could we use Myr Welder in here? u could start milling and he could steal key card effects to use himself. Only card engine I don't think he could take is blasting station since that depends on a trigger ability that couldn't be copied.
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If you have Blasting Station out before you begin the self-mill, you should be fine.
With Blasting Station out, mill your library, putting at least one Narcomoeba into play and Emrakul's trigger on the stack
Respond to the trigger by activating Blasting Station, hitting your opponent for one and saccing your Narcomoeba
Resolve Emrakul, shuffling your Narcomoeba back into your library
Repeat
If your Emrakul gets milled before your Narcomoeba, you can continue milling in response to the graveyard shuffle trigger. Thus, no matter the order of the cards in your deck, each iteration of the loop changes the game state by dealing one damage to your opponent. You can (in theory) take a shortcut by saying "I execute this loop until you are dead."
The issue with the Legacy deck is the Dread Return/Sharuum/Blasting Station combo, since they all need to hit the yard before Emrakul. If Dread return were an instant or had flash (say thanks to Quicken or Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir), it would be playable.
That's a good point. It can also be done with a Skill Borrower that doesn't have summoning sickness (Lightning Greaves anyone?) You could sac with Blasting Station and then untap with a Pili-Pala still in your library. At any rate it's something to look into to excuse the slow play rules.
could we use Myr Welder in here? u could start milling and he could steal key card effects to use himself. Only card engine I don't think he could take is blasting station since that depends on a trigger ability that couldn't be copied.
Thanks for the suggestion. It could work but I feel like Skill Borrower is just better. The myr outclasses it by passing the bolt test, but doesn't have repeatable uses of stuff like the borrower does. I see the borrower as copies 5-8 of cards in the deck, which is another role that Phyrexian Metamorph could cover.
It's pretty clear that the Grand Architect deck is probably the route to go as it is less fragile and can play either beat down or combo out and win. Attacking from tons of different angles could be really good for the deck as it progresses forward.
the part i'm trying to understand is how do you get the blasting station? a lot of the deck is devoted to the untap engine and the mesmeric orb, several lists look like there only running 1?
you have a lot of pieces to pull out of the deck to get set up. does tezzeret the seeker or reshape have a place in this?
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the part i'm trying to understand is how do you get the blasting station? a lot of the deck is devoted to the untap engine and the mesmeric orb, several lists look like there only running 1?
you have a lot of pieces to pull out of the deck to get set up. does tezzeret the seeker or reshape have a place in this?
Well I haven't really go around to editing the OP yet, but with Grand Architect you get the 2 for only artifacts. This lets us play anything in our deck really, and by keeping it 2 or less cost for the most part we can dump out hand and go from there. We can't use this mana on reshape sadly, but I think it defiantly has a place in the deck if we can set up 2 pieces and consistently need a third on turn 4. Tezz is also cool, but again a high mana cost. I'd have to play with him for a bit to see how it would work out but the option is there!
I'm not sure what the right number of Blasting stations is, but right now a resolved one (or Skill Borrower) for that matter is lethal. I see the Borrower having so much flexibility that we can combo off with only 1-ofs in the deck if we can reliably get her into play for a turn. She literally becomes the entire deck once we have a flipping engine going.
On that note I think maybe UG could be good for grabbing the artifacts we want. We could have access to Ancient Stirrings and Chord of Calling. Could you imagine a EOT Pili-Pala into the combo? Or a borrower? That just seems insane to me. You could also be getting some nut draws with something like Thought Scour + Narcomoeba.
Is Sidisi, Brood Tyrant too slow for this to work? I mean, if you get him out with a mesmeric on the battlefield plus an untap engine, you can easily go infinite 2/2 zombies at the end of your opponent's turn, swarming him next turn. Plus Sidisi, Brood Tyrant could help you get a Fatestitcher as he ETBs or attacks, enabling the combo even if you only have one other untap creature and a blue mana available. Or you could focus entirely on playing him and keeping him alive as the sole creature in the deck, and then use Second Wind on him as the untap engine. Also, the zombies could be sacrificed to the Blasting Station right after every iteration where one enters the battlefield, untaping the Blasting Station, as an alternative to the "zombie stomp" win con.
This is a list I came up with based on my ideas above. Don't have the cards and did not play the deck, only simulated it against a gold fish, and it probably needs mana fixing, but it is a generally turn 5-6 combo... Probably still too slow for competitive play.
The more I keep thinking about this the more I think that there can be a way to be certain about the final outcome. Lets take a made up scenario:
you have: a Fatestitcher that has just been unearthed, a Kiora's Follower in play, a mesmeric orb in play, a blasting station in play, 5 lands one of which is tapped, 3 cards in hand, say 12 cards in you graveyard including one narcomoeba that was used to chump, leaving 36 cards in library.
your opponent: is on 15 and made the mistake of tapping out just to make your life easier.
Now I am right in saying that even if you mill emrakul, the aeons torn into your graveyard you can just keep milling one card at a time. So now you start comboing off, milling everything in your library and saccing the narcomoebas immediately after they come into play, now your opponent is on 13 (assuming 3 narcomoebas are in the deck) and emrakuls trigger now resolves.
Now you mill everything in your library again, saccing immediately then resetting just like last time, now your opponent is on 10. Repeat again to take him to 7, then 4, then 1. Now you mill everything in your library again but don't sac any narcomoebas, let emrakuls trigger resolve, then sac a narcomoeba, so now your opponent is dead. your board state will be as follows:
Kiora's follower tapped, fatestitcher untapped (or whichever one you used to untap the land in this case), 2 narcomoebas in play and one in your graveyard, 5 untapped lands, mesmeric orb in play, a tapped blasting station, the same 3 cards in hand and 45 cards in a random unknown order in your library.
I am having a hard time imagining how, in that scenario at least, determining the final game state without even having to mill once could not be determined. You do have to be careful though as an odd amount of mills will result in a switchover of which creature is untapped.
I have either just fixed this deck or I am missing something that I cant for the life of me think of (probably some rule thing that I have no experience with).
Edit: Just to expand on my scenario, if your opponent was is on 2 life as you are entering your final combo cycle you would simply need to insta-sac one narcomoeba as you are going off, then put the other 2 into play, resolve emrakuls trigger, then sac one for the killing blow, leaving you with only one narcomoeba in play.
I once used the combo in DredgeVine where I instantly won the game most of the time I got to assemble it. Plus both pieces are decent on their own in that deck. Orb mills and Stitcher is a Zombie that can help you return Gravecrawlers.
I think we can do better though. But it got me thinking on the Bridge from Below + Salvage Titan tech that someone posted once (once you mill both pieces, you can return the Titan from the GY and sac 3 artifact creatures to make a Zombie army). I like this approach since it highlights the artifact sub theme. If we go really deep here we could run Artificer's Intuition (already good with the Titan) and Myr Servitor. Heck even a singleton Claws of Gix as an alternate sac outlet.
I once used the combo in DredgeVine where I instantly won the game most of the time I got to assemble it. Plus both pieces are decent on their own in that deck. Orb mills and Stitcher is a Zombie that can help you return Gravecrawlers.
I think we can do better though. But it got me thinking on the Bridge from Below + Salvage Titan tech that someone posted once (once you mill both pieces, you can return the Titan from the GY and sac 3 artifact creatures to make a Zombie army). I like this approach since it highlights the artifact sub theme. If we go really deep here we could run Artificer's Intuition (already good with the Titan) and Myr Servitor. Heck even a singleton Claws of Gix as an alternate sac outlet.
What does all of this do for you though? You go through all this trouble for a 6/4 with no evasion and three 2/2's? It doesn't even seem recursive or anything since you need to get three artifacts into play to bring Titan back for a second go-around.
I once used the combo in DredgeVine where I instantly won the game most of the time I got to assemble it. Plus both pieces are decent on their own in that deck. Orb mills and Stitcher is a Zombie that can help you return Gravecrawlers.
I think we can do better though. But it got me thinking on the Bridge from Below + Salvage Titan tech that someone posted once (once you mill both pieces, you can return the Titan from the GY and sac 3 artifact creatures to make a Zombie army). I like this approach since it highlights the artifact sub theme. If we go really deep here we could run Artificer's Intuition (already good with the Titan) and Myr Servitor. Heck even a singleton Claws of Gix as an alternate sac outlet.
What does all of this do for you though? You go through all this trouble for a 6/4 with no evasion and three 2/2's? It doesn't even seem recursive or anything since you need to get three artifacts into play to bring Titan back for a second go-around.
Yeah I don't completely understand how this would combo off. It seems like it would more or less slow roll the opponent over like 40 turns... Is it not supposed to be a super explosive interaction?
I once used the combo in DredgeVine where I instantly won the game most of the time I got to assemble it. Plus both pieces are decent on their own in that deck. Orb mills and Stitcher is a Zombie that can help you return Gravecrawlers.
I think we can do better though. But it got me thinking on the Bridge from Below + Salvage Titan tech that someone posted once (once you mill both pieces, you can return the Titan from the GY and sac 3 artifact creatures to make a Zombie army). I like this approach since it highlights the artifact sub theme. If we go really deep here we could run Artificer's Intuition (already good with the Titan) and Myr Servitor. Heck even a singleton Claws of Gix as an alternate sac outlet.
What does all of this do for you though? You go through all this trouble for a 6/4 with no evasion and three 2/2's? It doesn't even seem recursive or anything since you need to get three artifacts into play to bring Titan back for a second go-around.
More like 12 Zombies (sometimes you don't need to go infinite to win the game). The reason I mentioned the DredgeVine deck is because I had a fascination with the combo once and tried to break it on MODO. I tried a dozen of lists but the DredgeVine version was the only one that I had some amount of success with in 2-mans. I think the reason for this is that the deck did other stuff too that happened to merge with the actual combo (if you assemble the combo: good, if you don't: you beat down the regular way). I think this might be the way to go, since the combo isn't the fastest or the most resilient in the world. When it comes to Bridge + Titan, it seems like a decent strategy all by itself. Titan basically acts like Dread Return that enables Bridge.
I once used the combo in DredgeVine where I instantly won the game most of the time I got to assemble it. Plus both pieces are decent on their own in that deck. Orb mills and Stitcher is a Zombie that can help you return Gravecrawlers.
I think we can do better though. But it got me thinking on the Bridge from Below + Salvage Titan tech that someone posted once (once you mill both pieces, you can return the Titan from the GY and sac 3 artifact creatures to make a Zombie army). I like this approach since it highlights the artifact sub theme. If we go really deep here we could run Artificer's Intuition (already good with the Titan) and Myr Servitor. Heck even a singleton Claws of Gix as an alternate sac outlet.
What does all of this do for you though? You go through all this trouble for a 6/4 with no evasion and three 2/2's? It doesn't even seem recursive or anything since you need to get three artifacts into play to bring Titan back for a second go-around.
More like 12 Zombies (sometimes you don't need to go infinite to win the game). The reason I mentioned the DredgeVine deck is because I had a fascination with the combo once and tried to break it on MODO. I tried a dozen of lists but the DredgeVine version was the only one that I had some amount of success with in 2-mans. I think the reason for this is that the deck did other stuff too that happened to merge with the actual combo (if you assemble the combo: good, if you don't: you beat down the regular way). I think this might be the way to go, since the combo isn't the fastest or the most resilient in the world. When it comes to Bridge + Titan, it seems like a decent strategy all by itself. Titan basically acts like Dread Return that enables Bridge.
Is the intention there to get four Bridge from Below into the graveyard? Modern dredge can't dredge fast enough for that to be reliable, otherwise, yeah, getting 12 free zombies would be a thing.
I once used the combo in DredgeVine where I instantly won the game most of the time I got to assemble it. Plus both pieces are decent on their own in that deck. Orb mills and Stitcher is a Zombie that can help you return Gravecrawlers.
I think we can do better though. But it got me thinking on the Bridge from Below + Salvage Titan tech that someone posted once (once you mill both pieces, you can return the Titan from the GY and sac 3 artifact creatures to make a Zombie army). I like this approach since it highlights the artifact sub theme. If we go really deep here we could run Artificer's Intuition (already good with the Titan) and Myr Servitor. Heck even a singleton Claws of Gix as an alternate sac outlet.
What does all of this do for you though? You go through all this trouble for a 6/4 with no evasion and three 2/2's? It doesn't even seem recursive or anything since you need to get three artifacts into play to bring Titan back for a second go-around.
More like 12 Zombies (sometimes you don't need to go infinite to win the game). The reason I mentioned the DredgeVine deck is because I had a fascination with the combo once and tried to break it on MODO. I tried a dozen of lists but the DredgeVine version was the only one that I had some amount of success with in 2-mans. I think the reason for this is that the deck did other stuff too that happened to merge with the actual combo (if you assemble the combo: good, if you don't: you beat down the regular way). I think this might be the way to go, since the combo isn't the fastest or the most resilient in the world. When it comes to Bridge + Titan, it seems like a decent strategy all by itself. Titan basically acts like Dread Return that enables Bridge.
Is the intention there to get four Bridge from Below into the graveyard? Modern dredge can't dredge fast enough for that to be reliable, otherwise, yeah, getting 12 free zombies would be a thing.
I'm not sure I understand. You wrote that after you assemble the combo ("go through all that trouble") you only get 3 zombies. This is when you've milled all of your deck (or most of it).
he means that you get your entire library into your grave then do it return 4 DredgeVines and the titan along with 12 zombies from the sacked artifact creatures. its a different approach and not really the same deck. but a way to use the engine to make something else.
The question is, wouldn't it be more efficient to use the grand architect + pili-pala combo to mill a couple flashback spells while generating infinite mana and then winning the game by pointing a 20 damage Devil's Play at your opponent?
I thought about this, but the problem is that the deck needs to have some way to reset itself. (ie: Emrakul or Gaea's Blessing.) You could always do a one time approach but then if you get hit by Rest in Peace you just loose... If you want to go full jank use Quicken since all of the flashback spells are at sorcery speed!
Perhaps all hope for this deck is dead, who knows...?
I like the spoiled Jace as he is going to flipping no matter what since the graveyard is full 99% of the time. He privides 2 with a Grand Architect and the loot can be used with Skill Borrower to draw something needed when flipping through the deck.
What I see in him is that if we get a board where he is flipped we can use the flashback ability to cast something like Bitter Ordeal (not the exact win-con, just a placeholder for now) since the deck can achieve infinite gravestorm. Perhaps Snapcaster Mage is just better by putting a draw ability on the stack and then flipping to one, but it could be tested a little.
I want to try and fit in only 1 Narcomoeba + Blasting Station but I am worried about it getting exiled by a Scavenging Ooze or something. I could also see a Unburial Rites and Sharuum the Hegemon in the deck but it probably isn't needed. The sideboard can transition into straight beat down with things like Batterskull. And the deck can avoid graveyard hate by using Crown of Convergence instead of Mesmeric Orb.
This is a more focused list, and maybe Bridge from Below can be packed in here somewhere. It would add a lot of reach to the deck, but it is only really relevant during the combo turn unless we go full chumpblock mode.
If you really want to play four horsemen you should check out my thread using Sage's Row Denizen over the orb. Check out my list over in this thread. Might find some ideas you could use.
If you really want to play four horsemen you should check out my thread using Sage's Row Denizen over the orb. Check out my list over in this thread. Might find some ideas you could use.
Yeah I've seen your thread and it is an interesting approach to it.
Some things about it though are that you can't guarantee getting Sage's Row Denizen into play like you can with the orb. With a Grand Architect in play the orb essentially costs 0 making it much easier to combo out on the spot. Also with Grand Architect + Pili-Pala + Mesmeric Orb you are flipping cards into your graveyard with a mana ability, meaning nothing in the game can respond to that making your combo faster than instant speed.
They are two different decks in their own right, with mine being something of a tribute to the original Four Horsemen deck (Fatesticher/Second Wind) where yours is trying to be Doomsday in the end. I think we can definitely get ideas from each others decks and maybe one day they're gonna cross paths.
If you really want to play four horsemen you should check out my thread using Sage's Row Denizen over the orb. Check out my list over in this thread. Might find some ideas you could use.
Yeah I've seen your thread and it is an interesting approach to it.
Some things about it though are that you can't guarantee getting Sage's Row Denizen into play like you can with the orb. With a Grand Architect in play the orb essentially costs 0 making it much easier to combo out on the spot. Also with Grand Architect + Pili-Pala + Mesmeric Orb you are flipping cards into your graveyard with a mana ability, meaning nothing in the game can respond to that making your combo faster than instant speed.
They are two different decks in their own right, with mine being something of a tribute to the original Four Horsemen deck (Fatesticher/Second Wind) where yours is trying to be Doomsday in the end. I think we can definitely get ideas from each others decks and maybe one day they're gonna cross paths.
While its true that you can not get Sage's Row Denizen into play as easily as Mesmeric Orb, Your combo does requite quite a few pieces to fire as compared to only the Denizen and Blasting Station. However, this is kinda inherently the case because you need to mill a lot more then just the same two cards over and over again. I do love the fact that its a mana ability, that is very nice feature indeed. I was trying to find a way to make the untap clause on Blasting Station be the source of the milling originally with the Orb but I couldnt find a way that wasnt gratuitously clunky.
But as you stated, they are definitely two different decks in their own right. Admittedly I did start with the Doomsday combo first and then asked myself what different ways can I win if I can stack my deck in modern and Four Horsemen seemed like a viable option as reducing your deck down to just the combo takes away the threat of slow play judge calls. I did pick up a foil Narcomeba and Blasting station yesterday, so I am determined to play four horsemen someday or another. Haha!
I think things like Ancient Stirrings or Faithless Looting are going to be necessary for the consistency of the deck. The multicolour landbase allows the deck to run like Affinity and play all the colours we want. Perhaps redundancy and digging for the combo is the way to go. Ditching some of the more clunky combo pieces (looking at you Unbender Tine) would create room for them, but then it feels like all the eggs are in one basket kind of thing.
My other idea is to add in Counterbalance because once we have the option of the flipping combo there is no need for all of the Unburial Rites + Skill Borrower shenanigans. It basically takes out the Rites from the deck and lets us naturally draw whatever we need. It may also add some disruption to the deck because it doesn't have the best ways to protect itself.
I could be wrong but doesn't Crown of Convergence + infinite mana let you put emrakul or blessing on the bottom whenever you want so you will be able to combo off with out relying on luck, making this deck legal?
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Commander: UBG Tasigur, the lab enabler UR Planeswalker Control UBRW Breya's personal box of combos BRW Vampire beats, by Dre 1 Karn, where all lands are command towers UBR Inalla's Venser lock UBRGW Atog Atog contraption tribal WUB Xur's second chance UGW Derivi, bird tribal R Brother's Yamazaki BRG Prosh, the scourge of multiplayer GW Capt. Sisay's Deck Dumping Service UB All Your Spells do Belong to Me UG Tapioca Pearl BG Meren's grinder
I could be wrong but doesn't Crown of Convergence + infinite mana let you put emrakul or blessing on the bottom whenever you want so you will be able to combo off with out relying on luck, making this deck legal?
Nope that's exactly how it works. The deck can already combo out by just flipping more cards with Emrakul's trigger on the stack to find a Narcombea if it has to. There are definitely ways to play it that aren't considered slow play.
I could be wrong but doesn't Crown of Convergence + infinite mana let you put emrakul or blessing on the bottom whenever you want so you will be able to combo off with out relying on luck, making this deck legal?
Nope that's exactly how it works. The deck can already combo out by just flipping more cards with Emrakul's trigger on the stack to find a Narcombea if it has to. There are definitely ways to play it that aren't considered slow play.
Awesome! Then if that works I will be sleaving this up to have some fun with at FNM, do to the ability to be cast from hand, are blessings considered better then the Aeon Torn?
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Commander: UBG Tasigur, the lab enabler UR Planeswalker Control UBRW Breya's personal box of combos BRW Vampire beats, by Dre 1 Karn, where all lands are command towers UBR Inalla's Venser lock UBRGW Atog Atog contraption tribal WUB Xur's second chance UGW Derivi, bird tribal R Brother's Yamazaki BRG Prosh, the scourge of multiplayer GW Capt. Sisay's Deck Dumping Service UB All Your Spells do Belong to Me UG Tapioca Pearl BG Meren's grinder
I could be wrong but doesn't Crown of Convergence + infinite mana let you put emrakul or blessing on the bottom whenever you want so you will be able to combo off with out relying on luck, making this deck legal?
Nope that's exactly how it works. The deck can already combo out by just flipping more cards with Emrakul's trigger on the stack to find a Narcombea if it has to. There are definitely ways to play it that aren't considered slow play.
Awesome! Then if that works I will be sleaving this up to have some fun with at FNM, do to the ability to be cast from hand, are blessings considered better then the Aeon Torn?
I wouldn't say so. The reason I have been playing Emmy is that with a Skill Borrower and Courier's Capsule you can sacrifice the Borrower to draw two cards, then with it on the stack, flip to Emmy, draw him, and cast him with your infinite mana! That is a viable and quick way to end the game for sure.
Randomly stumbled across this thread and I am a huge fan of the idea. I took a spin at building a deck. I've tried to shave off most of the creatures that die to bolt. the few games I have sat here and tested with myself, I find the biggest problem is milling the shuffle effect at a bad time. The most important thing seems to be sticking the turn 2 Mesmeric Orb to put pressure on them as a win-con. Anyways, here is my take:
After much thought, talking to a friend, and testing (goldfishing), I have ended at a different build. Here is my current version. Maybe it will give some people ideas.
This new builds seem good and I am probably just too tired and need to wake up more, but how do they get around the slow play problem the deck has? I know Crown of Convergence fixes this for some builds but how do these new ones get around it?
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Commander: UBG Tasigur, the lab enabler UR Planeswalker Control UBRW Breya's personal box of combos BRW Vampire beats, by Dre 1 Karn, where all lands are command towers UBR Inalla's Venser lock UBRGW Atog Atog contraption tribal WUB Xur's second chance UGW Derivi, bird tribal R Brother's Yamazaki BRG Prosh, the scourge of multiplayer GW Capt. Sisay's Deck Dumping Service UB All Your Spells do Belong to Me UG Tapioca Pearl BG Meren's grinder
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Thanks for the suggestion. It could work but I feel like Skill Borrower is just better. The myr outclasses it by passing the bolt test, but doesn't have repeatable uses of stuff like the borrower does. I see the borrower as copies 5-8 of cards in the deck, which is another role that Phyrexian Metamorph could cover.
It's pretty clear that the Grand Architect deck is probably the route to go as it is less fragile and can play either beat down or combo out and win. Attacking from tons of different angles could be really good for the deck as it progresses forward.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
you have a lot of pieces to pull out of the deck to get set up. does tezzeret the seeker or reshape have a place in this?
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I'm not sure what the right number of Blasting stations is, but right now a resolved one (or Skill Borrower) for that matter is lethal. I see the Borrower having so much flexibility that we can combo off with only 1-ofs in the deck if we can reliably get her into play for a turn. She literally becomes the entire deck once we have a flipping engine going.
On that note I think maybe UG could be good for grabbing the artifacts we want. We could have access to Ancient Stirrings and Chord of Calling. Could you imagine a EOT Pili-Pala into the combo? Or a borrower? That just seems insane to me. You could also be getting some nut draws with something like Thought Scour + Narcomoeba.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
This is a list I came up with based on my ideas above. Don't have the cards and did not play the deck, only simulated it against a gold fish, and it probably needs mana fixing, but it is a generally turn 5-6 combo... Probably still too slow for competitive play.
4x Breeding Pool
2x Drowned Catacomb
2x Forest
6x Island
2x Overgrown Tomb
2x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
2x Yavimaya Coast
4x Duress
1x Gaea's Blessing
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Sleight of Hand
Artifact (5)
1x Blasting Station
4x Mesmeric Orb
4x Grisly Salvage
2x Noxious Revival
4x Remand
Creature (11)
4x Fatestitcher
4x Kiora's Follower
3x Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
The more I keep thinking about this the more I think that there can be a way to be certain about the final outcome. Lets take a made up scenario:
you have: a Fatestitcher that has just been unearthed, a Kiora's Follower in play, a mesmeric orb in play, a blasting station in play, 5 lands one of which is tapped, 3 cards in hand, say 12 cards in you graveyard including one narcomoeba that was used to chump, leaving 36 cards in library.
your opponent: is on 15 and made the mistake of tapping out just to make your life easier.
Now I am right in saying that even if you mill emrakul, the aeons torn into your graveyard you can just keep milling one card at a time. So now you start comboing off, milling everything in your library and saccing the narcomoebas immediately after they come into play, now your opponent is on 13 (assuming 3 narcomoebas are in the deck) and emrakuls trigger now resolves.
Now you mill everything in your library again, saccing immediately then resetting just like last time, now your opponent is on 10. Repeat again to take him to 7, then 4, then 1. Now you mill everything in your library again but don't sac any narcomoebas, let emrakuls trigger resolve, then sac a narcomoeba, so now your opponent is dead. your board state will be as follows:
Kiora's follower tapped, fatestitcher untapped (or whichever one you used to untap the land in this case), 2 narcomoebas in play and one in your graveyard, 5 untapped lands, mesmeric orb in play, a tapped blasting station, the same 3 cards in hand and 45 cards in a random unknown order in your library.
I am having a hard time imagining how, in that scenario at least, determining the final game state without even having to mill once could not be determined. You do have to be careful though as an odd amount of mills will result in a switchover of which creature is untapped.
I have either just fixed this deck or I am missing something that I cant for the life of me think of (probably some rule thing that I have no experience with).
Edit: Just to expand on my scenario, if your opponent was is on 2 life as you are entering your final combo cycle you would simply need to insta-sac one narcomoeba as you are going off, then put the other 2 into play, resolve emrakuls trigger, then sac one for the killing blow, leaving you with only one narcomoeba in play.
I think we can do better though. But it got me thinking on the Bridge from Below + Salvage Titan tech that someone posted once (once you mill both pieces, you can return the Titan from the GY and sac 3 artifact creatures to make a Zombie army). I like this approach since it highlights the artifact sub theme. If we go really deep here we could run Artificer's Intuition (already good with the Titan) and Myr Servitor. Heck even a singleton Claws of Gix as an alternate sac outlet.
What does all of this do for you though? You go through all this trouble for a 6/4 with no evasion and three 2/2's? It doesn't even seem recursive or anything since you need to get three artifacts into play to bring Titan back for a second go-around.
Honestly it's a hilarious deck and I'll see if I can tune it a bit in the next week or so and come back with a Modern playable list.
Yeah I don't completely understand how this would combo off. It seems like it would more or less slow roll the opponent over like 40 turns... Is it not supposed to be a super explosive interaction?
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
More like 12 Zombies (sometimes you don't need to go infinite to win the game). The reason I mentioned the DredgeVine deck is because I had a fascination with the combo once and tried to break it on MODO. I tried a dozen of lists but the DredgeVine version was the only one that I had some amount of success with in 2-mans. I think the reason for this is that the deck did other stuff too that happened to merge with the actual combo (if you assemble the combo: good, if you don't: you beat down the regular way). I think this might be the way to go, since the combo isn't the fastest or the most resilient in the world. When it comes to Bridge + Titan, it seems like a decent strategy all by itself. Titan basically acts like Dread Return that enables Bridge.
Is the intention there to get four Bridge from Below into the graveyard? Modern dredge can't dredge fast enough for that to be reliable, otherwise, yeah, getting 12 free zombies would be a thing.
I'm not sure I understand. You wrote that after you assemble the combo ("go through all that trouble") you only get 3 zombies. This is when you've milled all of your deck (or most of it).
Increasing Vengeance + Ideas Unbound + Golgari Grave-Troll would mill the entire deck lol
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I like the spoiled Jace as he is going to flipping no matter what since the graveyard is full 99% of the time. He privides 2 with a Grand Architect and the loot can be used with Skill Borrower to draw something needed when flipping through the deck.
What I see in him is that if we get a board where he is flipped we can use the flashback ability to cast something like Bitter Ordeal (not the exact win-con, just a placeholder for now) since the deck can achieve infinite gravestorm. Perhaps Snapcaster Mage is just better by putting a draw ability on the stack and then flipping to one, but it could be tested a little.
Lastly I was working on a list, as I see the Grand Architect version being the most dominant one. With Unbender Tine and Fatesticher being able to be a Basalt Monolith and then Grand Architect powering out everything else in the deck just by tapping creatures. Perhaps Chief Engineer has a place in the deck, or Etherium Sculptor. Card draw will be needed and Courier's Capsule provides this effect really well.
Other random cards to include can be:
I think a list could look something like:
4 Grand Architect
3 Pili-Pala
4 Fatestitcher
4 Unbender Tine
Combo Pieces
4 Mesmeric Orb
2 Narcomoeba
1 Blasting Station
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Skill Borrower
2 Spellskite
1 Golem Artisan
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Courier's Capsule
4 Flooded Strand
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Academy Ruins
8 Island
Some cool things you can do:
- This list can keep milling Narcomoeba until you have one and a Blasting Station on top with a Skill Borrower in play and then you can sacrifice it to deal 1 damage to the opponent.
- If they try to Lightning Bolt your Skill Borrower you flip to the Golem Artisan and give it +1/+1 until it is safe, and you can also give it flying + trample + haste and attack for the win.
- With a Skill Borrower plus the mill combo you can draw two cards with Skill Borrower + Courier's Capsule and then hard cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn with the mana from Grand Architect + Pili-Pala.
- With Fatestitcher + Unbender Tine + Skill Borrower you can still get mana by flipping to a Grand Architect then a Pili-Pala, this means you always have access to the infinite mana combo.
I want to try and fit in only 1 Narcomoeba + Blasting Station but I am worried about it getting exiled by a Scavenging Ooze or something. I could also see a Unburial Rites and Sharuum the Hegemon in the deck but it probably isn't needed. The sideboard can transition into straight beat down with things like Batterskull. And the deck can avoid graveyard hate by using Crown of Convergence instead of Mesmeric Orb.
This is a more focused list, and maybe Bridge from Below can be packed in here somewhere. It would add a lot of reach to the deck, but it is only really relevant during the combo turn unless we go full chumpblock mode.
Any more ideas?
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Some things about it though are that you can't guarantee getting Sage's Row Denizen into play like you can with the orb. With a Grand Architect in play the orb essentially costs 0 making it much easier to combo out on the spot. Also with Grand Architect + Pili-Pala + Mesmeric Orb you are flipping cards into your graveyard with a mana ability, meaning nothing in the game can respond to that making your combo faster than instant speed.
They are two different decks in their own right, with mine being something of a tribute to the original Four Horsemen deck (Fatesticher/Second Wind) where yours is trying to be Doomsday in the end. I think we can definitely get ideas from each others decks and maybe one day they're gonna cross paths.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
While its true that you can not get Sage's Row Denizen into play as easily as Mesmeric Orb, Your combo does requite quite a few pieces to fire as compared to only the Denizen and Blasting Station. However, this is kinda inherently the case because you need to mill a lot more then just the same two cards over and over again. I do love the fact that its a mana ability, that is very nice feature indeed. I was trying to find a way to make the untap clause on Blasting Station be the source of the milling originally with the Orb but I couldnt find a way that wasnt gratuitously clunky.
But as you stated, they are definitely two different decks in their own right. Admittedly I did start with the Doomsday combo first and then asked myself what different ways can I win if I can stack my deck in modern and Four Horsemen seemed like a viable option as reducing your deck down to just the combo takes away the threat of slow play judge calls. I did pick up a foil Narcomeba and Blasting station yesterday, so I am determined to play four horsemen someday or another. Haha!
4 Grand Architect
4 Pili-Pala
4 Fatestitcher
2 Unbender Tine
Combo Pieces
4 Mesmeric Orb
2 Narcomoeba
1 Blasting Station
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Skill Borrower
1 Lantern of Insight
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour/Ancient Stirrings/Faithless Looting
Utility
2 Spellskite
1 Batterskull/Golem Artisan
1 Unburial Rites
1 Courier's Capsule/Welding Jar
4 Mox Opal
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
1 Academy Ruins
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
I think things like Ancient Stirrings or Faithless Looting are going to be necessary for the consistency of the deck. The multicolour landbase allows the deck to run like Affinity and play all the colours we want. Perhaps redundancy and digging for the combo is the way to go. Ditching some of the more clunky combo pieces (looking at you Unbender Tine) would create room for them, but then it feels like all the eggs are in one basket kind of thing.
My other idea is to add in Counterbalance because once we have the option of the flipping combo there is no need for all of the Unburial Rites + Skill Borrower shenanigans. It basically takes out the Rites from the deck and lets us naturally draw whatever we need. It may also add some disruption to the deck because it doesn't have the best ways to protect itself.
Could Counterbalance work?
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
UBG Tasigur, the lab enabler UR Planeswalker Control
UBRW Breya's personal box of combos BRW Vampire beats, by Dre
1 Karn, where all lands are command towers UBR Inalla's Venser lock
UBRGW Atog Atog contraption tribal WUB Xur's second chance
UGW Derivi, bird tribal R Brother's Yamazaki
BRG Prosh, the scourge of multiplayer GW Capt. Sisay's Deck Dumping Service
UB All Your Spells do Belong to Me UG Tapioca Pearl
BG Meren's grinder
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Awesome! Then if that works I will be sleaving this up to have some fun with at FNM, do to the ability to be cast from hand, are blessings considered better then the Aeon Torn?
UBG Tasigur, the lab enabler UR Planeswalker Control
UBRW Breya's personal box of combos BRW Vampire beats, by Dre
1 Karn, where all lands are command towers UBR Inalla's Venser lock
UBRGW Atog Atog contraption tribal WUB Xur's second chance
UGW Derivi, bird tribal R Brother's Yamazaki
BRG Prosh, the scourge of multiplayer GW Capt. Sisay's Deck Dumping Service
UB All Your Spells do Belong to Me UG Tapioca Pearl
BG Meren's grinder
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
3 Fatestitcher
1 Narcomoeba
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants: 16
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Anticipate
3 Noxious Revival
3 Remand
4 Thought Scour
Sorcery: 2
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Life from the Loam
Artifacts: 10
3 Blasting Station
4 Mesmeric Orb
3 Unbender Tine
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
3 Spellskite
3 Nature's Claim
3 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Edit:
After much thought, talking to a friend, and testing (goldfishing), I have ended at a different build. Here is my current version. Maybe it will give some people ideas.
4 Fatestitcher
4 Kiora's Follower
2 Narcomoeba
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Spellskite
Instants: 14
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Anticipate
3 Noxious Revival
3 Remand
4 Thought Scour
Sorcery: 1
1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Blasting Station
4 Mesmeric Orb
Lands: 20
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Nature's Claim
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
WWUGeist of Saint TraftUWW
UUBBLazav, Dimir MastermindBBUU
BRMalfegorRB
RGThromok the InsatiableGR
GGWWTrostani, Selesnya's VoiceWWGG
WBTeysa, Orzhov ScionBW
BGGGlissa, the TraitorGGB
GGUUPrime Speaker ZeganaUUGG
URJhoira of the GhituRU
RRWWAurelia, the WarleaderWWRR
UBRJeleva, Nephalias ScourgeRBU
UBG Tasigur, the lab enabler UR Planeswalker Control
UBRW Breya's personal box of combos BRW Vampire beats, by Dre
1 Karn, where all lands are command towers UBR Inalla's Venser lock
UBRGW Atog Atog contraption tribal WUB Xur's second chance
UGW Derivi, bird tribal R Brother's Yamazaki
BRG Prosh, the scourge of multiplayer GW Capt. Sisay's Deck Dumping Service
UB All Your Spells do Belong to Me UG Tapioca Pearl
BG Meren's grinder