Oh and IoK being better than thoughtseize, except against tron lol.
Maybe if you didn't spread so far out into 3 or 4 colors, you could run Fulminator Mage
Ranting on Raven's Crime is funny, it should be slow it's a freaking win-con. You're not supposed to be retracing that card on turn 2, act accordingly.
Tell me how these 3 cards effect your matchup against aggro, combo, and control. Smallpox, loam, crime. You're not supposed to be dredging loam every turn...
You're supposed to be discarding a land with pox not something that likes to be in the graveyard... So that loam can bring it back. Hence the fetch, sac a land, discard a land. Now you have 3 lands in graveyard. Maybe a loam in hand. And your t1 play should have been a discard. Or maybe you play brutality on turn 2 as opposed to pox.
Brutality is good. Ghost quarter is good. Not once did I say not to run both brutality and pox, with the plan being to discard LANDS.
Are you seeing it yet? A strong matchup against aggro, burn, tron, control, and combo and even greedy manabases... With a whole lot less of graveyard exiled just screwed me.
Ambushing a thread because it was using dredge and turning it into zombie dredge.... When it shouldn't have been using dredge in the first place except for soft-locking your opponent's hand with crime. Took a tangent from the original deck. Even Levy himself was partnering with someone who went into a black/white pox/rack kind of deck... And that deck happens to be tier 1. It just doesn't use loam.
Start thinking hard about what loam actually is because if you're trying to build an aggro deck with it you're doing it wrong.
Take the time to listen to a viable deck with strong consistent and proactive early game disruption, with loam exclusively used to negate the discarding lands aspect, rather than the dredge aspect which is really just icing. Maybe you should get back to pox and loam or create a new thread.
I mean that's the key: consistency from smallpox with collective brutality. They both do a lot of similar things. You could play either on turn 2 and BG has many 1, 2, or 3 mana options that can control a hand/board. You don't even need to run more than 3 Loam and 1 RC, but 2 RC is far more consistent. It's a Grindy deck nonetheless. The deck wants to play a top deck battle with a couple planesWalker on board to maximize smallpox/board wipes efficiency.
That was one of the issues with smallpox, what happens if I only have 1 or zero in hand. Brutality is a superior card but that doesn't make smallpox less valuable than it already was.
You don't need extra discard engines when you have pox, brutality, Liliana. Since the main discard targets are lands(loam), you don't need cards that advance your win-con to discard. This allows you to add sideboard cards that you can discard if you don't need them. Rather than stuff like blood ghast or lingering souls. Good cards no doubt, but not as strong as torpor orb, damping sphere, ensnaring bridge, damnation, etc.
It will take me a long time to come up with a decent deck list, it's a process of research of what people have done with it, and gatherer and we all know it takes a few hours just to go through a lone color. I don't have that time right now but maybe I'll have something in a week.
Someone once mentioned some good advice on these forums. It's not about win-cons. It's about getting there. And in a Grindy pox kind of deck my thought is control the board, top deck them, and let planesWalker finish it. I mean u could just 8rack them, but that's boring.
Ambushing a thread because it was using dredge and turning it into zombie dredge.... When it shouldn't have been using dredge in the first place except for soft-locking your opponent's hand with crime. Took a tangent from the original deck. Even Levy himself was partnering with someone who went into a black/white pox/rack kind of deck... And that deck happens to be tier 1. It just doesn't use loam.
Start thinking hard about what loam actually is because if you're trying to build an aggro deck with it you're doing it wrong.
Take the time to listen to a viable deck with strong consistent and proactive early game disruption, with loam exclusively used to negate the discarding lands aspect, rather than the dredge aspect which is really just icing. Maybe you should get back to pox and loam or create a new thread.
I have been playing this deck since 2015 and posting on this forum since early 2016, so I have seen the progression this thread (and Levy himself, who I have spoken to) has taken from a slow control deck to a more aggressive deck that stands a chance against combo.
This thread has not been "hijacked", it has simply evolved into a deck which in my opinion runs smoother. I would also like to point out that Raphael Levy was the one who changed this deck (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13059) so blaming us for the change is incorrect.
When I used to play the Loam Pox version about 3 years ago, I found it to be very slow and a lot of decks would beat me before I had a chance to set up. However, I can't wait to see and try this amazing list that your working on which proves all the "hijackers" and Raphael Levy wrong.
#1 Objective of Loam Pox is to topdeck opponent. Casting a TS/IoK on turn 1 followed by Pox, Brutality, or Decay on turn 2 is a great way to slow down your opponent. How in the world is combo supposed to beat this? That's 18-20 cards of this deck and should be pretty consistent.
Mid game focus is still on controlling hand/board with those 2 drops as well as Liliana until you can transitions into the late game...
Loam lets you replay lands like Bojuka Bog and Ghost Quarter, as well as pump raven's crime at will. This hoses pretty much every blue control deck out there. And you can recycle your man-lands too, as if that wasn't enough.
Discard decks can be susceptible to graveyard strategies and a lot of very good decks abuse the hell out of the graveyard either way. Bog: another land you can loam pox.
Pox alone against Tron is not a way to consistently beat Tron, but Loaming a GQ is.
Limit threats, and let Liliana and a man-land do the rest. That's the game-plan and look how many flex slots are available.
I'm liking this outline. I think I'd like another win con besides just man lands though. And if you are building a grindy deck why not play Black's grindiest card? Bitterblossom!
Here's a jumping off point. Seems fun, if a little slow. You really need a great opening hand for a deck like this to pay off I think. Maybe we should add ways to generate card advantage long term to add to our Loams. This could help us beat Blue Control decks and may only be necessary in the sideboard. Maybe Bob or Arena would help but that's starting to get really painful. Let me know what you guys think and where we might want to take this deck.
Maybe this is getting too deep but Traverse the Ulvenwald may be useful as well. We can tutor up silver bullet lands like Bojuka Bog and Radiant Fountain for certain match ups.
I think the deck should look a bit like BG rock. It's a good deck that has a similar game plan as our deck. I debated tracker but because of smallpox I thought it might not be good enough. It's also quite the lightning rod in a creatureless deck.
Bloodghast has always felt a little weak to me, especially in a slow grindy deck. But with 4 Collected Brutality and 4 Smallpox it's probably correct to run some number of them.
Actually the core cards in a loam pox thread are loam and pox. But yea dude build an inferior assault loam deck with with infestation and 3 or 4 colors. And go ahead and make a zombie loam thread.
Loam is here to keep smallpox and brutality discards advantagous simply by recycling 3 lands. You probably won't dredge it but once or twice.
There's always the 8 rack clock.
The thing about ghast is it can't block and it doesn't exactly fit a Grindy deck that wants to let Liliana control a game.
I had that same opinion about the card draw. There's a lot of one for one in this deck sans pox/brutality so its important to have card advantage. But if you're looking for creatures, it goes against pox and takes up card slots. Arena or sign in blood could work though.
If you’re not using Loam to it’s full potential then it’s not really Loam pox, right? At that point you might as well play BW with flagstones of trokair and Gideons.
Honestly though these are all pretty niche decks, I don’t quite see why we can’t use the thread to discuss the different variations, considering that would just splinter the discussion in this bread to even smaller.
What do you mean, not using it to its fullest. Not building a dredge deck here. Just negating the discard drawbacks of having the consistency of BOTH pox and brutality. Along with Liliana. With that said, BG team doesn't scoop to GY hate and cards that exile ghast. Nor does it REQUIRE fast access to infestation, or its win-con. It's not like BG won't use 3 loams and 1 or 2 Raven's.
Long live being unrestricted in deckbuilding around zombie infestation, which unfortunately doesn't have copies 5-8 and has to come into play quick.
Polar opposite decks but BG team has a much more consistent and streamlined approach that loses to less hate... And even has a smaller core allowing for more versatility when it comes to adding hate cards of its own. UW control follows a similar game plan in a different way. BW pox also plays similarly, we're just using loam instead of flagstones. Recurring cards like field of ruins or bojuka bog has its advantages especially against tron or greedy manabase decks that live in the graveyard.
@maniospas: I see you're not running collective brutality, why?
It's better than pox, why not run both for both versatility and consistency?
Grindy control decks don't need fast pressure. They just need pressure. You keep saying that BG needs fast pressure. The deck runs similar to UW control except it uses black discard instead of blue counterspells. Control the hand/board and finish with Liliana/nissa. Maybe even shrieking affliction. You gonna go into the UW control thread and tell them they need more pressure faster?
@maniospas you're right, I've never played Loam Pox. But I have a lot of experience with BW Smallpox and I feel like they have similar game plans. The main difference is that BW has better late game Planeswalkers and this deck has Loam. So I'm guessing that means this deck leans more on Bloodghast and the red cards seen in some of the decks in this thread. My experience with BW Smallpox has been that Bloodghast is nice in some match ups but it never felt necessary.
@Danr2000 just because the deck we are discussing has the same color combination as the rock doesn't mean it's the same deck. BG rock has nothing near the power level of Smallpox. Yes, decks in the same colors use similar cards. And no, tarmogoyf would be bad in this deck because of smallpox. The starting point of the deck is Loam and Pox and we are working from there. Bear with us for a bit and we may be able to come up with a competitive deck.
Since this is a Loam Pox thread I feel like Smallpox is a very important part of the deck and should probably be on your list of "core cards". I understand some people have developed the deck in a different direction and that's fine, but I think a Loam Pox deck belongs in this thread.
@ElvesotShelves I'm not sure BG 8 Rack is where we want to go with this deck. I've played a bit of 8 rack and I'm generally skeptical of people trying to throw in another color because it usually ends up diluting the primary game plan. What are you cutting from mono black 8 rack to accommodate the Loams? The deck is very streamlined and it's already very efficient. It already plays Smallpox and Raven's Crime without a need for restocking it's lands because most of the deck is 1cmc. And nissa seems a bit expensive though very powerful. I could see running 1. The -3 doesn't seem all the useful since we are mostly sorcery cards. But the +1 and -6 are good enough on their own to warrant at least a test.
I think Bloodghast belongs in the deck, at least in some number. Like maniospas said, you need something left over after you've one-for-oned a million times and Bloodghast works great alongside Smallpox and Collective Brutality.
@Danr2000
Wow is this streamlined in many areas! I'm still hesitant on 4th Squee over another discard outlet though. Also, concerning your manabase, I usually like having a second mountain to lategame play loam->fetch + 2 lands -> 4th land drop -> conflagrate without shocking (perhaps over Delta, which appears a bit clunky).
Any comments on Srart//Finish vs preboard Scooze in Jund? (I want that slot to solve this exact issue and if I can do that with an otherwise dredgeable answer I'd be more than happy to. Is it possible that Deadly Allure is equally good for less mana?)
I agree with you, that we definitely don't want to make a bad BG Rock.
That said, I was thinking that maybe we could try a type of BG deck that heavily utilizes our traditional engines while forgoing looting + conflagrate. Something like this (manabase needs a bit more tweaking, but it's almost fine):
Still, after testing in this direction again after a long time, I have to say builds feel absolutely horrendous compared to the card advantage and ease of finding action/presenting a clock I'm used to.
Note for the BG team: having disruption is meaningless if you can't present a fast clock.
@Old_bag_o_bones
I believe you vastly misunderstand how Ghasts work in this thread's archetype: the main idea is to disrupt the opponent and, while doing so, go "oh, while I killed your creatures/hand, I *accidentally* pus some Ghasts in my yard, so have fun trying to find an answer to not die while I draw more gas". I used to play 3x Molten Vortex + more lands instead, but being free and getting them randomly as you dredge for conflagrate/infestation is invaluable.
I agree with your assessment of polluted delta as the only reason why I play it is because I can't afford verdant catacombs . I will definitely try the mountain instead.
As for start // finish, I haven't managed to try it yet but I'm pretty sure it would be better than deadly allure because you get to choose what dies. I have no idea if its better than the 2nd lightning axe but I am desperate for a removal I can play from the graveyard. Postboard against Scooze I will definately swap it for the axe in my sideboard to try to respond to the opponent boarding in graveyard hate.
What do you mean, not using it to its fullest. Not building a dredge deck here. Just negating the discard drawbacks of having the consistency of BOTH pox and brutality. Along with Liliana. With that said, BG team doesn't scoop to GY hate and cards that exile ghast. Nor does it REQUIRE fast access to infestation, or its win-con. It's not like BG won't use 3 loams and 1 or 2 Raven's.
Long live being unrestricted in deckbuilding around zombie infestation, which unfortunately doesn't have copies 5-8 and has to come into play quick.
Polar opposite decks but BG team has a much more consistent and streamlined approach that loses to less hate... And even has a smaller core allowing for more versatility when it comes to adding hate cards of its own. UW control follows a similar game plan in a different way. BW pox also plays similarly, we're just using loam instead of flagstones. Recurring cards like field of ruins or bojuka bog has its advantages especially against tron or greedy manabase decks that live in the graveyard.
This is where I'm at. I know that pox decks struggle against Tron, which is where Loam/GQ comes in.
I like shrieking affliction more than rack(enchantment) It's not just making room for loam, but abrupt decay and Maelstrom pulse.
I have very little experience with pox decks but if green gives u access to decay, pulse, and a stronger matchup against Tron, there's reason to believe it has merit.
I'd like to just main board a set of affliction. And sideboard hate cards like torpor orb or damping sphere. So, is 4 copies, some man-lands and LotV enough?
Lol at this other guy. This list looks nothing like the one you posted. Try reading, before spewing nonsense. Infraction issued for flaming. Deck evolution isn't nonsense. --CavalryWolfPack
I have very little experience with pox decks but if green gives u access to decay, pulse, and a stronger matchup against Tron, there's reason to believe it has merit.
I don't understand why you're so certain of the deck's strength that you act aggressively towards any other build if you have very little experience. The reason he keeps sating BG rock is because your goal - a BG control shell that attacks the hand and board - is much better implemented in rock, and since you're actively cutting Loam synergies you'd probably be best cutting them all and switching to rock.
If you want to make a zombie loam deck. Go make a zombie loam thread. More updated lists are cutting pox in favor of brutality? Then it's not a smallpox deck... Is it?
And you still haven't answered my question: why run pox without brutality, or vice versa.
@ElvesotShelves I don't think you should play only 4 racks. There are green 8 rack decks around so I would look at those if you want to go that route with the deck. I can find one if you're interested. I have some experience with mono black 8 rack and I don't really foresee Loam being all that useful in the deck. You don't need to splash for removal because Inquisition and Thoughtseize are good enough catch-alls.
@Danr2000, @twakatsonic Not sure what your issue is with us discussing an alternative Loam Pox deck... (besides the general rudeness in the air...) I don't want to play BG Rock and I think Loam Pox offers a lot of value that BG Rock doesn't generate. I think in general the posters here are underestimating the value of Smallpox. Also, I counted, my posted list (which admittedly was just a spit ball of an idea) shares about 30 cards with this BG Rock deck... so it's very different even if it has a similar plan.
I don't understand the bickering guys. Everyone's allowed to build and test whatever they want. The way I see it, there's three parts of the title Raphael Levy, Loam, and Pox. Jund people are still following 2/3 of the title (Levy and Loam) and BG people are following another 2/3 (Loam and Pox). So both decks belong here. Neither are tier 1 so I don't think it's a big deal.
I have very little experience with pox decks but if green gives u access to decay, pulse, and a stronger matchup against Tron, there's reason to believe it has merit.
I don't understand why you're so certain of the deck's strength that you act aggressively towards any other build if you have very little experience. The reason he keeps sating BG rock is because your goal - a BG control shell that attacks the hand and board - is much better implemented in rock, and since you're actively cutting Loam synergies you'd probably be best cutting them all and switching to rock.
One of us misunderstands what this thread is about: I believe it's about Levy's grindfest builds, which eventually evolved into squeeflagrate by abandoning pox because it didn't work as intended speed-wise with the deck's core. I'm more than welcoming to examining pox builds (you'll hear me nag, but I definitely won't complain that it's the wrong thread) but pox has not been the defining characteristic of the archetype for years now. If you feel that the thread name is misleading, then perhaps this is an argument for changing the thread's name instead, because the deck philosophy (get value out of loam and your graveyard) has consistently persisted throughout this discussion.
In short: we could rename the thread to "value loam" or "zombie loam" or "squeeflagrate" (based on which the pivotal focus of the archetype really is), or something like that which reflects what we're all trying to do here and then discuss in peace how to abuse loam instead of arguing over semantics.
With regards to your question: pox has been bad since twin god banned, brutality is a good card in general. If you want, you can play both, but then you must play more engines to balance the card disadvantage, unless you cut infestation, which brings us back to the previous disagreement on what's the aim of this thread. If Brutality is strictly superior than Pox overall though, then in my book that makes running Pox a suboptimal decision. (I may have presented this argument too abstractly, so if you feel it's not to the point please tell me to try to rephrase it in a more coherent manner.)
P.S. If you're suggesting for B/W Smallpox with green instead of/in addition to white, BG Rock with loam and poxes, or 8rack with loam for a Crime engine, I'd argue that this indeed is not the correct thread, because -to my understanding at least- from the start this thread has been about how to abuse loam and not simply gaining a bit of incidental card advantage when and if we draw it.
^^^^ 100% agree. You guys are much better at communicating on the internet than I am . I am more than happy to give (and receive) constructive advice to other people's decks but rudeness and aggressiveness is not ok.
@Danr2000
I presume you want GY-centric removal specifically for storm?
For other matchups, I believe 2x Pharaoh+3x Souls+Dryad are adequate against most decks. (Pointing out the exact interaction, just to make sure we're on the same page: you can chump a large creature with souls + let a small one go through and you can still target the larger one with Pharaoh.)
Things to watch out for is going wide with Pyro, which Darkblast covers nicely, and DS+Battle Rage, which we need to keep hellbent with Despair or out of reach with Brownscale - but DS has become a lot less prevalent.
Additional thoughts for constructing the manabase: fastlands are also intriguing to preserve some life total without Brownscale, but I still need to find the best fetch/fast -land ratios to cover the last percentage points required for manabase consistency (I believe 6 fetches + supplementing the rest of effects with fastlands is possibl, but I haven't got to finishing my analysis and tests on this yet.)
I like the look of start // finish because it provides tokens for driven // despair and is also removal. The main reason why I would want graveyard-based removal is because if I urgently need to remove a creature that is going to kill me, dredging 5 from stinkweed imp gives me a better chance of finding removal than hoping to top-deck a lightning axe (only seeing 1 card vs 5).
I'm not sure about the manabase yet- I want to preserve my life total but the fetchlands really help with life from the loam.
My issue is that I come to a thread called loam pox with the intention of developing a deck with loam and pox.
Come to find out that pox isn't even in a current deck list of the thread.
So... Anyone, anyone at all is going to come to this thread looking for loam pox and they're going to see information and deck lists about a deck without pox.
So what exactly are you suggesting to rename this thread zombie loam and start up a whole new thread entitled loam pox? That's preposterous.
The moment a deck posted in loam pox does NOT have loam and pox in it, it doesn't belong in this thread.
That moment when you cut smallpox is when the FOCUS of your deck went away from what this thread is TITLED, is the moment you should have started a new thread to maintain the integrity of a thread NAMED loam pox. Because the people that want to talk about loam pox want to go to a thread titled loam pox, with valuable information about loam pox, before it mutated into zombie loam, and talk about loam pox. New cards are going to come out that might help loam pox, but I should go to some other thread since this particular thread titled loam pox isn't about loam pox at all.
Get over the fact that you took a ***** on a thread that was meant for loam pox, intentional or not... Years ago.
What would be right and what would be fair to all who haven't even come to this thread is for mods to cut this thread where it mutated into zombie loam and make 2 separate threads. One called loam pox and the other zombie loam. That way people that want to talk about loam pox have that information about loam pox and it's decline and you still have your valuable zombie loam info in a thread where it belongs: zombie loam.
All I ask is that and again, in a thread TITLED Loam Pox, u talk about loam pox.
The thread is titled "Raphael Levy's Loam Pox". That is what this thread is about whether you want it to be or not.
The development of a deck with smallpox AND loam.
Any deck that isn't using loam and pox, does not belong in this thread. It's that simple.
I have been playing Loam based strats on and off since the inception of Modern (used to play Loam back in old Extended, Astral Slide or 4/5c Sunburst Loam says hi ^^ ). Pox sucks Balls nowadays.
That the thread went from a Loam focused deck which tried to utilise Pox towards a Loam focused deck which utilises Zombie Infestation (and other tools) due to the fact, that Pox sucks nowadays is just deck development. Nearly close to all decks have made those developments, especially when cards either got banned, unbanned or freshly printed. Did the respective decks names changed when changes got introduced? Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
So, why does Pox suck nowadays? The majority of the metagame can just "ignore" it (it has no big influence, Titanshift, Lantern, Storm, Griselbrannd, GW Value Town, Company decks in general and many more), a lot of other decks it is a nuisance (Tron, Humans if they do not have a Vial start, Death Shadow,...) and there are only a few decks, where it is really good (and even there it is sometimes debatable).
Of course, getting the wet dream of going turn 1 discard into turn 2 Pox killing a land and a creature into turn 4 a 3 CMC Planeswalker is good, but if you want to do such lines, than BW Pox is just better, cause they have the better Planeswalkers (3/4 CMC Gideon vs the 5 CMC Green Walkers) while also having way better Sideboard tools which makes them better in the post board games (BG sideboard cards kinda suck balls). Furthermore, they can play Lingering Souls, which is just bonkers with Souls.
So yeah, there is currently just no reason, to play a BG Loam Pox deck, maybe a BWg version could pan out to incorporate the goddess of white while still having access to Loam, but I dread the manabase already (wanting BB on turn 2 and wanting WW on turn 3 *puke*) AND I kinda think, it would make the deck overall worse. Loam is never really good when you are "just" returning lands, you always want something to do with it. The only exception for this was Canadian Tresh in Legacy, where you played it in the SB for the Mirror, where you just needed that exact effect, getting lands back (Strip Mining the opponent who has only 7 mana sources in the deck with repeatable Wastelands thanks to Loam is pretty good).
Greetings,
Kathal
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either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
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And that's exactly why Tron is steamrolling you
Oh and IoK being better than thoughtseize, except against tron lol.
Maybe if you didn't spread so far out into 3 or 4 colors, you could run Fulminator Mage
Ranting on Raven's Crime is funny, it should be slow it's a freaking win-con. You're not supposed to be retracing that card on turn 2, act accordingly.
Tell me how these 3 cards effect your matchup against aggro, combo, and control. Smallpox, loam, crime. You're not supposed to be dredging loam every turn...
You're supposed to be discarding a land with pox not something that likes to be in the graveyard... So that loam can bring it back. Hence the fetch, sac a land, discard a land. Now you have 3 lands in graveyard. Maybe a loam in hand. And your t1 play should have been a discard. Or maybe you play brutality on turn 2 as opposed to pox.
Brutality is good. Ghost quarter is good. Not once did I say not to run both brutality and pox, with the plan being to discard LANDS.
Are you seeing it yet? A strong matchup against aggro, burn, tron, control, and combo and even greedy manabases... With a whole lot less of graveyard exiled just screwed me.
Ambushing a thread because it was using dredge and turning it into zombie dredge.... When it shouldn't have been using dredge in the first place except for soft-locking your opponent's hand with crime. Took a tangent from the original deck. Even Levy himself was partnering with someone who went into a black/white pox/rack kind of deck... And that deck happens to be tier 1. It just doesn't use loam.
Start thinking hard about what loam actually is because if you're trying to build an aggro deck with it you're doing it wrong.
Take the time to listen to a viable deck with strong consistent and proactive early game disruption, with loam exclusively used to negate the discarding lands aspect, rather than the dredge aspect which is really just icing. Maybe you should get back to pox and loam or create a new thread.
The word 'tier' does not mean what you think it means.
That was one of the issues with smallpox, what happens if I only have 1 or zero in hand. Brutality is a superior card but that doesn't make smallpox less valuable than it already was.
You don't need extra discard engines when you have pox, brutality, Liliana. Since the main discard targets are lands(loam), you don't need cards that advance your win-con to discard. This allows you to add sideboard cards that you can discard if you don't need them. Rather than stuff like blood ghast or lingering souls. Good cards no doubt, but not as strong as torpor orb, damping sphere, ensnaring bridge, damnation, etc.
It will take me a long time to come up with a decent deck list, it's a process of research of what people have done with it, and gatherer and we all know it takes a few hours just to go through a lone color. I don't have that time right now but maybe I'll have something in a week.
Someone once mentioned some good advice on these forums. It's not about win-cons. It's about getting there. And in a Grindy pox kind of deck my thought is control the board, top deck them, and let planesWalker finish it. I mean u could just 8rack them, but that's boring.
I have been playing this deck since 2015 and posting on this forum since early 2016, so I have seen the progression this thread (and Levy himself, who I have spoken to) has taken from a slow control deck to a more aggressive deck that stands a chance against combo.
This thread has not been "hijacked", it has simply evolved into a deck which in my opinion runs smoother. I would also like to point out that Raphael Levy was the one who changed this deck (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13059) so blaming us for the change is incorrect.
When I used to play the Loam Pox version about 3 years ago, I found it to be very slow and a lot of decks would beat me before I had a chance to set up. However, I can't wait to see and try this amazing list that your working on which proves all the "hijackers" and Raphael Levy wrong.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Collective Brutality
3 Life from the Loam
2 Damnation
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Planeswalker(3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands(24?)
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hissing Quagmire
1 Bojuka Bog
18 Lands
Here's your 30 card core. Why not just mainboard Damping Sphere or Torpor Orb
#1 Objective of Loam Pox is to topdeck opponent. Casting a TS/IoK on turn 1 followed by Pox, Brutality, or Decay on turn 2 is a great way to slow down your opponent. How in the world is combo supposed to beat this? That's 18-20 cards of this deck and should be pretty consistent.
Mid game focus is still on controlling hand/board with those 2 drops as well as Liliana until you can transitions into the late game...
Loam lets you replay lands like Bojuka Bog and Ghost Quarter, as well as pump raven's crime at will. This hoses pretty much every blue control deck out there. And you can recycle your man-lands too, as if that wasn't enough.
Discard decks can be susceptible to graveyard strategies and a lot of very good decks abuse the hell out of the graveyard either way. Bog: another land you can loam pox.
Pox alone against Tron is not a way to consistently beat Tron, but Loaming a GQ is.
Limit threats, and let Liliana and a man-land do the rest. That's the game-plan and look how many flex slots are available.
2x Bojuka Bog
1x Desert of the Glorified
1x Forest
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Hissing Quagmire
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Radiant Fountain
3x Swamp
1x Treetop Village
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Collective Brutality
2x Damnation
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Life from the Loam
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (4)
4x Bitterblossom
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
Instant (5)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
1x Dismember
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Golgari Charm
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Syphon Life
Here's a jumping off point. Seems fun, if a little slow. You really need a great opening hand for a deck like this to pay off I think. Maybe we should add ways to generate card advantage long term to add to our Loams. This could help us beat Blue Control decks and may only be necessary in the sideboard. Maybe Bob or Arena would help but that's starting to get really painful. Let me know what you guys think and where we might want to take this deck.
Maybe this is getting too deep but Traverse the Ulvenwald may be useful as well. We can tutor up silver bullet lands like Bojuka Bog and Radiant Fountain for certain match ups.
Bloodghast has always felt a little weak to me, especially in a slow grindy deck. But with 4 Collected Brutality and 4 Smallpox it's probably correct to run some number of them.
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bloodghast
1 Golgari Brownscale
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Stinkweed Imp
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
Spells (21)
3 Conflagrate
2 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
1 Lightning Axe
4 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
3 Driven // Despair
1 Start // Finish
4 Zombie Infestation
Lands (22)
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted delta
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
I am perfectly happy to debate people over the uses of cards like driven // despair, start // finish and lingering souls, but suggesting a BG Rock deck without tarmogoyf does not seem relevant to this forum at all.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
Loam is here to keep smallpox and brutality discards advantagous simply by recycling 3 lands. You probably won't dredge it but once or twice.
There's always the 8 rack clock.
The thing about ghast is it can't block and it doesn't exactly fit a Grindy deck that wants to let Liliana control a game.
I had that same opinion about the card draw. There's a lot of one for one in this deck sans pox/brutality so its important to have card advantage. But if you're looking for creatures, it goes against pox and takes up card slots. Arena or sign in blood could work though.
Here's some cards that work well for the BG team.
1 the rack
1 shrieking affliction
Honestly though these are all pretty niche decks, I don’t quite see why we can’t use the thread to discuss the different variations, considering that would just splinter the discussion in this bread to even smaller.
Long live being unrestricted in deckbuilding around zombie infestation, which unfortunately doesn't have copies 5-8 and has to come into play quick.
Polar opposite decks but BG team has a much more consistent and streamlined approach that loses to less hate... And even has a smaller core allowing for more versatility when it comes to adding hate cards of its own. UW control follows a similar game plan in a different way. BW pox also plays similarly, we're just using loam instead of flagstones. Recurring cards like field of ruins or bojuka bog has its advantages especially against tron or greedy manabase decks that live in the graveyard.
It's better than pox, why not run both for both versatility and consistency?
Grindy control decks don't need fast pressure. They just need pressure. You keep saying that BG needs fast pressure. The deck runs similar to UW control except it uses black discard instead of blue counterspells. Control the hand/board and finish with Liliana/nissa. Maybe even shrieking affliction. You gonna go into the UW control thread and tell them they need more pressure faster?
@Danr2000 just because the deck we are discussing has the same color combination as the rock doesn't mean it's the same deck. BG rock has nothing near the power level of Smallpox. Yes, decks in the same colors use similar cards. And no, tarmogoyf would be bad in this deck because of smallpox. The starting point of the deck is Loam and Pox and we are working from there. Bear with us for a bit and we may be able to come up with a competitive deck.
Since this is a Loam Pox thread I feel like Smallpox is a very important part of the deck and should probably be on your list of "core cards". I understand some people have developed the deck in a different direction and that's fine, but I think a Loam Pox deck belongs in this thread.
@ElvesotShelves I'm not sure BG 8 Rack is where we want to go with this deck. I've played a bit of 8 rack and I'm generally skeptical of people trying to throw in another color because it usually ends up diluting the primary game plan. What are you cutting from mono black 8 rack to accommodate the Loams? The deck is very streamlined and it's already very efficient. It already plays Smallpox and Raven's Crime without a need for restocking it's lands because most of the deck is 1cmc. And nissa seems a bit expensive though very powerful. I could see running 1. The -3 doesn't seem all the useful since we are mostly sorcery cards. But the +1 and -6 are good enough on their own to warrant at least a test.
I think Bloodghast belongs in the deck, at least in some number. Like maniospas said, you need something left over after you've one-for-oned a million times and Bloodghast works great alongside Smallpox and Collective Brutality.
I agree with your assessment of polluted delta as the only reason why I play it is because I can't afford verdant catacombs . I will definitely try the mountain instead.
As for start // finish, I haven't managed to try it yet but I'm pretty sure it would be better than deadly allure because you get to choose what dies. I have no idea if its better than the 2nd lightning axe but I am desperate for a removal I can play from the graveyard. Postboard against Scooze I will definately swap it for the axe in my sideboard to try to respond to the opponent boarding in graveyard hate.
2nd at GP Birmingham 2017:
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Ghost Quarte
3 Hissing Quagmire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Scavenger Grounds
3 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Eternal Witness
Noncreature Spells [21]
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Collective Brutality
1 Go for the Throat
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flaying Tendrils
1 Liliana's Defeat
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Damnation
source: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/midrange/789154-abzan-the-rock
If you want the most "consistent and streamlined" deck tested by pros just play this top tier deck. Do you guys now understand where I am coming from? You have posted a deck that looks the same as this, but you have taken goyf out and shoved in a loam package which just makes the deck worse.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Collective Brutality
3 Life from the Loam
2 Damnation
Instant(8)
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Dismember
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Shrieking Affliction
Lands(23)
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Hissing Quagmire
2 Bojuka Bog
15 Lands
4 Darkblast
4 Torpor Orb
4 Damping Sphere
3 Leyline of the Void
This is where I'm at. I know that pox decks struggle against Tron, which is where Loam/GQ comes in.
I like shrieking affliction more than rack(enchantment) It's not just making room for loam, but abrupt decay and Maelstrom pulse.
I have very little experience with pox decks but if green gives u access to decay, pulse, and a stronger matchup against Tron, there's reason to believe it has merit.
I'd like to just main board a set of affliction. And sideboard hate cards like torpor orb or damping sphere. So, is 4 copies, some man-lands and LotV enough?
Lol at this other guy. This list looks nothing like the one you posted. Try reading, before spewing nonsense.
Infraction issued for flaming. Deck evolution isn't nonsense. --CavalryWolfPack
I don't understand why you're so certain of the deck's strength that you act aggressively towards any other build if you have very little experience. The reason he keeps sating BG rock is because your goal - a BG control shell that attacks the hand and board - is much better implemented in rock, and since you're actively cutting Loam synergies you'd probably be best cutting them all and switching to rock.
And you still haven't answered my question: why run pox without brutality, or vice versa.
@Danr2000, @twakatsonic Not sure what your issue is with us discussing an alternative Loam Pox deck... (besides the general rudeness in the air...) I don't want to play BG Rock and I think Loam Pox offers a lot of value that BG Rock doesn't generate. I think in general the posters here are underestimating the value of Smallpox. Also, I counted, my posted list (which admittedly was just a spit ball of an idea) shares about 30 cards with this BG Rock deck... so it's very different even if it has a similar plan.
I don't understand the bickering guys. Everyone's allowed to build and test whatever they want. The way I see it, there's three parts of the title Raphael Levy, Loam, and Pox. Jund people are still following 2/3 of the title (Levy and Loam) and BG people are following another 2/3 (Loam and Pox). So both decks belong here. Neither are tier 1 so I don't think it's a big deal.
^^^^ 100% agree. You guys are much better at communicating on the internet than I am . I am more than happy to give (and receive) constructive advice to other people's decks but rudeness and aggressiveness is not ok.
I like the look of start // finish because it provides tokens for driven // despair and is also removal. The main reason why I would want graveyard-based removal is because if I urgently need to remove a creature that is going to kill me, dredging 5 from stinkweed imp gives me a better chance of finding removal than hoping to top-deck a lightning axe (only seeing 1 card vs 5).
I'm not sure about the manabase yet- I want to preserve my life total but the fetchlands really help with life from the loam.
Current Decklist- https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/732750#online
Sideboard Guide- https://www.scribd.com/document/384901650/Sideboard-Guide-to-Squeeflagrate
Forum- https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/582542-raphael-levys-loam-pox?page=37
Come to find out that pox isn't even in a current deck list of the thread.
So... Anyone, anyone at all is going to come to this thread looking for loam pox and they're going to see information and deck lists about a deck without pox.
So what exactly are you suggesting to rename this thread zombie loam and start up a whole new thread entitled loam pox? That's preposterous.
The moment a deck posted in loam pox does NOT have loam and pox in it, it doesn't belong in this thread.
That moment when you cut smallpox is when the FOCUS of your deck went away from what this thread is TITLED, is the moment you should have started a new thread to maintain the integrity of a thread NAMED loam pox. Because the people that want to talk about loam pox want to go to a thread titled loam pox, with valuable information about loam pox, before it mutated into zombie loam, and talk about loam pox. New cards are going to come out that might help loam pox, but I should go to some other thread since this particular thread titled loam pox isn't about loam pox at all.
Get over the fact that you took a ***** on a thread that was meant for loam pox, intentional or not... Years ago.
What would be right and what would be fair to all who haven't even come to this thread is for mods to cut this thread where it mutated into zombie loam and make 2 separate threads. One called loam pox and the other zombie loam. That way people that want to talk about loam pox have that information about loam pox and it's decline and you still have your valuable zombie loam info in a thread where it belongs: zombie loam.
All I ask is that and again, in a thread TITLED Loam Pox, u talk about loam pox.
The development of a deck with smallpox AND loam.
Any deck that isn't using loam and pox, does not belong in this thread. It's that simple.
I have been playing Loam based strats on and off since the inception of Modern (used to play Loam back in old Extended, Astral Slide or 4/5c Sunburst Loam says hi ^^ ). Pox sucks Balls nowadays.
That the thread went from a Loam focused deck which tried to utilise Pox towards a Loam focused deck which utilises Zombie Infestation (and other tools) due to the fact, that Pox sucks nowadays is just deck development. Nearly close to all decks have made those developments, especially when cards either got banned, unbanned or freshly printed. Did the respective decks names changed when changes got introduced? Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
So, why does Pox suck nowadays? The majority of the metagame can just "ignore" it (it has no big influence, Titanshift, Lantern, Storm, Griselbrannd, GW Value Town, Company decks in general and many more), a lot of other decks it is a nuisance (Tron, Humans if they do not have a Vial start, Death Shadow,...) and there are only a few decks, where it is really good (and even there it is sometimes debatable).
Of course, getting the wet dream of going turn 1 discard into turn 2 Pox killing a land and a creature into turn 4 a 3 CMC Planeswalker is good, but if you want to do such lines, than BW Pox is just better, cause they have the better Planeswalkers (3/4 CMC Gideon vs the 5 CMC Green Walkers) while also having way better Sideboard tools which makes them better in the post board games (BG sideboard cards kinda suck balls). Furthermore, they can play Lingering Souls, which is just bonkers with Souls.
So yeah, there is currently just no reason, to play a BG Loam Pox deck, maybe a BWg version could pan out to incorporate the goddess of white while still having access to Loam, but I dread the manabase already (wanting BB on turn 2 and wanting WW on turn 3 *puke*) AND I kinda think, it would make the deck overall worse. Loam is never really good when you are "just" returning lands, you always want something to do with it. The only exception for this was Canadian Tresh in Legacy, where you played it in the SB for the Mirror, where you just needed that exact effect, getting lands back (Strip Mining the opponent who has only 7 mana sources in the deck with repeatable Wastelands thanks to Loam is pretty good).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)