Thanks for your feedback. I will try 2 Collective Brutality in the main. You’re right, it’s never useless. I did cut a Nykthos and a Relentless dead.
Collective brutality will slow the game. I think 23 lands will be fine therefore. And it’s a solid turn 2 play. Something I was looking for in the mana curve
This deck really interests me. I been playing Rock for, well just about forever, and I haven't really liked any version except Obliterock. This seems to be a better home for Rex.
Here are a couple of noob questions:
Why no Cavern of Souls?
Is Aether Vial ever even contemplated?
Does no one consider Vampire Hexmage even for the side-board. He has some cute interactions with Humans.
Is Blasting Station not considered? It could be useful against Ensnaring Bridge match-ups but I suppose the deck has enough life-loss sources for that already. I would like a way to work around Path to Exile and Terminus.
What is the UW Contol match-up like?
Is Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet really just better than Rex here? It would be so sad to not play Rex.
* Cavern: I only play 13 zombies. And I really like to play a T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Gifted Aetherborn. Which is pretty hard with a Cavern in the opening hand.
* Aehter Vial: Hmmm, interesting. But we're a midrange deck with a wide mana curve (1 - 5). The Vial fits the (semi)aggro decks with a narrow curve.
* Vampire Hexmage: fantastic. Never thought about it. I like it! Great against Humans indeed. But also other Vial decks, Planeswalkers, Affinity etc. etc. Thanks for the input. Maybee I'll try it some day!
By the way, I don't know 'Rex'? But I like Kalitas a lot because of 2 reasons:
- lifegain: our thoughtseizes and phyrexian arenas don't hurt that much
- exile: great in the current meta with al the graveyard decks
p.s. don't have much experience playing with blasting station. Don't know if it fits this build. I think not..
* Cavern: I only play 13 zombies. And I really like to play a T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Gifted Aetherborn. Which is pretty hard with a Cavern in the opening hand.
* Aehter Vial: Hmmm, interesting. But we're a midrange deck with a wide mana curve (1 - 5). The Vial fits the (semi)aggro decks with a narrow curve.
* Vampire Hexmage: fantastic. Never thought about it. I like it! Great against Humans indeed. But also other Vial decks, Planeswalkers, Affinity etc. etc. Thanks for the input. Maybee I'll try it some day!
By the way, I don't know 'Rex'? But I like Kalitas a lot because of 2 reasons:
- lifegain: our thoughtseizes and phyrexian arenas don't hurt that much
- exile: great in the current meta with al the graveyard decks
p.s. don't have much experience playing with blasting station. Don't know if it fits this build. I think not..
Firstly, thanks for the reply; it's sad how these forums seem to be dying. I think it's due to Facebook which is poorly suited for these discussion, IMO.
Your comments are very sensible. It isn't really Tribal is it? But I have a burning desire to have a chance against UW Control and another Midrange deck isn't likely to work any better than Rock which is an absolute dog to some UW lists.
Blasting Station works pretty well with Gravecrawler, but that's probably more of a Zombie Tribal thing as well. Station is nuts with a Persist creature and Melira or Anafenza. I suppose Vizier of Remedies would work just as well. Even Melira would be odd here, but machine-gunning Murderous Redcap would be a hoot.
BG seems a good way to go, but I confess to having a fondness for Anathemancer, so I might just go that route. It might be fun to give old Tymmie a try out as well.
While I am a lifelong Burn player, I've been considering putting together a Mono Black Devotion build, and was wondering what the opinion is on including the new Ashiok as a tempo card. It's useful against Dredge, Reanimator, and any deck that likes to tutor. No one plays fetches in Modern anymore, right?
The new Undead Augur also looks like it might be useful, though that may depend more on the other creature selections.
Thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
May your games be chaotic and your decks be Rogue.
While I am a lifelong Burn player, I've been considering putting together a Mono Black Devotion build, and was wondering what the opinion is on including the new Ashiok as a tempo card. It's useful against Dredge, Reanimator, and any deck that likes to tutor. No one plays fetches in Modern anymore, right?
The new Undead Augur also looks like it might be useful, though that may depend more on the other creature selections.
Thoughts?
Ashiok is certainly worth considering. She may well belong at least in the side-board just for the match-ups you mentioned. She seems intended for UB Mill and that's probably not the strategy this deck wants to implement.
Undead Augur would like sacrifice effects and Gravecrawlers and perhaps Geralf's Messengers. It could certainly find a home somewhere. It's got the on-curve Devotion going for it, but it might be unsuitable for some Devotion builds due to paucity of Zombies. Zombie Tribal - which can certainly do a reasonable impersonation of Bx Devotion - looks like the place for the Augur.
That’s a pretty much devastating combination of cards! My concern is the manabase; double GG could be problematic in a black deck. Every land should be a swamp at least. Maybee some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could help there.
But it also opens options like Assassin's Trophy en maybee some nice sideboard material.
At least it’s should be very fun to play!
That’s a pretty much devastating combination of cards! My concern is the manabase; double GG could be problematic in a black deck. Every land should be a swamp at least. Maybee some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could help there.
But it also opens options like Assassin's Trophy en maybee some nice sideboard material.
At least it’s should be very fun to play!
For months on end I ran Obliterock with Rex at BBBB and Kitchen Finks main-deck at GG. And that was before Blooming Marsh
The Ghost Quarter could throw things off curve, but the Twilight Mires and the Urborgs kept the Forest in line. As long as one doesn't go off on Treetop Village/Field of Ruin tangents (not that a Bx Devotion player would do, but Rock players do big-time), it's no problem to get GG and still have nearly every card make B even without Urborg.
One wouldn't necessarily expect to drop Eldritch Evolution on curve, but honestly, I think it would be close to reliable. I know there are statistics for that sort of thing but I'm not going to look it up.
I'm affraid it sounds better, then it is. If you get those cards on the table (in addition to a Geralf's Messenger), they are the bomb indeed. But we only play 4 undying creatures.
That said. I like the way it could work with Gravecrawler too.
But I won't swap a 4cmc card for this. Since I'm already on Obliterator and Kalitas in that spot.
I'm so happy that this thread has come alive again after so long! Here's the version of deck I piloted last Monday (3-1). Would appreciate any feedback you all have.
I'm testing out the elderspell MD to help in the control matchups. ashiok, dream render played like a dream against RB Hollowed One. Average CMC comes in under 1.5, so Bob is the choice over sign in blood (and so far has been the correct choice).
I'm so happy that this thread has come alive again after so long! Here's the version of deck I piloted last Monday (3-1). Would appreciate any feedback you all have.
I'm testing out the elderspell MD to help in the control matchups. ashiok, dream render played like a dream against RB Hollowed One. Average CMC comes in under 1.5, so Bob is the choice over sign in blood (and so far has been the correct choice).
You probably need more lands.
Bob doesn't seem like an ideal choice for this deck.
The average CMC is higher than typical Bob decks. Jund and Abzan run a few four-drops - up to four, Rock usually two. None typically run any five-drops main-deck.
Twenty lands is probably not enough to reliably cast three-drops on curve. I know there are articles and statistics but I'm way to lazy to look any of them up. Burn decks run eighteen - nineteen lands and they don't main-deck anything that they plan to cast for over two. There are some three-drops, but they are things like Rift Bolt and Skewer the Critics which generally are cast for one.
Decks that want to cast four-drops on curve usually run twenty-three or twenty-four lands. Twenty-five isn't unusual for three-color decks or decks with multiple colorless or CiP-tapped lands.
Whoops, I forgot to add the 4x bloodstained mire, I run 24 mana not 20...
And re: bob and a higher than Jund average CMC, I run bob for a few reasons:
1. Phyrexian Arena is just too slow
2. I have an average CMC of 1.48, which while higher than Jund's 1.33(ish), it is lower than 2 from sign in blood.
2a. Maybe it's luck, but I rarely bob a Gary... I have once though, and that definitely hurt. Ended up getting more than 5 life back with Gary though!
3. That's why I have so many lifelink creatures. to help balance out the bob's and thoughtseize
Have you tried Arguel's Blood Fast (aka the 2-mana pseudo-Greed) for card advantage ?
It can come down turn 2 and draw you many card later in the game if you can manage your life-total.
Erebos, God of the Dead can serve a similar function and will often be a 5/7 indestructible creature as well.
I also like Ob Nixilis Reignited though it is admitedly pretty slow for Modern.
Collective brutality will slow the game. I think 23 lands will be fine therefore. And it’s a solid turn 2 play. Something I was looking for in the mana curve
RBWMardu Nahiri, GBElves, UW Emeria, RSkred Red,
GBelcher, BDevotion, GWRNaya landfall, UWBEsper Miracles
Here are a couple of noob questions:
Why no Cavern of Souls?
Is Aether Vial ever even contemplated?
Does no one consider Vampire Hexmage even for the side-board. He has some cute interactions with Humans.
Is Blasting Station not considered? It could be useful against Ensnaring Bridge match-ups but I suppose the deck has enough life-loss sources for that already. I would like a way to work around Path to Exile and Terminus.
What is the UW Contol match-up like?
Is Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet really just better than Rex here? It would be so sad to not play Rex.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Here are my thoughts:
* Cavern: I only play 13 zombies. And I really like to play a T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Gifted Aetherborn. Which is pretty hard with a Cavern in the opening hand.
* Aehter Vial: Hmmm, interesting. But we're a midrange deck with a wide mana curve (1 - 5). The Vial fits the (semi)aggro decks with a narrow curve.
* Vampire Hexmage: fantastic. Never thought about it. I like it! Great against Humans indeed. But also other Vial decks, Planeswalkers, Affinity etc. etc. Thanks for the input. Maybee I'll try it some day!
By the way, I don't know 'Rex'? But I like Kalitas a lot because of 2 reasons:
- lifegain: our thoughtseizes and phyrexian arenas don't hurt that much
- exile: great in the current meta with al the graveyard decks
p.s. don't have much experience playing with blasting station. Don't know if it fits this build. I think not..
RBWMardu Nahiri, GBElves, UW Emeria, RSkred Red,
GBelcher, BDevotion, GWRNaya landfall, UWBEsper Miracles
PhyREXian Obliterator, Rex is Latin for King.
Your comments are very sensible. It isn't really Tribal is it? But I have a burning desire to have a chance against UW Control and another Midrange deck isn't likely to work any better than Rock which is an absolute dog to some UW lists.
Blasting Station works pretty well with Gravecrawler, but that's probably more of a Zombie Tribal thing as well. Station is nuts with a Persist creature and Melira or Anafenza. I suppose Vizier of Remedies would work just as well. Even Melira would be odd here, but machine-gunning Murderous Redcap would be a hoot.
BG seems a good way to go, but I confess to having a fondness for Anathemancer, so I might just go that route. It might be fun to give old Tymmie a try out as well.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
The new Undead Augur also looks like it might be useful, though that may depend more on the other creature selections.
Thoughts?
Undead Augur would like sacrifice effects and Gravecrawlers and perhaps Geralf's Messengers. It could certainly find a home somewhere. It's got the on-curve Devotion going for it, but it might be unsuitable for some Devotion builds due to paucity of Zombies. Zombie Tribal - which can certainly do a reasonable impersonation of Bx Devotion - looks like the place for the Augur.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
That’s a pretty much devastating combination of cards! My concern is the manabase; double GG could be problematic in a black deck. Every land should be a swamp at least. Maybee some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth could help there.
But it also opens options like Assassin's Trophy en maybee some nice sideboard material.
At least it’s should be very fun to play!
RBWMardu Nahiri, GBElves, UW Emeria, RSkred Red,
GBelcher, BDevotion, GWRNaya landfall, UWBEsper Miracles
My mana-base back then looked like this:
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Hissing Quagmire
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
3 Twilight Mire
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Woodland Cemetery
One could use some number of Blooming Marsh today, and now there are the new Nurturing Peatlands and the Prismatic Vista to toy with.
One wouldn't necessarily expect to drop Eldritch Evolution on curve, but honestly, I think it would be close to reliable. I know there are statistics for that sort of thing but I'm not going to look it up.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I tried the following list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Woodland Cemetery
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
4 Swamp
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Shriekmaw
4 Geralf's Messenger
1 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Murderous Redcap
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Noxious Gearhulk
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Hero's Downfall
This list uses Geralf's Messenger and Murderous Redcap with Eldritch Evolution to generate value.
The Geralf's Messenger + Eldritch Evolution = Gray Merchant of Asphodel is the main win condition.
For most games Murderous Redcap into Noxious Gearhulk / Grave Titan / Massacre Wurm is the last nail in the coffin
Redcap us a nice idea!
Another good use of Eldritch Evolution is Bloodghast into Rex or Kalitas.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
That said. I like the way it could work with Gravecrawler too.
But I won't swap a 4cmc card for this. Since I'm already on Obliterator and Kalitas in that spot.
RBWMardu Nahiri, GBElves, UW Emeria, RSkred Red,
GBelcher, BDevotion, GWRNaya landfall, UWBEsper Miracles
Devoted Black Rock
4x dark confidant
2x Geralf's Messenger
4x Gifted Aetherborn
3x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Phyrexian Obliterator
Spells
4x cast down
2x fatal push
3x inquisition of kozilek
1x the elderspell
4x thoughtseize
4x liliana of the veil
1x liliana, the last hope
Lands
16x swamp
1x field of ruin
1x ghost quarter
1x shizo, death's storehouse
1x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1x Fulminator Mage
1x kalitas, traitor of ghet
2x collective brutality
1x damnation
2x surgical extraction
1x the elderspell
2x damping sphere
2x pithing needle
2x ashiok, dream render
1x relic of progenitus
I'm testing out the elderspell MD to help in the control matchups. ashiok, dream render played like a dream against RB Hollowed One. Average CMC comes in under 1.5, so Bob is the choice over sign in blood (and so far has been the correct choice).
Bob doesn't seem like an ideal choice for this deck.
The average CMC is higher than typical Bob decks. Jund and Abzan run a few four-drops - up to four, Rock usually two. None typically run any five-drops main-deck.
Twenty lands is probably not enough to reliably cast three-drops on curve. I know there are articles and statistics but I'm way to lazy to look any of them up. Burn decks run eighteen - nineteen lands and they don't main-deck anything that they plan to cast for over two. There are some three-drops, but they are things like Rift Bolt and Skewer the Critics which generally are cast for one.
Decks that want to cast four-drops on curve usually run twenty-three or twenty-four lands. Twenty-five isn't unusual for three-color decks or decks with multiple colorless or CiP-tapped lands.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
And re: bob and a higher than Jund average CMC, I run bob for a few reasons:
1. Phyrexian Arena is just too slow
2. I have an average CMC of 1.48, which while higher than Jund's 1.33(ish), it is lower than 2 from sign in blood.
2a. Maybe it's luck, but I rarely bob a Gary... I have once though, and that definitely hurt. Ended up getting more than 5 life back with Gary though!
3. That's why I have so many lifelink creatures. to help balance out the bob's and thoughtseize
It can come down turn 2 and draw you many card later in the game if you can manage your life-total.
Erebos, God of the Dead can serve a similar function and will often be a 5/7 indestructible creature as well.
I also like Ob Nixilis Reignited though it is admitedly pretty slow for Modern.