Ah yes it can but I don't think the extra mana is needed. In all my matches ive never had a problem digging to find the Early Harvest. But that is something Merchant Scroll cant do.
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I also feel that the extra 2 mana is worth the ability to get dictate, snapcaster, or early harvest. If you wanted to getcute with painter's servent to make harevst blue then scroll is probably better, but doing that turns on opponents removal.
I went online and found dozens of threads and websites with articles about decks similar to this. Since Champions was released people have been playing the Heartbeat/Harvest combo in standard and extended. When modern was first announced people tried to break it and it was a viable turn 4 combo deck. It must have fallen off the radar or people would rather play Twin/Pod. Anyways I got a ton of ideas. Before now I saw the deck as trying to loop and cycle all its spells and produce a ton of mana, for me usually resulting in around 500 mana in both colors. After looking at other lists and older versions they are basically doing the same thing Torpf's list is doing and trying to use just enough mana to play all its Harvests and use Snap's to reuse them to produce just enough mana for the kill. I think both ideas are strong and I think the 2nd idea is better. Also older versions ran something like 22-24 lands.
Im going to make 2 versions and test both. Will post results.
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I've been playing just Heartbeat combo for a while now, but I'm going to give this a shot soon.
Initial impressions just reading through this (excellent and constructive) thread are the usual things: Dictate costs too much mana, I loathe Time Reversal, and there's no hope vs. aggro except for a quick combo-off, which Heartbeat decks are generally faster at.
Regardless, lots of good work put into this thread, it's very impressive.
Dictate costing 5 can be somewhat negated by playing the tribe elders & Search for tomorrows.
By playing more heartbeat over dictate, have you found opponents take over the game with the bonus mana and our "low" count of counter spells?
for the agro match i think you need to get a little lucky, and then sideboard in terminus in the second game. There may be a better option such as fire-spout or something, but terminus can hit every creature which is nice.
Quick Edit: I feel like this deck is open to changes, such as you suggested swapping the dictates for heartbeats and what not, we just need to have more people tossing in ideas as opposed to these "this deck is bad give up on it" comments.
Dictate costing 5 can be somewhat negated by playing the tribe elders & Search for tomorrows.
By playing more heartbeat over dictate, have you found opponents take over the game with the bonus mana and our "low" count of counter spells?
for the agro match i think you need to get a little lucky, and then sideboard in terminus in the second game. There may be a better option such as fire-spout or something, but terminus can hit every creature which is nice.
Quick Edit: I feel like this deck is open to changes, such as you suggested swapping the dictates for heartbeats and what not, we just need to have more people tossing in ideas as opposed to these "this deck is bad give up on it" comments.
I build my Heartbeat versions around winning the turn I drop Heartbeat, after an EOT Gifts pile. It's very consistent, but more vulnerable to GY hate, but not to such a degree that it makes the version unplayable.
Is Terminus really the way to go, though? I feel that if you need to side into a 3rd color to deal with aggro, that's not a good sign. I'd look into things that are in our base colors and we already run, like more Reality Spasm or even Gigadrowse.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think this deck is bad at all! I feel that Early Harvest + Mana Doubler: The Deck has the potential to break into Modern a bit, much like how the Amulet Bouncelands / Restore Balance had a few good showings.
Dictate costing 5 can be somewhat negated by playing the tribe elders & Search for tomorrows.
By playing more heartbeat over dictate, have you found opponents take over the game with the bonus mana and our "low" count of counter spells?
for the agro match i think you need to get a little lucky, and then sideboard in terminus in the second game. There may be a better option such as fire-spout or something, but terminus can hit every creature which is nice.
Quick Edit: I feel like this deck is open to changes, such as you suggested swapping the dictates for heartbeats and what not, we just need to have more people tossing in ideas as opposed to these "this deck is bad give up on it" comments.
I build my Heartbeat versions around winning the turn I drop Heartbeat, after an EOT Gifts pile. It's very consistent, but more vulnerable to GY hate, but not to such a degree that it makes the version unplayable.
Is Terminus really the way to go, though? I feel that if you need to side into a 3rd color to deal with aggro, that's not a good sign. I'd look into things that are in our base colors and we already run, like more Reality Spasm or even Gigadrowse.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think this deck is bad at all! I feel that Early Harvest + Mana Doubler: The Deck has the potential to break into Modern a bit, much like how the Amulet Bouncelands / Restore Balance had a few good showings.
The comment about people being mean wasn't for you, it was for those "other people".
I really like that hearbeat costs 3 and it can definitely speed up the combo. I switched to Dictate & I think the primer mentions it also, that dictate won't die to those pesky abrupt decays, and if you play it on their end step on turn 4-5 you get to un tap with 10 mana available compared to what is remaining after casting the heartbeat.
And as for Terminus, I currently want to play Bant for Glittering Wish to wish for Sphinx's Rev, but I feel like this is a bad idea to start doing before we make the deck more consistent
I think im going to increase my land count a little to sorta mimic the older versions with Heartbeat. I mean running as low a land count as we can is good but sometimes ill draw 1 or 0 lands in my opening hand and I have to mull to an even worse hand.
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I also feel that the extra 2 mana is worth the ability to get dictate, snapcaster, or early harvest. If you wanted to getcute with painter's servent to make harevst blue then scroll is probably better, but doing that turns on opponents removal.
I agree with this. I have found that the deck has become wayyy more consistent since the inclusion of the Tutors in my tempo list. I recommend them.
Dictate costing 5 can be somewhat negated by playing the tribe elders & Search for tomorrows.
By playing more heartbeat over dictate, have you found opponents take over the game with the bonus mana and our "low" count of counter spells?
for the agro match i think you need to get a little lucky, and then sideboard in terminus in the second game. There may be a better option such as fire-spout or something, but terminus can hit every creature which is nice.
Quick Edit: I feel like this deck is open to changes, such as you suggested swapping the dictates for heartbeats and what not, we just need to have more people tossing in ideas as opposed to these "this deck is bad give up on it" comments.
I agree, I think the deck is open to change. Any ideas are good ideas! On that topic though, didn't I already mention Praetor's Counsel somewhere at the start of the thread? Or in the Primer? Every time I see it I want to include it, but it just costs soooo much.
On a side note, the dick on Starcity is similar to how mine originally came about. Started out as a gifts package deck...
I build my Heartbeat versions around winning the turn I drop Heartbeat, after an EOT Gifts pile. It's very consistent, but more vulnerable to GY hate, but not to such a degree that it makes the version unplayable.
Mind posting your lists. I've been trying to find as many game-winning gifts piles as I could but none seem to be "perfect." Like I was thinking along the lines of [Dictate, Heartbeat, Snapcaster Mage, Noxious Revival] or [Early Harvest, Reality Spasm, Rude Awakening, and Snapcaster Mage].
Is Terminus really the way to go, though? I feel that if you need to side into a 3rd color to deal with aggro, that's not a good sign. I'd look into things that are in our base colors and we already run, like more Reality Spasm or even Gigadrowse.
I am looking into Early Frost as a way to Timewalk decks in the first three turns. We can also lock them down by casting it on the first main phase, then passing to combat to empty their pool. Besides, I feel as though the deck needs as many cards in it with the name "Early" as possible.
I really like that hearbeat costs 3 and it can definitely speed up the combo. I switched to Dictate & I think the primer mentions it also, that dictate won't die to those pesky abrupt decays, and if you play it on their end step on turn 4-5 you get to un tap with 10 mana available compared to what is remaining after casting the heartbeat.
And as for Terminus, I currently want to play Bant for Glittering Wish to wish for Sphinx's Rev, but I feel like this is a bad idea to start doing before we make the deck more consistent
Damn right the primer mentions it. As for the Bant list. I am thinking that Bant and RUG are the two routes that the deck can take. I was tossing around a BUG list but it seemed to fall short every time. If we get different people taking different lists in different directions could be good.
I think im going to increase my land count a little to sorta mimic the older versions with Heartbeat. I mean running as low a land count as we can is good but sometimes ill draw 1 or 0 lands in my opening hand and I have to mull to an even worse hand.
I have been looking at this too. I am liking 20 lands as it reduces mulligans. I was also looking at 22 lands with 1-2 Explores maindeck.
Same, I saw some lists running 20 lands with a couple Explores and some lists running 24 lands with a full set. The only problem for me is cutting stuff. There are so many good spells. So im cutting some extra Scrolls and a Snap and some other fatty stuff that I don't need to add in a couple extra lands and 2 Drift of Phantasms since they can tutor Early Harvest and Heartbeat of Spring and Search for Tomorrow.
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Same, I saw some lists running 20 lands with a couple Explores and some lists running 24 lands with a full set. The only problem for me is cutting stuff. There are so many good spells. So im cutting some extra Scrolls and a Snap and some other fatty stuff that I don't need to add in a couple extra lands and 2 Drift of Phantasms since they can tutor Early Harvest and Heartbeat of Spring and Search for Tomorrow.
I thought about Drift of Phantasms before but decided against it. But I guess if you are playing Heartbeat of Spring then it might be worth it. Let us know how it goes for you.
On another note... Wednesday Night Modern #2 is tomorrow!! Here is the decklist that I am planning on bringing. They are allowing proxies at this store so any last minute comments on it can be added to the deck even if I don't have the cards on hand. Right now my list is looking like:
I'm going to keep the deck sort of like it was last week. I am going for a very consistent build. I have upped the number of lands to 19, by adding a forest that wasn't there before. I dropped one Time Reversal for a Snapcaster Mage. I am debating putting in an Explore instead of the forest, and a Swan Song instead of the Time Reversal. Any thoughts before tomorrow will help. Also a better sideboard could help the deck preform better too.
I think you should reverse the split onyour tutors. Eithr 1 mystic 3 scrolls, or 4 of either.
Change r&d in the sideboard, it's not doing anything for youunless you cangetit into your deck in game 1.
I think you should reverse the split onyour tutors. Eithr 1 mystic 3 scrolls, or 4 of either.
Change r&d in the sideboard, it's not doing anything for youunless you cangetit into your deck in game 1.
Although I like Teachings, between the Drift of Phantasms and Merchant scrolls I feel they do the job just as well cheaper. If you do play Teachings in the main I like it as a 1 of in your current list.
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This deck looks pretty cool, but how does it combo off exactly? I see how it can make a *****load of mana, but how are you replenishing your hand, and drawing cards? Do you just tutor for Blue Sun, Sun yourself to draw cards and keep looping that until you can Blue Sun the opponent?
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
This deck looks pretty cool, but how does it combo off exactly? I see how it can make a *****load of mana, but how are you replenishing your hand, and drawing cards? Do you just tutor for Blue Sun, Sun yourself to draw cards and keep looping that until you can Blue Sun the opponent?
That's generally what I do. Between Drift of Phantasms, Time Reversal, and Merchant Scroll we can find a Blue Sun or something else to replenish our hand. I generally do Blue Sun myself for around 20 mid combo just to make sure I have enough fuel.
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This deck looks pretty cool, but how does it combo off exactly? I see how it can make a *****load of mana, but how are you replenishing your hand, and drawing cards? Do you just tutor for Blue Sun, Sun yourself to draw cards and keep looping that until you can Blue Sun the opponent?
This is exactly how you do it.
On that note, I have been working pretty hard and have 90% of the "How to Play" section done. It is mostly my own thoughts on playing the deck rather than a direct guide of what cards to play when comboing off, but it should be useful for new players reading the Primer. Expect it up in the next day or so.
I also went 1-2 tonight as Wednesday Modern. There were not as man players as last time, but I still took down a match with some amazing clutch plays and topdecks. I found some more weaknesses of the deck, and had two turn totaling about 35 minutes of our 50 minute rounds. I'll get around to posting my report sometime soon after I fix up the Primer a bit more.
Omg ive had some turns take me 20 minutes too! Its enjoyable to see how pissed the other player gets. On that note I finally have the entire deck built except for 1 Omniscience which im picking up tomorrow. I will be taking this to FNM and I will write up how all my games went.
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Drift of Phantasms can tutor Early Harvest, Blue Sun's Zenith, Heartbeat of Spring. Explore and Utopia Sprawl ramp, Explore is insane while comboing. Usually a turn 4 kill. Can kill with emrakul or Blue Sun's Zenith.
Drift of Phantasms can tutor Early Harvest, Blue Sun's Zenith, Heartbeat of Spring. Explore and Utopia Sprawl ramp, Explore is insane while comboing. Usually a turn 4 kill. Can kill with emrakul or Blue Sun's Zenith.
Swapping Tribe Elder for Utopia Sprawl might not be a bad idea to try out, that way we could get our black mana for Mystical Teachings and our White for Terminus. Also it's 1 cmc will work well next to Search for tomorrow. Down side is we look less like a scapeshift deck in the early turns.
Why Slight of Hand over Serum Visions? Also is the single enter the infinit worth it? You don't have a way to fetch it out of your deck, so the only way to pick it up is drawing it off a blue sun, which is pretty much like casting enter at that point.
Utopia Sprawl is worth it, can help even in the middle of comboing and gives more turn 1 plays, Sleight of Hand is better while comboing than Serum Visions. Enter the Infinite simply wins the game, generate 14 mana play it, then Emrakul them and/or BSZ them after generating 100+ mana, I was playing two but decided to play a 3rd Serum Visions.
Im running Enter the Infinite and Omniscience in my list. They might seem like "win more" cards but for me they usually put the game away on the spot and I can just breeze through the rest of the game.
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Utopia Sprawl is worth it, can help even in the middle of comboing and gives more turn 1 plays, Sleight of Hand is better while comboing than Serum Visions. Enter the Infinite simply wins the game, generate 14 mana play it, then Emrakul them and/or BSZ them after generating 100+ mana, I was playing two but decided to play a 3rd Serum Visions.
Im running Enter the Infinite and Omniscience in my list. They might seem like "win more" cards but for me they usually put the game away on the spot and I can just breeze through the rest of the game.
My only question about it was how do you draw it? If its in the top few cards and you pick it up I can see it being really good and a time saver too. But what if its in the bottom 10 cards of your deck? You are going to end up using BSZ to draw 15-20 cards anyway, at which point its irreverent if its in your hand or not.
Well with my deck, I NEVER burn out mid combo. I can Blue Sun myself but its often to find my Omniscience, then once I cast that I already have enough fuel and cantrips to find the Enter. Sometimes I get one of them in my opening hand and it kinda sucks but they are both 1 ofs and it doesn't harm the deck. In my honest opinion, I don't think my list im running could win as consistently or quickly without them.
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Im going to make 2 versions and test both. Will post results.
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Initial impressions just reading through this (excellent and constructive) thread are the usual things: Dictate costs too much mana, I loathe Time Reversal, and there's no hope vs. aggro except for a quick combo-off, which Heartbeat decks are generally faster at.
Regardless, lots of good work put into this thread, it's very impressive.
By playing more heartbeat over dictate, have you found opponents take over the game with the bonus mana and our "low" count of counter spells?
for the agro match i think you need to get a little lucky, and then sideboard in terminus in the second game. There may be a better option such as fire-spout or something, but terminus can hit every creature which is nice.
Quick Edit: I feel like this deck is open to changes, such as you suggested swapping the dictates for heartbeats and what not, we just need to have more people tossing in ideas as opposed to these "this deck is bad give up on it" comments.
Second Edit: the version in this article http://www.starcitygames.com/article/23380_Combo-In-Modern--Part-2.html looks like what I started out for this, with more of a gifts package to get the needed cards to win, including the singleton Praetor's Counsel
I build my Heartbeat versions around winning the turn I drop Heartbeat, after an EOT Gifts pile. It's very consistent, but more vulnerable to GY hate, but not to such a degree that it makes the version unplayable.
Is Terminus really the way to go, though? I feel that if you need to side into a 3rd color to deal with aggro, that's not a good sign. I'd look into things that are in our base colors and we already run, like more Reality Spasm or even Gigadrowse.
And don't get me wrong, I don't think this deck is bad at all! I feel that Early Harvest + Mana Doubler: The Deck has the potential to break into Modern a bit, much like how the Amulet Bouncelands / Restore Balance had a few good showings.
The comment about people being mean wasn't for you, it was for those "other people".
I really like that hearbeat costs 3 and it can definitely speed up the combo. I switched to Dictate & I think the primer mentions it also, that dictate won't die to those pesky abrupt decays, and if you play it on their end step on turn 4-5 you get to un tap with 10 mana available compared to what is remaining after casting the heartbeat.
And as for Terminus, I currently want to play Bant for Glittering Wish to wish for Sphinx's Rev, but I feel like this is a bad idea to start doing before we make the deck more consistent
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I agree, I think the deck is open to change. Any ideas are good ideas! On that topic though, didn't I already mention Praetor's Counsel somewhere at the start of the thread? Or in the Primer? Every time I see it I want to include it, but it just costs soooo much.
On a side note, the dick on Starcity is similar to how mine originally came about. Started out as a gifts package deck...
Mind posting your lists. I've been trying to find as many game-winning gifts piles as I could but none seem to be "perfect." Like I was thinking along the lines of [Dictate, Heartbeat, Snapcaster Mage, Noxious Revival] or [Early Harvest, Reality Spasm, Rude Awakening, and Snapcaster Mage].
I am looking into Early Frost as a way to Timewalk decks in the first three turns. We can also lock them down by casting it on the first main phase, then passing to combat to empty their pool. Besides, I feel as though the deck needs as many cards in it with the name "Early" as possible.
Damn right the primer mentions it. As for the Bant list. I am thinking that Bant and RUG are the two routes that the deck can take. I was tossing around a BUG list but it seemed to fall short every time. If we get different people taking different lists in different directions could be good.
I have been looking at this too. I am liking 20 lands as it reduces mulligans. I was also looking at 22 lands with 1-2 Explores maindeck.
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More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
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On another note... Wednesday Night Modern #2 is tomorrow!! Here is the decklist that I am planning on bringing. They are allowing proxies at this store so any last minute comments on it can be added to the deck even if I don't have the cards on hand. Right now my list is looking like:
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
8 Island
Instants & Sorceries
4 Serum Visions
4 Telling Time
1 Time Reversal
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Merchant Scroll
3 Mystical Teachings
4 Remand
2 Swan Song
4 Early Harvest
2 Reality Spasm
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantments
4 Dictate of Karametra
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Cryptic Command
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Plains
2 Bound // Determined
2 Ætherize
1 Research // Development
2 Dismember
1 Squelch
I'm going to keep the deck sort of like it was last week. I am going for a very consistent build. I have upped the number of lands to 19, by adding a forest that wasn't there before. I dropped one Time Reversal for a Snapcaster Mage. I am debating putting in an Explore instead of the forest, and a Swan Song instead of the Time Reversal. Any thoughts before tomorrow will help. Also a better sideboard could help the deck preform better too.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Change r&d in the sideboard, it's not doing anything for youunless you cangetit into your deck in game 1.
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
8 Island
Instants & Sorceries
4 Serum Visions
4 Telling Time
1 Time Reversal OR 1 Cryptic Command
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Teachings
4 Remand
2 Swan Song
4 Early Harvest
2 Reality Spasm
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantments
4 Dictate of Karametra
1 Skyscribing
1 Cryptic Command
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Bound // Determined
1 Ætherize
3 Devastation Tide
2 Dismember
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
The plan is to bounce everything with the sideboard. And a panic button Emrakul because 15 mana is chump change.
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More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
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That's generally what I do. Between Drift of Phantasms, Time Reversal, and Merchant Scroll we can find a Blue Sun or something else to replenish our hand. I generally do Blue Sun myself for around 20 mid combo just to make sure I have enough fuel.
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On that note, I have been working pretty hard and have 90% of the "How to Play" section done. It is mostly my own thoughts on playing the deck rather than a direct guide of what cards to play when comboing off, but it should be useful for new players reading the Primer. Expect it up in the next day or so.
I also went 1-2 tonight as Wednesday Modern. There were not as man players as last time, but I still took down a match with some amazing clutch plays and topdecks. I found some more weaknesses of the deck, and had two turn totaling about 35 minutes of our 50 minute rounds. I'll get around to posting my report sometime soon after I fix up the Primer a bit more.
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More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
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4 Heartbeat of Spring
4 Hidden Strings
4 Early Harvest
4 Rude Awakening
4 Drift of Phantasms
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Explore
3 Sleight of Hand
4 Time Reversal
1 Enter the Infinite
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Misty Rainforest
9 Island
9 Forest
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Dispel
3 Hurkl's Recall
3 Nature's Claim
4 Pact of Negation
3 Void Snare
Drift of Phantasms can tutor Early Harvest, Blue Sun's Zenith, Heartbeat of Spring. Explore and Utopia Sprawl ramp, Explore is insane while comboing. Usually a turn 4 kill. Can kill with emrakul or Blue Sun's Zenith.
Swapping Tribe Elder for Utopia Sprawl might not be a bad idea to try out, that way we could get our black mana for Mystical Teachings and our White for Terminus. Also it's 1 cmc will work well next to Search for tomorrow. Down side is we look less like a scapeshift deck in the early turns.
Why Slight of Hand over Serum Visions? Also is the single enter the infinit worth it? You don't have a way to fetch it out of your deck, so the only way to pick it up is drawing it off a blue sun, which is pretty much like casting enter at that point.
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My only question about it was how do you draw it? If its in the top few cards and you pick it up I can see it being really good and a time saver too. But what if its in the bottom 10 cards of your deck? You are going to end up using BSZ to draw 15-20 cards anyway, at which point its irreverent if its in your hand or not.
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