At 3 mana it's a bit high for what this deck is trying to do. If you do find a slot for it, it would be a 2 of at most since you want to see this card when you need more gas. I've been playing around with a non-souls version with this format getting faster so maybe take out two souls and add those?
At 3 mana it's a bit high for what this deck is trying to do. If you do find a slot for it, it would be a 2 of at most since you want to see this card when you need more gas. I've been playing around with a non-souls version with this format getting faster so maybe take out two souls and add those?
Do you have a decklist anywhere I could see? I'm still in the process of getting all the cards together/deciding on my 75. At the moment I'm trying to make a list without goyfs as I can't afford them. Was thinking of just putting buglers or other beaters for the time being till I can get my playset.
Haven't really played around with the deck so not sure about cutting souls. At first glance they seem necessary for the midrange matchups though.
Someone at WoTC must really want this deck to be a thing. This makes Bant way more attractive for this deck. Not sure where that leaves Doran however. Is 4 colors too much?
4 colors isn't too much especially with blood moon being on the low recently. However, both the enchantments do nothing on their own which is the problem. Doran is a huge threat on his own that enables your deck and can be fetched via multiple ways. it's very hard to cut him. An Arcades build may be a better way to go with this card. However, I could see having 2 of these as effects 9-10. it being at 3 mana is kind of rough. Blue does off an insane amount of ridiculously high toughness creatures for cheap. I've been looking into blue for a while now especially with the advent of the D sphere deputy.
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Both are obviously very similar but both have a different hot take. The first is much more controlly and punishing but at the same time has a lot of dead duplicate cards. the second is more standard beatdown but has less interaction. I'm leaning towards the first build as it's like halfway between spirits and humans and can randomly just hose decks with bridge and unblockable fatties. I'm sure the numbers need tweaking and I haven't actually tried deputy out but he seems crazy good in this list. Especially since there are so many kill on sight creatures. That's also another weakness. 1 damnation and it's a blowout of the century. I plan to jam some games soon.
Looks similar to a list I am currently testing. The following list is after testing an initial 4 color build with sylvan caryatid and path to exile. I think this deck wants all in on its gameplan and with Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive, PtE is less important. Wall of Denial was just a house at stalling when you are missing your enablers. I am really liking the Aether Vial approach as it lets us hold up certain creatures as ambush or in the case of Spellskite protection for permanents. Commune with the Gods is a new addition to try and make the deck even more consistent. The graveyard text of Commune isn't ideal but I think digging for enablers far outweighs that downside. Could also try Ancient Stirrings as a way to smooth out the mana and find Vials and Bridge.
Edit: In regards to deputy of detention, I think the upside is it takes the removal heat away from Doran while providing removal in the absence of Path to Exile. That might be my next test.
Just found this thread, and it's nice to see other people still talking about Doran in Modern. Here is the latest revision of the deck I've been running for the last year and a half or so.
Bloodbraid Elf has been very strong, and I will never switch back. It's completely changed the competitiveness of the deck.
I ran 4x Birds of Paradise for a very long time, but recently decided that I wanted to speed the deck up a bit more and smooth out the consistency, so I added 2x Noble Hierarch and 2x Courser of Kruphix and the pressure has definitely improved. During this same time I dropped 2x Spellskite to the side, and dropped a basic Forest (this may get rebalanced because of the popularity of Path and Ass Trophy).
Mardu Ascendancy allows the deck to go wide and tall at the same time, as well as filling the slot that Tower Defense used to, while being a better Cascade target.
Rhythm of the Wild is obviously a new addition that brings a lot to the deck. While it doesn't affect the fastest games, it can have a pretty profound impact on the mid to long duration ones, and doesn't slow down any of the non-dork-enabled combos.
one card i totally forgot about is dive down card is bonkers for our game plan. I'm not sure how I can fit it in but in my version with so many guys that exile cards it seems like a must have. It will be in my 75 100%. I think I may cut the 2 spell quellers and add in 2 divedown. I can see massive insane blowouts too when they try to kill your guy during attacks or what not. There's just so much protection with that and spellskites. Here's the list I'll be testing in the meantime
I like the Eldritch Evolution approach. This was on my short list of things to try but just haven't got around to it yet. I'll move this up the list to try it out sooner than later. I like the idea of sacking a mana dork to go get Doran or pretty much anything in this deck. I also need to find a home for Rhox Faithmender. That card just ends Burn.
Yeah I've been very impressed with how well Eldritch Evolution has worked out. The worst thing that happens is it gets countered so you lose the Evolution and the sac'd creature, but it is easy enough to time around that for the most part, especially as often as decks tap out every turn these days. If I have enough mana I'll even use it as counterspell bait so I can hardcast the card I really want to, or vice versa.
I carry my 3rd Evolution in the sideboard with the idea that, when I bring any sideboard creature I bring in the 3rd Evolution as well. This saves about 6 slots of not having to run 2 of something just to maybe draw it, where with the 3x Evolution it's now like I'm basically running a playset of that creature.
Game 1 I most often Evolution for Tetsuko (probably 90% of the time) but being able to set up a bunch of 0/X creatures and have very little board presence, and then trading a dork for a Doran is amazing. I've had a boardstate multiple times of: a Bird, a Harbinger, and a Spellskite (or 2nd Harbinger, Tetsuko, another dork, anything really) with a Mardu Ascendancy out. I traded the bird for Doran, which turned a max swing of 3 (three 1/1 tokens from Mardu) on that turn into a swing of 21 (Harbinger for 3, Spellskite for 4, 2 tokens for 2, sac Mardu for another 12) very much to the surprise of my opponent.
I'll also go from a Harbinger to a dork to get my colors for my next turn, and the reverse to fix my lands for future turns. Even a Harbinger to a Harbinger to fetch another land or get a backup Doran as my next draw if I think removal for one on the battlefield is coming. It is a really versatile spell.
Rhox Faithmender has always been a pet card for this deck simply because the huge swing of effectiveness it has when it goes into a Doran deck. It goes from a kind of meh creature that costs a lot to an anti-burn badass that quite literally only has to block or attack one time to turn the entire game in my favor. It used to be in my mainboard as a 2-of, but for the sake of Game 1 speed I moved it to the side. I have no qualms whatsoever with saccing a Spellskite to get Rhox against a burn deck, or hardcasting it. Saying to an opponent "Swing for 5, gain 10 life" feels so, so good, haha. Rhox along with the Leylines turned my burn matchup from what felt like unwinnable to probably slightly in my favor. He'll also go toe-to-toe with Gurmags, just about every Goyf, and most any other Modern creature, and if they happen to be a lot bigger than he is he just becomes the world's best chump blocker.
The other really cheeky card I run off and on is Alesha, Who Smiles at Death. Being able to pull a Doran out of the GY tapped and attacking is really, really fun. Trying to fit her back into the 75 as we speak.
What does your meta look like? I can totally get onboard with evolution, I used to play that card a while back and always loved it although in a very different deck. The problem I have with it in this deck is you are saccing very important creatures in order to not necessarily win. Saccing a bird is totally legit but I have found a lot that this deck runs out of threats fast and having to kill your own guys in order to get another seems suboptimal at best. My meta is pretty hostile to Doran at the moment, lots of GBx and combo. I'm curious as to what yours is that you can afford to do this. I have struggled so heavily in a removal heavy meta. Or I just lose to the combo decks before I can even apply proper pressure outside the nut draws. The biggest issue with Doran is it's essentially a fair combo deck on it's own with very little interaction.
"I'll also go from a Harbinger to a dork to get my colors for my next turn, and the reverse to fix my lands for future turns. Even a Harbinger to a Harbinger to fetch another land or get a backup Doran as my next draw if I think removal for one on the battlefield is coming. It is a really versatile spell." what decks are you facing where this is a real line you can afford to take? How are you just not dead if you are using evolutions to get a mana dork or harbinger?
The red splash is interesting tho. How has rhythm been? It doesn't seems very strong in this archetype. Seems like a solid SB card tho.
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My meta is probably 75% popular tier decks, and the rest home brews. I frequently see Humans, Tron, Spirits, Burn, 12 Bolt, Faeries, KCI, Dredge, lots of Arclight, UR control, UW control, monoblack devotion, etc...
I should clarify that the Harbinger to Dork, Dork to Harbinger, or any other Evolution line like that are definitely not something I shoot for doing in a standard game, it's just that it's there when I need it. I would say for every time I Evolution like that, I've Evolution'd for Doran or Tetsuko 25 times. Trading for a dork or Harbinger is also more for mid to long range games where I am setting up casting two or three cards on Turn 8 or something. I don't keep opening hands unless they have the ability to play Doran on T3 or Assault Formation with an attack ready on Turn 3. I almost only sac when I know an alpha strike can win me the game, otherwise I hold off until later or don't play it at all. That's why I run Evolution as a 2x in the MB, as I never want to see 2 of them (unless it's G2 and I sideboarded in a specific hate creature), and I may not even cast the first if it isn't advantageous.
I would say that my meta is pretty hostile to Doran as well, and Stompy, and all the other kind of fair decks, which is another reason I added the red. We can stick huge threats, and with 22+ creatures we can stick them regularly, but we are still trying to race a field that is almost always going to be faster than us, but probably not as regularly hard hitting. If every turn I chump block and lose a creature, I never have a chance to put pressure on. Having a playset of bolts, 2+ trophies, and a pulse MB help to slow down the faster or more interactive opponents, making the playing field a little more even. Before I had red I was relying on 2x Abrupt Decays and maybe a Maelstrom MB (most people left 1-2 of these in the side) and that lack of interaction always felt like I could only ever actually put up a fight if it was another fair deck. For what I lost by adding red (creature density), I think I gained in interaction and midgame consistency. I don't have Tower Defense anymore for the same reason. Those flare ups of 20+ damage out of no where were so much fun, but the set up and luck they required were much harder when I had nothing but creatures to really slow down opponents.
GBx decks also used to give me a lot of trouble, but the Leylines and bolts probably helped the most with that. Almost all the discard targets you, so turning that off on T0 is really nice. Bolts take out Oozes, Bobs, BBE, turn chump blocks into the death of a Goyf, etc.. Rhox is also a good add from the board to help block and negate the damage dealt in the first few turns.
I haven't actually drawn Rhythm yet so I can't say whether or not it works how I am hoping. The best line we can normally get is Doran T2, attacking T3. In the same situation Rhythm can go down T2 (with the help of Birds), and then you still get an uncounterable Doran with haste on T3. If they counter your Rhythm or remove it on T2, that's one less counterspell for Doran, so I don't feel too bad. It also allows for a little bit less reliance on Doran, as you can just start giving creatures counters as they come into the battlefield and soon your Harbinger doesn't die to bolt, and your birds and hierarchs don't die to Gut Shots and low level sweepers. If it doesn't end up working I will probably trade it out for some extra removal, or a different form of protection if I can find it. Lightning Greaves was okay as a 2-of, but still so wonky.
I'd really suggest giving my list a try. It's so different from the more standard Doran decks that it is hard to see just how well it plays, but it also fits the playstyle I really like so I am biased. I've had a long time now to get used to playing it differently because of the 4 colors, BBE, balancing a T1 creature vs a T1 bolt, etc..
Could Zur the Enchanter be added to this deck? He tutors the enchantments and you can play more interaction instead of redundant copies of Assault Formation.
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he sure can, I'm pretty sure there's another thread out there with zur and doran. I like those lists. I may revist now that we have cards like deputy and dive down. lot of strong things goin on with esper colors.
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In versions that run Ensnaring Bridge main, this is a good way to dump your hand faster and ramp at the same time. Also, with Assault Formation out (using the +ability), it can potentially eat Arclight Phoenix every turn
And I thought Huatli, the Sun's Heart might be good here as a more vulnerable Assault Formation that can be cast with white instead of green mana and that can give you life gain that quickly outraces Burn.
We needed more Doran effects but huatli is really disappointing. She costs more than assault and is easier to deal with. Gaining life is great and all but she doesn't really do anything. She seems good as a sb option tho. If she had a plus then I'd be more excited by her. Formation is just better in every way. Spending your t3 to play her and gain 4ish life seems really bad
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I've actually been ok with 3 Doran and 4 Assault Formation. I've been able to find my enablers every game lately with the addition of Commune with the Gods. It finds enablers and pumps my Tarmogoyf very quickly. Sometimes you get stuck wanting more than 1 card from the 5 but it really helps smooth out finding key cards.
I run 3 Doran and 3 Assault Formation, and I will be replacing 1-2 of the Assault Formations for the new Huatli.
My reasoning is this - I have used the creature pump ability of Formation a half dozen times in hundreds of games. I run BBE so cascading into a second Formation, or even hitting the first one when I already have Doran out really sucks. With Huatli, instantly healing for 3-5, and being able to do it again next turn is awesome. It doesn't matter that it costs 1 more than Formation, as Formation should only be part of your backup to Doran and not an essential part of your curve. The only other way to get consistent Game 1 lifegain in a deck like this, without diluting the creature base, is with Knight of Autumn. On top of that, having 3 ways to produce essentially the same effect means it is harder to keep you off of it. A [[Meddling Mage]] naming Doran or Formation with a Huatli or two in the deck means you aren't screwed.
As for the Grazer, that spoiler was very exciting to me. A 3/3 with Reach that can drop another dual or tri-land and cost G is fantastic. I don't know about you guys, but I run between 4-6 manadorks, and when they get bolted or Gut Shotted or whatever and it really sets me back. The fact that this can come out on T1, ready to block, and the ramp it creates doesn't die when it does, is just fantastic. My nut draws are normally 20 damage on T3, and this allows 3 damage on T2 followed by 22 on T3. Outside of the nut draws, it is just a bigger butt with a more consistent form of ramp.
I'm not sure of the effect it will have on my landbase (you need more since it isn't a traditional dork), but I will be running a playset and then working back from there.
I decided to go to the mcm tournament in Gent with my own Doran deck and wanted to share my thoughts a bit as well as blowing some new life in the threat.
I have seen the versions on the other pages but wanted to take a different approach then most of you. I thought that instead of going full aggro, some extra removal would be great. Instead of 1 drops that won't do anything on their own I run discard to have some good game vs combo decks while at the same time protecting my own hand from their discard if i'm on the play or disrupting them, giving us more time to find a doran/Formation.
Another important reason was that I was seeking a deck that could run mainboard rest in peace, while still having plenty of pressure on the opponent. I think this deck fits the bill quite nicely for that. So here is what I ran:
In the end I finished 4-6 so not that great :/ I might have made a mistake in sideboarding in one game that costed me the match, got stuck on 2 lands once and drew 6 lands in a row twice (All with 2 lands in my opener and stuff to do) that costs me 2 games. Considering that I think the deck is fine and could do very well with a bit more luck. Most games were quite close and I never felt a matchup was unwinnable except my game vs BW Tokens/Lifegain. Ughh
I played against 9 different deck in 10 rounds which was awesome but not really what I prepared for. I was ready/hoping for more phoenix and dredge to give my maindeck rest in peace more use.
I might do a short tournament report later if someone is interested.
Trov, my only suggestion is that a lot of the deck's consistency relies on Treefolk Harbinger to find Doran, smooth land drops, or help color fix. Without it, the deck durdles too often with 0/X creatures on the battlefield that can at most only defend (if there are no fliers).
6 critical cards out of 60 with no tutors or extra draw is pretty rough.
Totally agree. Harbinger is almost required in a Doran deck. 3 colors is hard enough even with Harbinger. I applaud the attempt at trying something new but I do think you are making it hard without it
You guys might be right, but I didn't want to risk it with all the surgicals going around these days. I never had color issues so i feel the mana base is pretty good, though I would love to have verdant catacombs which i cut due budget constraints. I felt the Harbinger wouldn't do enough once doran is gone and it sucks if a shuffle effect shuffles the one on top away.
I tried to fill the gap that opens up while waiting for a doran with the smiter and removal. It makes us less reliant on doran while still having highly efficient creatures. I feel like that worked pretty well though I did have one game I had 10 toughness on the board doing nothing for the whole game, but that happened only once I think. Usually there is only 1 defender and a smiter, while I do other stuff until I find a doran/Formation.
Between FNM and playtesting I've probably played more than 600 games with my Doran deck, and I would say the number of times a shuffle effect screwed me is less than 10. I have personally screwed myself with the sequencing much more than that, like fetching a land to the top and then playing a BBE.
What about Surgical are you worried about? A surgical on a fetchland in response to you putting a Doran on top with Harbinger? If so, you are worried about that precisely because you have such a hard time getting to Doran in the first place.
The reason I brought up Harbinger is you said yourself you had a game with only two lands, and you have two games where you got 6 in a row, all in the same night. This is where Harbinger helps immensely. It also allows you to run Murmuring Bosk, which alongside Harbingers comes into play untapped a lot more often than Blooming Marsh does.
I say drop the Siege Rhino (this casting cost is brutal with your landbase), the two Nyx-fleece, and a Spellskite to get the playset of Harbinger in. As for the Harbinger not doing enough if Doran is gone, this just gets back around to why you need Harbinger in the first place, so they can't keep you off of Doran or Doran like effects. If you still don't want Harbinger, at least get some Courser of Kruphix in there to smooth out your land drops.
I tried a removal heavy deck at one point, but after a while I realized that I was giving up a lot of pressure just to trade 1-for-1 with interaction. I don't think the Paths are out of place, but 3 Abrupt Decays is a lot. I would think 2-3 Paths, 1-2 Assassin's Trophy, and the single Maelstrom Pulse would hit a lot more things you would be worried about Game 1.
The mainboard Rest in Peace's would be a lot better suited as Relic of Progenitus. What do you do in Game 1's where they don't care about the GY? Just not cast it? Then it's a dead card taking up two slots. At least with Relic it is easier to cast in general, and turns into draw if you don't need it.
You're using Smiter as a bandaid. Its second ability only really works with Lili who is not run anywhere close to the degree she was when Jund was king. Inquisition and Thoughtseize don't factor in because an opponent would never choose to pitch the Smiter and just have it come into play instead. But let's say you do get it down, a 4/4 with summoning sickness isn't all that scary anymore. If it had flying or reach naturally it would be a different story, but the number of flyers that are currently played is huge compared to what it used to be. You only have 7 creatures total, including 2 Hierarchs that can attack at all without Doran or Formation. If you want the deck to not rely on him at much, you have to drastically increase that number, even if it only means through 1/X's or 2/X's. A playset of Courser's for starters.
Doran decks can't really win wars of attrition against other decks, as they get worse as time goes on, not better. The thing that makes them good is value, you're making a 5/5 for 3 that makes other value creatures 3/3's or 4/4's right after, creature that cost you almost nothing to put out, so that a single combat step threatens to kill them, whether Doran is attacking or not. Without a high creature density, your boardstate becomes just a creature or two by turn 5 or 6, and because of things like Dredge/Phoenix/Tron, most decks are running just as much removal as you are, but not at the detriment to your own deck.
Your deck is doing a lot of things a little bit. For instance you have 4 pieces of ramp, 4 pieces of hand disruption, and 7 pieces of removal. That level of redundancy means you are likely to have some games with no ramp, no hand disruption, and less rarely, games without removal. You have 3 Tower Defense, but at 19 creatures you are most likely using that on defense, since you can't guarantee Doran or Assault Formation will be out.
I don't think everyone should run a Doran deck like I do, adding red for Bolt and BBE, but my deck really punishes others that can't keep pace with the number of creatures I put out. I have a Doran on T2 often, a Doran by T3 more than 75% of the time, and if I lose that one I have the means to get that effect out again within a turn or two. The only time I've ever been kept off of every Doran and Formation was against Lantern Control. I am only able to get anywhere near that consistency because of Harbinger being at worst a big chump blocker, is also essentially a modal tutor/fetch, all for just G.
Between FNM and playtesting I've probably played more than 600 games with my Doran deck, and I would say the number of times a shuffle effect screwed me is less than 10. I have personally screwed myself with the sequencing much more than that, like fetching a land to the top and then playing a BBE.
What about Surgical are you worried about? A surgical on a fetchland in response to you putting a Doran on top with Harbinger? If so, you are worried about that precisely because you have such a hard time getting to Doran in the first place.
The reason I brought up Harbinger is you said yourself you had a game with only two lands, and you have two games where you got 6 in a row, all in the same night. This is where Harbinger helps immensely. It also allows you to run Murmuring Bosk, which alongside Harbingers comes into play untapped a lot more often than Blooming Marsh does.
Well, I was mostly concerned about doran getting surgicalled. I did consider running Eldritch Evolution as 1-2off to tutor when needed. It makes siege rhino much better aswell.
I say drop the Siege Rhino (this casting cost is brutal with your landbase), the two Nyx-fleece, and a Spellskite to get the playset of Harbinger in. As for the Harbinger not doing enough if Doran is gone, this just gets back around to why you need Harbinger in the first place, so they can't keep you off of Doran or Doran like effects. If you still don't want Harbinger, at least get some Courser of Kruphix in there to smooth out your land drops.
I tried a removal heavy deck at one point, but after a while I realized that I was giving up a lot of pressure just to trade 1-for-1 with interaction. I don't think the Paths are out of place, but 3 Abrupt Decays is a lot. I would think 2-3 Paths, 1-2 Assassin's Trophy, and the single Maelstrom Pulse would hit a lot more things you would be worried about Game 1.
Somehow Courser of Kruphix never came to mind, but he might be worth testing, I wanted to have some 2 drops in addition to spellskite to do something early and threaten some dmg with a followup doran/Formation which is why I preferred the ram over other 3 drops.
I agree that Abrupt Decay is not as good sometimes but it does actually kill almost everything i'm afraid of in game 1. The worst part is that it is a potentially dead card against combo decks. The good thing is that it doesn't ramp my opponent as a trade off, I don't want to give my opponent to many lands since I already use path.
I liked the Rhino but he does slow the deck down allot so i cut down to only one, the reason why I still left one was to have a creature with pseudo-evasion should it ever be needed, as well as a potential source of direct dmg vs death shadow. He would probably be the first thing to cut though.
The mainboard Rest in Peace's would be a lot better suited as Relic of Progenitus. What do you do in Game 1's where they don't care about the GY? Just not cast it? Then it's a dead card taking up two slots. At least with Relic it is easier to cast in general, and turns into draw if you don't need it.
True, this was a calculated risk, I expected a very heavy graveyard meta and hoped to gain some free wins with this game 1. As I said, it did not pay off, I never drew them when I needed them and I did when i did not need it more often the not. I choose for rest in peace because that card can win game 1 against a graveyard deck, while relic usually only slows it down and has way less impact unless there is some artifact synergy. The next time at a big tournament I think I will just run it in the sideboard.
You're using Smiter as a bandaid. Its second ability only really works with Lili who is not run anywhere close to the degree she was when Jund was king. Inquisition and Thoughtseize don't factor in because an opponent would never choose to pitch the Smiter and just have it come into play instead. But let's say you do get it down, a 4/4 with summoning sickness isn't all that scary anymore. If it had flying or reach naturally it would be a different story, but the number of flyers that are currently played is huge compared to what it used to be. You only have 7 creatures total, including 2 Hierarchs that can attack at all without Doran or Formation. If you want the deck to not rely on him at much, you have to drastically increase that number, even if it only means through 1/X's or 2/X's. A playset of Courser's for starters.
Doran decks can't really win wars of attrition against other decks, as they get worse as time goes on, not better. The thing that makes them good is value, you're making a 5/5 for 3 that makes other value creatures 3/3's or 4/4's right after, creature that cost you almost nothing to put out, so that a single combat step threatens to kill them, whether Doran is attacking or not. Without a high creature density, your boardstate becomes just a creature or two by turn 5 or 6, and because of things like Dredge/Phoenix/Tron, most decks are running just as much removal as you are, but not at the detriment to your own deck.
I still ran Tower defense so I could always threaten a kill with even only 1 creature but the card was indeed underwhelming, mostly because my creatures are easily chump blocked and indeed, there are not enough of them to make sure a few will go unblocked. I normally ran lingering souls to solve this problem but I moved the card to the sideboard in favor of rest in peace while still keeping Tower defense in the maindeck which might have been a mistake. I probably should have paired them up either in the board or the maindeck.
Your deck is doing a lot of things a little bit. For instance you have 4 pieces of ramp, 4 pieces of hand disruption, and 7 pieces of removal. That level of redundancy means you are likely to have some games with no ramp, no hand disruption, and less rarely, games without removal. You have 3 Tower Defense, but at 19 creatures you are most likely using that on defense, since you can't guarantee Doran or Assault Formation will be out.
I don't think everyone should run a Doran deck like I do, adding red for Bolt and BBE, but my deck really punishes others that can't keep pace with the number of creatures I put out. I have a Doran on T2 often, a Doran by T3 more than 75% of the time, and if I lose that one I have the means to get that effect out again within a turn or two. The only time I've ever been kept off of every Doran and Formation was against Lantern Control. I am only able to get anywhere near that consistency because of Harbinger being at worst a big chump blocker, is also essentially a modal tutor/fetch, all for just G.
While what you say is true, I usually look more at the curve then at the specific effect of what I can do on turn one. Both are usually great since if you have the discard you know what your up against and can disrupt it, while when you have the ramp it speeds you up to you first creature while the opponent still has to fear the discard when he keeps his opening hand. There is almost always a 2 mana and 3 mana card in hand to use as a follow up and curve out.
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Do you have a decklist anywhere I could see? I'm still in the process of getting all the cards together/deciding on my 75. At the moment I'm trying to make a list without goyfs as I can't afford them. Was thinking of just putting buglers or other beaters for the time being till I can get my playset.
Haven't really played around with the deck so not sure about cutting souls. At first glance they seem necessary for the midrange matchups though.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/803482-high-alert
Someone at WoTC must really want this deck to be a thing. This makes Bant way more attractive for this deck. Not sure where that leaves Doran however. Is 4 colors too much?
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
4 noble hierarch
4 treefolk harbinger
4 kitesail freebooter
4 spellskite
2 tetsuko umezawa, fugitive
4 deputy of detention
4 doran, the siege tower
2 spell queller
4 aether vial
3 assault formation
3 ensnaring bridge
lands
1 blooming marsh
1 botanical sanctum
2 razorverge thicket
3 windswept heath
3 misty rainforest
1 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 hallowed fountain
1 temple garden
1 watery grave
2 plains
2 forest
1 island
1 murmoring bosk
1 gavony township
4 noble hierarch
4 treefolk harbinger
3 nyx-fleece ram
4 spellskite
3 tetsuko umezawa, fugitive
4 deputy of detention
4 doran, the siege tower
1 courser of kruphix
2 reflector mage
4 collected company
4 assault formation
lands
2 botanical sanctum
2 razorverge thicket
3 windswept heath
4 misty rainforest
1 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 hallowed fountain
1 temple garden
1 watery grave
2 plains
2 forest
1 island
1 murmoring bosk
1 gavony township
Both are obviously very similar but both have a different hot take. The first is much more controlly and punishing but at the same time has a lot of dead duplicate cards. the second is more standard beatdown but has less interaction. I'm leaning towards the first build as it's like halfway between spirits and humans and can randomly just hose decks with bridge and unblockable fatties. I'm sure the numbers need tweaking and I haven't actually tried deputy out but he seems crazy good in this list. Especially since there are so many kill on sight creatures. That's also another weakness. 1 damnation and it's a blowout of the century. I plan to jam some games soon.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
Edit: In regards to deputy of detention, I think the upside is it takes the removal heat away from Doran while providing removal in the absence of Path to Exile. That might be my next test.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Treefolk Harbinger
3 Nyx-Fleece Ram
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Spellskite
3 Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Wall of Denial
Spells:14
4 Aether Vial
4 Assault Formation
2 Commune with the Gods
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 High Alert
2 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Knight of Autumn
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Damping Sphere
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Slaughter the Strong
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Graveblade Marauder
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Spellskite
1 Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive
4 Treefolk Harbinger
1 Forest
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Mountain
4 Murmuring Bosk
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
4 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Assassin's Trophy
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries (3)
2 Eldritch Evolution
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Enchantments (7)
3 Assault Formation
2 Mardu Ascendancy
2 Rhythm of the Wild
I'm rebuilding the sideboard, but currently the core is:
1 Eldritch Evolution
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Obelisk Spider
1 Rhox Faithmender
2 Spellskite
Testing out 1 each of Kataki, War's Wage,Knight of Autumn, and Lavinia, Azorius Renegade for the sideboard as well. Really only feel like I am missing some good sweepers, but as much as I like Slaughter the Strong it doesn't hit the creatures I am most worried about, and Anger of the Gods hits too many of my utility creatures, but I can cascade into it. Currently leaning heavily on Ensnaring Bridge for that role.
I played Abzan Doran originally, but it was slower and really missing pressure and interaction in vital spots.
After adding Red the deck really came alive, and I've been tweaking that for the last year or so.
Eldritch Evolution has been fantastic, and has allowed me to run one-of's of really stellar creatures like Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive, Gaddock Teeg, and Rhox Faithmender that I never really want to draw a second copy of.
Bloodbraid Elf has been very strong, and I will never switch back. It's completely changed the competitiveness of the deck.
I ran 4x Birds of Paradise for a very long time, but recently decided that I wanted to speed the deck up a bit more and smooth out the consistency, so I added 2x Noble Hierarch and 2x Courser of Kruphix and the pressure has definitely improved. During this same time I dropped 2x Spellskite to the side, and dropped a basic Forest (this may get rebalanced because of the popularity of Path and Ass Trophy).
Mardu Ascendancy allows the deck to go wide and tall at the same time, as well as filling the slot that Tower Defense used to, while being a better Cascade target.
Rhythm of the Wild is obviously a new addition that brings a lot to the deck. While it doesn't affect the fastest games, it can have a pretty profound impact on the mid to long duration ones, and doesn't slow down any of the non-dork-enabled combos.
4 noble hierarch
4 treefolk harbinger
4 kitesail freebooter
4 spellskite
3 tetsuko umezawa, fugitive
4 deputy of detention
4 doran, the siege tower
spells
4 aether vial
3 assault formation
3 ensnaring bridge
2 dive down
1 blooming marsh
1 botanical sanctum
2 razorverge thicket
3 windswept heath
3 misty rainforest
1 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
1 hallowed fountain
1 temple garden
1 watery grave
2 plains
2 forest
1 island
1 murmoring bosk
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
I carry my 3rd Evolution in the sideboard with the idea that, when I bring any sideboard creature I bring in the 3rd Evolution as well. This saves about 6 slots of not having to run 2 of something just to maybe draw it, where with the 3x Evolution it's now like I'm basically running a playset of that creature.
Game 1 I most often Evolution for Tetsuko (probably 90% of the time) but being able to set up a bunch of 0/X creatures and have very little board presence, and then trading a dork for a Doran is amazing. I've had a boardstate multiple times of: a Bird, a Harbinger, and a Spellskite (or 2nd Harbinger, Tetsuko, another dork, anything really) with a Mardu Ascendancy out. I traded the bird for Doran, which turned a max swing of 3 (three 1/1 tokens from Mardu) on that turn into a swing of 21 (Harbinger for 3, Spellskite for 4, 2 tokens for 2, sac Mardu for another 12) very much to the surprise of my opponent.
I'll also go from a Harbinger to a dork to get my colors for my next turn, and the reverse to fix my lands for future turns. Even a Harbinger to a Harbinger to fetch another land or get a backup Doran as my next draw if I think removal for one on the battlefield is coming. It is a really versatile spell.
Rhox Faithmender has always been a pet card for this deck simply because the huge swing of effectiveness it has when it goes into a Doran deck. It goes from a kind of meh creature that costs a lot to an anti-burn badass that quite literally only has to block or attack one time to turn the entire game in my favor. It used to be in my mainboard as a 2-of, but for the sake of Game 1 speed I moved it to the side. I have no qualms whatsoever with saccing a Spellskite to get Rhox against a burn deck, or hardcasting it. Saying to an opponent "Swing for 5, gain 10 life" feels so, so good, haha. Rhox along with the Leylines turned my burn matchup from what felt like unwinnable to probably slightly in my favor. He'll also go toe-to-toe with Gurmags, just about every Goyf, and most any other Modern creature, and if they happen to be a lot bigger than he is he just becomes the world's best chump blocker.
The other really cheeky card I run off and on is Alesha, Who Smiles at Death. Being able to pull a Doran out of the GY tapped and attacking is really, really fun. Trying to fit her back into the 75 as we speak.
"I'll also go from a Harbinger to a dork to get my colors for my next turn, and the reverse to fix my lands for future turns. Even a Harbinger to a Harbinger to fetch another land or get a backup Doran as my next draw if I think removal for one on the battlefield is coming. It is a really versatile spell." what decks are you facing where this is a real line you can afford to take? How are you just not dead if you are using evolutions to get a mana dork or harbinger?
The red splash is interesting tho. How has rhythm been? It doesn't seems very strong in this archetype. Seems like a solid SB card tho.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
I should clarify that the Harbinger to Dork, Dork to Harbinger, or any other Evolution line like that are definitely not something I shoot for doing in a standard game, it's just that it's there when I need it. I would say for every time I Evolution like that, I've Evolution'd for Doran or Tetsuko 25 times. Trading for a dork or Harbinger is also more for mid to long range games where I am setting up casting two or three cards on Turn 8 or something. I don't keep opening hands unless they have the ability to play Doran on T3 or Assault Formation with an attack ready on Turn 3. I almost only sac when I know an alpha strike can win me the game, otherwise I hold off until later or don't play it at all. That's why I run Evolution as a 2x in the MB, as I never want to see 2 of them (unless it's G2 and I sideboarded in a specific hate creature), and I may not even cast the first if it isn't advantageous.
I would say that my meta is pretty hostile to Doran as well, and Stompy, and all the other kind of fair decks, which is another reason I added the red. We can stick huge threats, and with 22+ creatures we can stick them regularly, but we are still trying to race a field that is almost always going to be faster than us, but probably not as regularly hard hitting. If every turn I chump block and lose a creature, I never have a chance to put pressure on. Having a playset of bolts, 2+ trophies, and a pulse MB help to slow down the faster or more interactive opponents, making the playing field a little more even. Before I had red I was relying on 2x Abrupt Decays and maybe a Maelstrom MB (most people left 1-2 of these in the side) and that lack of interaction always felt like I could only ever actually put up a fight if it was another fair deck. For what I lost by adding red (creature density), I think I gained in interaction and midgame consistency. I don't have Tower Defense anymore for the same reason. Those flare ups of 20+ damage out of no where were so much fun, but the set up and luck they required were much harder when I had nothing but creatures to really slow down opponents.
GBx decks also used to give me a lot of trouble, but the Leylines and bolts probably helped the most with that. Almost all the discard targets you, so turning that off on T0 is really nice. Bolts take out Oozes, Bobs, BBE, turn chump blocks into the death of a Goyf, etc.. Rhox is also a good add from the board to help block and negate the damage dealt in the first few turns.
I haven't actually drawn Rhythm yet so I can't say whether or not it works how I am hoping. The best line we can normally get is Doran T2, attacking T3. In the same situation Rhythm can go down T2 (with the help of Birds), and then you still get an uncounterable Doran with haste on T3. If they counter your Rhythm or remove it on T2, that's one less counterspell for Doran, so I don't feel too bad. It also allows for a little bit less reliance on Doran, as you can just start giving creatures counters as they come into the battlefield and soon your Harbinger doesn't die to bolt, and your birds and hierarchs don't die to Gut Shots and low level sweepers. If it doesn't end up working I will probably trade it out for some extra removal, or a different form of protection if I can find it. Lightning Greaves was okay as a 2-of, but still so wonky.
I'd really suggest giving my list a try. It's so different from the more standard Doran decks that it is hard to see just how well it plays, but it also fits the playstyle I really like so I am biased. I've had a long time now to get used to playing it differently because of the 4 colors, BBE, balancing a T1 creature vs a T1 bolt, etc..
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/war-of-the-spark/36308-arboreal-grazer
In versions that run Ensnaring Bridge main, this is a good way to dump your hand faster and ramp at the same time. Also, with Assault Formation out (using the +ability), it can potentially eat Arclight Phoenix every turn
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
My reasoning is this - I have used the creature pump ability of Formation a half dozen times in hundreds of games. I run BBE so cascading into a second Formation, or even hitting the first one when I already have Doran out really sucks. With Huatli, instantly healing for 3-5, and being able to do it again next turn is awesome. It doesn't matter that it costs 1 more than Formation, as Formation should only be part of your backup to Doran and not an essential part of your curve. The only other way to get consistent Game 1 lifegain in a deck like this, without diluting the creature base, is with Knight of Autumn. On top of that, having 3 ways to produce essentially the same effect means it is harder to keep you off of it. A [[Meddling Mage]] naming Doran or Formation with a Huatli or two in the deck means you aren't screwed.
As for the Grazer, that spoiler was very exciting to me. A 3/3 with Reach that can drop another dual or tri-land and cost G is fantastic. I don't know about you guys, but I run between 4-6 manadorks, and when they get bolted or Gut Shotted or whatever and it really sets me back. The fact that this can come out on T1, ready to block, and the ramp it creates doesn't die when it does, is just fantastic. My nut draws are normally 20 damage on T3, and this allows 3 damage on T2 followed by 22 on T3. Outside of the nut draws, it is just a bigger butt with a more consistent form of ramp.
I'm not sure of the effect it will have on my landbase (you need more since it isn't a traditional dork), but I will be running a playset and then working back from there.
I decided to go to the mcm tournament in Gent with my own Doran deck and wanted to share my thoughts a bit as well as blowing some new life in the threat.
I have seen the versions on the other pages but wanted to take a different approach then most of you. I thought that instead of going full aggro, some extra removal would be great. Instead of 1 drops that won't do anything on their own I run discard to have some good game vs combo decks while at the same time protecting my own hand from their discard if i'm on the play or disrupting them, giving us more time to find a doran/Formation.
Another important reason was that I was seeking a deck that could run mainboard rest in peace, while still having plenty of pressure on the opponent. I think this deck fits the bill quite nicely for that. So here is what I ran:
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
4 Spellskite
4 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Siege Rhino
Spells:18
2 Rest in Peace
2 Assault Formation
3 Tower Defence
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Blooming Marsh
2 Forest
2 Godless Shrine
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 swamp
2 Temple Garden
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Windswept Heath
2 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dusk // Dawn
4 Lingering Souls
In the end I finished 4-6 so not that great :/ I might have made a mistake in sideboarding in one game that costed me the match, got stuck on 2 lands once and drew 6 lands in a row twice (All with 2 lands in my opener and stuff to do) that costs me 2 games. Considering that I think the deck is fine and could do very well with a bit more luck. Most games were quite close and I never felt a matchup was unwinnable except my game vs BW Tokens/Lifegain. Ughh
I played against 9 different deck in 10 rounds which was awesome but not really what I prepared for. I was ready/hoping for more phoenix and dredge to give my maindeck rest in peace more use.
I might do a short tournament report later if someone is interested.
6 critical cards out of 60 with no tutors or extra draw is pretty rough.
I tried to fill the gap that opens up while waiting for a doran with the smiter and removal. It makes us less reliant on doran while still having highly efficient creatures. I feel like that worked pretty well though I did have one game I had 10 toughness on the board doing nothing for the whole game, but that happened only once I think. Usually there is only 1 defender and a smiter, while I do other stuff until I find a doran/Formation.
What about Surgical are you worried about? A surgical on a fetchland in response to you putting a Doran on top with Harbinger? If so, you are worried about that precisely because you have such a hard time getting to Doran in the first place.
The reason I brought up Harbinger is you said yourself you had a game with only two lands, and you have two games where you got 6 in a row, all in the same night. This is where Harbinger helps immensely. It also allows you to run Murmuring Bosk, which alongside Harbingers comes into play untapped a lot more often than Blooming Marsh does.
I say drop the Siege Rhino (this casting cost is brutal with your landbase), the two Nyx-fleece, and a Spellskite to get the playset of Harbinger in. As for the Harbinger not doing enough if Doran is gone, this just gets back around to why you need Harbinger in the first place, so they can't keep you off of Doran or Doran like effects. If you still don't want Harbinger, at least get some Courser of Kruphix in there to smooth out your land drops.
I tried a removal heavy deck at one point, but after a while I realized that I was giving up a lot of pressure just to trade 1-for-1 with interaction. I don't think the Paths are out of place, but 3 Abrupt Decays is a lot. I would think 2-3 Paths, 1-2 Assassin's Trophy, and the single Maelstrom Pulse would hit a lot more things you would be worried about Game 1.
The mainboard Rest in Peace's would be a lot better suited as Relic of Progenitus. What do you do in Game 1's where they don't care about the GY? Just not cast it? Then it's a dead card taking up two slots. At least with Relic it is easier to cast in general, and turns into draw if you don't need it.
You're using Smiter as a bandaid. Its second ability only really works with Lili who is not run anywhere close to the degree she was when Jund was king. Inquisition and Thoughtseize don't factor in because an opponent would never choose to pitch the Smiter and just have it come into play instead. But let's say you do get it down, a 4/4 with summoning sickness isn't all that scary anymore. If it had flying or reach naturally it would be a different story, but the number of flyers that are currently played is huge compared to what it used to be. You only have 7 creatures total, including 2 Hierarchs that can attack at all without Doran or Formation. If you want the deck to not rely on him at much, you have to drastically increase that number, even if it only means through 1/X's or 2/X's. A playset of Courser's for starters.
Doran decks can't really win wars of attrition against other decks, as they get worse as time goes on, not better. The thing that makes them good is value, you're making a 5/5 for 3 that makes other value creatures 3/3's or 4/4's right after, creature that cost you almost nothing to put out, so that a single combat step threatens to kill them, whether Doran is attacking or not. Without a high creature density, your boardstate becomes just a creature or two by turn 5 or 6, and because of things like Dredge/Phoenix/Tron, most decks are running just as much removal as you are, but not at the detriment to your own deck.
Your deck is doing a lot of things a little bit. For instance you have 4 pieces of ramp, 4 pieces of hand disruption, and 7 pieces of removal. That level of redundancy means you are likely to have some games with no ramp, no hand disruption, and less rarely, games without removal. You have 3 Tower Defense, but at 19 creatures you are most likely using that on defense, since you can't guarantee Doran or Assault Formation will be out.
I don't think everyone should run a Doran deck like I do, adding red for Bolt and BBE, but my deck really punishes others that can't keep pace with the number of creatures I put out. I have a Doran on T2 often, a Doran by T3 more than 75% of the time, and if I lose that one I have the means to get that effect out again within a turn or two. The only time I've ever been kept off of every Doran and Formation was against Lantern Control. I am only able to get anywhere near that consistency because of Harbinger being at worst a big chump blocker, is also essentially a modal tutor/fetch, all for just G.
Well, I was mostly concerned about doran getting surgicalled. I did consider running Eldritch Evolution as 1-2off to tutor when needed. It makes siege rhino much better aswell.
Somehow Courser of Kruphix never came to mind, but he might be worth testing, I wanted to have some 2 drops in addition to spellskite to do something early and threaten some dmg with a followup doran/Formation which is why I preferred the ram over other 3 drops.
I agree that Abrupt Decay is not as good sometimes but it does actually kill almost everything i'm afraid of in game 1. The worst part is that it is a potentially dead card against combo decks. The good thing is that it doesn't ramp my opponent as a trade off, I don't want to give my opponent to many lands since I already use path.
I liked the Rhino but he does slow the deck down allot so i cut down to only one, the reason why I still left one was to have a creature with pseudo-evasion should it ever be needed, as well as a potential source of direct dmg vs death shadow. He would probably be the first thing to cut though.
True, this was a calculated risk, I expected a very heavy graveyard meta and hoped to gain some free wins with this game 1. As I said, it did not pay off, I never drew them when I needed them and I did when i did not need it more often the not. I choose for rest in peace because that card can win game 1 against a graveyard deck, while relic usually only slows it down and has way less impact unless there is some artifact synergy. The next time at a big tournament I think I will just run it in the sideboard.
I still ran Tower defense so I could always threaten a kill with even only 1 creature but the card was indeed underwhelming, mostly because my creatures are easily chump blocked and indeed, there are not enough of them to make sure a few will go unblocked. I normally ran lingering souls to solve this problem but I moved the card to the sideboard in favor of rest in peace while still keeping Tower defense in the maindeck which might have been a mistake. I probably should have paired them up either in the board or the maindeck.
While what you say is true, I usually look more at the curve then at the specific effect of what I can do on turn one. Both are usually great since if you have the discard you know what your up against and can disrupt it, while when you have the ramp it speeds you up to you first creature while the opponent still has to fear the discard when he keeps his opening hand. There is almost always a 2 mana and 3 mana card in hand to use as a follow up and curve out.