Counter-Cat is an aggro-control strategy that combines efficient creatures, soft permission, and burn to keep opponents one step behind victory and aggress them into early losses.
Originally innovated by Channel Fireball at Pro Tour Philadelphia, the original Counter Cat deck abused Green Sun's Zenith to ramp into beaters and assure a stream of relevant creatures throughout a game. It ran Bant Charm for versatility and other counterspells in the sideboard:
Counter-Cat trades some of Leyton's Zoo elements for more efficient creatures and a Threshier gameplan of Draw, Attack, Go. Tempo in its truest sense, the deck pressures opponents early with Delver of Secrets and Wild Nacatl. It hides these creatures behind a heavy permission suite and backs up their brute force with reach:
Why play Counter-Cat?
Magic offers players a variety of existentially satisfying experiences. Attacking with a 3-power one-drop on turn 2 with Remand in hand is one of them. Wild Nacatl doubles the Delver player's chances of enjoying such fulfillment, and Blue offers the Zoo player attractive answers to sweeper effects. Pilot Counter-Cat well, and its infamous common beaters will show you why they've dominated competitive Magic since they hit cardboard. But don't expect forgiveness for sloppy play. The deck demands you manage every resource with care and skill.
Gameplan
We neatly divide our gameplan into two phases. As with most Tempo decks, Counter-Cat's chance of winning decreases exponentially over time as soft permission loses value, big creatures outclass our threats, and expensive effects stabilize the board. Not unlike Zoo, we initially use burn spells to clear a path for our bang-for-buck creatures. After those have eaten away a reasonable amount of life points, Snapcaster Mage flashes the burn back to close out the game. The key difference between Counter-Cat and Zoo is our ability to extend the early-game by combining our low curve with counterspells, allowing us to out-tempo opponents.
Phase 1 aims to protect an early threat with soft permission as it chips away at opponents; Phase 2 finishes them off with Tarmgoyf, Hooting Mandrills, and burn.
In the early game, Counter-Cat must land a threat. A hand with Delver of Secrets or Wild Nacatl is usually keepable, but Tarmogoyf and a cantrip will do. In highly interactive matchups, threatless hands work as burn and counters pave the way for an unkillable fatty. One-landers generally work so long as they have either some form of library manipulation or double Delver, but they improve on the draw. What to counter/remove depends on the matchup, but in this stage of the game, spend burn on opposing creatures so our own deal maximum damage. The longer they stay protected, the lesser the chance of defeat. Casting Boros Charm to save an attacking 3/2 forces opponents to waste cards and deals over 4 damage in the long run, so we prefer the Charm in this phase over Tribal Flames or Lightning Helix.
Between Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, and Snapcaster Mage, Counter-Cat boasts significant reach once it exhausts its threats. When opponents approach 8 life, burn just ends the game. Boros Charm comes in on end steps for a massive 4 damage. Tribal Flames deals even more.
Deckbuilding guidelines
Main Deck tightness affords little flexibilty. Counter-Cat needs at least 15 creatures and a minimum of 6 counterspells to function effectively, running between 17 and 19 lands. In most Delver decks, the Instant and Sorcery count should never drop below 23; in this one, not below 25.
Delver's induction into Counter Cat drastically changes the deck. Unlike Utter-Leyton, we can't fit 22 lands, 18 creatures, or Planeswalkers; Delver of Secrets requires a critical mass of Instants and Sorceries to ensure his reliability as a 3-power one-drop. We can achieve this effect via the Turbo Xerox rule (explained here and backed up by math here), which loosely states that for every 4 one- or two-mana cantrips in a deck, you can cut 2 lands. Inversely, Wild Nacatl obliges us to run enough lands that we can guarantee his own 3 power by the second turn. In this way, Delver and Nacatl battle for deckbuilding space: if we max out on cantrips, we'll have trouble buffing the Cat, and if we run 20+ lands, Delver becomes unreliable. I've found through extensive testing that the deck wants between 17 and 19 lands, cantrip amount depending.
Since we can't run too many lands, and often operate on only two or three, mana-intensive choices like Cryptic Command become unsuitable for the archetype. Snapcaster Mage tops out the curve flashing back 2-mana spells. Vendilion Clique as a one-off breaks this rule in some metas.
If you can theoretically cut a land for every two cantrips, Delver makes it alluring to max out on draw in the form of Gitaxian Probe, Serum Visions, Thought Scour, Remand, and Sleight of Hand. But running only 14 lands complicates supporting 4 colors. Consider the mana base: 8 fetchlands only leave room for 6 other lands, and if one is basic, it becomes impossible to run one of each on-color dual. In addition, too many one-mana cantrips increase your reliance on casting one early to find a second, which hinders board development; we want a threat on the table as soon as the game starts. First-turn mana spent on draw smoothing can't cast legs. For these reasons, don't go above 8 one-mana cantrips.
Cantrips do have other functions. In the absence of a 3-power one-drop, any of the first-turn cantrips (with a fetch land) produces a Lightning Bolt-resistantTarmogoyf on turn 2. Cantrips also synergize with Snapcaster Mage and Delve by quickly filling the Graveyard and drawing into more castables. Serum Visions helps our gameplan by filtering draws and setting up Delver flips, and Gitaxian Probe gives perfect information to maximize the potency of Spell Pierce and Spell Snare. Thought Scour does a great Dark Ritual impression for Delve and even messes up enemy Scry and Academy Ruins. Sleight of Hand offers immediate selection, but lacks additional uses, so leave it out.
Card choices
To boost Delver reliability and flashback potential, we only run Creatures, Instants, Sorceries, and Lands.
Creatures
Our creatures must either apply pressure or provide matchless utility. As a result, space is at a premium and costly hitters like Vendilion Clique get benched for cheaper clocks.
First-turn clocks
Delver of Secrets: Delver has terrorized constructed since his release. Poster boy and yardstick for Tempo threats.
Wild Nacatl: The namesake Cat got banned before Delver of Secrets even saw print, but its readmission to Modern gives us the two most efficient one-drops in the format.
Finishers
Tarmogoyf: The Lhurgoyf's infamous efficiency is unparalleled in Magic. Tempo strategies, as demonstrated by Canadian Thresh, bloom a 4/5 extremely quickly. Besides surviving Lightning Bolt, Tarmogoyf's main strength lies in his versatility: he supplies serious hurt turning sideways or walls aggressing creatures. A must-deal-with threat, Tarmogoyf also opens opponents up to all sorts of two-for-ones: there's no coming back from double-Bolting a Tarmogoyf into Spell Pierce.
Snapcaster Mage: A Tempo mainstay since his dominance in Standard, Tiago enables the format's most degenerate interaction: Bolt-Snap-Bolt. He also flashes back permission and makes for game-ending reach in conjunction with Boros Charm or Tribal Flames.
Spells
Like Zoo, Counter-Cat runs removal that doubles as reach, led by the mighty Lightning Bolt. White gives us peerless removal, Blue nets us the best countermagic this side of 8th Edition, and rainbow colors let us run Tribal Flames.
Spells in Counter-Cat serve one (or more) of four purposes. They either clear the board for threats to get in, protect threats and disrupt the opponent's gameplan, end the game by dealing large chunks of damage, or help the pilot find the kind of spell he needs. While four colors allots us a bevy of high-impact cards, such as Ajani Vengeant, if those don't directly advance this focused gameplan for a minimal mana investment, they have no place here.
Path to Exile: Best unconditional removal in the format. Easy to cast or flash back, and profitably removes Kitchen Finks, Wurmcoil Engine, Griselbrand... well, everything. Run 3-4 depending on the prevalence of Persist/beefy (4+ toughness) creatures in your meta.
Lightning Helix: A fetch-forgiving Lightning Bolt. Helix mops up aggro decks and balances out multiple Probes. Consider at least a pair MD in aggressive metas.
Spell Pierce: Early pressure punishes Modern decks that fail to play on curve. Pierce benefits greatly from this, providing immense tempo by countering gamebreakers like Wrath of God, Liliana of the Veil, and Karn, Liberated... for one.
Remand: The lifeblood of Modern tempo decks. Remand gets the nod over Mana Leak in these archetypes since it shines with its controller ahead on the board. We play our threats in the first two turns of the game, so Remand frequently Time Walks us into victory.
Mana Leak: Snapcaster Mage and cantrips reward variety, and Leak deals with gross cards permanently. I currently favor a 2/3 Remand/Leak split.
Serum Visions: Our cantrip of choice. No whining about how it's not Ponder or Preordain; Serum Visions is one of the top 10 most played cards in Modern and its price has risen to 7 dollars a copy. At the end of the day, self-replacing card selection is that nuts. While all cantrips lower our land count, thin the deck, and enable Delve, only Visions sets up draws and Delver flips.
Gitaxian Probe: Perfect information strengthens our soft permission.
Faithless Looting: Not nearly as good without Treasure Cruise, but still okay in grindy matchups. Primarily used as a late-game draw spell to filter out dead fetchlands (no targets remaining in library) or soft counters (opponents can pay for Mana Leak). More on the subtleties of casting Looting here.
It's sometimes right to play Wild Nacatl first, since it attacks for 3 more reliably than Delver the turn after it comes down. But here, you fetch Hallowed Fountain and cast Delver. This way, you can use the Stomping Ground to cast either Bolt or Nacatl on turn 2 and the Blue mana from Fountain to cast Serum Visions, OR hold up Mana Leak mana if the matchup calls for it. Had you played Stomping Ground first for that early Nacatl, the next turn, given no Bolt target, you're forced to Shock yourself to cast anything and still find yourself stuck with a useless Stomping Ground if you cast Delver or Serum Visions. The deck's success depends enormously on early mana management. Practice makes perfect, but you never want to get stuck on lands you can't use.
Here's a chart on possible land configurations (*=Tribal Flames builds):
Shocks
We choose Shock lands over other duals since they reliably ETB untapped, get searched out by fetches, and pump Cat. Run the Core of 4, maybe the 2 Additional, and always the full 7 in Tribal Flames builds.
Breeding Pool + Sacred Foundry: ADDITIONAL SHOCKS. Together, they only cast cards with a casting cost of UW, WG, RU, and RG. No Helix or Boros Charm off these two. Best relegated to Tribal Flames versions or to decks running "off-color" spells like Simic Charm/Qasali Pridemage. Additional Shocks also increase Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter resilience, but running them means less fetches, more lands, or both (see chart).
Basics
Basic lands let us survive Blood Moon and recover from an otherwise devastating Path to Exile or Ghost Quarter. Run 1-2 depending on personal preference, but consult the chart if you're on Tribal Flames.
Fetches
More fetches means better mana, bigger Goyfs, cheaper Delve. Too many means unstable mana, low life, dead cards. Run 10-12 depending on land count and distribution (see chart): 7-8 Main Fetches (including 4 Misty Rainforest) and 2-4 Flex Fetches.
*Take care when choosing Flex Fetches: Although Flooded Strand gets 7/9 possible lands, and Mesa just gets 5/9, in builds without Additional Shocks or Tribal Flamesthey actually fetch the same amount. Carefully compare your own build and manabase to the sections below to choose an ideal fetch spread.
Polluted Delta/Verdant Catacombs: Not even worth it with Tribal Flames. The Swamp clause that gets Watery Grave might as well be an Island clause. These only fetch 4 Shocks of the 9 we ever run and they never get both Basics or the full Core/Additional Shock suite.
Sideboard options Serum Visions and Snapcaster Mage support one-offs in the side. Four colors comes with the best hosers in the format, both for wider archetypes and for specific decks. As always, sideboards should be tailored to specific metas. These choices shine in the archetype I've included them under, but have other uses as well (I've omitted a Vs. Tempo section, for example, since I list all the relevant sideboard cards under Vs. Affinity).
Qasali Pridemage: A Counter-Cat veteran, Pridemage threatens problematic permanents while doubling as beatdown. In play, it even deals with resolved Blood Moon. Mana-intensive to blow stuff up, but the clock rocks when you don't need to Naturalize. GW can prove hard to produce (see Lands).
Fiery Justice: Devastates popular aggro decks such as Zoo and Merfolk. 5 life is nothing to 4-for-1 a deck that can’t generate new cards. Think of it as mega-Electrolyze. Hard to cast off 4-Shock manabases.
Spellskite: A classic answer to Bogles. Also good vs. Burn, UWR, Aggro, Affinity, and Twin.
Engineered Explosives: Wipes out many enchantments at a time, and kills creatures without Totem Armor. Actually explosive vs. Tokens. Disrupts problematic permanents before they even come online.
Cruel Edict: Narrow in its applications, but blows out nutty Bogle draws. Requires black mana, so usable exclusively in Tribal Flames builds.
Grafdigger's Cage: A non-bo with Snapcaster Mage, but this card totally shuts down Pod synergies. It even cripples Persist creatures. Also nice vs. Dredge and other graveyard decks.
Aven Mindcensor: The bird does well against any decks that search a lot, like Tron, but could prove tough to support in land-light builds. Counters Scapeshift.
Huntmaster of the Fells: Especially potent against grindy decks without Lightning Bolt. He's only Decayable half the time, and generates a ton of value if you don't expect counterspells.
Negate: Counters key cards and can’t be played around. Great vs. Planeswalkers.
Isochron Scepter: Insane as a one-off in any grindy matchup. Generates tons of advantage with Remand or poses as an unkillable threat with any burn spell. Board it back out for G3 if you expect artifact hate, blanking hate for virtual card advantage.
Feed the Clan: Dedicated Burn hate that gets a little ridiculous with a Ferocious trigger. Superb in with Hooting Mandrills.
Hallow: Spell Pierce is great against Burn since it counters a bolt for one mana. Hallow counters two bolts for one mana. That's a 6-life swing. Target Searing Blaze for 12, and Snap it back for a quick concession (concussion?).
TarmoTwin puts up more of a fight than U/R Twin, since Tempo is harder to beat for us than Combo. But we beat them at that game, too: we have more threats and a more reliable way to deal with the Lhurgoyf than Flame Slash in Path to Exile. Midrange-y versions with Huntmaster of the Fells and Keranos have trouble keeping up with Remand.
Gameplan
In the first few turns of the game, during which the Twin deck can't combo off, we want to play as aggressively as possible with our threats. It's fine to tap out on turns 1-3 for Tarmogoyf. After establishing board presence, all we need to do is hold up mana. If we can't stick a threat until after turn 4, it's best to save mana to ruin Oops-I-Wins. We have more business than Twin here since they draw into clunky combo pieces all game; when we finally draw a Tarmogoyf, we just push it through with countermagic and start two-for-oneing a desperate opponent (who will throw two burn spells at it turn after turn). Watch out for Flame Slash, which Thought Scour counters.
Best/worst cards Remand flourishes against any Snapcaster Mage deck, but it excels vs. Twin. Enough of their spells cost 3+ mana to keep you Time Walking all game. Tarmogoyf is extremely hard for Twin to deal with and, like Remand, forces bad plays.
The scariest card Twin has is Blood Moon (Don't worry about Thrun, he's too slow). If you anticipate the hoser, you can easily play around it with Remand, Spell Pierce, and enchantment hate. Gitaxian Probe also tips you off.
Overview
As long as he knows the plan, a Counter-Cat pilot shouldn’t struggle with UWR Control. Geist of Saint-Traft/Restoration Angel versions commit the unfortunate mistake of tapping out into Remand + Tarmogoyf, and draw-go versions simply bite it to steady, sequenced threats.
Gameplan
You want to be doing three things in this matchup:
- Playing your threats one at a time. Force the UWR pilot to out-tempo himself dealing with your clocks. Getting all your guys killed at once sucks, but an opponent sinking 4 mana into an uncounterable Wrath of God to kill a single Delver of Secrets shouldn't upset you in the slightest. So play them one at a time! More threats will come. Constant, one-creature pressure wins the game against this deck.
- Playing around opposing disruption. Gitaxian Probe obviously helps worlds here, but if you don't have it, UWR isn't that hard to read. If you know you can slide a threat in next turn, but not this one, save it. If you don't see an opportunity in the near future when you can slide your Goyf in under countermagic, and have no pressure on the table, just play it. UWR will draw lands forever as you draw one-mana Russet Wolves. Generally you'll have a hand full of gas and they'll have a grip of lands, and after you make them sub-optimally play all their cards, you'll be way up on advantage and can just roll over them.
- Maximizing your own disruption. In other words, pay attention. Know (this knowledge best achieved by grinding) when you need to hold up mana to protect your threat, and when it's more important to save that Spell Snare for a Snapcaster Mage. If you have another threat in hand, let them deal with your guy. Let them tap out to counter your next threat if you can cast Tarmogoyf. I've won many games against UWR Control on just two or three lands to their 10. You gain 4 mana worth of tempo by Spell Piercing a Batterskull (not to mention a Sphinx's Revelation), and that particular interaction should stand for the whole matchup. Another good example: Path to Exile on Celestial Colonnade (which, incidentally, leaves you with a window for Tarmogoyf). If they're throwing Electrolyze at you on your End Step, just take two damage. Save your countermagic for the cards that really matter, like those that remove your guys or put UWR up on cards. Be patient, and all those fancy cantrips will draw them a whole lot of Flooded Strand.
A note on mana denial: UWR Control gets a bit trickier if they have an intimate knowledge of your manabase, in which case you should hover around 3 perfect lands (i.e. complimentary Core Shocks and basic Island) to avoid getting cut off White or Red via Tectonic Edge. Luckily, the UWR pilot has no idea what the hell he's playing against most of the time.
Best/worst cards
Counterspells are the best cards in this matchup. Spell Pierce wins out over Remand, especially against versions with Planeswalkers, but the latter more effectively stops Flasback or Delve. Casting it on your own spells that UWR tries to Spell Snare also works wonders. Your best threat is Tarmogoyf; then Hooting Mandrills, then Wild Nacatl, then Delver of Secrets (which dies to Electrolyze pre-flip). Goyf lives through everything except Path to Exile, and UWR pilots will frequently double-Bolt him. Snapcaster Mage creates huge card advantage swings in your favor, especially with conditional counterspells (hitting two expensive UWR cards with a single Spell Pierce pushes them out of a game). Since games go long, Faithless Looting turns dead cards into free draws, and Isochron Scepter beats unsuspecting UWR players (e.g. all of them) pretty handily.
Sideboarding
Bring in your counterspells, side out your burn. Keep at least 3 Path to Exile and a Combust for the big white dudes. Boros Charm blanks uncounterable wipes, saves Goyfs from double-Bolts, and kills low-life opponents. Spellskite eats a good chunk of removal spells before finally dying and does a great job of buffering a Cat as you go to town. Mutagenic Growth saves your one-drops from Lightning Bolt for free, often even pushing through extra damage in the process.
Overview
Affinity plays lots of tiny dudes and attacks with them. It often ramps into these tiny dudes so it can drop its entire hand as early as the first turn and overwhelm opponents. Like most small-aggro decks, it has an inherent weakness to red removal like Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix, which we cast all day - especially with Snapcaster Mage. We also get access to the single greatest anti-Affinity card, Ancient Grudge.
Gameplan
Our goal in this matchup is to destroy as many creatures as possible. This goal takes precedence over our regular gameplan of stick-a-threat; we play defensively here because Affinity simply out-aggros us. Once their threats are gone, though, Wild Nacatl crashes in for easy wins. A trickier component of the matchup: knowing which removal spell to cast on which threat. Cast Lightning Helix over Bolt when you can, since it costs more mana. But watch out for Arcbound Ravager, which counters the lifegain by sacrificing the target. Save Path to Exile for Master of Etherium and whatever Arcbound Ravager grows. We can easily blow out newer or riskier Affinity pilots by Bolting modular targets.
Best/worst cards Remand sucks here since Affinity plays everything for free. Boros Charm never rescues threats in this matchup, and we don't want to race (Tribal Flames is fine since it hits creatures). Spell Pierce counters Thoughtcast and Cranial Plating, and Spell Snare hard-counters half the deck. Tarmogoyf is our best clock, a 5/6 in this matchup. By the time we need a threat, his mana cost doesn't matter.
Sideboarding
Board out Delvers, Remand, and Spell Pierce for all the removal you can find (generally over half the sideboard). Destructive Revelry, Qasali Pridemage, and Ancient Grudge all have outside applications, and all completely trash Affinity. Fiery Justice takes out a full board. You might encounter Etched Champion, but all he does is block late-game 3/3s. Blood Moon beats you if you don't wait for it; Affinity will keep bad hands and expend extra resources to ramp into the enchantment, letting Spell Pierce win you games single-handedly.
Unfavorable matchups
Overview
Employing an attrition strategy, BGx decks aim to 1-for-1 opponents until the board states permits a topdecked Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, or Liliana of the Veil to carry the game away. Jund splashes R into the BG shell for Terminate and Lightning Bolt; Junk splashes W for Lingering Souls. Games against these decks are very grindy and have historically consisted of races to finishers (in our case, Tarmogoyf). Treasure Cruise swung it in our favor, but with the card banned, we're back to trying to keep Liliana off the table.
Gameplan
We follow the normal plan against these decks, but our Phase 1 ends a lot sooner since BGx packs so much removal. As a result, most burn should be aimed at the face; other than Scavenging Ooze, BGx has no way to gain back life. Resolved Confidants actually help us out in Phase 2 but should be killed swiftly if we still have guys, since they draw BGx ways to remove our threats or block if the opponent prefers.
vs. The Rock: Spell Snare counters Confidant, Goyf, and Scooze. Lightning Bolt/Helix hits Treetop Village for big tempo swings. Path helps your guys not get outclassed, and casting it on Phyrexian Obliterator feels incredible. Against Tectonic Edge versions: get perfect mana off two Core shocks, fetch a basic Island, and never cast a fourth land unless they're manascrewed themselves and you have ample pressure.
vs. Jund: They keep in Anger of the Gods against us, which can work in our favor since Goyf/Mandrills are so big and it eats Spell Pierce anyway. Mutagenic Growth also helps here. If you're expecting Anger, play threats one at a time and force Jund to cast AotG/Decay to deal with them. Bolting Raging Ravine rocks. Watch out for Fulminator Mage by either pressuring early or holding up Remand/Leak/Boros Charm.
vs. Jund: Draw out Anger of the Gods and Abrupt Decay on a single creature to help out-tempo the Jund player (they'll spend much more mana killing your threats than you do casting them). Keep up Bolt for Raging Ravine if you predict it, and remember you can bluff one.
Sideboarding
Extra burn slays in these matchups since we transition to Phase 2 so rapidly. Delve enablers can come out as BGx does all the work for you, but Faithless Looting holds value given the grind. Boros Charm takes out shiny new Lilianas EOT. Unconditional removal (i.e. Valorous Stance) also helps. Helix for Confidant/Manlands/Reach, and make sure you have all your Spell Snare maindeck for games 2 and 3. Destructive Revelry deals with Batterskull and Courser of Kruphix if you're expecting those.
Primer archives
As the deck evolves, I'll dump outdated versions of the primer here for reference and history, along with the date the information became irrelevant.
Why play Counter-Cat?
Up until recently, Delver of Secrets saw limited play as the centerpiece of a UR deck with Young Pyromancer. While this one deck still casts all the Delvers in Modern, the famously underrated Insect has all but infested the format. This predicament begs the question: why not just play UR Delver? Maybe you like the raw power of our cards. Perhaps you enjoy winning with rogue decks. You might just want to stomp all those bandwagoning UR Delver newcomers. Counter-Cat has an excellent matchup against the format's other Tempo strategies, and holds steady ground against Modern's current boogeyman, Burn. Against non-Treasure Cruise decks, we have the added expediency of generating tremendous card advantage for a single Blue mana.
Deckbuilding guidelines
A Future Sight mechanic fleshed out in Khans of Tarkir, Delve allows players to cast spells for way less than fair. Undercosted spells (i.e. for a 3/3) define the archetype, and since the Graveyard swells so quickly in a tempo shell, Counter-Cat always plays at least one Delve card. Only two mesh well enough with the deck to merit play.
Hooting Mandrills: A 4/4 for , or Tombstalker lite. Great when you need extra threats. More on him in Creatures.
Treasure Cruise: Draw 3 for . Nothing new. Pulls you back into lost games or secures favorable positions in stalemates. More on TC in Spells.
Quantity of each depends on your personal list and meta. Cruise makes a splash (lol) in fields of BGx and control; Mandrills is at his furriest (lol!) against Lightning Bolt decks and tokens. Dig Through Time, while powerful, is wrong for the deck; mana efficiency is at a premium here, and there are better things you can do with two Blue mana (i.e. Cruise + Spell Pierce).
Guidelines for Delve inclusion
Dedicated Delve enablers (Thought Scour and Faithless Looting, both discussed in Spells below), with extra fetchlands and cantrips, let you run more Delve cards.
Two Delve cards: The deck supports two Delve cards on its own, even with just 9 fetches.
Three Delve cards: 10+ fetches, 3+ cantrips, and 1+ Delve enabler.
Four Delve cards: 11+ fetches, 3+ cantrips, and 2+ Delve enablers.
Five+ Delve cards: Those undercosted spells I mentioned are also highly conditional. For Counter-Cat to work, Delver of Secrets has to be 3/2 as often as possible. Spell Pierce has to counter a spell as often as possible. In a best-case scenario, we could resolve five Delve spells in a game. But our Delve cards should cost 1 mana as often as possible, and since multiples cannibalize each other, playing more than 4 greatly reduces their consistency.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
With Serum/Snap, you really want variety. Even if you preferred more burn, Tribal Flames/Boros Charm main is a better idea. You could always cut the countermagic entirely, but then you're playing Domain Zoo. The best spell spread for this deck is 8-10 counterspells and 6-10 burn spells (including Bolt).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
As far as sideboard options go it looks like you forgot one of the decks toughest matchups, Gb/x! I really like increasing my threat density in that matchup so i've been running Geist of Saint Traft out of the sideboard with a lot of success. Engineered explosives is usually really awesome here too. Goyf is usually a must answer so Chained to the Rocks works as a 5th path which can go a long way in the Pod matchup as well.
In my experience, the BGx matchup isn't that bad, it is around 50/50. They start (normally) with 15 life and an early thread, which deals 4-6 damage is most of the times sufficient to kill the opp with the burn part of the deck (I play 8 Burnspells, 4 Lightning Bolts, 3 Boros Charm, 1 Lightning Helix and 2 Snapcasters). If they don't play greedy (so no excessive Fetch/Shock/thoughtseize action) than the matchup becomes more difficult.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: @ashtonkutcher, nice primer. I get to play a ton of magic in the near future, so I will get to give some input (especially the 5c version (but atm I think the 5c version is to greedy)).
PPS: @Lantern, there is an old thread but I suggest, that it doesn't get merged, since it only has some few posts and nothing relevant (and we have here an amazing primer )
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
@Lemonbuster thanks, I'll add BGx to the sideboard section in the next couple days. Also going to work on some matchup analyses since I have a few of them down to a science (Pod, Tron, Folk, etc.). As far as extra threats go, have you tried Hooting Mandrills yet? He's killer against BGx since he tramples over Lingering Souls and doesn't get hit with Decay or Lightning Bolt. Shrinking enemy Goyfs and nullifying Scavenging Ooze by eating all your own dead dudes is pretty relevant, too. Once I cast Mandrills on t3, bolted a formerly bolt-proof Tarmogoyf, and kept up Spell Pierce mana to hit Liliana the next turn (the dream!). In my experience Geist is way too slow and mana intensive for this deck, but I have tested with it quite a bit. It basically requires you to run more lands (20-21) which just isn't feasible IMO. Also, tapping out for Geist turn 3 sucks. The gameplan here is to drop a threat turns 1-2 and then beat down with counterspell mana up. I get that other Delver decks have played Geist to great effect as an alternate beater, but you need to remember that we have 8 Delvers. We don't need to fall back on Plan B as much as they do, and Geist would be our Plan C anyway (behind Goyf). Plus Mandrills that makes 6 Goyfs, and I think we're set for beaters after that.
Interesting story - I was playing against UR Delver today and they cast Vapor Snag on Hooting Mandrillstwice and Remanded him once. Still ended up planting him and trampling over Elementals for the win. I'm still amazed how easy it is to cast him in this deck, but I think 2 is the right number (drawing 3 would probably blow). Still, I'm convinced he's one of the best cards in the deck. I even want to draw him over Tarmogoyf lots of the time.
@Kathal the BGx matchup definitely gets easier with Boros Charm. I like Helixes in this MU too to deal with Confidant and Scavenging Ooze (which can be a real hassle if it gets going, keeping you off Goyf/Mandrills and gaining them a ton of life in the late game). Again, this matchup gets much better with Mandrills.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I started a thread a couple weeks ago on this. Didn't feel like a primer was necessary but if there is one, I'd rather get some discussion going on the deck. I've been playing the deck on and off for something like 6 months. A little after the unban of Nacatl. The idea being that dropping a decent clock on turn 1 followed by infinite tempo would win games. It went 4-0 the second time I played the deck. I've been wanting to refine the list to prep for a GP in February. Here's what I've been running:
I've been liking 19 lands but I may try out going to 18. I don't agree with running 10-12 fetches. It seems excessive. I need to cut Sacred Foundry from my list. I had a couple hands recently where it made getting the right colors off of my opening hand difficult. I highly recommend Noble Hierarch in this deck. Not only does it give you mana advantage and decent mana fixing but Exalted is also extremely relevant in cutting the clock down on the deck. Going from 7 turns to kill to 5 (assuming no other damage/lifegain). Moorland Haunt has been an awesome source of grindy advantage. It was better with Runechanter's Pike but with Grim Lavamancer and Snapcaster, Pike has gotten a bit worse in the deck. Sword of Fire and Ice has been pretty great but 3cmc is a bit awkward.
I like the idea of playing Hooting Mandrills. It won't come down until turn 4+ but costing G for a 4/4 that can't be decayed seems good. I'll have to give that a try next time I play. I didn't like Tarmogoyf in the deck when I played with him. It generally wasn't much bigger than a Nacatl or Delver and having to tap out on turn 2 for it meant sacrificing disruption for the opponent's plays. Outside of Snapcaster (really a 3 or 4 drop in the deck for value) I wanted all my creatures to cost 1 mana.
The flex spots I've been playing with are: 1 Electrolyze, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Grim Lavamancer, 1 Sacred Foundry. I'm wanting to try out Jeskai Charm over Electrolyze and possibly Forked Bolt or Arc Trail over Sacred Foundry. I originally had Ajani Vengeant in the deck who was solid and won games if he landed but I often found myself winning before I needed to resolve him. I wouldn't mind getting a Planeswalker back into the deck (over sword maybe) but I'm unsure of which one to go with. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Garruk Relentless and Sarkhan Vol are others I have considered.
I have been really happy with the core of the deck. I have trouble against Merfolk and Bloom Titan, GBx decks and Control are pretty favorable, Pod decks favorable, Twin decks are about 50/50. Burn and Affinity are about 50/50 game 1 and get much better game 2+. I have really been enjoying the deck. If you play tight, it wins and fast.
I started a thread a couple weeks ago on this. Didn't feel like a primer was necessary but if there is one, I'd rather get some discussion going on the deck. I've been playing the deck on and off for something like 6 months. A little after the unban of Nacatl. The idea being that dropping a decent clock on turn 1 followed by infinite tempo would win games. It went 4-0 the second time I played the deck. I've been wanting to refine the list to prep for a GP in February. Here's what I've been running:
I've been liking 19 lands but I may try out going to 18. I don't agree with running 10-12 fetches. It seems excessive. I need to cut Sacred Foundry from my list. I had a couple hands recently where it made getting the right colors off of my opening hand difficult. I highly recommend Noble Hierarch in this deck. Not only does it give you mana advantage and decent mana fixing but Exalted is also extremely relevant in cutting the clock down on the deck. Going from 7 turns to kill to 5 (assuming no other damage/lifegain). Moorland Haunt has been an awesome source of grindy advantage. It was better with Runechanter's Pike but with Grim Lavamancer and Snapcaster, Pike has gotten a bit worse in the deck. Sword of Fire and Ice has been pretty great but 3cmc is a bit awkward.
Very interesting take. 10-12 fetches are certainly unnecessary with a full playset of Noble Hierarch supporting your mana. I like the Hierarchs, but not playing Tarmogoyf is almost definitely wrong. You'd be better off with Goyfs than Nacatls; the reason to splash W into a typically RUG shell is to have an additional threat in Wild Nacatl (operative term: additional). I'm surprised Goyf wasn't good in your testing but I seriously doubt you tested him extensively enough. He's easily the best card in the deck.
With that in mind, we identify the problem with Hierarch as a spacial one. Adding 4 Goyfs to your list puts us at 20 creatures, way too many for Delver (especially plus noncreature permanents AND 19-21 lands, which you need to make your higher curve function). With the pricier spells like Sword and Thrun and your inclination to try running Planeswalkers, I recommend you try a RUG shell, cutting the Helices and Nacatls for more versatile spells and Tarmogoyf. I base this suggestion on the premise that Tarmogoyf is better in this deck than Nacatl, and I'll stand by that premise TIL I DIEEEEEEE (Chris Brown).
As it stands, your deck looks like a Hierarch strain of RUG Delver (which isn't completely unheard of in Modern) with Wild Nacatl instead of Tarmogoyf and an entire color splash so you can also run Lightning Helix over Vedalken Shackles, Cryptic Command, and Blood Moon from the side. That doesn't seem worth it to me. I'm not saying it can't win, but I think you'd win much more without white. If you really want to play Nacatl and Delver in the same deck, you need Goyfs; if you run Goyfs, you have no room for Hierarch.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I didn't jam 4 Goyfs in over spells. I made sure to keep the spell count up above 25. I tested Goyf for a bit more than two weeks and ran it through about 40+ games in tournaments and playtesting against a variety of decks. It just sat awkwardly on the curve and wouldn't hit play until much later than I wanted it to (after I had burnt most of my tempo cards). Modern games don't really start until turn 2 and being able to squeeze in a threat under Mana Leak/Spell Snare and then preventing your opponents turn 2 play is one of the biggest tempo plays in a game. The deck thrives on getting some repeatable damage source in play on turn 1 then just buying time until you win the game a handful of turns later. Goyf mucks up that plan a bit too much. I'd maybe run it as a 2-of but honestly, it just doesn't suit the deck well despite being a cheap beater. If you play it turn 2, you are allowing your opponent to resolve something that you need to match and with the card quality in modern, that's usually going to cost you two cards for their one (Voice of Resurgence for example). Having Goyf in play was never worth the tempo advantage the opponent gets.
There is 1 or 2 slots for anything that costs more than 2 in my deck (which is only a concession to having occasional later game power). I don't see how recommending I drop a color and force Cryptic, Shackles and Blood Moon into a deck is a reasonable suggestion to what I have been trying to achieve with the curve. I can appreciate that Goyf has worked for you, but basically telling me to post elsewhere because my deck is inferior on the premise that I don't run 1 card that you like (with the insubstantial claim that "[it's] better in this deck than Nacatl," to back that up). Honestly it makes me not really care to take you seriously. However, I hope this is just us getting off to a poor start and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Just in the future I would like to get better responses than "Play a different deck."
How has Gitaxian Probe been working for you? I've considered running it but I don't like the uncertainty it put into an opening hand as well as taking additional damage on top of starting most games at 14-16 life. Has it been worthwhile for you? Has it cost you any games? With only 2 Helix to off set the self inflicted damage, I'd imagine Burn and Affinity end up being extremely difficult match ups.
While it is always more ideal to start with a one drop on turn one, and a second one drop on turn two with something like spell pierce up, there are many games where your first two threats will just flat out die, even through countermagic. Expecting to never see a late game pretty much means you will have a very hard time recovering when you inevitability face multiple turns of watching your one drops eat abrupt decays, and drawing noble hierarchs instead of goyfs is pretty bad when you dont have a board presence. Goyf plays a very essential roll in this deck in that it will always be the biggest threat on the field so you can assume you will never be forced to stop attacking by being outclassed, he is more than cheap enough to deploy while holding up countermagic, and he is literally the only creature in the deck that dodges bolt and damage based sweepers which are ridiculously good against this archetype.
However, I hope this is just us getting off to a poor start and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Just in the future I would like to get better responses than "Play a different deck."
How has Gitaxian Probe been working for you? I've considered running it but I don't like the uncertainty it put into an opening hand as well as taking additional damage on top of starting most games at 14-16 life. Has it been worthwhile for you? Has it cost you any games? With only 2 Helix to off set the self inflicted damage, I'd imagine Burn and Affinity end up being extremely difficult match ups.
No worries! If it works for you, by all means keep playing it. But in my extensive testing, I personally have found Goyf indispensable. I think the issue is you're thinking Goyf is something he's not. You don't just slam him ASAP against any deck; once he's bolt-proof, he presents both a serious clock and especially a hard body, something our other threats fail to do. This combination, for a measly 1G, explains his status as a tempo mainstay across every format in which he's legal. His best application and primary role: play him after opponents have dealt with Delver/Nacatl, since they can just bolt those guys. Goyf comes down for cheap to mop up and immediately regains any traction you might have lost with his ridiculous stats.
Burn and Affinity are actually favorable matchups for this build. It's pretty easy to tell when you're facing burn (Mountain, Rift Bolt, go), and once you know, slam a threat and then play very conservatively. Let lands come into play tapped and keep up Spell Pierce for Bolts. The matchup is something like 50/50 pre-board but it swings into favorable after, since you get extra Helices, Negate, and Spellskite. Usually if you resolve just one Lightning Helix you can't lose. Remand and obviously Gitaxian Probe come out here but cheap threats stay in since we need to start clocking Burn as quickly as possible.
Affinity is an even easier matchup, especially for versions of Counter-Cat that run lots of creature-targeting burn in the MD. Take a look at my sample list above - for g2 and g3, I'm actually bringing in 10 cards from the sideboard including Spellskite, Qasali Pridemage, Destructive Revelry, Ancient Grudge, Spell Snare, Engineered Explosives, and Forked Bolt if I'm running it that day. I side out the full set of Delvers in this matchup, as well as Remands and maybe some Spell Pierce if I need to, and play a proactive control game. Affinity can't even close to keep up with a critical mass of removal. Affinity is much more relevant a matchup than Burn IMO, and one of this deck's great strengths is how good the Twin, Affinity, Tron, and Pod matchups are, since these decks more or less dominate any given meta.
Against both Burn and Affinity, incidentally, Tarmogoyf is the best threat. He's frequently a 5/6 (between Eidolon of the Great Revel and all those artifacts), which puts either deck on a very fast clock.
Regarding Gitaxian Probe: It's much better if you run a lot of Spell Pierce/Spell Snare, and it's also better with more Snapcaster Mage and Hooting Mandrills. Lately I'm starting to think versions without Mandrills shouldn't exist, so I'm mostly brewing lists with 3-4 Probes. The info is crazy in this deck. When all your soft permission works, you don't even feel like you're playing Magic since you get ahead so fast.
While it is always more ideal to start with a one drop on turn one, and a second one drop on turn two with something like spell pierce up, there are many games where your first two threats will just flat out die, even through countermagic. Expecting to never see a late game pretty much means you will have a very hard time recovering when you inevitability face multiple turns of watching your one drops eat abrupt decays, and drawing noble hierarchs instead of goyfs is pretty bad when you dont have a board presence. Goyf plays a very essential roll in this deck in that it will always be the biggest threat on the field so you can assume you will never be forced to stop attacking by being outclassed, he is more than cheap enough to deploy while holding up countermagic, and he is literally the only creature in the deck that dodges bolt and damage based sweepers which are ridiculously good against this archetype.
Oops, didn't read this before I wrote what I have above, but yeah I agree entirely. Couldn't have better described why Tarmogoyf is so essential to the archetype.
As far as the late-game goes, although I'm not sure this was directed at me, I may have misspoke when I said "our mid-game is our late-game." Although cards like Spell Pierce are generally better earlier, we can tangle with late-game decks perfectly well on a comparatively underdeveloped board state since the efficiency of our spell suite allows us to dictate the pace of the game. One of the deck's strengths is how well it topdecks against most of the field, and especially against grindy decks that make games go long anyway (Jund, UWR, etc.) - we run 17 to 19 lands, whereas many midrange and control strategies in Modern run closer to 24. I always beat UWR, frequently with just 2-4 lands in play to their ~9, simply because I'm actually drawing spells all game and their one-for-oneing can't keep up if they're drawing Sulfur Falls. If you play threats conservatively in these matchups, you can force opponents to spend tons of mana to deal with 1-mana dudes (i.e. by casting Supreme Verdict) and then just slam replacements from the selection you've accumulated over the turns.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I would appreciate your feedback regarding the following points:
1.) Playing without serum vision / probe but instead with more burn / reach
2.) Overall thoughts regarding the list above
3.) Cards which improve our BGx MU post SB in general - consider: we have the potential to play 4-5 colours, we have a low land count (casting cost / colour requirement), ideally it is an instant or sorcery (Delver/Snapcaster)
Regards,
Philip
1. Against Lightning Bolt decks that don't play a cheap creature in the first few turns (half of them?), Tarmogoyf gets a lot more fragile without cantrips. With four different kinds of counterspells and a full set of Helices, I think you should run at least a couple Probes. I ran some math yesterday to makes sure I had enough Burn and the Turbo Xerox rule applies to some extent to nonland cards. I'm running 7 MD burn spells (4 Bolt + 2 Helix + 1 Boros Charm) but it often FEELS like 10 because I have 7 cantrips that help me dig to find them. I'm also running 8 counters (3 Remand, 2 Leak, 3 Spell Pierce) and that also feels like 10 with the extra draw.
I've found, like you, that more burn definitely improves midrange matchups. Still, I'm wondering if you don't have too much. When you burn players out, do you generally have a few more turns you could have used to do it with? Do you have extra damage sitting in your hand/on your board by the time they hit 0? If you answered yes to these questions, you may want to cut back on burn for something more diverse. I like cantrips because a) they pump Goyf and b) they help you find what you need. In matchups where burn is less relevant and you want more counterspells, Serum Visions lets you put Helix on the bottom so you can draw a Leak. Keep in mind you only need to be one turn faster than enemy decks. The key here is to find the balance in terms of card choices so you can be one turn faster as much as possible. Being 2-3 turns faster doesn't do anything for us; a win's a win.
Similarly, you don't want to go overkill on Lightning Helix, since it's expensive and only does one thing. If you're frequently finding yourself at 10-14 life when you win, you probably have too many in the MD. I think with the route you're going for, you want a fourth Boros Charm in the main over a Helix (deals more damage, has additional utility), but only your testing will tell.
2. All that aside, I do like this list, and I really like the Geist list it's inspired by. I think you definitely need a pair of Hooting Mandrills, or at least one over Clique. I flirted a lot with Clique in the earlier stages of my testing (as you know) since I wanted an additional beater, but Mandrills totally outclasses her here. Try him. I also favor a 3/2 Pierce/Snare split to the opposite; why did you choose to run so many Spell Snare? Pierce is really the workhorse of the deck IMO.
3. Vs. BGx: Burn helps, Mandrills helps, Path helps. Whoever sticks more Goyfs wins, so if you have more Goyfs (Mandrills) and more ways to deal with Goyfs (Path) you're golden. I like Spell Pierce in this matchup to deal with Liliana of the Veil, and Boros Charm is crazy since it counters Abrupt Decay/Terminate/Maelstrom Pules/Lightning Bolt/Slaughter Pact (and they still pay 2B!)/etc. I've recently cut the Pridemages from my SB since they're so hard to cast unless you're on Pool/Foundry (which I'm not, for reasons explained in the primer) and started running a single Chained to the Rocks in the side to help with Pod/big creature decks. I like that card against BGx too since it deals with another big threat. I also bring in my Spell Snares here, they're excellent.
The Rock: Spell Snare counters Confidant, Goyf, and Scooze. Destructive Revelry deals with Batterskull and Courser if you're expecting those. Lightning Bolt/Helix hits Treetop Village for big tempo swings. Paths help your guys not get outclassed, and casting it on Phyrexian Obliterator feels incredible. Additional unconditional removal (i.e. Chained to the Rocks) can't hurt. Extra burn slays in these matchups. Boros Charm even takes out shiny new Lilianas EOT.
+Lightning Bolt (Jund): They keep in Anger of the Gods against us, which actually works in our favor since Goyf/Mandrills are so big. If you're expecting it, play threats one at a time and force Jund to spend lots of mana to deal with them. Bolting Raging Ravine rocks.
PS.: I did some thinking and wondered if anyone tried a transformational SB so far? Legacy UR Delver does often board into a primary burn deck post SB. Looking at my latest decklist we are not too far off. This post-SB plan would allow us to win the game on a very non-interactive axis like most combo decks do with the benefit of still be able to play a "normal" game of magic. If the maindeck does play enough burn (4 bolt, 4 helix, 4 boros charm / tribal flames) the SB would need approx 7 slots to transform into a makeshift burn deck (5 rift bolt / lava spike / tribal flames (probably with a singelton watery grave / blood crypt in the board) + 2 Isochron Scepter (Pat Cox did a video series on zoo where he played it in the board and used it to break up certain MUs) ).
This would give us a very proactive gameplan against BGx decks which are known for not being well equipped against burn strategies and most of the cards double up as additional removal spells in certain MUs (mainly affinity and pod).
Thoughts?
I think the best direction to go in regarding the sideboard is to have the option to adjust your gameplan significantly. Take a look at my sample SB in the primer:
It's not "transformational" per se, but this sideboard lets me completely change the way the deck functions. Against creature decks (i.e. Merfolk), I board out Remand, Gitaxian Probe, and Spell Pierce for Lightning Helix, Combust, Forked Bolt, Destructive Revelry, and Spell Snare. Against control decks (i.e. Tron), I board out Helix and Bolt for Negate, Spell Snare, and Boros Charm. After siding, the deck can have up to 10 burn spells (4 Bolt, 3 Helix, 3 Boros) or up to 12 counters (Remand, Leak, Pierce, Snare, Negate), which basically just leaves room for the creatures and the cantrips. Probe + Visions don't just take up room, though; they virtually increase the amount of each other card I run. 10 burn spells or 12 counters + 7 cantrips is no joke when those kinds of cards are good.
Given the awesome tech our color suite affords us, and all the direct damage we run already, I can't imagine going all-in on a transformational burn sideboard being worthwhile. I do like the idea of an Isochron Scepter though and will look into testing it against non-Decay decks (just picked up a foil!).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I will post a longer post/explanation in the next few days, since I have atm only a little time.
If someone wants to play Scepter (like myself), he has to acknowledge that scepter shouldn't be a 2 drop but a 4 drop. If you have 4 mana and cast a scpeter you will never get 2 for 1. Furthermore, imprinting a Boros Charm is the best case scenario. Why? Because it can protect itself due to the indestructible part from the Charm. Hence, the opponent would need 2 cards to get rid of Scepter (first one would get "countered" by the boros charm).
I will post my brainstormed list in the next few days (basically the 4c version, since Tribal Flames got worse due to the printing of Hooting Ape).
Greetings,
Kathal
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either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Hey TOXICjoker, seems like we're pretty much on the same page and you agree with everything I wrote! That's great. You do want 2 Mandrills though, the card is absolutely bonkers. Stomped everyone at my local with it tonight. I think cutting the second Simic Charm is the way to go in your list. And yes, I'm planning on integrating those thoughts on BGx (and on many other archetypes) into the primer when I have a little more time. Eventually, I'd like to really develop the Matchup Analysis section at the bottom. MD Snare sounds good in a BGx meta; at my locals most people play Tron, control, and combo decks so I'd rather have Pierce main. I do think at least 2 Spell Pierce MD is necessary though, regardless the number of Snares.
Btw.: How do you think the ideal mana base will look like with the addition of onslought fetches? Additionally do you think I should get rid of the second steam vents (I really think I need 10 fetches)? I am uncertain regarding breeding pool / foundry - I do like the possibility to get all played colours with all fetchlands in every combination.
I covered fetch amounts in detail in the primer, check the Lands section. To optimize, you can't run less than 10, and you can't run more than 12. I also considered Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta up there. I don't think Wooded Foothills is good enough unless you're on BP/SF and it's especially important to you to have additional ways to fetch basic Forest (pretty narrow). For shocks, keep BP/SF if you're running Simic Charm since it casts that. The color combinations that BP/SF cast are RG, GW, GU, and UW. I personally don't like the pair because I don't run any of those combinations main, and I can cast RG for Revelry off Garden/Vents anyway. You'll notice I cut the Pridemages from my sideboard; I did that because it sucks to get to GW off the core shock lands. But I still consider Vents, Garden, Ground, and Fountain the core since they cast Boros Charm and Lightning Helix, cards we must run in this archetype. So, if you really want to run Simic Charm go ahead, just know that it encourages you to run BP/SF which makes the rest of the manabase a little less consistent. And yes, you should definitely nix that second Steam Vents.
I will post a longer post/explanation in the next few days, since I have atm only a little time.
If someone wants to play Scepter (like myself), he has to acknowledge that scepter shouldn't be a 2 drop but a 4 drop. If you have 4 mana and cast a scpeter you will never get 2 for 1. Furthermore, imprinting a Boros Charm is the best case scenario. Why? Because it can protect itself due to the indestructible part from the Charm. Hence, the opponent would need 2 cards to get rid of Scepter (first one would get "countered" by the boros charm).
I will post my brainstormed list in the next few days (basically the 4c version, since Tribal Flames got worse due to the printing of Hooting Ape).
Greetings,
Kathal
How is Tribal Flames worse with Ape? As you know I'm not a huge proponent of the card myself, but I don't see how Mandrills makes it less effective. Regarding Scepter, I played one in the side tonight and it won me two games. Brought it in against Esper Control and Monoblack Control. Once it hit the table it was just an inevitability thing (once with Lightning Bolt, once with Charm). Jeff Hoogland in his article on UWR Delver makes the same point as you regarding Boros Charm (that it can protect the Scepter indefinitely), but I totally disagree here. If you tap Scepter to cast Charm, opponents can Abrupt Decay it in response. And Scepter does nothing if you just sit there with it untapped all the time so you can protect it from destruction. With these facts in mind I think it's best to run Scepter out early in MUs you want it in, ideally with Lightning Helix underneath since it helps you race while applying pressure. T1 threat, T2 Scepter with Remand/Leak should also win you lots of games - opponents simply don't have time under pressure to not cast anything for 3 turns. Also, if you play it with 2 untapped mana, you can still get 2-for-1ed, since you're down a card (and mana!) by exiling the spell you cast to an artifact. Either way, I think it merits more testing but I won't add it to the primer until I'm convinced it's great here.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think, I wrote it a bit wrong. Tribal Flames get worse, because you don't need it anymore, since you have Goyf 5-6. Tribal Flames provides you an insane reach, but due to the Ape you doesn't "need" it anymore. The ape is basically a Tribal Flames but only as creature. That is my point. They found on the same principle, as a game finisher. And most of the times a Tribal Flames is as good as a Ape, but the Ape can deal more damage, where Tribal Flames is basically one use only (exception is with Snapcaster). That was my thought process behind it.
Regarding Scepter, of course you want to use it, but you should play it when you have 4 mana. At that point, you can never get 2 for 1, because you can still get at least one copy of the imprinted spell and then it is a "2 for 2". Afterwards, you use it normal, so most of the times eot. You shouldn't hold it up every turn and don't use it because you are afraid of Decay, in the end it is a decayable thread, which doesn't get hit by Bolt/Path/Dismember..., which is insane. I would run it as 2 of in the SB since you want it nearly in every match-up, where there is no decay (all URx decks, other Tempo decks, Zoo, Affinity, Combo decks (I heard, imprinting a Remand/Manaleak provides a little bit of value ) or other fair non BGx decay decks (pod e.g. (I'm not sure here, because they play Sliver/Sage as Tutor target)).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I think, I wrote it a bit wrong. Tribal Flames get worse, because you don't need it anymore, since you have Goyf 5-6. Tribal Flames provides you an insane reach, but due to the Ape you doesn't "need" it anymore. The ape is basically a Tribal Flames but only as creature. That is my point. They found on the same principle, as a game finisher. And most of the times a Tribal Flames is as good as a Ape, but the Ape can deal more damage, where Tribal Flames is basically one use only (exception is with Snapcaster). That was my thought process behind it.
Ah, that makes a little more sense. I still think Ape + Flames might merit testing if Tribal Flames is as good as TOXICjoker makes it out to be, but having extra Goyfs definitely makes Boros Charm better too.
Regarding Scepter, of course you want to use it, but you should play it when you have 4 mana. At that point, you can never get 2 for 1, because you can still get at least one copy of the imprinted spell and then it is a "2 for 2". Afterwards, you use it normal, so most of the times eot. You shouldn't hold it up every turn and don't use it because you are afraid of Decay, in the end it is a decayable thread, which doesn't get hit by Bolt/Path/Dismember..., which is insane. I would run it as 2 of in the SB since you want it nearly in every match-up, where there is no decay (all URx decks, other Tempo decks, Zoo, Affinity, Combo decks (I heard, imprinting a Remand/Manaleak provides a little bit of value ) or other fair non BGx decay decks (pod e.g. (I'm not sure here, because they play Sliver/Sage as Tutor target)).
Picture this: You play Scepter and imprint Helix on it, 2 mana up. Pass. EOT opponent Decays your Scepter; you respond by Helixing him. You spent 2 cards (Scepter and Helix) and he spent 1 (Decay). That's a 2-for-1, even though you got the effect. It's like Vampiric Tutoring for Dark Confidant on your upkeep, casting it, moving to end step, and getting it Bolted. Yeah, you still got to play the Confidant, but you still got 2-for-1'd.
STILL, if the Confidant survives, he'll draw you lots of cards and negate that potential disadvantage; Scepter does the same thing, and is much harder to kill than a 2/1. I think 2 in the board is too many since it cuts your options for other matchups by a card (priceless in this deck) and Scepter, even as a 1-off, occasionally shows up in your hand with no Instant/Sorcery besides Mana Leak to imprint on it. It's really sweet when you get it with a burn spell, but otherwise, it does nothing.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
The Scepter example you gave isn't correct. It isn't a 2-for-1. By leaving the mana open, you are effectively making the Decay a 1-for-1 and you get to cast your Lightning Helix (for whatever value). If you weren't able to activate it, then it becomes a 2-for-1 since you lost the ability to cast Helix. The main difference is that your opponent controls the activation of the Scepter and you lose out on potential repeatable value. As far as it's applications in the deck, I don't like that it uses up slots that could either be creatures or ways to flip Delver.
I've made some changes to my list to try out in the coming weeks.
I cut Sacred Foundry for an additional Spell Snare, Sword of Fire and Ice for Simic Charm, Electrolyze for Jeskai Charm, Grim Lavamancer for Hooting Mandrills, and Moorland Haunt for Slayer's Stronghold. I wanted to give 18 lands a try, which opened up a slot for another spell that needed to hit low on the curve. I also want to see what 26 spells is like, so I cut Sword which in turn makes Moorland Haunt weaker (as well as competing with Mandrills) so those both got replaced. Slayers' Stronghold is the best of the on-color Innistrad ability lands for the deck. I'm not crazy about having to tap out main phase for it, but it seems better than Alchemist's Refuge for 16 non-Instant/Flash cards.
Excuse me about Scepter. Still, I think letting the opponent decide when you use the burn spell can be pretty bad, especially since we like to target creatures with them. All that said, I do like it, and I'll try it again at my next tournament on Monday.
Hopefully that one-off Mandrills will convince you to try Tarmogoyf again. Did you read the posts on Page 1 from Lemonbuster and TOXICjoker about him? 4 MD Helix seems like a lot, and I don't like lands that don't make colors/count as basic types. Either way, I like your list better with a big dude and no Sword.
PRIMER UPDATE: added a section on BGx decks to Matchup Anaylses. I also fleshed out the Lands section, exhaustively describing optimal fetchland combinations depending on manabase.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm not a fan of no-Pierce; it's the best counterspell in the deck. You basically have to race combo decks since you have much less interaction with all the burn, so I'd assume those matchups get a little worse. The BGx matchup must improve a lot though. I'd also like a second Mandrills, and think about a Serum/Probe split instead of triple Visions since you want to cast so many spells (EOT burn for days). Between Charm and Helix, you might want to try Isochron in the side; it's been great for me (when I board in my singleton I make sure to pack 3x Lightning Helix and 3x Boros Charm, the max I run of each. Aside: took out UWR Control today on the back of Isochron+Remand). The manabase looks really solid, but I'm curious: if we run basic Island and no Forest in Tribal Flames variants, maybe we want Overgrown Tomb instead of Watery Grave?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
It seems like you've thought about this a lot. Love it. I thought about Pierce a little more and it's not Combo I'm worried about, it's Liliana/Bolt/Wrath/Anger of the Gods. With 18 lands, you can't always count on having two mana up in the early turns for Remand (also only a 3-of). Against removal-heavy decks it seems like you'll rely on burn spells to get most of (if not the entire) job done. I can't tell you how many games I've won against grindy decks that went like this:
Keep a one-land, one-threat hand
T1 Serum
T2 Cat, Pierce their Bolt
T3+ Ride Cat to burn range
EOT Bolt-Snap-Bolt
If Pierce is Snare in these types of scenarios, Control players can deal with our limited threats upon casting, laughing as you throw Charms at them while their manabase develops and Snapping back Lightning Helix. If you want to go with a burn-heavy, counterspell-light approach, I think you need more threats, maybe even the full 18 (IMO the max for this deck) with another Snapcaster Mage (good with burn) and a second Mandrills (good because of the situations so much burn and so few counters open you up to).
I'm also hesitant to lose the ability to go either all-burn or all-counters after siding. That's been one of my favorite aspects of the deck since you can tune it to have great game against any archetype. Wrote about it here:
Quote from "ashtonkutcher" »
It's not "transformational" per se, but this sideboard lets me completely change the way the deck functions. Against creature decks (i.e. Merfolk), I board out Remand, Gitaxian Probe, and Spell Pierce for Lightning Helix, Combust, Forked Bolt, Destructive Revelry, and Spell Snare. Against control decks (i.e. Tron), I board out Helix and Bolt for Negate, Spell Snare, and Boros Charm. After siding, the deck can have up to 10 burn spells (4 Bolt, 3 Helix, 3 Boros) or up to 12 counters (Remand, Leak, Pierce, Snare, Negate), which basically just leaves room for the creatures and the cantrips. Probe + Visions don't just take up room, though; they virtually increase the amount of each other card I run. 10 burn spells or 12 counters + 7 cantrips is no joke when those kinds of cards are good.
As for sideboard choices, I don't like double Combust; not versatile enough. Vapor Snag/Simic Charm does the same thing and more in that second slot. Also not a fan of Scavenging Ooze since he eats ALL your mana. Your deck has 3 Green sources and you won't want to actively search out more than one until you see him. I'll think about a better option for grave hate tonight, right now Surgical Extraction seems like the only viable card.
BTW: Side out your Delvers against Affinity but not your Cats. We need minimal threats in this matchup since we want to Revelry-Snap-Revelry-Bolt-Grudge-Snap-Bolt them into submission and THEN cast a beater to clean up. Cat doesn't have to flip, so he's better in this role. And yeah he gets blocked by Champion, but they'll just be chumping by that point in the game and you'll have multiple threats. In other words, Champion will be blocking a Tarmogoyf anyway.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm surprised this group hasn't tried testing treasure cruise yet, if the plan is put an 3/x into play and tempo them out. Drawing 3 cards is huge to keep mid-ranged and combo from outlasting us.
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Originally innovated by Channel Fireball at Pro Tour Philadelphia, the original Counter Cat deck abused Green Sun's Zenith to ramp into beaters and assure a stream of relevant creatures throughout a game. It ran Bant Charm for versatility and other counterspells in the sideboard:
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple Garden
1 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Other permanents (2)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Instant (14)
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Bant Charm
Sorcery (4)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Flashfreeze
2 Gideon Jura
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rule of Law
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Unified Will
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Forest
1 Island
Creature (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
2 Boros Charm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
Sorcery (7)
4 Serum Visions
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Pyroclasm
1 Rending Volley
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flashfreeze
2 Negate
1 Mutagenic Growth
1 Isochron Scepter
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
Magic offers players a variety of existentially satisfying experiences. Attacking with a 3-power one-drop on turn 2 with Remand in hand is one of them. Wild Nacatl doubles the Delver player's chances of enjoying such fulfillment, and Blue offers the Zoo player attractive answers to sweeper effects. Pilot Counter-Cat well, and its infamous common beaters will show you why they've dominated competitive Magic since they hit cardboard. But don't expect forgiveness for sloppy play. The deck demands you manage every resource with care and skill.
Gameplan
We neatly divide our gameplan into two phases. As with most Tempo decks, Counter-Cat's chance of winning decreases exponentially over time as soft permission loses value, big creatures outclass our threats, and expensive effects stabilize the board. Not unlike Zoo, we initially use burn spells to clear a path for our bang-for-buck creatures. After those have eaten away a reasonable amount of life points, Snapcaster Mage flashes the burn back to close out the game. The key difference between Counter-Cat and Zoo is our ability to extend the early-game by combining our low curve with counterspells, allowing us to out-tempo opponents.
Phase 1 aims to protect an early threat with soft permission as it chips away at opponents; Phase 2 finishes them off with Tarmgoyf, Hooting Mandrills, and burn.
Main Deck tightness affords little flexibilty. Counter-Cat needs at least 15 creatures and a minimum of 6 counterspells to function effectively, running between 17 and 19 lands. In most Delver decks, the Instant and Sorcery count should never drop below 23; in this one, not below 25.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
3 (Remand/Mana Leak)
3 (Spell Snare/Spell Pierce)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn/Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa/Wooded Foothills
4 (Shock land)
1 (Basic land)
Cantrips do have other functions. In the absence of a 3-power one-drop, any of the first-turn cantrips (with a fetch land) produces a Lightning Bolt-resistant Tarmogoyf on turn 2. Cantrips also synergize with Snapcaster Mage and Delve by quickly filling the Graveyard and drawing into more castables. Serum Visions helps our gameplan by filtering draws and setting up Delver flips, and Gitaxian Probe gives perfect information to maximize the potency of Spell Pierce and Spell Snare. Thought Scour does a great Dark Ritual impression for Delve and even messes up enemy Scry and Academy Ruins. Sleight of Hand offers immediate selection, but lacks additional uses, so leave it out.
To boost Delver reliability and flashback potential, we only run Creatures, Instants, Sorceries, and Lands.
Creatures
Our creatures must either apply pressure or provide matchless utility. As a result, space is at a premium and costly hitters like Vendilion Clique get benched for cheaper clocks.
Delver of Secrets: Delver has terrorized constructed since his release. Poster boy and yardstick for Tempo threats.
Wild Nacatl: The namesake Cat got banned before Delver of Secrets even saw print, but its readmission to Modern gives us the two most efficient one-drops in the format.
Finishers
Tarmogoyf: The Lhurgoyf's infamous efficiency is unparalleled in Magic. Tempo strategies, as demonstrated by Canadian Thresh, bloom a 4/5 extremely quickly. Besides surviving Lightning Bolt, Tarmogoyf's main strength lies in his versatility: he supplies serious hurt turning sideways or walls aggressing creatures. A must-deal-with threat, Tarmogoyf also opens opponents up to all sorts of two-for-ones: there's no coming back from double-Bolting a Tarmogoyf into Spell Pierce.
Hooting Mandrills: Trample beats Lingering Souls. The butt beats Bolt. And the price is right. Counter-Cat's great irony: Tarmogoyf is actually the best creature. Now we get another one.
Snapcaster Mage: A Tempo mainstay since his dominance in Standard, Tiago enables the format's most degenerate interaction: Bolt-Snap-Bolt. He also flashes back permission and makes for game-ending reach in conjunction with Boros Charm or Tribal Flames.
Like Zoo, Counter-Cat runs removal that doubles as reach, led by the mighty Lightning Bolt. White gives us peerless removal, Blue nets us the best countermagic this side of 8th Edition, and rainbow colors let us run Tribal Flames.
Spells in Counter-Cat serve one (or more) of four purposes. They either clear the board for threats to get in, protect threats and disrupt the opponent's gameplan, end the game by dealing large chunks of damage, or help the pilot find the kind of spell he needs. While four colors allots us a bevy of high-impact cards, such as Ajani Vengeant, if those don't directly advance this focused gameplan for a minimal mana investment, they have no place here.
Lightning Bolt: Good card. Makes miracles with Snapcaster Mage, kills guys, and domes for 3.
Path to Exile: Best unconditional removal in the format. Easy to cast or flash back, and profitably removes Kitchen Finks, Wurmcoil Engine, Griselbrand... well, everything. Run 3-4 depending on the prevalence of Persist/beefy (4+ toughness) creatures in your meta.
Lightning Helix: A fetch-forgiving Lightning Bolt. Helix mops up aggro decks and balances out multiple Probes. Consider at least a pair MD in aggressive metas.
Tribal Flames: This two-mana Sorcery deals up to 5 damage to creatures or players. Goblin Grenade-crazy. Plus Snapcaster Mage, that's a whopping 10 damage. Its ability to KO Tarmogoyf and friends can make it worth the Watery Grave, but as a result, Tribal Flames versions shouldn't go under 18 lands.
Boros Charm: 4 Instant-speed damage for two mana. Great at ending games, Boros Charm also promotes our early game by saving threats from Abrupt Decay, Oblivion Stone, and Supreme Verdict. Nice in land-light variants that can't run Tribal Flames.
Valorous Stance: It doesn't go to the face, but sometimes killing a Siege Rhino is better. Also protects creatures from Abrupt Decay.
Countermagic
Spell Pierce: Early pressure punishes Modern decks that fail to play on curve. Pierce benefits greatly from this, providing immense tempo by countering gamebreakers like Wrath of God, Liliana of the Veil, and Karn, Liberated... for one.
Spell Snare: Deals with the format's best. Spell Snare holds value at all stages of the game, hard-countering Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage, and close to anything in Storm and Affinity.
Remand: The lifeblood of Modern tempo decks. Remand gets the nod over Mana Leak in these archetypes since it shines with its controller ahead on the board. We play our threats in the first two turns of the game, so Remand frequently Time Walks us into victory.
Mana Leak: Snapcaster Mage and cantrips reward variety, and Leak deals with gross cards permanently. I currently favor a 2/3 Remand/Leak split.
Mana Tithe: Hilarious as a one-off. If you board it out, opponents still play around it. Feels great to counter Sphinx's Revelation off a Temple Garden.
Cantrips/library manipulation/draw
Serum Visions: Our cantrip of choice. No whining about how it's not Ponder or Preordain; Serum Visions is one of the top 10 most played cards in Modern and its price has risen to 7 dollars a copy. At the end of the day, self-replacing card selection is that nuts. While all cantrips lower our land count, thin the deck, and enable Delve, only Visions sets up draws and Delver flips.
Gitaxian Probe: Perfect information strengthens our soft permission.
Thought Scour: Delve enabler. Instant-speed lets you hold up Pierce/Snare, EOT draw off Snapcaster Mage, or save Goyf from Flame Slash. Can also target opponents to counter Scry or Academy Ruins.
Faithless Looting: Not nearly as good without Treasure Cruise, but still okay in grindy matchups. Primarily used as a late-game draw spell to filter out dead fetchlands (no targets remaining in library) or soft counters (opponents can pay for Mana Leak). More on the subtleties of casting Looting here.
Counter-Cat sets up a pair of lands that offer all 4 colors ASAP so it can cast everything and grow Wild Nacatl. Which land you fetch first depends on your hand. Pop quiz! What's your line of play with this draw?
Delver of Secrets, Wild Nacatl, Scalding Tarn, Stomping Ground, Mana Leak, Lightning Bolt, Serum Visions
LANDS..........#SHOCKS....#BASICS....#FETCHES
17..................4...................1.................12
17..................4...................2.................11
17..................6...................1.................10
18..................4...................2.................12
18..................6...................1.................11
18..................6...................2.................10
18*.................5...................1.................12
18*.................5...................2.................11
18*.................7...................1.................10
19*.................5...................2.................12
19..................6...................2.................11
19*.................7...................1.................11
19*.................7...................2.................10
We choose Shock lands over other duals since they reliably ETB untapped, get searched out by fetches, and pump Cat. Run the Core of 4, maybe the 2 Additional, and always the full 7 in Tribal Flames builds.
Steam Vents + Temple Garden, Stomping Ground + Hallowed Fountain: CORE SHOCKS. Together, a pair casts every threat, Lightning Helix/Boros Charm, and multiple one-mana spells a turn. All 4 can be found with Misty Rainforest or Arid Mesa.
Breeding Pool + Sacred Foundry: ADDITIONAL SHOCKS. Together, they only cast cards with a casting cost of UW, WG, RU, and RG. No Helix or Boros Charm off these two. Best relegated to Tribal Flames versions or to decks running "off-color" spells like Simic Charm/Qasali Pridemage. Additional Shocks also increase Tectonic Edge/Ghost Quarter resilience, but running them means less fetches, more lands, or both (see chart).
Watery Grave: TRIBAL SHOCK. A necessary evil with Tribal Flames.
Basics
Basic lands let us survive Blood Moon and recover from an otherwise devastating Path to Exile or Ghost Quarter. Run 1-2 depending on personal preference, but consult the chart if you're on Tribal Flames.
Island: Best Basic. Always run one.
Forest: If you want a second Basic, make it a Forest. It casts creatures and even destroys active Blood Moon with Destructive Revelry.
Fetches
More fetches means better mana, bigger Goyfs, cheaper Delve. Too many means unstable mana, low life, dead cards. Run 10-12 depending on land count and distribution (see chart): 7-8 Main Fetches (including 4 Misty Rainforest) and 2-4 Flex Fetches.
*Take care when choosing Flex Fetches: Although Flooded Strand gets 7/9 possible lands, and Mesa just gets 5/9, in builds without Additional Shocks or Tribal Flames they actually fetch the same amount. Carefully compare your own build and manabase to the sections below to choose an ideal fetch spread.
Misty Rainforest: MAIN FETCH. Fetches most Shocks, including the full Core. Also gets both Basics. 4-off.
CORE (4/4): Steam Vents, Temple Garden, Stomping Ground, Hallowed Fountain
ADDITIONAL (1/2): Breeding Pool
TRIBAL (1/1): Watery Grave
BASIC (2/2): Island, Forest
MISSES (1/9): Sacred Foundry
Scalding Tarn: MAIN FETCH. Fetches most Shocks and basic Island. Doesn't always make Green. 3-4-off.
CORE (3/4): Steam Vents, Stomping Ground, Hallowed Fountain
ADDITIONAL (2/2): Breeding Pool, Sacred Foundry
TRIBAL (1/1): Watery Grave
BASIC (1/2): Island
MISSES (2/9): Temple Garden, Forest
Flooded Strand: MAIN FETCH. Works over Scalding Tarn if finding Temple Garden is more relevant to you than finding Stomping Ground. Other than that, the two are identical. Don't be cute and try basic Plains.
CORE (3/4): Steam Vents, Temple Garden, Hallowed Fountain
ADDITIONAL (2/2): Breeding Pool, Sacred Foundry
TRIBAL (1/1): Watery Grave
BASIC (1/2): Island
MISSES (2/9): Stomping Ground, Forest
Arid Mesa: FLEX FETCH. Fetches Core Shocks, but doesn't grab Basics. Bad with Tribal Flames; run 2-4 otherwise.
CORE (4/4): Steam Vents, Temple Garden, Stomping Ground, Hallowed Fountain
ADDITIONAL (1/2): Sacred Foundry
TRIBAL (0/1):
BASIC (0/2):
MISSES (4/9): Breeding Pool, Watery Grave, Island, Forest
Wooded Foothills: FLEX FETCH. Worth it over Arid Mesa as Flex in builds with Additional Shocks (BP/SF) since it just gets more stuff. If you're on Core, Mesa works better, getting the whole Shock suite in exchange for basic Forest.
CORE (3/4): Steam Vents, Temple Garden, Stomping Ground
ADDITIONAL (2/2): Breeding Pool, Sacred Foundry
TRIBAL (0/1):
BASIC (1/2): Forest
MISSES (3/9): Hallowed Fountain, Watery Grave, Island
Windswept Heath: FLEX FETCH. Same function as Foothills, but it gets Hallowed Fountain instead of Steam Vents.
CORE (3/4): Temple Garden, Stomping Ground, Hallowed Fountain
ADDITIONAL (2/2): Breeding Pool, Sacred Foundry
TRIBAL (0/1):
BASIC (1/2): Forest
MISSES (3/9): Steam Vents, Watery Grave, Island
Polluted Delta/Verdant Catacombs: Not even worth it with Tribal Flames. The Swamp clause that gets Watery Grave might as well be an Island clause. These only fetch 4 Shocks of the 9 we ever run and they never get both Basics or the full Core/Additional Shock suite.
Serum Visions and Snapcaster Mage support one-offs in the side. Four colors comes with the best hosers in the format, both for wider archetypes and for specific decks. As always, sideboards should be tailored to specific metas. These choices shine in the archetype I've included them under, but have other uses as well (I've omitted a Vs. Tempo section, for example, since I list all the relevant sideboard cards under Vs. Affinity).
Qasali Pridemage: A Counter-Cat veteran, Pridemage threatens problematic permanents while doubling as beatdown. In play, it even deals with resolved Blood Moon. Mana-intensive to blow stuff up, but the clock rocks when you don't need to Naturalize. GW can prove hard to produce (see Lands).
Fiery Justice: Devastates popular aggro decks such as Zoo and Merfolk. 5 life is nothing to 4-for-1 a deck that can’t generate new cards. Think of it as mega-Electrolyze. Hard to cast off 4-Shock manabases.
Forked Bolt: Baby-Electrolyze. Easier to cast and more relevant vs. Noble Hierarch/Delver of Secrets decks.
Pyroclasm: Wipes their whole board. Equally insane against mana dorks and in Tempo matchups, no matter how many 1/1s they made.
Steel Sabotage: Counters any spell in the deck. Owns Wurmcoil Engine.
Spellskite: A classic answer to Bogles. Also good vs. Burn, UWR, Aggro, Affinity, and Twin.
Engineered Explosives: Wipes out many enchantments at a time, and kills creatures without Totem Armor. Actually explosive vs. Tokens. Disrupts problematic permanents before they even come online.
Destructive Revelry: Advances our gameplan while dealing with Blood Moon and Batterskull. Obviously great vs. Bogles and Affinity.
Cruel Edict: Narrow in its applications, but blows out nutty Bogle draws. Requires black mana, so usable exclusively in Tribal Flames builds.
Aven Mindcensor: The bird does well against any decks that search a lot, like Tron, but could prove tough to support in land-light builds. Counters Scapeshift.
Mutagenic Growth: Stops Lightning Bolt on your threats while often pushing through damage. Generally bad against decks without Bolts, but it does make Wild Nacatl and Hooting Mandrills big enough to kill a Siege Rhino.
Huntmaster of the Fells: Especially potent against grindy decks without Lightning Bolt. He's only Decayable half the time, and generates a ton of value if you don't expect counterspells.
Negate: Counters key cards and can’t be played around. Great vs. Planeswalkers.
Counterflux: A bit expensive, but ends Scapeshift.
Isochron Scepter: Insane as a one-off in any grindy matchup. Generates tons of advantage with Remand or poses as an unkillable threat with any burn spell. Board it back out for G3 if you expect artifact hate, blanking hate for virtual card advantage.
Feed the Clan: Dedicated Burn hate that gets a little ridiculous with a Ferocious trigger. Superb in with Hooting Mandrills.
Hallow: Spell Pierce is great against Burn since it counters a bolt for one mana. Hallow counters two bolts for one mana. That's a 6-life swing. Target Searing Blaze for 12, and Snap it back for a quick concession (concussion?).
More coming soon!
Favorable matchups
Tempo traditionally stomps combo, and our Twin matchup attests to that. We have Spell Pierce for Splinter Twin (which Battlegrowths Tarmogoyf), Spell Snare for Snapcaster Mages, Remand for twiddlers (which puts them in very awkward positions under pressure), and Path to Exile for blowouts. If they try to enchant their Pestermite for the win, Lightning Bolt totally blows them out, too.
TarmoTwin puts up more of a fight than U/R Twin, since Tempo is harder to beat for us than Combo. But we beat them at that game, too: we have more threats and a more reliable way to deal with the Lhurgoyf than Flame Slash in Path to Exile. Midrange-y versions with Huntmaster of the Fells and Keranos have trouble keeping up with Remand.
Gameplan
In the first few turns of the game, during which the Twin deck can't combo off, we want to play as aggressively as possible with our threats. It's fine to tap out on turns 1-3 for Tarmogoyf. After establishing board presence, all we need to do is hold up mana. If we can't stick a threat until after turn 4, it's best to save mana to ruin Oops-I-Wins. We have more business than Twin here since they draw into clunky combo pieces all game; when we finally draw a Tarmogoyf, we just push it through with countermagic and start two-for-oneing a desperate opponent (who will throw two burn spells at it turn after turn). Watch out for Flame Slash, which Thought Scour counters.
Best/worst cards
Remand flourishes against any Snapcaster Mage deck, but it excels vs. Twin. Enough of their spells cost 3+ mana to keep you Time Walking all game. Tarmogoyf is extremely hard for Twin to deal with and, like Remand, forces bad plays.
Sideboarding
Watch out for Threads of Disloyalty post-board; Ray of Revelation and Destructive Revelry already do work in this matchup, so bring those in. Qasali Pridemage is more fragile against a deck with so much red spot removal. Spellskite is riotous in this matchup, stealing Splinter Twin itself and countering Lightning Bolts for free. Against builds with Spellskite, Batterskull, and Vedalken Shackles, an Ancient Grudge helps. Max out on Path to Exile, Combust, and other unconditional creature removal for more blowouts.
The scariest card Twin has is Blood Moon (Don't worry about Thrun, he's too slow). If you anticipate the hoser, you can easily play around it with Remand, Spell Pierce, and enchantment hate. Gitaxian Probe also tips you off.
As long as he knows the plan, a Counter-Cat pilot shouldn’t struggle with UWR Control. Geist of Saint-Traft/Restoration Angel versions commit the unfortunate mistake of tapping out into Remand + Tarmogoyf, and draw-go versions simply bite it to steady, sequenced threats.
Gameplan
You want to be doing three things in this matchup:
- Playing your threats one at a time. Force the UWR pilot to out-tempo himself dealing with your clocks. Getting all your guys killed at once sucks, but an opponent sinking 4 mana into an uncounterable Wrath of God to kill a single Delver of Secrets shouldn't upset you in the slightest. So play them one at a time! More threats will come. Constant, one-creature pressure wins the game against this deck.
- Playing around opposing disruption. Gitaxian Probe obviously helps worlds here, but if you don't have it, UWR isn't that hard to read. If you know you can slide a threat in next turn, but not this one, save it. If you don't see an opportunity in the near future when you can slide your Goyf in under countermagic, and have no pressure on the table, just play it. UWR will draw lands forever as you draw one-mana Russet Wolves. Generally you'll have a hand full of gas and they'll have a grip of lands, and after you make them sub-optimally play all their cards, you'll be way up on advantage and can just roll over them.
- Maximizing your own disruption. In other words, pay attention. Know (this knowledge best achieved by grinding) when you need to hold up mana to protect your threat, and when it's more important to save that Spell Snare for a Snapcaster Mage. If you have another threat in hand, let them deal with your guy. Let them tap out to counter your next threat if you can cast Tarmogoyf. I've won many games against UWR Control on just two or three lands to their 10. You gain 4 mana worth of tempo by Spell Piercing a Batterskull (not to mention a Sphinx's Revelation), and that particular interaction should stand for the whole matchup. Another good example: Path to Exile on Celestial Colonnade (which, incidentally, leaves you with a window for Tarmogoyf). If they're throwing Electrolyze at you on your End Step, just take two damage. Save your countermagic for the cards that really matter, like those that remove your guys or put UWR up on cards. Be patient, and all those fancy cantrips will draw them a whole lot of Flooded Strand.
A note on mana denial: UWR Control gets a bit trickier if they have an intimate knowledge of your manabase, in which case you should hover around 3 perfect lands (i.e. complimentary Core Shocks and basic Island) to avoid getting cut off White or Red via Tectonic Edge. Luckily, the UWR pilot has no idea what the hell he's playing against most of the time.
Best/worst cards
Counterspells are the best cards in this matchup. Spell Pierce wins out over Remand, especially against versions with Planeswalkers, but the latter more effectively stops Flasback or Delve. Casting it on your own spells that UWR tries to Spell Snare also works wonders. Your best threat is Tarmogoyf; then Hooting Mandrills, then Wild Nacatl, then Delver of Secrets (which dies to Electrolyze pre-flip). Goyf lives through everything except Path to Exile, and UWR pilots will frequently double-Bolt him. Snapcaster Mage creates huge card advantage swings in your favor, especially with conditional counterspells (hitting two expensive UWR cards with a single Spell Pierce pushes them out of a game). Since games go long, Faithless Looting turns dead cards into free draws, and Isochron Scepter beats unsuspecting UWR players (e.g. all of them) pretty handily.
Sideboarding
Bring in your counterspells, side out your burn. Keep at least 3 Path to Exile and a Combust for the big white dudes. Boros Charm blanks uncounterable wipes, saves Goyfs from double-Bolts, and kills low-life opponents. Spellskite eats a good chunk of removal spells before finally dying and does a great job of buffering a Cat as you go to town. Mutagenic Growth saves your one-drops from Lightning Bolt for free, often even pushing through extra damage in the process.
Affinity plays lots of tiny dudes and attacks with them. It often ramps into these tiny dudes so it can drop its entire hand as early as the first turn and overwhelm opponents. Like most small-aggro decks, it has an inherent weakness to red removal like Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix, which we cast all day - especially with Snapcaster Mage. We also get access to the single greatest anti-Affinity card, Ancient Grudge.
Gameplan
Our goal in this matchup is to destroy as many creatures as possible. This goal takes precedence over our regular gameplan of stick-a-threat; we play defensively here because Affinity simply out-aggros us. Once their threats are gone, though, Wild Nacatl crashes in for easy wins. A trickier component of the matchup: knowing which removal spell to cast on which threat. Cast Lightning Helix over Bolt when you can, since it costs more mana. But watch out for Arcbound Ravager, which counters the lifegain by sacrificing the target. Save Path to Exile for Master of Etherium and whatever Arcbound Ravager grows. We can easily blow out newer or riskier Affinity pilots by Bolting modular targets.
Best/worst cards
Remand sucks here since Affinity plays everything for free. Boros Charm never rescues threats in this matchup, and we don't want to race (Tribal Flames is fine since it hits creatures). Spell Pierce counters Thoughtcast and Cranial Plating, and Spell Snare hard-counters half the deck. Tarmogoyf is our best clock, a 5/6 in this matchup. By the time we need a threat, his mana cost doesn't matter.
Sideboarding
Board out Delvers, Remand, and Spell Pierce for all the removal you can find (generally over half the sideboard). Destructive Revelry, Qasali Pridemage, and Ancient Grudge all have outside applications, and all completely trash Affinity. Fiery Justice takes out a full board. You might encounter Etched Champion, but all he does is block late-game 3/3s. Blood Moon beats you if you don't wait for it; Affinity will keep bad hands and expend extra resources to ramp into the enchantment, letting Spell Pierce win you games single-handedly.
Employing an attrition strategy, BGx decks aim to 1-for-1 opponents until the board states permits a topdecked Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, or Liliana of the Veil to carry the game away. Jund splashes R into the BG shell for Terminate and Lightning Bolt; Junk splashes W for Lingering Souls. Games against these decks are very grindy and have historically consisted of races to finishers (in our case, Tarmogoyf). Treasure Cruise swung it in our favor, but with the card banned, we're back to trying to keep Liliana off the table.
Jund runs Lightning Bolt and Anger of the Gods to efficiently deal with our weaker threats. Junk is tougher for Siege Rhino, but Hooting Mandrills tramples over Lingering Souls tokens.
Gameplan
We follow the normal plan against these decks, but our Phase 1 ends a lot sooner since BGx packs so much removal. As a result, most burn should be aimed at the face; other than Scavenging Ooze, BGx has no way to gain back life. Resolved Confidants actually help us out in Phase 2 but should be killed swiftly if we still have guys, since they draw BGx ways to remove our threats or block if the opponent prefers.
vs. The Rock: Spell Snare counters Confidant, Goyf, and Scooze. Lightning Bolt/Helix hits Treetop Village for big tempo swings. Path helps your guys not get outclassed, and casting it on Phyrexian Obliterator feels incredible. Against Tectonic Edge versions: get perfect mana off two Core shocks, fetch a basic Island, and never cast a fourth land unless they're manascrewed themselves and you have ample pressure.
vs. Junk: Stirring Wildwood blocks Delver, so keep Path up if that's your plan. Bait Path/Decay with the little guys so Tarmogoyf and Hooting Mandrills can deal some damage uncontested. Save Mana Leak for Liliana and Siege Rhino.
vs. Jund: They keep in Anger of the Gods against us, which can work in our favor since Goyf/Mandrills are so big and it eats Spell Pierce anyway. Mutagenic Growth also helps here. If you're expecting Anger, play threats one at a time and force Jund to cast AotG/Decay to deal with them. Bolting Raging Ravine rocks. Watch out for Fulminator Mage by either pressuring early or holding up Remand/Leak/Boros Charm.
Best/worst cards
vs. The Rock: Path to Exile is great in these matchups, especially with Snapcaster Mage. Dealing with a threat for a single mana really helps, especially when the opponent draws mostly lands to your spells. Boros Charm is crazy since it counters Abrupt Decay/Terminate/Maelstrom Pules/Lightning Bolt/Slaughter Pact (and they still pay 2B!)/etc. AND it goes to the face. Valorous Stance plays a similar role while dealing with enemy Goyfs, big Oozes, and Rhinos. Hooting Mandrills is easy to cast against BGx, and they can't discard him with Inquisition of Kozilek or target him with Abrupt Decay, making him even more resilient than Tarmogoyf (also one of the best cards in this MU). Spell Pierce hits Liliana of the Veil, Maelstrom Pulse, and the occasional Batterskull. EOT Snapcaster Mage into draw/removal is the best way to kill a -2'd Liliana (and your opponent).
vs. Junk: Remand/Forked Bolt/Engineered Explosives/Spell Pierce/Fiery Justice deal with Lingering Souls, and Mandrills tramples over them. Mana Leak really shines in this MU since it nabs Siege Rhino.
vs. Jund: Draw out Anger of the Gods and Abrupt Decay on a single creature to help out-tempo the Jund player (they'll spend much more mana killing your threats than you do casting them). Keep up Bolt for Raging Ravine if you predict it, and remember you can bluff one.
Sideboarding
Extra burn slays in these matchups since we transition to Phase 2 so rapidly. Delve enablers can come out as BGx does all the work for you, but Faithless Looting holds value given the grind. Boros Charm takes out shiny new Lilianas EOT. Unconditional removal (i.e. Valorous Stance) also helps. Helix for Confidant/Manlands/Reach, and make sure you have all your Spell Snare maindeck for games 2 and 3. Destructive Revelry deals with Batterskull and Courser of Kruphix if you're expecting those.
As the deck evolves, I'll dump outdated versions of the primer here for reference and history, along with the date the information became irrelevant.
Up until recently, Delver of Secrets saw limited play as the centerpiece of a UR deck with Young Pyromancer. While this one deck still casts all the Delvers in Modern, the famously underrated Insect has all but infested the format. This predicament begs the question: why not just play UR Delver? Maybe you like the raw power of our cards. Perhaps you enjoy winning with rogue decks. You might just want to stomp all those bandwagoning UR Delver newcomers. Counter-Cat has an excellent matchup against the format's other Tempo strategies, and holds steady ground against Modern's current boogeyman, Burn. Against non-Treasure Cruise decks, we have the added expediency of generating tremendous card advantage for a single Blue mana.
Deckbuilding guidelines
Hooting Mandrills: A 4/4 for
Treasure Cruise: Draw 3 for
Quantity of each depends on your personal list and meta. Cruise makes a splash (lol) in fields of BGx and control; Mandrills is at his furriest (lol!) against Lightning Bolt decks and tokens. Dig Through Time, while powerful, is wrong for the deck; mana efficiency is at a premium here, and there are better things you can do with two Blue mana (i.e. Cruise + Spell Pierce).
Guidelines for Delve inclusion
Dedicated Delve enablers (Thought Scour and Faithless Looting, both discussed in Spells below), with extra fetchlands and cantrips, let you run more Delve cards.
Two Delve cards: The deck supports two Delve cards on its own, even with just 9 fetches.
Three Delve cards: 10+ fetches, 3+ cantrips, and 1+ Delve enabler.
Four Delve cards: 11+ fetches, 3+ cantrips, and 2+ Delve enablers.
Five+ Delve cards: Those undercosted spells I mentioned are also highly conditional. For Counter-Cat to work, Delver of Secrets has to be 3/2 as often as possible. Spell Pierce has to counter a spell as often as possible. In a best-case scenario, we could resolve five Delve spells in a game. But our Delve cards should cost 1 mana as often as possible, and since multiples cannibalize each other, playing more than 4 greatly reduces their consistency.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
link?
link?
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: @ashtonkutcher, nice primer. I get to play a ton of magic in the near future, so I will get to give some input (especially the 5c version (but atm I think the 5c version is to greedy)).
PPS: @Lantern, there is an old thread but I suggest, that it doesn't get merged, since it only has some few posts and nothing relevant (and we have here an amazing primer
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Interesting story - I was playing against UR Delver today and they cast Vapor Snag on Hooting Mandrills twice and Remanded him once. Still ended up planting him and trampling over Elementals for the win. I'm still amazed how easy it is to cast him in this deck, but I think 2 is the right number (drawing 3 would probably blow). Still, I'm convinced he's one of the best cards in the deck. I even want to draw him over Tarmogoyf lots of the time.
@Kathal the BGx matchup definitely gets easier with Boros Charm. I like Helixes in this MU too to deal with Confidant and Scavenging Ooze (which can be a real hassle if it gets going, keeping you off Goyf/Mandrills and gaining them a ton of life in the late game). Again, this matchup gets much better with Mandrills.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells: 25
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Helix
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
1 Electrolyze
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Moorland Haunt
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Steam Vents
2 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Back to Nature
1 Counterflux
2 Path to Exile
2 Spellskite
1 Stony Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wear // Tear
I've been liking 19 lands but I may try out going to 18. I don't agree with running 10-12 fetches. It seems excessive. I need to cut Sacred Foundry from my list. I had a couple hands recently where it made getting the right colors off of my opening hand difficult. I highly recommend Noble Hierarch in this deck. Not only does it give you mana advantage and decent mana fixing but Exalted is also extremely relevant in cutting the clock down on the deck. Going from 7 turns to kill to 5 (assuming no other damage/lifegain). Moorland Haunt has been an awesome source of grindy advantage. It was better with Runechanter's Pike but with Grim Lavamancer and Snapcaster, Pike has gotten a bit worse in the deck. Sword of Fire and Ice has been pretty great but 3cmc is a bit awkward.
I like the idea of playing Hooting Mandrills. It won't come down until turn 4+ but costing G for a 4/4 that can't be decayed seems good. I'll have to give that a try next time I play. I didn't like Tarmogoyf in the deck when I played with him. It generally wasn't much bigger than a Nacatl or Delver and having to tap out on turn 2 for it meant sacrificing disruption for the opponent's plays. Outside of Snapcaster (really a 3 or 4 drop in the deck for value) I wanted all my creatures to cost 1 mana.
The flex spots I've been playing with are: 1 Electrolyze, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Grim Lavamancer, 1 Sacred Foundry. I'm wanting to try out Jeskai Charm over Electrolyze and possibly Forked Bolt or Arc Trail over Sacred Foundry. I originally had Ajani Vengeant in the deck who was solid and won games if he landed but I often found myself winning before I needed to resolve him. I wouldn't mind getting a Planeswalker back into the deck (over sword maybe) but I'm unsure of which one to go with. Elspeth, Knight Errant, Garruk Relentless and Sarkhan Vol are others I have considered.
I have been really happy with the core of the deck. I have trouble against Merfolk and Bloom Titan, GBx decks and Control are pretty favorable, Pod decks favorable, Twin decks are about 50/50. Burn and Affinity are about 50/50 game 1 and get much better game 2+. I have really been enjoying the deck. If you play tight, it wins and fast.
Very interesting take. 10-12 fetches are certainly unnecessary with a full playset of Noble Hierarch supporting your mana. I like the Hierarchs, but not playing Tarmogoyf is almost definitely wrong. You'd be better off with Goyfs than Nacatls; the reason to splash W into a typically RUG shell is to have an additional threat in Wild Nacatl (operative term: additional). I'm surprised Goyf wasn't good in your testing but I seriously doubt you tested him extensively enough. He's easily the best card in the deck.
With that in mind, we identify the problem with Hierarch as a spacial one. Adding 4 Goyfs to your list puts us at 20 creatures, way too many for Delver (especially plus noncreature permanents AND 19-21 lands, which you need to make your higher curve function). With the pricier spells like Sword and Thrun and your inclination to try running Planeswalkers, I recommend you try a RUG shell, cutting the Helices and Nacatls for more versatile spells and Tarmogoyf. I base this suggestion on the premise that Tarmogoyf is better in this deck than Nacatl, and I'll stand by that premise TIL I DIEEEEEEE (Chris Brown).
As it stands, your deck looks like a Hierarch strain of RUG Delver (which isn't completely unheard of in Modern) with Wild Nacatl instead of Tarmogoyf and an entire color splash so you can also run Lightning Helix over Vedalken Shackles, Cryptic Command, and Blood Moon from the side. That doesn't seem worth it to me. I'm not saying it can't win, but I think you'd win much more without white. If you really want to play Nacatl and Delver in the same deck, you need Goyfs; if you run Goyfs, you have no room for Hierarch.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
There is 1 or 2 slots for anything that costs more than 2 in my deck (which is only a concession to having occasional later game power). I don't see how recommending I drop a color and force Cryptic, Shackles and Blood Moon into a deck is a reasonable suggestion to what I have been trying to achieve with the curve. I can appreciate that Goyf has worked for you, but basically telling me to post elsewhere because my deck is inferior on the premise that I don't run 1 card that you like (with the insubstantial claim that "[it's] better in this deck than Nacatl," to back that up). Honestly it makes me not really care to take you seriously. However, I hope this is just us getting off to a poor start and would like to give you the benefit of the doubt. Just in the future I would like to get better responses than "Play a different deck."
How has Gitaxian Probe been working for you? I've considered running it but I don't like the uncertainty it put into an opening hand as well as taking additional damage on top of starting most games at 14-16 life. Has it been worthwhile for you? Has it cost you any games? With only 2 Helix to off set the self inflicted damage, I'd imagine Burn and Affinity end up being extremely difficult match ups.
No worries! If it works for you, by all means keep playing it. But in my extensive testing, I personally have found Goyf indispensable. I think the issue is you're thinking Goyf is something he's not. You don't just slam him ASAP against any deck; once he's bolt-proof, he presents both a serious clock and especially a hard body, something our other threats fail to do. This combination, for a measly 1G, explains his status as a tempo mainstay across every format in which he's legal. His best application and primary role: play him after opponents have dealt with Delver/Nacatl, since they can just bolt those guys. Goyf comes down for cheap to mop up and immediately regains any traction you might have lost with his ridiculous stats.
Burn and Affinity are actually favorable matchups for this build. It's pretty easy to tell when you're facing burn (Mountain, Rift Bolt, go), and once you know, slam a threat and then play very conservatively. Let lands come into play tapped and keep up Spell Pierce for Bolts. The matchup is something like 50/50 pre-board but it swings into favorable after, since you get extra Helices, Negate, and Spellskite. Usually if you resolve just one Lightning Helix you can't lose. Remand and obviously Gitaxian Probe come out here but cheap threats stay in since we need to start clocking Burn as quickly as possible.
Affinity is an even easier matchup, especially for versions of Counter-Cat that run lots of creature-targeting burn in the MD. Take a look at my sample list above - for g2 and g3, I'm actually bringing in 10 cards from the sideboard including Spellskite, Qasali Pridemage, Destructive Revelry, Ancient Grudge, Spell Snare, Engineered Explosives, and Forked Bolt if I'm running it that day. I side out the full set of Delvers in this matchup, as well as Remands and maybe some Spell Pierce if I need to, and play a proactive control game. Affinity can't even close to keep up with a critical mass of removal. Affinity is much more relevant a matchup than Burn IMO, and one of this deck's great strengths is how good the Twin, Affinity, Tron, and Pod matchups are, since these decks more or less dominate any given meta.
Against both Burn and Affinity, incidentally, Tarmogoyf is the best threat. He's frequently a 5/6 (between Eidolon of the Great Revel and all those artifacts), which puts either deck on a very fast clock.
Regarding Gitaxian Probe: It's much better if you run a lot of Spell Pierce/Spell Snare, and it's also better with more Snapcaster Mage and Hooting Mandrills. Lately I'm starting to think versions without Mandrills shouldn't exist, so I'm mostly brewing lists with 3-4 Probes. The info is crazy in this deck. When all your soft permission works, you don't even feel like you're playing Magic since you get ahead so fast.Oops, didn't read this before I wrote what I have above, but yeah I agree entirely. Couldn't have better described why Tarmogoyf is so essential to the archetype.
As far as the late-game goes, although I'm not sure this was directed at me, I may have misspoke when I said "our mid-game is our late-game." Although cards like Spell Pierce are generally better earlier, we can tangle with late-game decks perfectly well on a comparatively underdeveloped board state since the efficiency of our spell suite allows us to dictate the pace of the game. One of the deck's strengths is how well it topdecks against most of the field, and especially against grindy decks that make games go long anyway (Jund, UWR, etc.) - we run 17 to 19 lands, whereas many midrange and control strategies in Modern run closer to 24. I always beat UWR, frequently with just 2-4 lands in play to their ~9, simply because I'm actually drawing spells all game and their one-for-oneing can't keep up if they're drawing Sulfur Falls. If you play threats conservatively in these matchups, you can force opponents to spend tons of mana to deal with 1-mana dudes (i.e. by casting Supreme Verdict) and then just slam replacements from the selection you've accumulated over the turns.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I've found, like you, that more burn definitely improves midrange matchups. Still, I'm wondering if you don't have too much. When you burn players out, do you generally have a few more turns you could have used to do it with? Do you have extra damage sitting in your hand/on your board by the time they hit 0? If you answered yes to these questions, you may want to cut back on burn for something more diverse. I like cantrips because a) they pump Goyf and b) they help you find what you need. In matchups where burn is less relevant and you want more counterspells, Serum Visions lets you put Helix on the bottom so you can draw a Leak. Keep in mind you only need to be one turn faster than enemy decks. The key here is to find the balance in terms of card choices so you can be one turn faster as much as possible. Being 2-3 turns faster doesn't do anything for us; a win's a win.
Similarly, you don't want to go overkill on Lightning Helix, since it's expensive and only does one thing. If you're frequently finding yourself at 10-14 life when you win, you probably have too many in the MD. I think with the route you're going for, you want a fourth Boros Charm in the main over a Helix (deals more damage, has additional utility), but only your testing will tell.
2. All that aside, I do like this list, and I really like the Geist list it's inspired by. I think you definitely need a pair of Hooting Mandrills, or at least one over Clique. I flirted a lot with Clique in the earlier stages of my testing (as you know) since I wanted an additional beater, but Mandrills totally outclasses her here. Try him. I also favor a 3/2 Pierce/Snare split to the opposite; why did you choose to run so many Spell Snare? Pierce is really the workhorse of the deck IMO.
3. Vs. BGx: Burn helps, Mandrills helps, Path helps. Whoever sticks more Goyfs wins, so if you have more Goyfs (Mandrills) and more ways to deal with Goyfs (Path) you're golden. I like Spell Pierce in this matchup to deal with Liliana of the Veil, and Boros Charm is crazy since it counters Abrupt Decay/Terminate/Maelstrom Pules/Lightning Bolt/Slaughter Pact (and they still pay 2B!)/etc. I've recently cut the Pridemages from my SB since they're so hard to cast unless you're on Pool/Foundry (which I'm not, for reasons explained in the primer) and started running a single Chained to the Rocks in the side to help with Pod/big creature decks. I like that card against BGx too since it deals with another big threat. I also bring in my Spell Snares here, they're excellent.
The Rock: Spell Snare counters Confidant, Goyf, and Scooze. Destructive Revelry deals with Batterskull and Courser if you're expecting those. Lightning Bolt/Helix hits Treetop Village for big tempo swings. Paths help your guys not get outclassed, and casting it on Phyrexian Obliterator feels incredible. Additional unconditional removal (i.e. Chained to the Rocks) can't hurt. Extra burn slays in these matchups. Boros Charm even takes out shiny new Lilianas EOT.
+Lingering Souls (Junk): Remand/Forked Bolt/Engineered Explosives/Spell Pierce/Fiery Justice deal with Lingering Souls. Stirring Wildwood costs too much mana for its P/T to really mess with us, but it does block Delver, so keep Path up if that's your plan. Mandrills tramples over Souls tokens.
+Lightning Bolt (Jund): They keep in Anger of the Gods against us, which actually works in our favor since Goyf/Mandrills are so big. If you're expecting it, play threats one at a time and force Jund to spend lots of mana to deal with them. Bolting Raging Ravine rocks.I think the best direction to go in regarding the sideboard is to have the option to adjust your gameplan significantly. Take a look at my sample SB in the primer:
2 Boros Charm
2 Negate
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Spell Snare
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Lightning Helix
1 Combust
1 Forked Bolt
It's not "transformational" per se, but this sideboard lets me completely change the way the deck functions. Against creature decks (i.e. Merfolk), I board out Remand, Gitaxian Probe, and Spell Pierce for Lightning Helix, Combust, Forked Bolt, Destructive Revelry, and Spell Snare. Against control decks (i.e. Tron), I board out Helix and Bolt for Negate, Spell Snare, and Boros Charm. After siding, the deck can have up to 10 burn spells (4 Bolt, 3 Helix, 3 Boros) or up to 12 counters (Remand, Leak, Pierce, Snare, Negate), which basically just leaves room for the creatures and the cantrips. Probe + Visions don't just take up room, though; they virtually increase the amount of each other card I run. 10 burn spells or 12 counters + 7 cantrips is no joke when those kinds of cards are good.
Given the awesome tech our color suite affords us, and all the direct damage we run already, I can't imagine going all-in on a transformational burn sideboard being worthwhile. I do like the idea of an Isochron Scepter though and will look into testing it against non-Decay decks (just picked up a foil!).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
If someone wants to play Scepter (like myself), he has to acknowledge that scepter shouldn't be a 2 drop but a 4 drop. If you have 4 mana and cast a scpeter you will never get 2 for 1. Furthermore, imprinting a Boros Charm is the best case scenario. Why? Because it can protect itself due to the indestructible part from the Charm. Hence, the opponent would need 2 cards to get rid of Scepter (first one would get "countered" by the boros charm).
I will post my brainstormed list in the next few days (basically the 4c version, since Tribal Flames got worse due to the printing of Hooting Ape).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I covered fetch amounts in detail in the primer, check the Lands section. To optimize, you can't run less than 10, and you can't run more than 12. I also considered Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta up there. I don't think Wooded Foothills is good enough unless you're on BP/SF and it's especially important to you to have additional ways to fetch basic Forest (pretty narrow). For shocks, keep BP/SF if you're running Simic Charm since it casts that. The color combinations that BP/SF cast are RG, GW, GU, and UW. I personally don't like the pair because I don't run any of those combinations main, and I can cast RG for Revelry off Garden/Vents anyway. You'll notice I cut the Pridemages from my sideboard; I did that because it sucks to get to GW off the core shock lands. But I still consider Vents, Garden, Ground, and Fountain the core since they cast Boros Charm and Lightning Helix, cards we must run in this archetype. So, if you really want to run Simic Charm go ahead, just know that it encourages you to run BP/SF which makes the rest of the manabase a little less consistent. And yes, you should definitely nix that second Steam Vents.
How is Tribal Flames worse with Ape? As you know I'm not a huge proponent of the card myself, but I don't see how Mandrills makes it less effective. Regarding Scepter, I played one in the side tonight and it won me two games. Brought it in against Esper Control and Monoblack Control. Once it hit the table it was just an inevitability thing (once with Lightning Bolt, once with Charm). Jeff Hoogland in his article on UWR Delver makes the same point as you regarding Boros Charm (that it can protect the Scepter indefinitely), but I totally disagree here. If you tap Scepter to cast Charm, opponents can Abrupt Decay it in response. And Scepter does nothing if you just sit there with it untapped all the time so you can protect it from destruction. With these facts in mind I think it's best to run Scepter out early in MUs you want it in, ideally with Lightning Helix underneath since it helps you race while applying pressure. T1 threat, T2 Scepter with Remand/Leak should also win you lots of games - opponents simply don't have time under pressure to not cast anything for 3 turns. Also, if you play it with 2 untapped mana, you can still get 2-for-1ed, since you're down a card (and mana!) by exiling the spell you cast to an artifact. Either way, I think it merits more testing but I won't add it to the primer until I'm convinced it's great here.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Regarding Scepter, of course you want to use it, but you should play it when you have 4 mana. At that point, you can never get 2 for 1, because you can still get at least one copy of the imprinted spell and then it is a "2 for 2". Afterwards, you use it normal, so most of the times eot. You shouldn't hold it up every turn and don't use it because you are afraid of Decay, in the end it is a decayable thread, which doesn't get hit by Bolt/Path/Dismember..., which is insane. I would run it as 2 of in the SB since you want it nearly in every match-up, where there is no decay (all URx decks, other Tempo decks, Zoo, Affinity, Combo decks (I heard, imprinting a Remand/Manaleak provides a little bit of value
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Picture this: You play Scepter and imprint Helix on it, 2 mana up. Pass. EOT opponent Decays your Scepter; you respond by Helixing him. You spent 2 cards (Scepter and Helix) and he spent 1 (Decay). That's a 2-for-1, even though you got the effect. It's like Vampiric Tutoring for Dark Confidant on your upkeep, casting it, moving to end step, and getting it Bolted. Yeah, you still got to play the Confidant, but you still got 2-for-1'd.
STILL, if the Confidant survives, he'll draw you lots of cards and negate that potential disadvantage; Scepter does the same thing, and is much harder to kill than a 2/1. I think 2 in the board is too many since it cuts your options for other matchups by a card (priceless in this deck) and Scepter, even as a 1-off, occasionally shows up in your hand with no Instant/Sorcery besides Mana Leak to imprint on it. It's really sweet when you get it with a burn spell, but otherwise, it does nothing.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I've made some changes to my list to try out in the coming weeks.
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Hooting Mandrills
Spells: 26
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
4 Lightning Helix
1 Simic Charm
1 Jeskai Charm
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
2 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Slayers' Stronghold
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Path to Exile
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spellskite
1 Wear // Tear
1 Stony Silence
1 Back to Nature
1 Counterflux
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
I cut Sacred Foundry for an additional Spell Snare, Sword of Fire and Ice for Simic Charm, Electrolyze for Jeskai Charm, Grim Lavamancer for Hooting Mandrills, and Moorland Haunt for Slayer's Stronghold. I wanted to give 18 lands a try, which opened up a slot for another spell that needed to hit low on the curve. I also want to see what 26 spells is like, so I cut Sword which in turn makes Moorland Haunt weaker (as well as competing with Mandrills) so those both got replaced. Slayers' Stronghold is the best of the on-color Innistrad ability lands for the deck. I'm not crazy about having to tap out main phase for it, but it seems better than Alchemist's Refuge for 16 non-Instant/Flash cards.
Hopefully that one-off Mandrills will convince you to try Tarmogoyf again. Did you read the posts on Page 1 from Lemonbuster and TOXICjoker about him? 4 MD Helix seems like a lot, and I don't like lands that don't make colors/count as basic types. Either way, I like your list better with a big dude and no Sword.
PRIMER UPDATE: added a section on BGx decks to Matchup Anaylses. I also fleshed out the Lands section, exhaustively describing optimal fetchland combinations depending on manabase.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Keep a one-land, one-threat hand
T1 Serum
T2 Cat, Pierce their Bolt
T3+ Ride Cat to burn range
EOT Bolt-Snap-Bolt
If Pierce is Snare in these types of scenarios, Control players can deal with our limited threats upon casting, laughing as you throw Charms at them while their manabase develops and Snapping back Lightning Helix. If you want to go with a burn-heavy, counterspell-light approach, I think you need more threats, maybe even the full 18 (IMO the max for this deck) with another Snapcaster Mage (good with burn) and a second Mandrills (good because of the situations so much burn and so few counters open you up to).
I'm also hesitant to lose the ability to go either all-burn or all-counters after siding. That's been one of my favorite aspects of the deck since you can tune it to have great game against any archetype. Wrote about it here:
As for sideboard choices, I don't like double Combust; not versatile enough. Vapor Snag/Simic Charm does the same thing and more in that second slot. Also not a fan of Scavenging Ooze since he eats ALL your mana. Your deck has 3 Green sources and you won't want to actively search out more than one until you see him. I'll think about a better option for grave hate tonight, right now Surgical Extraction seems like the only viable card.
BTW: Side out your Delvers against Affinity but not your Cats. We need minimal threats in this matchup since we want to Revelry-Snap-Revelry-Bolt-Grudge-Snap-Bolt them into submission and THEN cast a beater to clean up. Cat doesn't have to flip, so he's better in this role. And yeah he gets blocked by Champion, but they'll just be chumping by that point in the game and you'll have multiple threats. In other words, Champion will be blocking a Tarmogoyf anyway.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy