Firstly, apologies on that last post of mine as my pomposity was a little harsh. I guess I was in a mood last night.
Back in February, I wrote this post in another forum. It deals directly with the question of Delve Creatures. Specifically, we have (3) at our disposal: Tasigur, the golden fang, gurmag angler and tombstalker. I didn't and still don't run any. After analysis and some testing, I would run Gurmag Angler, if any - actually, I'd really like to see him as a 5th fat beater beside my (4) Obliterators. Smashpacman is a big, big fan of running multiple delve creatures and spells. I just don't see that you've got enough fuel for that engine - but I could definitely be wrong. I did test, a little bit, your last posted build, but nothing conclusive. That said, you continue to win with the idea, so it's hard to argue against. Overview: you run a ton of 1 cmc spells and a ton of fetch lands with a very low landbase. So, it's a fast, highly disruptive build with no ensnaring bridge. Has anyone else tried out his thoroughbred in online play like cockatrice??
Well, here is a rambling, somewhat coherent assessment of Delve Creatures from February 18th as it relates to the early stages of Blightning Rack.
FORWARD: Let's compare Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler. Out of the gate, Tasigur is a rare and all the rage these days while Gurmag is common and rarely mentioned, so I'm skeptical, but let's look further...Originally, I was considering Tombstalker, did some math, and quickly realized he is out of the question. Gurmag's extra delver cost is indeed the cost of approximately a 1/2-turn to get him out. Mathing: I don't cantrip or fetch or cast anything that causes self discard except Liliana of the Veil. So, when can I first cast Tasigur or Gurmag? Easy:
Turn 1: Spell
Turn 2: Spell (maybe an additional spell, as I do run 16 1-cmc spells - but, I also run four scry lands which come into play tapped)
Turn 3: Spell, OR.....
= at this point, I have either 2 or 3 cards in the graveyard =
Can I cast Gurmag on turn 3? Nope. Mathematically, it can't happen unless my opponent makes me discard a card prior to this point.
Can I cast Tasigur on turn 3? Perhaps. If I cast 1 spell on turn (1) and 2 spells on turn (2) and I drop a third land which doesn't come into play tapped, then Yes. Yes. He can come out. What is the likelihood? I'm not going to hazard a guess.
Turn 4: Who Knows? It's hard to extrapolate at this point. But, it is clear that the in order to land Gurmag, it's a measure harder than tasigur. I need to be emptying my hand at full clip. I need to dropping lands on schedule. I believe that it's more statistically prevalent to drop a B5 than a B6 dredge in the type of construction that I made to enough of a degree that +1/+0 doesn't add up. I want that creature out early and I want that extra land open for one of my 16 1-cmc spells to get fired off. So, this gets into some serious math-crafting, but I'd estimate that Tasigur has an effective casting cost of 4.25 and Gurmag has an effective casting cost of 4.75. Math is not my specialty, but it's a rough estimation according to my specific deck construction. On a coin flip, I'd rather have a 4/5 before a 5/5 with these odds.
But, this opens the door to the following question: Is there a better creature for 4 mana? So, we're looking for a Fatty, in a very creature-light deck that is a reliable 4/5 or 5/5 for 4. Well, there is Yukora, the Prisoner. Ha!
Raystack, thank you for all the work in getting this thread started. I'm hoping to have the remaining pieces for then elk together in the next week or two. Look forward to hearing how the deck performs this weekend for you. I like the looks of u ur current build...I do thing Kolhagan's command deserves a slot for its flexibility in the deck if nothing else...I'm planning on two somewhere in the deck or SB.
@hotgoat: It's a synergistic idea that has some promise: smallpox blightning rack. I love the idea of hitting someone with a Blackmail, as you said, robbing them of their land, and then smallpoxing. Smashpacman astutely observed that smallpox is made for Delve creatures. The ensuing scenario becomes a nonbo: you have 1 Gurmag Angler. So, you can't cast another Smallpox.
It's just that I believe smallpox to be a 'trap card'. You'll have that scenario where it wrecked, but mostly....you slowed them a little, and you gained little forward progress. Smallpox Vs. Discard = Rock and a Hard Place. On the one hand you're choking their resources which makes their hand fill. On the other hand, you're trying to empty an increasingly filling hand with non-targeted discard (wrench mind / blightning / liliana of the veil / rix maadi, dungeon palace). The result is very muddled. My overarching concern with your deck is the total lack of creatures. Where is the win? You can't bring home the bacon with (4) racks. And, since you run no bridge, I fear for eventually being overrun. If there were 70 card deck minimums, then I think we'd have something. Just my humble. Every time I consider dropping my Phyrexian Obliterator count (again, I think it's being cast, about, as reliably as a nyxathid or gurmag angler with the few extra land I've dedicated to the build and doing sooooo much more). When I consider dropping my creature count below 4, I have to check myself: Am I going to win because I laid a 3rd swamp? Nope, I need some firepower.
I prefer to empty their hands and leave them with resources that feed nothing. The clean up squad, of what does eke itself out, is liliana of the veil, terminate, and ensnaring bridge. That's why I don't run Blood Moon or Fulminator Mage. Our guns can only point in so many directions.
Kolaghan's Command has shown more promise that I wanted to believe, but my testing has shown that it's still a 2nd seat behind Wrench Mind and Blightning. Those cards are the absolute house with a huge back porch that defines this deck.
The discard spell Blackmail pairs up well with Smallpox as it can force a discard of land. If your opponent is foolish enough to reveal lands to Blackmail on turn 1, a turn 2 Smallpox could just end the game there. Here is what i propose the deck should look like:
Have you considered Bloodghast or a similar hard to keep dead creature?
Heck even Young Pyromancer perhaps, especially with Kolaghan's Command to bring it back if it gets removed. i'd definately suggest replacing the Dragonskull summits with Lavaclaw Reaches without losing that much from the land base. No matter what you call it, I've always found Blitz-Rack works best when your two or three for oneing with almost every card you use, with the Rack/Afflictions being there for incidental almost 'bwhahahahahah I shall steal the win now' action.
Hey guys, do you think Breath of Malfegor is playable here? I often face grindy matches and leylines so I was just wondering it could work
Welcome to the fray.
I would highly, highly recommend more efficient cards to prevent grindy matches from being too grindy. Dealing 5 damage to someone for 5 mana is not efficiently-costed enough in the Modern format to be worth considering, unfortunately. Here are some ideas for cards that you could possibly consider over that:
Rakdos's Return - For 5 mana, forces your opponent to discard three cards, fueling The Rack engine. Curse of the Pierced Heart - For only 2 mana, your opponent will continuously take damage as the game progresses, regardless of their hand size. Stensia Bloodhall - It's a land, so if the games get grindy enough to consider Breath of Malfegor, this can repeatedly hit the opponent and still serve as a land. Hidetsugu's Second Rite - Talk about ways for pet cards to work, just get them to 10 and call it a day.
Those are off the top of my head. The best thing you can do is truly evaluate every option in Modern. I promise you'll find more consistency. Remember, if you play multiple Curses, your opponents can just lose in a few turns.
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A silly version I'm considering taking to a PPTQ this weekend. I'd love to have more Liliana's but unfortunately I only currently own the 1 (same for the mana base issues, hence why more fetches). While K-Command can be an instant speed blightning, in many ways its actually main boarded in this version of the deck to ensure my Pack Rats only really stay dead to Paths.
The Geth's Verdicts are mainboared mostly to deal with Hexproof and Geist game one (I have a fair few control and Boggles players in my meta) something that the lack of Liliana's often makes harder for myself. Nyxathid is there as a nice large beater to beat up gofy's after we make top deck mode, while I'm running afflictions of racks because of the incidental artifact hate most will be packing to deal with everything else. I've also found the Verdicts are useful when the Infect player thinks his vines of Vastwood is cute.
Little unsure about the manabase... while I'm tempted to try the Rix Maadi's out in this build (since Affliction needs a smaller handsize then rack) I don't have the checks and speed lands that would likely make them much more reliable.
Thanks! Yeah I know it's not efficient at all, but I need more options when facing a mid-game Leyline of Sanctity. I may also try spamming Bloodghast and use Thoughtpicker Witch for the top deck war. Haha that would be sweet with all the target and mass discard
@Sucal: 3-4 Liliana of the Veil is an absolute must for a blightning rack deck. There is just no way around that. (4) Pack rat in the main deck with no draw engine, a reasonably high curve, and no mutavault (as buddha84 pointed out) also seems like a misfire. (3) mountains feels like (2) mountains too many. The 3 dragon claw in the SB is an interesting add as I do feel like Burn is a coin flip game with a slight amount of favor going to them, so I've been scratching head on any number of options.
I'm trying a Gary this weekend (Gray Merchant of Asphodel) to battle Burn and Zoo. The way I look at it is Gary is a 2 Point Drain Life for 1 extra mana that happens to produce a 2/4. In all likelihood, he will generate more than 2 points of life in the swing, especially if a Phyrexian Obliterator is on board. Also, since I've got a Kolaghan's Command, I can bring him back for round 2 or retrieve him late game after an early discard to something like Liliana of the Veil. If you're running 23+ land, I think he is doable. Speaking of high land counts, that Stensia Bloodhall has me perked up in my chair. It reminds me of the days with Shivan Gorge. I don't think it can make it into my deck just yet, but for the right situation where I'm bridged up, it could be an absolute gem.
I know the comparison to 8rack is commonly made, but I think our playstyle lines up more closely with B/G Rock. I'd encourage folks to follow that track in deck design as it has demonstrated far more tournament success. The reason why I covet B/G Rock and impugn 8rack has to do with:
A.) Threat Immediacy and Multiple Angles of Attack: Just one unanswered creature can bring you home a win. And, discard is stronger when it carries more adaptive capabilities: Blightning and Kolaghan's Command. I just find Raven's Crime so underwhelming - and you're opponent probably does too.
B.) Adaptable Answers: Abrupt Decay/Terminate are high powered with very few drawbacks. Wrench Mind and Blightning are answering more threats than you even know...until you've knocked them into the scrap heap.
C.) Power Top Deck Draws when Hellbent: B/G Rock will just keep coming with any number of threats when you're both empty handed, while 8rack will just draw more discard. What does discard hit, when it's cast against an opponent that didn't see fit to play the card he drew last turn? Probably a counterspell or land to keep you guessing with a poorly played thoughtseize. But, there are certainly times when an opponent is on the ropes and can't cast cards lest his head drops below water. 8rack is a synergistic masterpiece, if somewhat limited. But, when it falters, it falls hard. And, the overall quality of the cards that it runs are not strong, whereas B/G rock is a $1,000+ deck all day long - the cards being played are all awesome. Or, think of it this way: If an opponent blows an Oblivion Stone, how quickly can your deck get back up on its feet and start pursuing a win condition while answering theirs?
Let's consider just how closely we are to B/G Rock.
THEMvs. US
Tarmogoyf vs. Nyxathid/Gurmag Angler
'Man can't win on discard alone' and 'Fortune favors the bold' are two of my favorite phrases when I think about refining my Blightning Rack deck, Blitzkrieg. These 3 creatures are phat beats that bring it home.
Abrupt Decay vs. Terminate
Same Cost - similar targets, except our terminate can knock down taller trees. We can target manlands and any creature while they can also hit enchantments and artifacts.
Someone wrote it earlier. Our greatest strength is our X-For-1 spells, and that is where we edge out B/G Rock.
As for Sideboards: There is a lot of diversity, and different focuses on deck types. Do people have pet cards that they feel strongly about, and want to champion? I mentioned Gary earlier when it comes to besting Zoo and Burn. I also don't see a lot of folks using Spellskite in their SB (when they include them), and I'm surprised at his absence in people's builds. What other cards out there make great strides to shore up our weaknesses against certain deck types? Come to think of it, do we have weaknesses against certain deck types??
I will say this: Almost every time I face an outlier or homebrew deck, I bring down the hammer. As I said in the primer, this deck is very adaptable - provided we don't lose sight of the aggressive/midrange nature of our focus. When we go too far into the Rack element of Lightning Rack Attack, we provide opportunities to the opponent to develop a game win. Remember to 'earn' the slots inhabited by Rack/Shrieking Affliction. If I play a rack, and haven't done a 2-for-1 effect yet, then I am falling behind.
@Sucal: 3-4 Liliana of the Veil is an absolute must for a blightning rack deck. There is just no way around that. (4) Pack rat in the main deck with no draw engine, a reasonably high curve, and no mutavault (as buddha84 pointed out) also seems like a misfire. (3) mountains feels like (2) mountains too many. The 3 dragon claw in the SB is an interesting add as I do feel like Burn is a coin flip game with a slight amount of favor going to them, so I've been scratching head on any number of options.
A lot of this is based off things I've learned in the past as both an 8 rack player and trying my first few attempts at Blightning Decks. If I had three more Liliana of the Veils I'd definitely play them (Replacing the two mainboard geths verdict and a pack rat) so pretend those are in the list if you wish. I'm posting the build I'll actually be able to play this weekend rather then the build I'll be playing in two months time (when I manage to track a few LoTV down).
Pack Rat is actually an ideal creature for this sort of deck. You bring it down when they have few cards in hand or when you want them to use up a removal spell so it doesn't hit your Nyxathid or Man lands. It converts useless land cards and discard spells in the late game into more beats, and its a clock that speeds up faster and faster. People who haven't played against it before tend to ignore the cute little bugger, while those that have tend to be focused on killing or removing it immediately. Normally I'd run something like Bloodghast in the slot, but I'd prefer a blocker that can be used to hold off Affinity and Infect long enough for me to draw a spell.
I'm running Lavaclaw Reaches over Mutavault because it makes red and black. More importantly though in game two - three if I bring in the bridges, it gives me more options to swing underneath the bridge while also being able to save kill spells. Lavaclaw can also kill quicker then mutavault in the late game by itself. The dragonclaws is something of a 'typical' thing I've thrown into decks in the past, since it keeps me alive longer when burn is on the rise. Since we have red cards ourselves though it provides a bit more constant 'drip' of life gain then when against burn alone.
As for the two extra mountains? I'll be replacing them with better lands when I remember where I last saw them, and I've got three nice foils I like to throw into decks.
Raystack makes a lot of good points, Sucal. Liliana of the Veil, I will tell you this now, is probably the best card in the deck. There are occasional matchups, such as BW Tokens, where some number of copies get sideboarded out, but against about 75-80% of the field, she is an absolute monster and pins players down. I am a little bit more forgiving in terms of budget decks, but unfortunately, Liliana of the Veil needs to be in these lists. She's just too strong. There are no BG Rock or Abzan decks playing without Abrupt Decay, and no Blue/X non-storm decks playing without Snapcaster Mage. Sometimes, it's just unavoidable.
Everybody has pet cards, as well. There was also a mention of playing Mutavault with your Pack Rats. I don't recommend the number of creatures you are running, but if you choose to go the Pack Rat strategy, Mutavault is better than Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace about 95% of the time. It's nice to lock opponents down, but the whole deal with Pack Rat is that it can just take a game over as a Plan B (or Plan A, if you feel it's the deck's best plan), and Mutavault gives you an alternative way to accomplish this faster. In fact, I would probably recommend finding a way to jam three Mutavaults into your list, possibly over a Lavaclaw Reaches, if necessary. This would likely force you to play some number of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but there's definitely some wiggle room here to make it work with the landbase.
As Raystack mentioned, there are a lot of different ways to approach the sideboard. Personally, I lean towards Blood Moon, but you cannot do that with the number of non-basics you are playing (with or without my recommendations). Cards like Duress can replace Thoughtseize against Burn, Surgical Extraction can destroy Splinter Twin combo decks and BW Tokens, and there's almost infinite other possibilities there. Dragon's Claw is a good plan for Burn as well, although your deck certainly casts a ton of Black spells instead, so maybe you'd be better off with the black version of that card, Demon's Horn?
I'm going to go on a rant/comparison sometime soon about the different ways to approach these strategies. There are several of you who have had some good ideas, and for the purposes of making this thread flow properly, I want to try to point everyone in the right direction. Regardless, many of your ideas have been inspiring, so keep them coming!
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Oh its not budget reasons why I don't have Liliana's (well technically it is).
I just got bored and built RG monsters for standard with the money that was meant to purchase them, and the copies at my FLGS are gone. So I've gotta wait a month until they either get more or I can find other copies. I know the Poxy Lady is worth every cent (even if shes likely the next ban candidate to keep Junk/Jund down) I just gotta take the time to actually get her.
@hotgoat: It's a synergistic idea that has some promise: smallpox blightning rack. I love the idea of hitting someone with a Blackmail, as you said, robbing them of their land, and then smallpoxing. Smashpacman astutely observed that smallpox is made for Delve creatures. The ensuing scenario becomes a nonbo: you have 1 Gurmag Angler. So, you can't cast another Smallpox.
It's just that I believe smallpox to be a 'trap card'. You'll have that scenario where it wrecked, but mostly....you slowed them a little, and you gained little forward progress. Smallpox Vs. Discard = Rock and a Hard Place. On the one hand you're choking their resources which makes their hand fill. On the other hand, you're trying to empty an increasingly filling hand with non-targeted discard (wrench mind / blightning / liliana of the veil / rix maadi, dungeon palace). The result is very muddled. My overarching concern with your deck is the total lack of creatures. Where is the win? You can't bring home the bacon with (4) racks. And, since you run no bridge, I fear for eventually being overrun. If there were 70 card deck minimums, then I think we'd have something. Just my humble. Every time I consider dropping my Phyrexian Obliterator count (again, I think it's being cast, about, as reliably as a nyxathid or gurmag angler with the few extra land I've dedicated to the build and doing sooooo much more). When I consider dropping my creature count below 4, I have to check myself: Am I going to win because I laid a 3rd swamp? Nope, I need some firepower.
I prefer to empty their hands and leave them with resources that feed nothing. The clean up squad, of what does eke itself out, is liliana of the veil, terminate, and ensnaring bridge. That's why I don't run Blood Moon or Fulminator Mage. Our guns can only point in so many directions.
This all depends on how you play Smallpox. You could go for the controlling play on turn 2 if you have nabbed a land with Blackmail. This will give you at least two turns to rebuild from Smallpox before they can do anything. Or you can wait a turn and play Smallpox after a creature is played, thereby maximising the return from playing it.
Also you ask "where is the win". The Rack is not the only card that does damage. Smallpox chips in for 1 damage, then you have the Commands if you choose to do 2 damage, Blightning and Lightening Bolt each can do 3. There is enough built in damage to easily do 20 damage. You have all the resources that you need, it just comes to player skill to use them effectively.
Relying on topdecking full playsets of bolt and command is hardly a good wincon. Especially when you don't have a bridge or some blockers to hold them back.
The idea of the deck is to control your opponent from the beginning gaining you turns. That is why there is a high level amount of discard cards. When these run out, your creature kill take over. Bridge is not needed as there is a high level of these as well. Bridge can be in the sideboard for when you encounter token decks. It is at this point where The Rack does its work.
What else is going on out there? Tonight is our 'saturday night fever'. It's FNM, baby! Anyone else going out to battle, and looking to share a last minute tip or ask a question about Blightning Rack tech?
Has there been any forward progress on the Ace1 build? Has anyone tested that or the darkhelmet/airmanmaki approach on cockatrice? With that more red approach of theirs, bolting and standing fast behind an ensnaring bridge, would there be room for a sneak-under cat like Prophetic Flamespeaker?
I was struggling a bit against Burn last night. It seems to be our toughest match-up. Would folks agree? Maybe G/r tron (for some reason I seem to do well against Mono-Blue, Oiled-Up Tron). My Bile Blight didn't hit as a double kill at all, so I turned one of them back into a Drown in Sorrow. It can smote a Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, and Swiftspear with extreme prejudice. Actually, I guess you could say it doesn't discriminate. It drowns all equally - if you're a little guy, you're going down.
I also added 1 Slaughter Pact to the sideboard. I don't struggle with Infect or Twin, but they are premier decks. They'll certainly be at the State Championships this weekend, hosted by SCG, so I'm not taking chances. I also did trim down a Nyxathid from the sideboard. So, my total creature count in the 75 is 5 Phyrexian Obliterator, 1 Nyxathid, and 1 Grim Lavamancer - Gray Merchant of Asphodel too, plus I'm strongly considering a Gurmag Angler to join the sideboard. Isn't it crazy how long a lavamancer can live in this meta?? Think about it: what cards in these top tier decks are going to take it out -
- infect
- affinity
- burn (searing blaze only)
- tron
- Zoo (they'd rather bolt face)
- Abzan (pretty much just liliana, as they'll hold their answer cards for more pronounced threats)
Hmmm....if a 1/1 can really make it in this new world, can I reconsider Nezumi Shortfang?! Can I ma, Can I? He followed me home. Ha, but I am going to run Outpost Siege in my SB. Our greatest weapon against Jund/Abzan is card advantage. Everything has to be 2-for-1. They have power cards, but they don't have draw. Examples of their power include: Lingering Souls / Kitchen Finks / Dark Confidant. But, if you can trip them up with our 'power discard suite' and press for a win......man, that's just game over. Testing with Gary - gray merchant of asphodel has been reasonably positive: Drain Life and Courser Kruphix bodice is ok by me. I fired off a 5-point earlier today, and nearly had a 9 point. Did a 7 point last night.
It's a fusion between my old seismic assault deck and the rack. Tell me what you think, i don't know when i'll be able to assemble the deck and test it...
The deck you listed doesn't have any creatures in it. Relying solely on discard to keep them in check is not a dependendable way to win since they can topdeck something. It doesn't help that you're only running 4 of your intended wincon.
You do not need creatures to win the game. The deck is all about establishing control and keeping it. As soon as the game goes into top deck mode, Liliana controls the game. The Rack then does it thing, dealing damage or being a virtual timewalk. If you opponent is not playing anything, that is where the double discard cards are most effective.
Anyway got the Liliana's (may or may not have messaged every store in the city to see if any had three available) killing my budget for the month (and with MM2 around the corner as well!).
Tried a version of Raystacks second list last night (slightly worse manabase and a fourth bridge instead of the Pyromaster). Not sure if I'm a fan of running both bridges and Obliterators at the same time, though admittedly I trolled a boggles player by playing the bridge after he pathed the Obliterator (then killed him with afflictions). I'm honestly not sure about the sideboard though, feels a little 'unfocused' but that is admittedly because I have having two and threes of.
I definitely think it needs the dragon claws against burn and I can't help but consider running the Nyxathids main and the bridges in the sideboard, at least until you need to bring them in against certain decks. It just feels like a deck that should be running more creatures, even if I'm not sure what. I'm almost tempted to try running Hypnotic Specter if it didn't compete for space with LotV, Blightning and Bridge. Might try two copies of Tasigur again, or see if I can borrow a friends Bitterblossom
I won against RW soul sisters, budget RDW, and UR delver. Both of my losses were 1-2 against abzan value decks. Topdecking 3 siege rhinos is really good. a couple of things about my list:
My sideboard was really bad. The green splash is because I was terrified of leyline of sanctity, but i ended up not seeing it all night. I boarded in the golgari charms so often that I'm thinking of making them mainboard. The anger felt useless, golgari charm was a good enough boardwipe 80% of the time, and when it wasn't, it was against rhinos, resto angels, and goyfs, so anger was useless too. I'm going to do a lot of work on my sideboard before next week.
Rise//fall was terrible. I but it in because I was worried I needed more 2 for 1s because of my lack of LotV. It was never a two for one, most of the time it was just rat fuel, or boarded out. I know there hasn't been much discussion about it on this thread, and now I understand why. I've been trying to find that card a home for a while now. This deck isn't it. I think I would prefer more removal instead.
I was really disappointed in Young Pyromancer. This deck tries to get everyone into topdeck mode as soon as possible, so either he is in opening hand, or I topdeck him. In the first case, I have to play my discard spells as fast as possible, so he ends up being one of the last cards in my hand, and I get almost no elemental tokens. In the second case, he is just really weak, he does nothing the turn he comes out and I cant block with him if I want value out of him. I'm not sure how best to replace him though.
All in all, I had a whole lot of fun playing this deck and would really appreciate any suggestions from this thread. I know I need LotV. But I had less than a week between seeing this forum and my FNM, so they hadn't come in yet. definitely putting two in instead of rise//fall.
This deck is currently focused on defeating the 'big 3' of the Meta. The Dragons claw is a typical sideboard card against burn, but I'm not sure how useful it will be in a world where they can run 6-8 Skullcrack style effects. The Night is there to 'try' and deal with Twin since its devastating once its resolved (if its resolved. I'd run two but I can't find my other one) eats Infect for Breakfast (very few creatures they run strong enough) and can slow down and annoy token decks. Ensnaring Bridge is there because I don't feel confident running it in the main, and because the card is exceptionally useful against Boogles, especially if they don't see it coming as well as a few other annoying decks.
The Pithing Needle is another 'default' sideboard card I like to run, since it can be equally useful against Tron, Twin (Name Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite), Affinity, etc etc. Spellskite is another good card for multiple match ups and I'm honestly considering whether or not I should replace the Dragons Claw with more of them when I get the chance.
The Phyrexian arena is because I love the card, I've got a few in my Monoblack devotion deck looking for use (since I've canablised it for parts of this deck) and because it may or may not be useful if I decide to experiment with Grey Merchant. Plus card advantage against Jund/Abzan is always useful and I couldn't think of anything better at the moment to use with the slots.
You do not need creatures to win the game. The deck is all about establishing control and keeping it. As soon as the game goes into top deck mode, Liliana controls the game. The Rack then does it thing, dealing damage or being a virtual timewalk. If you opponent is not playing anything, that is where the double discard cards are most effective.
Why do you even post here if you're just going to refute every piece of criticism you deck gets?
You don't need creatures to win, but in this deck, it makes you a hell of a lot more likely to win. Your deck is little different in terms of winning than the original 8rack, you just lack the protection of bridge, run half the number of your intended win-con,and rely on full playsets of removal spells to do damage if you can't get rack online.
If you have success with it kudos, but I highly doubt it.
You are not understanding the flow of the game. There are 19 sources of creature control in the deck (not counting the discards), why would you need Bridge if you are already controlling what they play. Looking at 8Rack, the most it ran was 8 (with 4 being Liliana). That is why it has Bridge. Coming against token decks is difficult, that is why we have a sideboard.
As I said previously, once you establish top deck mode, you have controlled the game. One Rack and Liliana is all the pressure you need.
If you still want creatures in the deck, please suggest some that you think can fit this strategy without weakening the deck.
@hotgoat: All due respect, I think we understand the flow of the game, as well as the point you're making. You've made it in three successive posts. Just agree to disagree and let it go. For the record, I agree with Bronxd, but I do not want to continue this back and forth as I gotta believe a Moderator would think it's bordering on a warning. Let's just put this one to rest and move on.
Sucal wrote:
Tried a version of Raystacks second list last night (slightly worse manabase and a fourth bridge instead of the Pyromaster). Not sure if I'm a fan of running both bridges and Obliterators at the same time, though admittedly I trolled a boggles player by playing the bridge after he pathed the Obliterator (then killed him with afflictions). I'm honestly not sure about the sideboard though, feels a little 'unfocused' but that is admittedly because I have having two and threes of.
I definitely think it needs the dragon claws against burn and I can't help but consider running the Nyxathids main and the bridges in the sideboard, at least until you need to bring them in against certain decks. It just feels like a deck that should be running more creatures, even if I'm not sure what. I'm almost tempted to try running Hypnotic Specter if it didn't compete for space with LotV, Blightning and Bridge. Might try two copies of Tasigur again, or see if I can borrow a friends Bitterblossom
Thanks for giving it a spin, Sucal. You mentioned that you didn't run my Pyromaster and went with a 4th bridge. I don't run Pyromaster, so I assume you were speaking to Grim Lavamancer. Running 4 bridges in the main can definitely create a conflict with Phyrexian Obliterator. I know it seems like a slight difference, but 3 is enough for game 1. The nonbo of playing a 5/5 and a bridge is a 'hedged bet'. It allows for me to play with less lightning bolt (they get sided out a fair amount) and dedicated creature kill - only 4 terminate in lieu of an absolute show stopper: Ensnaring Bridge.
As for whether or not they (bridge) get played or they serve as a blank in your hand....well, you generally know that by turn 3. Also, we run a ton of 3 drops (I have 12), so it doesn't have to be decided on turn 3 since you should have other options in hand. Again, if they don't line up with your round 1 opponent, that's not a big deal. It's only 3 cards. A lot of times I play a bridge that I'm ambivalent about, but don't have to fret. It's a baited play: I know they are going to abrupt decay or counter the thing which is cool by me: one less threat in the hand. It's a dance, but when you get the steps right, it's like sending a charging bull into a red cape.
Your overall assessment of my deck had me smiling. You're right! You were saying things like: I kind of want a little more creatures, but I don't know which ones. I kind of think that I want to take out the bridges, but you actually upped the count to 4 as your first decision. It's all a very careful balance of Lightning, Rack, Attack and Bridge. We find the weakness in our opponent, exploit it, and drive home the win. Again, Shock then Awesome.
As for your thoughts on the sideboard, it's always in flux. But, I think I am fairly settled on what I'll run in the State Championship tomorrow. I definitely wouldn't say that it's unfocused, just multi-focused. Multi-color decks played by the pros will often have a high number of different spells in the sideboard. It's more challenging, but also more effective: I recently sat down and made notes on what I'd do against a given opponent: specific swap outs. It's helpful, And really identifies where my counts are against Control or Aggro. Further, I start to examine how my mana ramp may get too wonky. General thoughts on the evolution of what I last posted up. Tasigur's Cruelty is out - it's enough discard already, prob add a Gurmag Angler. All Bile Blight is prob out - with a Kolaghan's Command most likely inhabiting the SB.
Regarding our red match up, you mentioned dragon claw. I think I like sun droplet more. The only time dragon claw works like aces is in a burn mirror match. We don't really run enough red, but I could be wrong. With the droplet, you are earning back a life each turn. That said, they are both terrible top decks mid game. That's why I'm sticking with Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
Overall, I'm really happy with where Blitzkrieg is right now. I played it last night, and went 3-1 in my FNM. I won against a noob (nice chap), tarmo-twin, burn (well built/played), and lost to Jund. So, that puts my paper tourney record at 14-2. Tomorrow is States and next week? The World!
@nemothy: Welcome, Brothaman! I liked your write-up, and can see that you understand the chops of Magic. Get them Lilianas in your stable! C'mon, Postman, where are ya?! The list is obviously a work in progress, and your assessments of what didn't work is often more enlightening of what did work. Taking the chance to get bold and try stuff is the best way to open doors. So, Young Pyromancer was a clunker? I can see how that can be. If we ran things like gitaxian probe and a lower curve...he might be better.
Some quick thoughts on your choices (which I know are in flux): 2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace has proven to be 1 too many to me. Everything we play is color intensive (though your deck is unique). 3 terminate and 1 Murderous Cut seems off. Why would you max the terminate to 4? I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I just don't like the Cut. I want a turn 2 answer to Infect and a turn 3 answer to Twin. 4 Rats?? I can see that you're going for a bridge-less game 1, and that (along with your proposed Bitterblossom) can help, but...4. What I do like about those two cards is the 2 drop. We are very light in our 2 drop department.
@sucal: Sideboard options. 3 Phyrexian Arena seems like a lot. I'd drop all three and run an outpost siege. Pithing Needle has never impressed me, and I think you're just better off furthering your own wincons, as opposed to playing this and hoping that the targeted card appears. Be proactive. More Night of Souls' Betrayal! It's probably the single most powerful sideboard card in black.
Thanks for giving it a spin, Sucal. You mentioned that you didn't run my Pyromaster and went with a 4th bridge. I don't run Pyromaster, so I assume you were speaking to Grim Lavamancer. Running 4 bridges in the main can definitely create a conflict with Phyrexian Obliterator. I know it seems like a slight difference, but 3 is enough for game 1. The nonbo of playing a 5/5 and a bridge is a 'hedged bet'. It allows for me to play with less lightning bolt (they get sided out a fair amount) and dedicated creature kill - only 4 terminate in lieu of an absolute show stopper: Ensnaring Bridge.
I was refering more to the OP your second list that has the 3 copies of Ensnaring Bridge and a Copy of Chandra Pyromaster. Its likely an old list so meh and all that! (I upped the count of Bridges because I didn't have a Pyromaster).
Hi guys I have been reading this forum for awhile loved 8 rack and like this deck even more. I was using Raystacks deck minus the Chandra Pyromaster and Spellskite and I ran 2 Grim lavamancers instead. Out of the last 2 Sunday modern tournaments I went 4-0 for the win and 3-1 for second losing to burn with that version of the the deck. Today I tried out a new version that has been talked about in part and I went 4-0 today. I beat Burn 2-1 all of them close, Splinter Twin 2-0 never close, BW Tokens 2-0 again never close, and GR Tron 2-1 last match really close, won when he got land flooded. This is the new deck i am running so curious on any advise i could get.
Back in February, I wrote this post in another forum. It deals directly with the question of Delve Creatures. Specifically, we have (3) at our disposal: Tasigur, the golden fang, gurmag angler and tombstalker. I didn't and still don't run any. After analysis and some testing, I would run Gurmag Angler, if any - actually, I'd really like to see him as a 5th fat beater beside my (4) Obliterators. Smashpacman is a big, big fan of running multiple delve creatures and spells. I just don't see that you've got enough fuel for that engine - but I could definitely be wrong. I did test, a little bit, your last posted build, but nothing conclusive. That said, you continue to win with the idea, so it's hard to argue against. Overview: you run a ton of 1 cmc spells and a ton of fetch lands with a very low landbase. So, it's a fast, highly disruptive build with no ensnaring bridge. Has anyone else tried out his thoroughbred in online play like cockatrice??
Well, here is a rambling, somewhat coherent assessment of Delve Creatures from February 18th as it relates to the early stages of Blightning Rack.
FORWARD: Let's compare Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler. Out of the gate, Tasigur is a rare and all the rage these days while Gurmag is common and rarely mentioned, so I'm skeptical, but let's look further...Originally, I was considering Tombstalker, did some math, and quickly realized he is out of the question. Gurmag's extra delver cost is indeed the cost of approximately a 1/2-turn to get him out. Mathing: I don't cantrip or fetch or cast anything that causes self discard except Liliana of the Veil. So, when can I first cast Tasigur or Gurmag? Easy:
Turn 1: Spell
Turn 2: Spell (maybe an additional spell, as I do run 16 1-cmc spells - but, I also run four scry lands which come into play tapped)
Turn 3: Spell, OR.....
= at this point, I have either 2 or 3 cards in the graveyard =
Can I cast Gurmag on turn 3? Nope. Mathematically, it can't happen unless my opponent makes me discard a card prior to this point.
Can I cast Tasigur on turn 3? Perhaps. If I cast 1 spell on turn (1) and 2 spells on turn (2) and I drop a third land which doesn't come into play tapped, then Yes. Yes. He can come out. What is the likelihood? I'm not going to hazard a guess.
Turn 4: Who Knows? It's hard to extrapolate at this point. But, it is clear that the in order to land Gurmag, it's a measure harder than tasigur. I need to be emptying my hand at full clip. I need to dropping lands on schedule. I believe that it's more statistically prevalent to drop a B5 than a B6 dredge in the type of construction that I made to enough of a degree that +1/+0 doesn't add up. I want that creature out early and I want that extra land open for one of my 16 1-cmc spells to get fired off. So, this gets into some serious math-crafting, but I'd estimate that Tasigur has an effective casting cost of 4.25 and Gurmag has an effective casting cost of 4.75. Math is not my specialty, but it's a rough estimation according to my specific deck construction. On a coin flip, I'd rather have a 4/5 before a 5/5 with these odds.
But, this opens the door to the following question: Is there a better creature for 4 mana? So, we're looking for a Fatty, in a very creature-light deck that is a reliable 4/5 or 5/5 for 4. Well, there is Yukora, the Prisoner. Ha!
It's just that I believe smallpox to be a 'trap card'. You'll have that scenario where it wrecked, but mostly....you slowed them a little, and you gained little forward progress. Smallpox Vs. Discard = Rock and a Hard Place. On the one hand you're choking their resources which makes their hand fill. On the other hand, you're trying to empty an increasingly filling hand with non-targeted discard (wrench mind / blightning / liliana of the veil / rix maadi, dungeon palace). The result is very muddled. My overarching concern with your deck is the total lack of creatures. Where is the win? You can't bring home the bacon with (4) racks. And, since you run no bridge, I fear for eventually being overrun. If there were 70 card deck minimums, then I think we'd have something. Just my humble. Every time I consider dropping my Phyrexian Obliterator count (again, I think it's being cast, about, as reliably as a nyxathid or gurmag angler with the few extra land I've dedicated to the build and doing sooooo much more). When I consider dropping my creature count below 4, I have to check myself: Am I going to win because I laid a 3rd swamp? Nope, I need some firepower.
I prefer to empty their hands and leave them with resources that feed nothing. The clean up squad, of what does eke itself out, is liliana of the veil, terminate, and ensnaring bridge. That's why I don't run Blood Moon or Fulminator Mage. Our guns can only point in so many directions.
Kolaghan's Command has shown more promise that I wanted to believe, but my testing has shown that it's still a 2nd seat behind Wrench Mind and Blightning. Those cards are the absolute house with a huge back porch that defines this deck.
Have you considered Bloodghast or a similar hard to keep dead creature?
With Smallpox/Liliana of the Veil it gives you something to discard that won't stay dead for very long.
Heck even Young Pyromancer perhaps, especially with Kolaghan's Command to bring it back if it gets removed. i'd definately suggest replacing the Dragonskull summits with Lavaclaw Reaches without losing that much from the land base. No matter what you call it, I've always found Blitz-Rack works best when your two or three for oneing with almost every card you use, with the Rack/Afflictions being there for incidental almost 'bwhahahahahah I shall steal the win now' action.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Welcome to the fray.
I would highly, highly recommend more efficient cards to prevent grindy matches from being too grindy. Dealing 5 damage to someone for 5 mana is not efficiently-costed enough in the Modern format to be worth considering, unfortunately. Here are some ideas for cards that you could possibly consider over that:
Rakdos's Return - For 5 mana, forces your opponent to discard three cards, fueling The Rack engine.
Curse of the Pierced Heart - For only 2 mana, your opponent will continuously take damage as the game progresses, regardless of their hand size.
Stensia Bloodhall - It's a land, so if the games get grindy enough to consider Breath of Malfegor, this can repeatedly hit the opponent and still serve as a land.
Hidetsugu's Second Rite - Talk about ways for pet cards to work, just get them to 10 and call it a day.
Those are off the top of my head. The best thing you can do is truly evaluate every option in Modern. I promise you'll find more consistency. Remember, if you play multiple Curses, your opponents can just lose in a few turns.
Standard: Temur Energy RUG
Pauper: Fireball Black B
Commander: Kaervek the Merciless BR
"Always Bolt the Bird."
4 Pack Rat
3 Nyxathid
Instants
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Kolgan's Command
4 Terminate
2 Geth's Verdict
Planeswalker
1 Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery
4 Wrench Mind
4 Blightning
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Shrieking Affliction
Land
3 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
6 Swamp
3 Mountain
1 Nyxathid
1 Kolagan's Command
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spellskite
3 Dragon's Claws
A silly version I'm considering taking to a PPTQ this weekend. I'd love to have more Liliana's but unfortunately I only currently own the 1 (same for the mana base issues, hence why more fetches). While K-Command can be an instant speed blightning, in many ways its actually main boarded in this version of the deck to ensure my Pack Rats only really stay dead to Paths.
The Geth's Verdicts are mainboared mostly to deal with Hexproof and Geist game one (I have a fair few control and Boggles players in my meta) something that the lack of Liliana's often makes harder for myself. Nyxathid is there as a nice large beater to beat up gofy's after we make top deck mode, while I'm running afflictions of racks because of the incidental artifact hate most will be packing to deal with everything else. I've also found the Verdicts are useful when the Infect player thinks his vines of Vastwood is cute.
Little unsure about the manabase... while I'm tempted to try the Rix Maadi's out in this build (since Affliction needs a smaller handsize then rack) I don't have the checks and speed lands that would likely make them much more reliable.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
I'm trying a Gary this weekend (Gray Merchant of Asphodel) to battle Burn and Zoo. The way I look at it is Gary is a 2 Point Drain Life for 1 extra mana that happens to produce a 2/4. In all likelihood, he will generate more than 2 points of life in the swing, especially if a Phyrexian Obliterator is on board. Also, since I've got a Kolaghan's Command, I can bring him back for round 2 or retrieve him late game after an early discard to something like Liliana of the Veil. If you're running 23+ land, I think he is doable. Speaking of high land counts, that Stensia Bloodhall has me perked up in my chair. It reminds me of the days with Shivan Gorge. I don't think it can make it into my deck just yet, but for the right situation where I'm bridged up, it could be an absolute gem.
I know the comparison to 8rack is commonly made, but I think our playstyle lines up more closely with B/G Rock. I'd encourage folks to follow that track in deck design as it has demonstrated far more tournament success. The reason why I covet B/G Rock and impugn 8rack has to do with:
A.) Threat Immediacy and Multiple Angles of Attack: Just one unanswered creature can bring you home a win. And, discard is stronger when it carries more adaptive capabilities: Blightning and Kolaghan's Command. I just find Raven's Crime so underwhelming - and you're opponent probably does too.
B.) Adaptable Answers: Abrupt Decay/Terminate are high powered with very few drawbacks. Wrench Mind and Blightning are answering more threats than you even know...until you've knocked them into the scrap heap.
C.) Power Top Deck Draws when Hellbent: B/G Rock will just keep coming with any number of threats when you're both empty handed, while 8rack will just draw more discard. What does discard hit, when it's cast against an opponent that didn't see fit to play the card he drew last turn? Probably a counterspell or land to keep you guessing with a poorly played thoughtseize. But, there are certainly times when an opponent is on the ropes and can't cast cards lest his head drops below water. 8rack is a synergistic masterpiece, if somewhat limited. But, when it falters, it falls hard. And, the overall quality of the cards that it runs are not strong, whereas B/G rock is a $1,000+ deck all day long - the cards being played are all awesome. Or, think of it this way: If an opponent blows an Oblivion Stone, how quickly can your deck get back up on its feet and start pursuing a win condition while answering theirs?
Let's consider just how closely we are to B/G Rock.
THEM vs. US
Tarmogoyf vs. Nyxathid/Gurmag Angler
'Man can't win on discard alone' and 'Fortune favors the bold' are two of my favorite phrases when I think about refining my Blightning Rack deck, Blitzkrieg. These 3 creatures are phat beats that bring it home.
Liliana of the Veil vs. Same
Phyrexian Obliterator vs. Same
Thoughtseize vs. Same
Inquisition of Kozilek vs. Same
Abrupt Decay vs. Terminate
Same Cost - similar targets, except our terminate can knock down taller trees. We can target manlands and any creature while they can also hit enchantments and artifacts.
Maelstrom Pulse vs. Damnation/Drown in Sorrow/Consume the Meek
Sweepers - we don't have the luxury of hitting enchantments (how many are there, really?) or artifacts (how many are played in duplicate? except cranial plating)
Treetop Village vs. Lavaclaw Reaches
The Village is markedly better, but late game....we take that honor. Plus Lavaclaw is also a dual land.
Dark Confidant vs. Wrench Mind / Blightning / The Rack - Grim Lavamancer
These cards create 'card advantage' and/or inflict damage. As smashpacman wrote, Dark Confidant isn't very well positioned in this meta.
Someone wrote it earlier. Our greatest strength is our X-For-1 spells, and that is where we edge out B/G Rock.
As for Sideboards: There is a lot of diversity, and different focuses on deck types. Do people have pet cards that they feel strongly about, and want to champion? I mentioned Gary earlier when it comes to besting Zoo and Burn. I also don't see a lot of folks using Spellskite in their SB (when they include them), and I'm surprised at his absence in people's builds. What other cards out there make great strides to shore up our weaknesses against certain deck types? Come to think of it, do we have weaknesses against certain deck types??
I will say this: Almost every time I face an outlier or homebrew deck, I bring down the hammer. As I said in the primer, this deck is very adaptable - provided we don't lose sight of the aggressive/midrange nature of our focus. When we go too far into the Rack element of Lightning Rack Attack, we provide opportunities to the opponent to develop a game win. Remember to 'earn' the slots inhabited by Rack/Shrieking Affliction. If I play a rack, and haven't done a 2-for-1 effect yet, then I am falling behind.
A lot of this is based off things I've learned in the past as both an 8 rack player and trying my first few attempts at Blightning Decks. If I had three more Liliana of the Veils I'd definitely play them (Replacing the two mainboard geths verdict and a pack rat) so pretend those are in the list if you wish. I'm posting the build I'll actually be able to play this weekend rather then the build I'll be playing in two months time (when I manage to track a few LoTV down).
Pack Rat is actually an ideal creature for this sort of deck. You bring it down when they have few cards in hand or when you want them to use up a removal spell so it doesn't hit your Nyxathid or Man lands. It converts useless land cards and discard spells in the late game into more beats, and its a clock that speeds up faster and faster. People who haven't played against it before tend to ignore the cute little bugger, while those that have tend to be focused on killing or removing it immediately. Normally I'd run something like Bloodghast in the slot, but I'd prefer a blocker that can be used to hold off Affinity and Infect long enough for me to draw a spell.
I'm running Lavaclaw Reaches over Mutavault because it makes red and black. More importantly though in game two - three if I bring in the bridges, it gives me more options to swing underneath the bridge while also being able to save kill spells. Lavaclaw can also kill quicker then mutavault in the late game by itself. The dragonclaws is something of a 'typical' thing I've thrown into decks in the past, since it keeps me alive longer when burn is on the rise. Since we have red cards ourselves though it provides a bit more constant 'drip' of life gain then when against burn alone.
As for the two extra mountains? I'll be replacing them with better lands when I remember where I last saw them, and I've got three nice foils I like to throw into decks.
Everybody has pet cards, as well. There was also a mention of playing Mutavault with your Pack Rats. I don't recommend the number of creatures you are running, but if you choose to go the Pack Rat strategy, Mutavault is better than Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace about 95% of the time. It's nice to lock opponents down, but the whole deal with Pack Rat is that it can just take a game over as a Plan B (or Plan A, if you feel it's the deck's best plan), and Mutavault gives you an alternative way to accomplish this faster. In fact, I would probably recommend finding a way to jam three Mutavaults into your list, possibly over a Lavaclaw Reaches, if necessary. This would likely force you to play some number of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but there's definitely some wiggle room here to make it work with the landbase.
As Raystack mentioned, there are a lot of different ways to approach the sideboard. Personally, I lean towards Blood Moon, but you cannot do that with the number of non-basics you are playing (with or without my recommendations). Cards like Duress can replace Thoughtseize against Burn, Surgical Extraction can destroy Splinter Twin combo decks and BW Tokens, and there's almost infinite other possibilities there. Dragon's Claw is a good plan for Burn as well, although your deck certainly casts a ton of Black spells instead, so maybe you'd be better off with the black version of that card, Demon's Horn?
I'm going to go on a rant/comparison sometime soon about the different ways to approach these strategies. There are several of you who have had some good ideas, and for the purposes of making this thread flow properly, I want to try to point everyone in the right direction. Regardless, many of your ideas have been inspiring, so keep them coming!
Standard: Temur Energy RUG
Pauper: Fireball Black B
Commander: Kaervek the Merciless BR
"Always Bolt the Bird."
I just got bored and built RG monsters for standard with the money that was meant to purchase them, and the copies at my FLGS are gone. So I've gotta wait a month until they either get more or I can find other copies. I know the Poxy Lady is worth every cent (even if shes likely the next ban candidate to keep Junk/Jund down) I just gotta take the time to actually get her.
This all depends on how you play Smallpox. You could go for the controlling play on turn 2 if you have nabbed a land with Blackmail. This will give you at least two turns to rebuild from Smallpox before they can do anything. Or you can wait a turn and play Smallpox after a creature is played, thereby maximising the return from playing it.
Also you ask "where is the win". The Rack is not the only card that does damage. Smallpox chips in for 1 damage, then you have the Commands if you choose to do 2 damage, Blightning and Lightening Bolt each can do 3. There is enough built in damage to easily do 20 damage. You have all the resources that you need, it just comes to player skill to use them effectively.
The idea of the deck is to control your opponent from the beginning gaining you turns. That is why there is a high level amount of discard cards. When these run out, your creature kill take over. Bridge is not needed as there is a high level of these as well. Bridge can be in the sideboard for when you encounter token decks. It is at this point where The Rack does its work.
Has there been any forward progress on the Ace1 build? Has anyone tested that or the darkhelmet/airmanmaki approach on cockatrice? With that more red approach of theirs, bolting and standing fast behind an ensnaring bridge, would there be room for a sneak-under cat like Prophetic Flamespeaker?
I was struggling a bit against Burn last night. It seems to be our toughest match-up. Would folks agree? Maybe G/r tron (for some reason I seem to do well against Mono-Blue, Oiled-Up Tron). My Bile Blight didn't hit as a double kill at all, so I turned one of them back into a Drown in Sorrow. It can smote a Grim Lavamancer, Goblin Guide, and Swiftspear with extreme prejudice. Actually, I guess you could say it doesn't discriminate. It drowns all equally - if you're a little guy, you're going down.
I also added 1 Slaughter Pact to the sideboard. I don't struggle with Infect or Twin, but they are premier decks. They'll certainly be at the State Championships this weekend, hosted by SCG, so I'm not taking chances. I also did trim down a Nyxathid from the sideboard. So, my total creature count in the 75 is 5 Phyrexian Obliterator, 1 Nyxathid, and 1 Grim Lavamancer - Gray Merchant of Asphodel too, plus I'm strongly considering a Gurmag Angler to join the sideboard. Isn't it crazy how long a lavamancer can live in this meta?? Think about it: what cards in these top tier decks are going to take it out -
- infect
- affinity
- burn (searing blaze only)
- tron
- Zoo (they'd rather bolt face)
- Abzan (pretty much just liliana, as they'll hold their answer cards for more pronounced threats)
Hmmm....if a 1/1 can really make it in this new world, can I reconsider Nezumi Shortfang?! Can I ma, Can I? He followed me home. Ha, but I am going to run Outpost Siege in my SB. Our greatest weapon against Jund/Abzan is card advantage. Everything has to be 2-for-1. They have power cards, but they don't have draw. Examples of their power include:
Lingering Souls / Kitchen Finks / Dark Confidant. But, if you can trip them up with our 'power discard suite' and press for a win......man, that's just game over. Testing with Gary - gray merchant of asphodel has been reasonably positive: Drain Life and Courser Kruphix bodice is ok by me. I fired off a 5-point earlier today, and nearly had a 9 point. Did a 7 point last night.
4 raven's crime
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 faithless looting
4 life from the loam
4 smallpox
4 blightning
instants : 4
4 terminate
4 young pyromancer
artifacts : 6
4 the rack
2 spellweaver helix
lands : 22
2 buried ruin
2 raging ravine
3 blackcleave cliffs
4 bloodstained mire
4 verdant catacombs
1 blood crypt
1 stomping ground
2 overgrown tomb
1 swamp
1 mountain
1 forest
It's a fusion between my old seismic assault deck and the rack. Tell me what you think, i don't know when i'll be able to assemble the deck and test it...
You do not need creatures to win the game. The deck is all about establishing control and keeping it. As soon as the game goes into top deck mode, Liliana controls the game. The Rack then does it thing, dealing damage or being a virtual timewalk. If you opponent is not playing anything, that is where the double discard cards are most effective.
Tried a version of Raystacks second list last night (slightly worse manabase and a fourth bridge instead of the Pyromaster). Not sure if I'm a fan of running both bridges and Obliterators at the same time, though admittedly I trolled a boggles player by playing the bridge after he pathed the Obliterator (then killed him with afflictions). I'm honestly not sure about the sideboard though, feels a little 'unfocused' but that is admittedly because I have having two and threes of.
I definitely think it needs the dragon claws against burn and I can't help but consider running the Nyxathids main and the bridges in the sideboard, at least until you need to bring them in against certain decks. It just feels like a deck that should be running more creatures, even if I'm not sure what. I'm almost tempted to try running Hypnotic Specter if it didn't compete for space with LotV, Blightning and Bridge. Might try two copies of Tasigur again, or see if I can borrow a friends Bitterblossom
4 wrench mind
2 rise // fall
2 kolaghan's command
3 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
Enchantments (4)
4 shrieking affliction
Instants (8)
3 terminate
4 lightning bolt
1 murderous cut
Creatures (9)
1 gurmag angler
4 pack rat
4 young pyromancer
4 bloodstained mire
3 wooded foothills
3 blood crypt
2 dragonskull summit
3 lavaclaw reaches
3 swamp
2 rix maadi, dungeon palace
1 stomping ground
1 overgrown tomb
2 tasigur, the golden fang
3 duress
3 anger of the gods
2 skullcrack
3 golgari charm
2 destructive revelry
I won against RW soul sisters, budget RDW, and UR delver. Both of my losses were 1-2 against abzan value decks. Topdecking 3 siege rhinos is really good. a couple of things about my list:
My sideboard was really bad. The green splash is because I was terrified of leyline of sanctity, but i ended up not seeing it all night. I boarded in the golgari charms so often that I'm thinking of making them mainboard. The anger felt useless, golgari charm was a good enough boardwipe 80% of the time, and when it wasn't, it was against rhinos, resto angels, and goyfs, so anger was useless too. I'm going to do a lot of work on my sideboard before next week.
Rise//fall was terrible. I but it in because I was worried I needed more 2 for 1s because of my lack of LotV. It was never a two for one, most of the time it was just rat fuel, or boarded out. I know there hasn't been much discussion about it on this thread, and now I understand why. I've been trying to find that card a home for a while now. This deck isn't it. I think I would prefer more removal instead.
I was really disappointed in Young Pyromancer. This deck tries to get everyone into topdeck mode as soon as possible, so either he is in opening hand, or I topdeck him. In the first case, I have to play my discard spells as fast as possible, so he ends up being one of the last cards in my hand, and I get almost no elemental tokens. In the second case, he is just really weak, he does nothing the turn he comes out and I cant block with him if I want value out of him. I'm not sure how best to replace him though.
All in all, I had a whole lot of fun playing this deck and would really appreciate any suggestions from this thread. I know I need LotV. But I had less than a week between seeing this forum and my FNM, so they hadn't come in yet. definitely putting two in instead of rise//fall.
Edit: Formatting for the split card.
My current thought is
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
3 Pithing Needles
2 Spellskite
3 Phyrexian Arena
This deck is currently focused on defeating the 'big 3' of the Meta. The Dragons claw is a typical sideboard card against burn, but I'm not sure how useful it will be in a world where they can run 6-8 Skullcrack style effects. The Night is there to 'try' and deal with Twin since its devastating once its resolved (if its resolved. I'd run two but I can't find my other one) eats Infect for Breakfast (very few creatures they run strong enough) and can slow down and annoy token decks. Ensnaring Bridge is there because I don't feel confident running it in the main, and because the card is exceptionally useful against Boogles, especially if they don't see it coming as well as a few other annoying decks.
The Pithing Needle is another 'default' sideboard card I like to run, since it can be equally useful against Tron, Twin (Name Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite), Affinity, etc etc. Spellskite is another good card for multiple match ups and I'm honestly considering whether or not I should replace the Dragons Claw with more of them when I get the chance.
The Phyrexian arena is because I love the card, I've got a few in my Monoblack devotion deck looking for use (since I've canablised it for parts of this deck) and because it may or may not be useful if I decide to experiment with Grey Merchant. Plus card advantage against Jund/Abzan is always useful and I couldn't think of anything better at the moment to use with the slots.
You are not understanding the flow of the game. There are 19 sources of creature control in the deck (not counting the discards), why would you need Bridge if you are already controlling what they play. Looking at 8Rack, the most it ran was 8 (with 4 being Liliana). That is why it has Bridge. Coming against token decks is difficult, that is why we have a sideboard.
As I said previously, once you establish top deck mode, you have controlled the game. One Rack and Liliana is all the pressure you need.
If you still want creatures in the deck, please suggest some that you think can fit this strategy without weakening the deck.
Sucal wrote:
Tried a version of Raystacks second list last night (slightly worse manabase and a fourth bridge instead of the Pyromaster). Not sure if I'm a fan of running both bridges and Obliterators at the same time, though admittedly I trolled a boggles player by playing the bridge after he pathed the Obliterator (then killed him with afflictions). I'm honestly not sure about the sideboard though, feels a little 'unfocused' but that is admittedly because I have having two and threes of.
I definitely think it needs the dragon claws against burn and I can't help but consider running the Nyxathids main and the bridges in the sideboard, at least until you need to bring them in against certain decks. It just feels like a deck that should be running more creatures, even if I'm not sure what. I'm almost tempted to try running Hypnotic Specter if it didn't compete for space with LotV, Blightning and Bridge. Might try two copies of Tasigur again, or see if I can borrow a friends Bitterblossom
Thanks for giving it a spin, Sucal. You mentioned that you didn't run my Pyromaster and went with a 4th bridge. I don't run Pyromaster, so I assume you were speaking to Grim Lavamancer. Running 4 bridges in the main can definitely create a conflict with Phyrexian Obliterator. I know it seems like a slight difference, but 3 is enough for game 1. The nonbo of playing a 5/5 and a bridge is a 'hedged bet'. It allows for me to play with less lightning bolt (they get sided out a fair amount) and dedicated creature kill - only 4 terminate in lieu of an absolute show stopper: Ensnaring Bridge.
As for whether or not they (bridge) get played or they serve as a blank in your hand....well, you generally know that by turn 3. Also, we run a ton of 3 drops (I have 12), so it doesn't have to be decided on turn 3 since you should have other options in hand. Again, if they don't line up with your round 1 opponent, that's not a big deal. It's only 3 cards. A lot of times I play a bridge that I'm ambivalent about, but don't have to fret. It's a baited play: I know they are going to abrupt decay or counter the thing which is cool by me: one less threat in the hand. It's a dance, but when you get the steps right, it's like sending a charging bull into a red cape.
Your overall assessment of my deck had me smiling. You're right! You were saying things like: I kind of want a little more creatures, but I don't know which ones. I kind of think that I want to take out the bridges, but you actually upped the count to 4 as your first decision. It's all a very careful balance of Lightning, Rack, Attack and Bridge. We find the weakness in our opponent, exploit it, and drive home the win. Again, Shock then Awesome.
As for your thoughts on the sideboard, it's always in flux. But, I think I am fairly settled on what I'll run in the State Championship tomorrow. I definitely wouldn't say that it's unfocused, just multi-focused. Multi-color decks played by the pros will often have a high number of different spells in the sideboard. It's more challenging, but also more effective: I recently sat down and made notes on what I'd do against a given opponent: specific swap outs. It's helpful, And really identifies where my counts are against Control or Aggro. Further, I start to examine how my mana ramp may get too wonky. General thoughts on the evolution of what I last posted up. Tasigur's Cruelty is out - it's enough discard already, prob add a Gurmag Angler. All Bile Blight is prob out - with a Kolaghan's Command most likely inhabiting the SB.
Regarding our red match up, you mentioned dragon claw. I think I like sun droplet more. The only time dragon claw works like aces is in a burn mirror match. We don't really run enough red, but I could be wrong. With the droplet, you are earning back a life each turn. That said, they are both terrible top decks mid game. That's why I'm sticking with Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
Overall, I'm really happy with where Blitzkrieg is right now. I played it last night, and went 3-1 in my FNM. I won against a noob (nice chap), tarmo-twin, burn (well built/played), and lost to Jund. So, that puts my paper tourney record at 14-2. Tomorrow is States and next week? The World!
@nemothy: Welcome, Brothaman! I liked your write-up, and can see that you understand the chops of Magic. Get them Lilianas in your stable! C'mon, Postman, where are ya?! The list is obviously a work in progress, and your assessments of what didn't work is often more enlightening of what did work. Taking the chance to get bold and try stuff is the best way to open doors. So, Young Pyromancer was a clunker? I can see how that can be. If we ran things like gitaxian probe and a lower curve...he might be better.
Some quick thoughts on your choices (which I know are in flux): 2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace has proven to be 1 too many to me. Everything we play is color intensive (though your deck is unique). 3 terminate and 1 Murderous Cut seems off. Why would you max the terminate to 4? I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I just don't like the Cut. I want a turn 2 answer to Infect and a turn 3 answer to Twin. 4 Rats?? I can see that you're going for a bridge-less game 1, and that (along with your proposed Bitterblossom) can help, but...4. What I do like about those two cards is the 2 drop. We are very light in our 2 drop department.
@sucal: Sideboard options. 3 Phyrexian Arena seems like a lot. I'd drop all three and run an outpost siege. Pithing Needle has never impressed me, and I think you're just better off furthering your own wincons, as opposed to playing this and hoping that the targeted card appears. Be proactive. More Night of Souls' Betrayal! It's probably the single most powerful sideboard card in black.
I was refering more to the OP your second list that has the 3 copies of Ensnaring Bridge and a Copy of Chandra Pyromaster. Its likely an old list so meh and all that! (I upped the count of Bridges because I didn't have a Pyromaster).
4 Swamps
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
3 Blood Crypt
1 Godless Shrine
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
Creatures
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells
4 Terminate
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Wrench Mind
4 Blightning
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Duress
1 Shattering Spree
1 Sowing Salt
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Consume the Meek
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Wear/Tear
1 Slaughter Game
2 Extirpate
It felt like the Lavaclaw Reaches didn't get a lot of use and would be better off as another land card.
Also first post on here so hopefully it's understandable. Thanks