I'm actually considering sleeving this up for my store's Modern FMN. There are A LOT of creature decks running around unchecked right now, everything from Zoo to Merfolk to Affinity, and I think something like this will be an interesting way to attack such a format. There are some combo/control lists to watch out for as well (Twin, Mono U Tron, and UWR Geist to name a few) so it'll be a very diverse set of matches I think.
Also, on the subject of discard that's not a bad topdeck, have we considered Mardu Charm? Yes, it's a very clunky Duress and Crackling Doom/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize is probably better, but it can also make us some blockers on the ground or kill something small.
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I have a friend in our play group that plays GR tron regularly. Wurmcoil is easily dealt with using one piece of removal and killing the others with tokens in my current version. That said Wurmcoil spells big trouble if all you have is a bolt and no creatures to block.
The worst card to see is Ugin or Karn.
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Valanarch, how has Pack Rat done in testing? Personally I've enjoyed Sorin 3.0 for its Lingering Souls syngeries and life cushion, but I was wondering if Rats was a better way to go.
Pack Rat is sweet. Sorin, while ok on his own, was only great with Gideon and Lingering Souls. Otherwise he is just a 3/2 flier with lifelink. Pack Rat seems better so far, but keep in mind that these are only test games for now and that I still need to do a lot more testing to be sure.
Just a few points of interest from the last flurry of posts:
Quote from "Valanarch" »
Discard is something that we actively don't want except against Combo. Why stop your opponent from playing cards when you can let them play them and then kill them?
I can't tell if you were making a joke, but I'll proceed as if you were serious. Cards is the key word here. You don't actually kill cards. You kill only creatures (and planeswalkers, to a lesser extent). But there are a lot of threatening non-creature cards you can face in modern. Stopping them before they get a chance to play them is better in the overwhelmingly vast majority of situations, and it's the reason why black is so prevalent in modern.
Which noncreature, nonplaneswalker, nonlands cards are we worried about? The only ones that I can think of are Hive Mind, Ad Nauseum, Pyromancer Ascension, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, Scapeshift, Amulet of Vigor, and Cranial Plating. Cranial Plating only sees play in decks that are a good matchup for us, Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach only see play in a relatively fragile an inconsistent combo deck that can easily be hated out, and my sideboard easily stops Storm and Ad Nauseum (and hurts Scapeshift a lot). So that basically means that I'd be running discard just to stop Amulet and Bogles, which doesn't seem worth it.
Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are like modern's version of Force of Will, keeping the format in check. I'm not saying you should or should not run them. I'm just saying that letting your opponent play creatures and then killing them is frequently less mana efficient, sometimes impossible (vs. hexproof, for instance), or plain ol' disadvantageous (vs. enters the battlefield triggers) rather than forcing them to discard it, in which case you also get to see their hand for further added value.
You're right, Inquisition and Thoughtseize are like a Modern version of Force of Will. But to continue the analogy, Force of Will is traditionally only good against Combo decks. There isn't enough noncreature combo in Modern to make discard better than removal, since the opponent has to spend mana and time casting creatures that we are just going to remove. Discard also is only an answer to future threats and is a horrible topdeck. Removal can kill most threats in Modern as soon as they hit play. Very few threats (just Wurmcoil Engine, Gladecover Scout, Slippery Bogle, and Geist of Saint Traft) have protection that we have to worry about and the ETB effects usually aren't that strong against us (other than Eternal Witness and Snapcaster Mage).
Re: Slaughter Games. Val already touched on it sometimes being too slow, but it's a card that ends up in the sideboard all the time, and almost never lives up to the imagined potential. I can't think of many successful decks that employed it.
I think that in this deck it can actually work really well. Our worst matchups are combo decks like Storm, Amulet Bloom, and Scapeshift, and all of those decks are relatively weak to Slaughter Games (assuming that your Amulet Bloom opponent doesn't Hive Mind kill you on turn 2 or 3). Sure, it isn't great against Tron, but it is strong against many of our other problematic matchups.
As for Pack Rat (keep in mind TribalElfMage, Valanarch isn't actually testing this against live competition, so if you have a version of this deck sleeved up, you're probably in a better position to provide feedback by testing it out), I think I'd rather see it take up Gideon's spots first, rather than Sorin's. I mean, Gideon is an awesome tool that control decks have used for a long time, but this isn't your average control shell. The sheer amount of creature kill makes me think Gideon might just end up being an overcosted beater half the time.
I like Gideon a lot. While he is often just a 5 mana 6/6 that can't be dealt damage, he also allows you to tap low against Splinter Twin without worrying about being comboed out. He is very strong against decks like BGx and Grixis, since he is not only a massive threat in the lategame but can also kill creatures if you are drawing poorly (like drawing Bolts against Goyfs).
I'm also a tad worried that the Pack Rat won't have enough fuel to be really scary, but I like how early he comes down, and against some decks it seems like a ringer.
We don't really need any fuel for Pack Rat. Even discarding every card we draw each turn to it is fine because if it is still in play that means that your opponent is soon going to be dead.
I'm actually considering sleeving this up for my store's Modern FMN. There are A LOT of creature decks running around unchecked right now, everything from Zoo to Merfolk to Affinity, and I think something like this will be an interesting way to attack such a format. There are some combo/control lists to watch out for as well (Twin, Mono U Tron, and UWR Geist to name a few) so it'll be a very diverse set of matches I think.
If you decide to take it, good luck! Twin and Control decks are actually very interesting to play against. We can kill all of their threats, but they can counter all of ours until the late-game (when Remand and Mana Leak start doing nothing). However, Twin still ends up being pretty favorable. WUR Control is about even in game 1, depending on how many Lingering Souls you draw and at what time (if the game goes too late Sphinx's Revelation can draw enough burn spells to kill us), but it becomes more favorable postboard with Leyline of Sanctity.
Also, on the subject of discard that's not a bad topdeck, have we considered Mardu Charm? Yes, it's a very clunky Duress and Crackling Doom/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize is probably better, but it can also make us some blockers on the ground or kill something small.
I covered it in the primer. It is pretty versatile. I think I am going to try cutting the Murderous Cuts from my list and replacing them with 1 Mardu Charm and 2 Hero's Downfalls.
It should be noted that the decks that can properly make use of thoughtseize are those with a proactive strategy.
Thoughtseize -> Goyf is one of the best opening lines in Modern because you take away your opponent's likely only line to deal with the Goyf (or at the very least, make it harder to deal with)
If you don't have a good way to be proactive, thoughtseize is a LOT worse. I'd advocate throwing Thoughtseize in the sideboard for combo matchup, but I think with a reactive control deck, Thoughtseize isn't what you want in the main unless you have a way to suddenly win out of nowhere.
If 5-6 mana finishers are up for discussion, has anyone thought of Grave Titan?
So, with BBoV, I have noticed something; while he is invulnerable to *most* Modern removal, he's not invulnerable to *All* Modern removal; He is still killed by Roast, Combust, and the one mana 4 damage spell that came out of Dragons.
Sideboard cards at best, but still something to watch out for; he's not completely untouchable.
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It should be noted that the decks that can properly make use of thoughtseize are those with a proactive strategy.
Thoughtseize -> Goyf is one of the best opening lines in Modern because you take away your opponent's likely only line to deal with the Goyf (or at the very least, make it harder to deal with)
If you don't have a good way to be proactive, thoughtseize is a LOT worse. I'd advocate throwing Thoughtseize in the sideboard for combo matchup, but I think with a reactive control deck, Thoughtseize isn't what you want in the main unless you have a way to suddenly win out of nowhere.
I'd run Thoughtseize in the sideboard, but the hate-cards for specific combo decks are stronger there.
If 5-6 mana finishers are up for discussion, has anyone thought of Grave Titan?
I completely forgot about Grave Titan. I'll add him to the primer. He's like Elspeth Sun's Champion, but he makes stronger tokens at the cost of not being able to wrath and is stronger against fliers and burn spells at the cost of dying to Path to Exile and Terminate. I personally am not a fan of 6 mana finishers though, since 6 mana is significantly more than 5.
So, with BBoV, I have noticed something; while he is invulnerable to *most* Modern removal, he's not invulnerable to *All* Modern removal; He is still killed by Roast, Combust, and the one mana 4 damage spell that came out of Dragons.
Sideboard cards at best, but still something to watch out for; he's not completely untouchable.
No, he is not. He can also be chumped forever by decks like Elves and Affinity. Against those kinds of decks I try to win using Lingering Souls and Pack Rat.
Also, what do you guys think of the idea of using Magus of the Moon instead of Blood Moon in the sideboard? Most decks that we are bringing in Blood Moon against either don't have creature removal or would side out their removal and 2 extra damage per turn against a Moon-locked opponent is a somewhat relevant clock. It also dodges preemptive hate that Tron and Amulet players might bring in. Thoughts?
I like this deck idea.
I've previously tried making a decent Rakdos control deck, but while Delver and Twin match-ups where super easy, things like Merfolk, who can easily win with only playing half their hand so they are able to survive a board wipe, and Burn (also Tron, but that's the bane of every control deck pretty much) were just terrible and hardly went well.
Which lead me to thinking about making it Mardu instead, to gain access to life gain (which, besides draw, was the only mayor thing lacking to make the deck consistent).
The focus on 1:1 creature removal seems like an interesting route to take. Pack Rats seem great too, at least in any match-up with little to no creatures, so you don't just sit there with 8 removal spells and no targets, playing "draw-discard-go" control.
At least as long as Vedalken Shackles don't become too popular. >_<
I'd likely rework the manabase though. Is there a reason why you don't include any check or fast lands?
Seems quite painful the way it is.
Also not sure how great 3 Lawaclaw Reaches are, they really aren't the best and as the games should go longer I think you'll still see them often enough with 2 while reducing them in your opening hands.
And another thing that needs work imo is the sideboard.
It seems way too narrow with 4 different cards.
As great and fun as Slaughter Games is, it's also a bit slow and isn't necessarily light's out right away.
Some more general protection against combo and other things hostile to 1:1 removal seems nice. E.g. some Grafdigger's Cages. Or Rest in Peace, depending on if there are more decks running Kolaghan's Command or Collected Company I guess. ^^
Just to name a couple examples.
Perhaps also some board wipe in the side? I'm not sure how great a bunch of very colour-dependent removal is vs decks that just vomit their hand on the field in the first few turns.
Another issue would be Boggles and other shenanigans trying to slip through the net. Engineered Explosives sound quite attractive in the side against those and token heavy decks.
Just some spontaneous ideas.
But I like the look of the deck and will try to get something together on Modo I think.
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I wouldn't worry too much about Vedalken Shackles, it just seems bad in a meta where Kologhan's Command seems rampant (and this deck can also play it!)
I like this deck idea.
I've previously tried making a decent Rakdos control deck, but while Delver and Twin match-ups where super easy, things like Merfolk, who can easily win with only playing half their hand so they are able to survive a board wipe, and Burn (also Tron, but that's the bane of every control deck pretty much) were just terrible and hardly went well.
Which lead me to thinking about making it Mardu instead, to gain access to life gain (which, besides draw, was the only mayor thing lacking to make the deck consistent).
The focus on 1:1 creature removal seems like an interesting route to take. Pack Rats seem great too, at least in any match-up with little to no creatures, so you don't just sit there with 8 removal spells and no targets, playing "draw-discard-go" control.
Or even worse, an opponent taking Blood Baron of Vizkopa with Vedalken Shackles. It is a good thing that Shackles sees no play anymore.
I'd likely rework the manabase though. Is there a reason why you don't include any check or fast lands?
Seems quite painful the way it is.
It really isn't that painful. I am often playing a fetch for a shock (and since I don't want to use most of my removal on turn 1, it is often a tapped shock) and then playing a basic and occasionally fetching for tapped shocks. The manabase deals 5 damage at most. The reason why we don't include fastlands or checklands is because we don't have strict mana requirements and can run more basics instead.
Also not sure how great 3 Lawaclaw Reaches are, they really aren't the best and as the games should go longer I think you'll still see them often enough with 2 while reducing them in your opening hands.
They admittedly aren't great, but they don't really hurt when they are in the opening hand so it is just that they are usually there and occasionally do something extra.
And another thing that needs work imo is the sideboard.
It seems way too narrow with 4 different cards.
The sideboard does look that way, but these are all some of the best cards against our worst matchups.
As great and fun as Slaughter Games is, it's also a bit slow and isn't necessarily light's out right away.
While this is true, it is our one of our best chances against decks like Scapeshift, Ad Nauseum, Storm, and Amulet (assuming we survive that long).
Some more general protection against combo and other things hostile to 1:1 removal seems nice. E.g. some Grafdigger's Cages. Or Rest in Peace, depending on if there are more decks running Kolaghan's Command or Collected Company I guess. ^^
Just to name a couple examples.
We actually do pretty well against Collected Company decks. If there were more graveyard decks in the meta, I would play graveyard hate, but most graveyard-based decks are midrange and tempo decks that we are already strong against.
Perhaps also some board wipe in the side? I'm not sure how great a bunch of very colour-dependent removal is vs decks that just vomit their hand on the field in the first few turns.
Most decks that "vomit" their hands onto the battlefield only have a few creatures that do anything that matters and most of their creatures are mad useless by killing the engine creatures.
Another issue would be Boggles and other shenanigans trying to slip through the net. Engineered Explosives sound quite attractive in the side against those and token heavy decks.
I have considered it, but I don't think Tokens and Bogles see enough play for me to need to do that.
Just some spontaneous ideas.
But I like the look of the deck and will try to get something together on Modo I think.
Grave Titan is good, 10 power for 6 mana. It'd kinda be our Huntmaster of the Fells for 2 more mana and two more guaranteed power. Without the life gain.
As for Magus of the Moon, he might be a better option for the match up anyway, as (As you said) they don't run removal. Not to mention it's $18 vs $20.
I just ordered the few cards I was missing so while I don't have an exact decklist, I'll be able to post one in the next couple of days or so.
Grave Titan is good, 10 power for 6 mana. It'd kinda be our Huntsmaster of the Fells for 2 more mana and two more guaranteed power. Without the life gain.
While I really like Gideon, I am going to test the 4th Pack Rat and a singleton Grave Titan instead of him. Gideon was mostly in there since I can easily cast him against Splinter Twin without worrying about being comboeed out in response, but now that I am running Pack Rat instead of Sorin, that is less of a concern since I can cast Pack Rat and still leave up removal mana.
As for Magus of the Moon, he might be a better option for the match up anyway, as (As you said) they don't run removal. Not to mention it's $18 vs $20.
Where are you seeing Blood Moon for $20? The TCG mid is $47, even for the Chronicles Blood Moon.
I just ordered the few cards I was missing so while I don't have an exact decklist, I'll be able to post one in the next couple of days or so.
Great! Mine will take a little longer to arrive, but I should have it within a couple of weeks.
Grave Titan is good, 10 power for 6 mana. It'd kinda be our Huntsmaster of the Fells for 2 more mana and two more guaranteed power. Without the life gain.
As for Magus of the Moon, he might be a better option for the match up anyway, as (As you said) they don't run removal. Not to mention it's $18 vs $20.
Where are you seeing Blood Moon for $20? The TCG mid is $47, even for the Chronicles Blood Moon.
BM is $50, I just wasn't paying attention to what I was typing. My bad
Also, I feel that between the two Sorins, LoI is better than SV (For the deck).
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad:
Pros:
-Playing him and making a dude puts him out of Burn Range.
-His buff (-2) lasts for the entire game, allowing you to take advantage of it for Lingering Souls you haven't even drawn yet. Doubly so for Grave Titans, Elspeth, Sun's Champions, and even Blood Baron of Vizkopa (4 turn clock rather than 5).
-Life Linking dudes helps us stabilize.
Cons:
-Due to the rest of the deck, his ult is *probably* worthless.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor:
Pros:
-Dudes are bigger and evasive, allowing us to end the game faster.
-His +1 buffs everything by 1/0 and grants lifelink
-His ult lets us save mana/spells for multiple threats
Cons:
-Tokens put him in Bolt (heck, Shock) range.
- his buff only lasts a single turn.
- +1 is worthless on an empty board.
- Our primary win Cons either have lifelink (BBoV) or ends the game faster than it is required (Demigod), so his +1 is worse on the curve.
I just feel that where the abilities lie makes SV worse in our deck than LoI. Taking out the Ult (Which you should never factor into a Planeswalker evaluation anyway), being beefier while advancing the board state seems better than making a dude and getting bolted.
Also, if Demigod of Revenge works out, I'm totally renaming this deck to "Demigod Control".
@ Val, I was just commenting on the fact that cards usually only take a couple days to arrive in the mail. Seems like earlier in the thread (like a week ago in actual time) you mentioned ordering them, and you're still saying they're a couple weeks away! Pony Express?
And I agree re: Sorin, assuming he finds his way into the main deck again. I kept staring at Lord vs Solemn, wondering if I was missing something. I eventually concluded it was just an availability thing, but since they do roughly the same thing, I let it go.
I've played around with a few variations on this, but I've found myself really preferring having access to Phyrexian Arena. Since Blood Baron, Wurmcoil and Sorin grant lifelink, the lifeloss doesn't matter too much unless you're against burn (in which case, it gets boarded out). The deck does an alright job at topdecking what it needs to survive, but the kind of digging power of draw 2 every turn is pretty nice and I just like having it as a personal preference. I won't say that a list with Arena is better than one without, its just a matter of being more comfortable with card draw than without it.
One card I've been considering for lists without any black card draw is the original Lilliana Vess. A 5 mana walker that doesn't win the game on its own is rather suspect for most decks, but at the same time it offers a way for a deck like this to find one of its win conditions with a -2 activation (and can be used twice if you're not under any duress). The non Phyrexian list I tried just seemed to run into the issue of stabilizing but having no way to kill the opponent outside of burning them out until you found a Blood Baron or something else, which I would think might be able to deal with that weakness.
Grave Titan is good, 10 power for 6 mana. It'd kinda be our Huntsmaster of the Fells for 2 more mana and two more guaranteed power. Without the life gain.
As for Magus of the Moon, he might be a better option for the match up anyway, as (As you said) they don't run removal. Not to mention it's $18 vs $20.
Where are you seeing Blood Moon for $20? The TCG mid is $47, even for the Chronicles Blood Moon.
BM is $50, I just wasn't paying attention to what I was typing. My bad
Aw, that's too bad, I was hoping that you found the legendary land that is immune to price spikes.
Also, I feel that between the two Sorins, LoI is better than SV (For the deck).
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad:
Pros:
-Playing him and making a dude puts him out of Burn Range.
-His buff (-2) lasts for the entire game, allowing you to take advantage of it for Lingering Souls you haven't even drawn yet. Doubly so for Grave Titans, Elspeth, Sun's Champions, and even Blood Baron of Vizkopa (4 turn clock rather than 5).
-Life Linking dudes helps us stabilize.
Cons:
-Due to the rest of the deck, his ult is *probably* worthless.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor:
Pros:
-Dudes are bigger and evasive, allowing us to end the game faster.
-His +1 buffs everything by 1/0 and grants lifelink
-His ult lets us save mana/spells for multiple threats
Cons:
-Tokens put him in Bolt (heck, Shock) range.
- his buff only lasts a single turn.
- +1 is worthless on an empty board.
- Our primary win Cons either have lifelink (BBoV) or ends the game faster than it is required (Demigod), so his +1 is worse on the curve.
I just feel that where the abilities lie makes SV worse in our deck than LoI. Taking out the Ult (Which you should never factor into a Planeswalker evaluation anyway), being beefier while advancing the board state seems better than making a dude and getting bolted.
I'd actually say that Elsepth is probably the best 4 mana planeswalker for us. However, I am not playing any right now since I cut them for Pack Rat.
Also, if Demigod of Revenge works out, I'm totally renaming this deck to "Demigod Control".
@ Val, I was just commenting on the fact that cards usually only take a couple days to arrive in the mail. Seems like earlier in the thread (like a week ago in actual time) you mentioned ordering them, and you're still saying they're a couple weeks away!
It was only 5 days ago. Also, Ebay is annoyingly slow, but it is cheaper than everywhere else.
Pony Express?
Let's just go with that as the excuse. It is better than anything I've got.
And I agree re: Sorin, assuming he finds his way into the main deck again. I kept staring at Lord vs Solemn, wondering if I was missing something. I eventually concluded it was just an availability thing, but since they do roughly the same thing, I let it go.
You guys have convinced me, if a 4-mana planeswalker that isn't Elspeth gets into the maindeck again, it will be Lord of Innistrad.
I've played around with a few variations on this, but I've found myself really preferring having access to Phyrexian Arena. Since Blood Baron, Wurmcoil and Sorin grant lifelink, the lifeloss doesn't matter too much unless you're against burn (in which case, it gets boarded out). The deck does an alright job at topdecking what it needs to survive, but the kind of digging power of draw 2 every turn is pretty nice and I just like having it as a personal preference. I won't say that a list with Arena is better than one without, its just a matter of being more comfortable with card draw than without it.
Phyrexian Arena is a sweet card that I have always liked. I just don't think that it is necessary. We can draw enough removal naturally that it just seems like we would be spending time on deploying it unnecessarily. However, if it is working for you, go ahead.
One card I've been considering for lists without any black card draw is the original Lilliana Vess. A 5 mana walker that doesn't win the game on its own is rather suspect for most decks, but at the same time it offers a way for a deck like this to find one of its win conditions with a -2 activation (and can be used twice if you're not under any duress). The non Phyrexian list I tried just seemed to run into the issue of stabilizing but having no way to kill the opponent outside of burning them out until you found a Blood Baron or something else, which I would think might be able to deal with that weakness.
I haven't had that problem. We are still running 12 win-cons (and that isn't even counting Lavaclaw Reaches). Are you counting Lingering Souls as a win-con? While it could be faster, it definitely is a relevant attacker. Also, I think that Gideon Jura is just better than Liliana Vess in this deck. Instead of fetching a threat, he is a threat. Instead of fetching removal, he is removal. Instead of finding a stabilizer, he is a stabilizer.
@ Val, I concur that Elspeth is probably better than both Sorins. However, I can't help but giggle maniacally when I think about casting a Lingering Souls on turn 3, making a Lord of Innistrad emblem on turn four, and then dropping/making a couple Pack Rats on turn five. Obviously turns 1 and 2 you're killing things.
Shriekmaw feels like it could be perfect in a deck like this. It gives you you removal, while also allowing you transition it into a threat later. I don't think that the tar getting restriction matters that much when the deck is packed with so many other ways to remove things.
Shriekmaw feels like it could be perfect in a deck like this. It gives you you removal, while also allowing you transition it into a threat later. I don't think that the tar getting restriction matters that much when the deck is packed with so many other ways to remove things.
I thought about it, but being its sorcery-speed and color/type restrictions make it basically dead against Affinity and bad against Twin, Grixis, Amulet, and BGx, so I am not a fan. If the meta shifted, it might be viable, but otherwise it isn't. It's a nice idea though.
Also, on the subject of discard that's not a bad topdeck, have we considered Mardu Charm? Yes, it's a very clunky Duress and Crackling Doom/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize is probably better, but it can also make us some blockers on the ground or kill something small.
GWSelvala and the Return to HumanityGW
UWDragonlord Ojutai, Control's Elder DragonUW
UBGTasigur, the God-Pharaoh's Gift to EDHUBG
UBRNicol Bolas and his Super
friendsPawnsUBRModern
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The worst card to see is Ugin or Karn.
Level 2 in progress...
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"Above the waves you may be mighty indeed, but down here you belong to me."
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"The essence of every world, every spell, and every thought is power. Nothing else matters, because nothing else exists."
-Nicol Bolas
Pack Rat is sweet. Sorin, while ok on his own, was only great with Gideon and Lingering Souls. Otherwise he is just a 3/2 flier with lifelink. Pack Rat seems better so far, but keep in mind that these are only test games for now and that I still need to do a lot more testing to be sure.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Which noncreature, nonplaneswalker, nonlands cards are we worried about? The only ones that I can think of are Hive Mind, Ad Nauseum, Pyromancer Ascension, Through the Breach, Goryo's Vengeance, Scapeshift, Amulet of Vigor, and Cranial Plating. Cranial Plating only sees play in decks that are a good matchup for us, Goryo's Vengeance and Through the Breach only see play in a relatively fragile an inconsistent combo deck that can easily be hated out, and my sideboard easily stops Storm and Ad Nauseum (and hurts Scapeshift a lot). So that basically means that I'd be running discard just to stop Amulet and Bogles, which doesn't seem worth it.
You're right, Inquisition and Thoughtseize are like a Modern version of Force of Will. But to continue the analogy, Force of Will is traditionally only good against Combo decks. There isn't enough noncreature combo in Modern to make discard better than removal, since the opponent has to spend mana and time casting creatures that we are just going to remove. Discard also is only an answer to future threats and is a horrible topdeck. Removal can kill most threats in Modern as soon as they hit play. Very few threats (just Wurmcoil Engine, Gladecover Scout, Slippery Bogle, and Geist of Saint Traft) have protection that we have to worry about and the ETB effects usually aren't that strong against us (other than Eternal Witness and Snapcaster Mage).
I think that in this deck it can actually work really well. Our worst matchups are combo decks like Storm, Amulet Bloom, and Scapeshift, and all of those decks are relatively weak to Slaughter Games (assuming that your Amulet Bloom opponent doesn't Hive Mind kill you on turn 2 or 3). Sure, it isn't great against Tron, but it is strong against many of our other problematic matchups.
I like Gideon a lot. While he is often just a 5 mana 6/6 that can't be dealt damage, he also allows you to tap low against Splinter Twin without worrying about being comboed out. He is very strong against decks like BGx and Grixis, since he is not only a massive threat in the lategame but can also kill creatures if you are drawing poorly (like drawing Bolts against Goyfs).
We don't really need any fuel for Pack Rat. Even discarding every card we draw each turn to it is fine because if it is still in play that means that your opponent is soon going to be dead.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
If you decide to take it, good luck! Twin and Control decks are actually very interesting to play against. We can kill all of their threats, but they can counter all of ours until the late-game (when Remand and Mana Leak start doing nothing). However, Twin still ends up being pretty favorable. WUR Control is about even in game 1, depending on how many Lingering Souls you draw and at what time (if the game goes too late Sphinx's Revelation can draw enough burn spells to kill us), but it becomes more favorable postboard with Leyline of Sanctity.
I covered it in the primer. It is pretty versatile. I think I am going to try cutting the Murderous Cuts from my list and replacing them with 1 Mardu Charm and 2 Hero's Downfalls.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Thoughtseize -> Goyf is one of the best opening lines in Modern because you take away your opponent's likely only line to deal with the Goyf (or at the very least, make it harder to deal with)
If you don't have a good way to be proactive, thoughtseize is a LOT worse. I'd advocate throwing Thoughtseize in the sideboard for combo matchup, but I think with a reactive control deck, Thoughtseize isn't what you want in the main unless you have a way to suddenly win out of nowhere.
If 5-6 mana finishers are up for discussion, has anyone thought of Grave Titan?
Sideboard cards at best, but still something to watch out for; he's not completely untouchable.
I'd run Thoughtseize in the sideboard, but the hate-cards for specific combo decks are stronger there.
I completely forgot about Grave Titan. I'll add him to the primer. He's like Elspeth Sun's Champion, but he makes stronger tokens at the cost of not being able to wrath and is stronger against fliers and burn spells at the cost of dying to Path to Exile and Terminate. I personally am not a fan of 6 mana finishers though, since 6 mana is significantly more than 5.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
No, he is not. He can also be chumped forever by decks like Elves and Affinity. Against those kinds of decks I try to win using Lingering Souls and Pack Rat.
Also, what do you guys think of the idea of using Magus of the Moon instead of Blood Moon in the sideboard? Most decks that we are bringing in Blood Moon against either don't have creature removal or would side out their removal and 2 extra damage per turn against a Moon-locked opponent is a somewhat relevant clock. It also dodges preemptive hate that Tron and Amulet players might bring in. Thoughts?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I've previously tried making a decent Rakdos control deck, but while Delver and Twin match-ups where super easy, things like Merfolk, who can easily win with only playing half their hand so they are able to survive a board wipe, and Burn (also Tron, but that's the bane of every control deck pretty much) were just terrible and hardly went well.
Which lead me to thinking about making it Mardu instead, to gain access to life gain (which, besides draw, was the only mayor thing lacking to make the deck consistent).
The focus on 1:1 creature removal seems like an interesting route to take.
Pack Rats seem great too, at least in any match-up with little to no creatures, so you don't just sit there with 8 removal spells and no targets, playing "draw-discard-go" control.
At least as long as Vedalken Shackles don't become too popular. >_<
I'd likely rework the manabase though. Is there a reason why you don't include any check or fast lands?
Seems quite painful the way it is.
Also not sure how great 3 Lawaclaw Reaches are, they really aren't the best and as the games should go longer I think you'll still see them often enough with 2 while reducing them in your opening hands.
And another thing that needs work imo is the sideboard.
It seems way too narrow with 4 different cards.
As great and fun as Slaughter Games is, it's also a bit slow and isn't necessarily light's out right away.
Some more general protection against combo and other things hostile to 1:1 removal seems nice. E.g. some Grafdigger's Cages. Or Rest in Peace, depending on if there are more decks running Kolaghan's Command or Collected Company I guess. ^^
Just to name a couple examples.
Perhaps also some board wipe in the side? I'm not sure how great a bunch of very colour-dependent removal is vs decks that just vomit their hand on the field in the first few turns.
Another issue would be Boggles and other shenanigans trying to slip through the net. Engineered Explosives sound quite attractive in the side against those and token heavy decks.
Just some spontaneous ideas.
But I like the look of the deck and will try to get something together on Modo I think.
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
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Exactly.
Or even worse, an opponent taking Blood Baron of Vizkopa with Vedalken Shackles. It is a good thing that Shackles sees no play anymore.
It really isn't that painful. I am often playing a fetch for a shock (and since I don't want to use most of my removal on turn 1, it is often a tapped shock) and then playing a basic and occasionally fetching for tapped shocks. The manabase deals 5 damage at most. The reason why we don't include fastlands or checklands is because we don't have strict mana requirements and can run more basics instead.
They admittedly aren't great, but they don't really hurt when they are in the opening hand so it is just that they are usually there and occasionally do something extra.
The sideboard does look that way, but these are all some of the best cards against our worst matchups.
While this is true, it is our one of our best chances against decks like Scapeshift, Ad Nauseum, Storm, and Amulet (assuming we survive that long).
We actually do pretty well against Collected Company decks. If there were more graveyard decks in the meta, I would play graveyard hate, but most graveyard-based decks are midrange and tempo decks that we are already strong against.
Most decks that "vomit" their hands onto the battlefield only have a few creatures that do anything that matters and most of their creatures are mad useless by killing the engine creatures.
I have considered it, but I don't think Tokens and Bogles see enough play for me to need to do that.
Good luck!
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
As for Magus of the Moon, he might be a better option for the match up anyway, as (As you said) they don't run removal. Not to mention it's $18 vs $20.
I just ordered the few cards I was missing so while I don't have an exact decklist, I'll be able to post one in the next couple of days or so.
While I really like Gideon, I am going to test the 4th Pack Rat and a singleton Grave Titan instead of him. Gideon was mostly in there since I can easily cast him against Splinter Twin without worrying about being comboeed out in response, but now that I am running Pack Rat instead of Sorin, that is less of a concern since I can cast Pack Rat and still leave up removal mana.
Where are you seeing Blood Moon for $20? The TCG mid is $47, even for the Chronicles Blood Moon.
Great! Mine will take a little longer to arrive, but I should have it within a couple of weeks.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I am not sure if this was directed at me, but if it was, what are you talking about?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
BM is $50, I just wasn't paying attention to what I was typing. My bad
Also, I feel that between the two Sorins, LoI is better than SV (For the deck).
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad:
Pros:
-Playing him and making a dude puts him out of Burn Range.
-His buff (-2) lasts for the entire game, allowing you to take advantage of it for Lingering Souls you haven't even drawn yet. Doubly so for Grave Titans, Elspeth, Sun's Champions, and even Blood Baron of Vizkopa (4 turn clock rather than 5).
-Life Linking dudes helps us stabilize.
Cons:
-Due to the rest of the deck, his ult is *probably* worthless.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor:
Pros:
-Dudes are bigger and evasive, allowing us to end the game faster.
-His +1 buffs everything by 1/0 and grants lifelink
-His ult lets us save mana/spells for multiple threats
Cons:
-Tokens put him in Bolt (heck, Shock) range.
- his buff only lasts a single turn.
- +1 is worthless on an empty board.
- Our primary win Cons either have lifelink (BBoV) or ends the game faster than it is required (Demigod), so his +1 is worse on the curve.
I just feel that where the abilities lie makes SV worse in our deck than LoI. Taking out the Ult (Which you should never factor into a Planeswalker evaluation anyway), being beefier while advancing the board state seems better than making a dude and getting bolted.
Also, if Demigod of Revenge works out, I'm totally renaming this deck to "Demigod Control".
And I agree re: Sorin, assuming he finds his way into the main deck again. I kept staring at Lord vs Solemn, wondering if I was missing something. I eventually concluded it was just an availability thing, but since they do roughly the same thing, I let it go.
One card I've been considering for lists without any black card draw is the original Lilliana Vess. A 5 mana walker that doesn't win the game on its own is rather suspect for most decks, but at the same time it offers a way for a deck like this to find one of its win conditions with a -2 activation (and can be used twice if you're not under any duress). The non Phyrexian list I tried just seemed to run into the issue of stabilizing but having no way to kill the opponent outside of burning them out until you found a Blood Baron or something else, which I would think might be able to deal with that weakness.
Aw, that's too bad, I was hoping that you found the legendary land that is immune to price spikes.
I'd actually say that Elsepth is probably the best 4 mana planeswalker for us. However, I am not playing any right now since I cut them for Pack Rat.
No one has any respect for Shadow the Hedgehog.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
It was only 5 days ago. Also, Ebay is annoyingly slow, but it is cheaper than everywhere else.
Let's just go with that as the excuse. It is better than anything I've got.
You guys have convinced me, if a 4-mana planeswalker that isn't Elspeth gets into the maindeck again, it will be Lord of Innistrad.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Phyrexian Arena is a sweet card that I have always liked. I just don't think that it is necessary. We can draw enough removal naturally that it just seems like we would be spending time on deploying it unnecessarily. However, if it is working for you, go ahead.
I haven't had that problem. We are still running 12 win-cons (and that isn't even counting Lavaclaw Reaches). Are you counting Lingering Souls as a win-con? While it could be faster, it definitely is a relevant attacker. Also, I think that Gideon Jura is just better than Liliana Vess in this deck. Instead of fetching a threat, he is a threat. Instead of fetching removal, he is removal. Instead of finding a stabilizer, he is a stabilizer.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I thought about it, but being its sorcery-speed and color/type restrictions make it basically dead against Affinity and bad against Twin, Grixis, Amulet, and BGx, so I am not a fan. If the meta shifted, it might be viable, but otherwise it isn't. It's a nice idea though.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.