep it and win the Clash, if not keep digging"
2) Vendillion Clique seems really really good here as a way to shuffle back miracles
3) Think Twice is sitting in the board for match ups like twin where you are more likely to need to be able to miracle in their turn to try and fire off Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Temporal Mastery
Searchers
4 Telling Time
2 Whirlpool Whelm
3 Pollen Lullaby
1 Mystic Speculation
Recyclers
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Noxious Revival
2 See Beyond
3 Isochron Scepter
3 Mana Leak
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Lands
1 Celestial Colonnade
4 Temple of Enlightenment
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Calciform Pools
2 Mystic Gate
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Devastation Tide
2 Think Twice
4 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Hushwing Gryff
The land is a bit rough around the edges (probably too much into play tapped but I couldn't resist scry lands :D) and the sideboard is kind of a mess but it's a start right?
Also shouldn't this be in the deck creation sub-forum (sorry for being "that guy")
Wow. It only took 6 posts after my post before someone spammed ye ole "needs top and brainstorm".
There are lots of reasons to play Miracles. If you can't see any of them, I kindly invite you to bug off to the competitive forums.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Sure, I mean, fun is always a reason, but there isn't the support cards in the pool to make Miracles viable. Telling Time is a very poor Brainstorm imitator and miracle cards in your hand are way too inefficient. Secondly, Temporal Mastery is a terrible card in control decks. There's a reason why Legacy Miracles only play Terminus and Entreat. You only need Entreat as your win-con. If there were to be a Miracle deck in Modern it'd have to start with 4 Telling Time, 4 Serum Visions and 4 Snapcasters, since at least those cards have other utility and value than say Crystal Ball. Then you have to play instant speed draw effects, so you'd probably want Think Twice, Electrolyze, Relic of Progenitus, etc.
Even then it would be a very inconsistent deck. Hard-costing Entreat sucks. Terminus at 6 is a poor mans Hallowed Burial, but it isn't the end of the world in a lot of MU's.
The definition of viable is "capable of working successfully; feasible".
Are you saying the deck is incapable of being successful?
How do you define success?
Have you tested or are you just theory crafting?
And here's a question not directed at you so much but for anyone reading:
Are there discussion forums here where players actually post data to support their analysis? Cuz that'd be super.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
counterbalance is viable in modern, but its quite dead against jund, as that is the only deck besides rock (which rock is more rare) that runs abrupt decay. its draw back in modern is you won't have the scry engine online until turn 4 and 5, but by then that is fine as you should have established a solid board state.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
@Edit
No one tried Keranos yet?
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Kerano's trigger only activates on your turns, and if you draw the second card due to hitting a land, the Miracle ability won't trigger. If you draw a miracle card right off, congrats! You get a free Bolt in addition to your Miracle! How is that in anyway synergistic, though?
Now, Thassa is decent. Scrying before you draw is good for Miracles, but it doesn't solve the deck's inherent problem, which is getting dead Miracles out of the hand and back on top of the deck where they can actually be used, and also Crystal Ball has the same CMC, can be activated on the end step of the opposing turn (Meaning you still get to scry before drawing your card), scrys 2 instead of 1, and only costs 1 mana to activate. Unless you need that one mana up for an instant speed answer while on the opposing end step, its an all together better option.
i've done lili shes fine really liked her shes like another miracle in the sense you dont want her early obv but late game she is so so nice. lately i went from esper to azorius and this is my current take im always flopping around on numbers of remand, revs, verdict, and condemn
4 Azorius Charm
4 Telling Time
4 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
4 Condescend
3 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Pulse of the Fields
2 Entreat the Angels
2 See Beyond
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Halimar Depths
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mystic Gate
3 Island
All of them allow a lot of top deck manipulation and most of them work at instant speed allowing you to keep up counter magic/path
Trying to make miracles in modern work, is like trying to make tribal treefolk work. Yes, you can make a treefolk/miracle deck. Yes, you can cast treefolk or miracles in that deck. Is the deck good? No. Does it win? Rarely at best.
In competitive magic, viable and successful are very closely linked. Viable means that the deck has a reasonable chance of winning a real tournament, not an FNM, but something at competitive REL and a decent ascendance.
Do you honestly think Modern miracles is viable? You are calling out people for not using data to support their claims, but where is your data? What success have you (or anyone) had with miracles in modern?
EDIT: As the counterbalance art for my avatar might suggest, I play miracles in Legacy and would love to see CB or miracles work in modern, but they do not.
You are right, Miracles as the Legacy version cant work in Modern, that is a brilliant deduction, as quite a few of the cards that are pivotal to the deck arent modern legal. You are right again, that there are no cards you can replace that are modern legal to make an exact copy of the deck, again, great deduction. To say that there is no competitive deck in Modern that can make use / take advantage of the Miracle mechanic is just plain narrow minded. Maybe N.Revival or Dimir Charm are not the right cards to be using to take advantage of a great mechanic like miracle, but no one will know if people like you just come into threads like this were people are discussing possible deck lists can claim that it cant work without any evidence or examples of things that cant work.
Maybe Miracles will never be a tier 1 deck in Modern, but no one will know until people try it out and playtest it to death. Lots of people claimed that Living End was an unplayable card until someone realized that Cascade and living end with other unplayable cards made a Modern viable deck.
I think a UW control deck that uses some less-optimal cantrips (like Telling Time) to make use of the powerful miracle mechanic may balance itself out. Right now, Terminus might be at its most powerful, with Melira Pod at its most prevalent and its ability to abuse the graveyard. And UW control has always been looking for a powerful finisher, Entreat the Angels is easily a very powerful card when cast with its miracle mechanic.
UW counterbalance was already an excellent deck in legacy before miracles were printed. Terminus was basically just a strict upgrade to wrath of god and engineered explosives the decks were running before hand. And entreat was just another efficient win con. The deck did not have change anything else. I didn't have to cut good cards for bad ones just to enable the miracles.
Playing a bunch of subpar cards just to slightly improve the consistency of setting up miracles in modern is just not worth it. Adding CB/miracles and cards to set them up is NOT an upgrade to what UWx control is already doing. You have to do too much work for too little of effects. The cookies are not worth the hoops you have to jump through.
Also, for the record, Living End was a deck in extended, and I had even seen it as a casual legacy deck, long before Modern was conceived. Unlike, miracles, the modern version functions just fine with a smaller card pool.
And like I said before, I'd love to see CB/miracles be viable in modern. I would play it in a heartbeat.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
I'll tell you something: I hate it when I tell someone why their idea won't work, and the best response they can muster is "you haven't played it, so you don't know anything" or "you're so uncreative, blah blah blah".
How about replying like this for once:
1) tell me WHY my reasoning is incorrect, e.g. if I say Noxious Revival is terrible, then you tell me why you think it's so good. Don't dodge the question with "you won't know until you play it" - this just makes you look scrubby. Why? If I haven't played with the card and you tell me to "play it", it means you're so bad that you can't even out-argue someone (i.e. me) who is theorycrafting. If I have played with the card, then you're insulting me by underestimating the amount of effort I spent in understanding the effectiveness of that card.
2) prove me wrong. Build a deck that you think is "viable" and go win some tournaments with it. Or, if you don't want to do the dirty work yourself, wait for other people to start winning tournaments with it, then rub the results in my face and say "see, I told you so".
I'll just leave you with some mind-blowing thoughts:
1) Have you ever wondered if, maybe, the people who tell you that your idea won't work are actually so good that they don't even need to do any playtesting to figure that out? To them, figuring out Miracles is unplayable is like figuring out Grizzly Bears is unplayable, it's so natural that they can just say it and be confident of their judgment.
2) Have you ever thought that the people who tell you Miracles sucks are actually doing you a favor? While you're spending 10 hours playing Miracles, the guys who told you it sucks are doing something else. In the end you will both say "yep, Miracles sucks", but it took you 10 hours to figure that out while it only took 5 minutes for the other guy. Next time, listen to them. Unless you enjoy wasting your time, of course.
3) Have you ever thought that, maybe, building a "viable" Miracles deck is impossible? I mean, you seem to think that "if I put in enough effort, anything is possible!" - sorry, but some things are literally impossible, like (to use a non-Magic example) trying to build a perpetual motion machine. Or trying to run a mile in a minute, it doesn't matter how much you train or what you eat, you will never do it.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Maybe if a shell was like: 4 Serum Vision, 4 Telling Time, 4 See Beyond, 2-3 TT/Relic of Progenitus, etc. This brings me to another point - having cheap efficient ways to draw cards on your opponents turn to enable things like Terminus during combat and EoT Entreat the Angels. Top allows Legacy Miracles to be extremely efficient in doing 2 important jobs for the deck 1) Consistent library manipulation 2) Instant speed draw to trigger the Miracle. You can't just look at Legacy Miracles and say LOOK HOW GOOD IT IS! Without looking at what check boxes need to be checked and then pitch silliness like Crystal Ball or Mystic Speculation.