It's kind of weird that I put this deck to test on cockatrice when Day's Undoing where spoiled and kind of forget it until some days ago when I played it again with my friend and now I came here and see a threat about it. Nice to see that I'm not the only one who thinks that it could work well. I'm playing the UR version, something like this:
I went 2-1 in a small modern event last night with this deck. My mana base is a total wreck and totally based on my budget and card availability. I didn't include it because of this but having the right mana was only an issue once and resulted in mulling to 4. In the limited testing I have done, I've found days undoing to be decent. But not the best card ever. I have noticed that I tend to pitch them to dispruting shoal a lot. My night went as follows.
Match 1: Grixis Twin 2-0
I'm pretty sure this guy is either really unlucky, or the worst twin player ever. I didn't even know he was on twin until I asked after the match was over. I played this like it was Grixis control and traded one for one with bolts and counters until I could cast days undoing with zero cards in hand and win. Game 2 is still did not see any combo pieces but I struggled with keeping threats on the board. Eventually I got a flipped delver to stick and won an attrition game.
Match 2: GU infect 1-2
Game 1 I blow him out with 2 flipped delvers on turn 3 and he never catches up. Game 2 he lands a spellskite on turn 2 and I have a shoal and nothing worth 2 in hand. I lose to spellskite protection. Game 3 we trade back and forth for a few turns them he goes for the kill on turn 4. He as the perfect combination of spells and counters to do exactly lethal through my removal.
This is only match I sided out days undoing.
Match 3: Abzan Company 2-1
Game 1 he turn 4 coco's into the combo and gains infinite life. Game 2 I don't see much and steamroll him. Game 3 is long and grindy. The key play was pitching a days undoing to disrupting shoal to counter a kitchen finks. Then I was just able to stay ahead and make a buttload of pyromancer tokens.
Also some thoughts on [card]abbot of keral keep[\card]. I ran 2 because the week before I went 0-4 with the full set and lost repeatedly with 2+ copies in my hand. After playing a bit more with the card I think it might be one of the best cards in the deck. It's just pure value if it resolves and it can get really big really fast.
Sorry if this post sounds really disjointed. I typed it up over the course of a day on my Ipad.
Went 6-3 at a WMCQ in Toronto yesterday and feel good about my losses. Learned more about the deck and had a great time. Will get a report up somewhere in the next week.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
did any of the problems include facing Twin Exarch? I've found that if you don't have that crucial vapor snag or snapback its GG. I've already decided to add a rending volley to the sideboard, and I am considering possibly adding another and taking out a flashfreeze
Stellar logic. All decks that will ever be tier 1 or 2 have already been discovered. Might as well lock up the forum here and stop brewing everyone. Format solved.
did any of the problems include facing Twin Exarch? I've found that if you don't have that crucial vapor snag or snapback its GG. I've already decided to add a rending volley to the sideboard, and I am considering possibly adding another and taking out a flashfreeze
Actually no. I lost one match to Twin in game 3, but I made a big mistake and the loss had nothing to do with the combo. More on that later
My other losses were to Jeskai Control and Affinity.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
did any of the problems include facing Twin Exarch? I've found that if you don't have that crucial vapor snag or snapback its GG. I've already decided to add a rending volley to the sideboard, and I am considering possibly adding another and taking out a flashfreeze
Actually no. I lost one match to Twin in game 3, but I made a big mistake and the loss had nothing to do with the combo. More on that later
My other losses were to Jeskai Control and Affinity.
I haven't played too much Jeskai control but U/W control/midrange is annoying as hell. Yesterday I played one that had the perfect draw every single time. I started with 2 delvers he responds with 2 path to exiles. I start amassing elemental tokens, he supreme verdict. And that card can't even be countered.
Also on another note, I have been testing this deck with 3 hooting mandrills and one simic charm(saving up to get tarmogoyfs right now) and I think it actually plays better than the regular UR version. While hooting mandrills and vapor snag don't mix very well, he still passes the bolt test, which I feel this deck definitely needs one of. Also my favorite part about green is the sideboarding that opens up as a result. Again not saying its better than the tarmogoyf version, but I think stronger than UR.
Stellar logic. All decks that will ever be tier 1 or 2 have already been discovered. Might as well lock up the forum here and stop brewing everyone. Format solved.
did any of the problems include facing Twin Exarch? I've found that if you don't have that crucial vapor snag or snapback its GG. I've already decided to add a rending volley to the sideboard, and I am considering possibly adding another and taking out a flashfreeze
Actually no. I lost one match to Twin in game 3, but I made a big mistake and the loss had nothing to do with the combo. More on that later
My other losses were to Jeskai Control and Affinity.
I haven't played too much Jeskai control but U/W control/midrange is annoying as hell. Yesterday I played one that had the perfect draw every single time. I started with 2 delvers he responds with 2 path to exiles. I start amassing elemental tokens, he supreme verdict. And that card can't even be countered.
Also on another note, I have been testing this deck with 3 hooting mandrills and one simic charm(saving up to get tarmogoyfs right now) and I think it actually plays better than the regular UR version. While hooting mandrills and vapor snag don't mix very well, he still passes the bolt test, which I feel this deck definitely needs one of. Also my favorite part about green is the sideboarding that opens up as a result. Again not saying its better than the tarmogoyf version, but I think stronger than UR.
That sounds fine to me. I have a friend who plays UW Control and it tested really well. I love when they Path me, especially early, since it accelerates me into superb Undoings and thins the deck for them. DU just wrecks that deck.
Interesting thoughts on Goyfless green. Post more about it when you get the chance to do additional testing!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
That sounds fine to me. I have a friend who plays UW Control and it tested really well. I love when they Path me, especially early, since it accelerates me into superb Undoings and thins the deck for them. DU just wrecks that deck.
Interesting thoughts on Goyfless green. Post more about it when you get the chance to do additional testing!
My analysis of the RUG Mandrills iGrow vs UR iGrow, has to start with the issues I encountered with the one decks you mentioned.
I completely agree with the thoughts on path to exile the extra land speeds up our deck and at the cost of 1 delver it really is fine. I was just super salty about that loss because I already had 3 land in my starting hand, and then drew into 2 more after the exiles. Affinity is the one deck that consistently causes problems, no matter what I sideboard against I always had problems. Hurkyl's recall does not really help usually because their hand is already non-existent and they can just play everything again. This helps prevent their equipped creatures from swinging out, but does not help get rid of them. I then thought smash to smithereens might not be a bad play, but when comparing it to the versatility of destructive revelry I wanted more.
So I decided to give RUG a test with hooting mandrills and see how it went. Right now I am using UR with Goblin Guide, so I was going in with the mentality that it would be much slower. However while the early game 1 drop was missed, I found myself loving the additional green anytime after turn 2. The 3 decks in particular I saw improvements in facing were Affinity, Burn, and Splinter Twin.
1) Destructive Revelry = much better answer to multiple problems. It provides a more solid answer to artifacts like smash to smithereens even with the burn. However unlike Hurkyl's recall and smash to smithereens, this card can also be used to get rid of enchantments and gives us that extra 2 damage for a bit of burn. This provides yet another answer to splinter twin, a deck UR version does not have a true answer to. While we can counter a deceiver exarch or pestermite we simply do not have a way in the UR to get rid of turn 4 splinter twin, which is a huge liability for me at least due to the decent amount of splinter decks in my area. It may sound trivial, but a multi purpose card like this was a big help in a few different scenarios.
2) I still have 1 feed the clan in my sideboard and for burn this absolutely hoses them. Burn isn't the hardest deck to beat in the world, but it is still burn. When it catches fire there is little you can do slow it down without your own perfect hand. Feed the clan gives you that extra time and gives you a chance to right the ship, so to speak. Also not to forget hooting mandrills did not die to anything short of a terminate, which was FANTASTIC. In UR seeing all of my cards get their clocks cleaned by lightning bolts, pyroclasms, anger of the gods was nothing short of enraging/depressing. But I finally had my tank out and about. Not to mention the lone simic charm proved to be awesome, possibly even worth of running 2+. It gives us another vapor snag, gives us some extra damage to throw on delver or mandrills to push into a possible win or outgrow their blockers, or gives us a shot at surviving a barrage of burn spells.
It was for these reasons alone I find that splashing green, even while being goyfless, was completely worth it. Not to say it is a deck that can beat anyone, because it still does have problems with Affinity's speed, power, and overall synergy. But it certainly shores up some weaknesses people with the UR version might have had. Or maybe I just suck at magic and other people don't have those issues lol
Stellar logic. All decks that will ever be tier 1 or 2 have already been discovered. Might as well lock up the forum here and stop brewing everyone. Format solved.
Small get together at my LGS so I decided to bring my RUG(goyfless) iGrow deck and see how it did against some competitive decks. It was only about 6 of us so I played 2 matches before I bounced.
1st Opponent - UW Control
1st game - 0-0 - I win the roll so I choose the play. I throw out a turn 1 delver, he flips turn 2 only to get exiled so I bring out a 3rd land(tapped but none the less helped my base) and play young pyromancer. Get a few tokens turn 3 & 4 only to get hit by supreme verdicted on my turn. He then plays sphinx's tutelage and hedron crab and mills me. Then he plays ensnaring bridge to ensure I can't do anything. He gets rid of all the good stuff, and I am stuck with dead draws. He mills me out ftw.
side out -> 4 vapor snag, 4 disrupting shoal
main in -> 4 forked bolt, 3 blood moon, destructive revely
2nd game - 0-1 - I take the play again. He plays leyline of sanctity turn 1 which makes my sideboard useless but I still don't sweat it with my starting hand. I got turn 1 delver, turn 3 delver flips, I play monastery swiftspear plus a serum visions. I swing for 5. Turn 4 he plays another land does and plays nothing. Turn 5 I play young pyromancer and he gets mana leaked. I swing for 4 and he is down to 10 (used 1 fetchy). Turn 6 he plays the crab again. Turn 7 I blood moon, he gets screwed with only 1 basic plains. Turn 8 he does nada, Turn 9 I fork bolt it, use gitaxian probe and hit him for 6, he moves down to 4. Next turn I swing for lethal.
kept the same deck for 3rd game.
3rd - 1-1 - He is on the play, turn 1 plays a land. Turn 1 I scalding tarn into an steam vents, then I play a delver. Turn 2 he plays a crab. Turn 2 misty rainforest into breeding pool, delver flips, I play 1 forked bolt and a serum visions. Swing for 3 he goes down to 17. Turn 3 he does nothing. I play a forest and another delver. He exiles my flipped insect and I then play hooting mandrills. Next turn my delver flips and I beat his face in with my insect and monkey combo.
So I won 2-1 against UW, I really noticed the strength of this matchup was the power of the board. Blood moon in particular. Overall the deck played pretty fast (as a tempo deck should) and I didn't really feel pressured after that 1st game.
2nd Opponent - RG Tron
This matchup was a joke I don't even really need to break it down because it ended so fast.
Game 1 - 0-0 - I win the roll again and choose to go 1st. I monastery swiftspear early, he tries to race into his urza lands, but I disrupting shoal his expedition map with a vapor snag which sets him behind. I get out a early turn 3 hooting mandrill with a combination of 2 fetch lands, my disrupting shoal, 2 gitaxian probes I paid 4 life for, and my breeding pool I paid 2 life for as well. It was 12-19 just because I was burning through life, however that was the last time. Turn 5 I play another swifspear and I proceed to combo them with a lightning bolt along with mandrills and hit him for 11 that turn (12-9), I clean up next turn.
side in -> 4 forked bolt, 3 blood moon, 1 negate
main out -> 4 disrupting shoal, vapor snag
Game 2 1-0 - He starts off turn 1 with land. More or less the same thing happens as last game, however this time I was just turning wide with my Young Pyromancer. He did manage to play Ugin on turn 5, however I negate it along with his chances of winning.
Overall I was really happy with the deck's performance. I mean this was not a very competitive setting, just a casual thing, but I was still happy to see it work out. Like I said he does not replace goyf, but hooting mandrills proved to be effective none the less.
Stellar logic. All decks that will ever be tier 1 or 2 have already been discovered. Might as well lock up the forum here and stop brewing everyone. Format solved.
1) Destructive Revelry = much better answer to multiple problems. It provides a more solid answer to artifacts like smash to smithereens even with the burn. However unlike Hurkyl's recall and smash to smithereens, this card can also be used to get rid of enchantments and gives us that extra 2 damage for a bit of burn. This provides yet another answer to splinter twin, a deck UR version does not have a true answer to. While we can counter a deceiver exarch or pestermite we simply do not have a way in the UR to get rid of turn 4 splinter twin, which is a huge liability for me at least due to the decent amount of splinter decks in my area. It may sound trivial, but a multi purpose card like this was a big help in a few different scenarios.
This card is extremely powerful but I don't think it's correct to bring it in against Twin. That matchup is already hilariously easy with all our Undoings, Shoals, and Snag effects, and we don't want to dilute those plans.
Going forward, I'm trying a pair of Mandrills over the Sleights.
Edit -- the article also covers hoser cards like Feed the Clan and Hurkyl's Recall (I say not to run them). The key cards against Affinity are Electrickery and Snapcaster Mage. If you still lose to them, though, and somehow have space for hoser cards, Recall is much stronger than other options, even Ancient Grudge; it absolutely dismantles the deck.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Right now I have been changing up my sideboard. I just took out 2 sleight of hands for 2 spell snare (at your advice :p). In my board I cut 2 flashfreeze, 2 forked bolt (didn't need 4 of the), and the 2 snares that got mainboarded. I added in 1 Roast due to the massive uptick in siege rhinos in my area. I also added 2 send to sleep and 1 more electrickery. I have 2 slots open and was looking for a bit of advice. Worst case scenario I throw flashfreeze back in, but I was thinking about giving 2 Huntmaster of the Fells a try even though they are a little more grindy. I know tempo is our goal and we don't want to stray, but I was curious what you think his impact would be. BTW I cannot afford Snapcaster mage even though I wish I could play him, but I do have a couple of spellskites lying around which could prove to do an ok job absorbing removal.
Stellar logic. All decks that will ever be tier 1 or 2 have already been discovered. Might as well lock up the forum here and stop brewing everyone. Format solved.
I really wanted to play my Japanese foil Huntmasters and tried super hard to fit them into the deck. Snapcaster is just better here, though. Play 2-3. I would also cut the Moons since they force you into Forest which is a horrible card for this deck. Also 3 mana is a lot for a card that doesn't draw you 7 more cards.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Just some small notes: I don't own Sulfur Falls, so I couldn't play 2 instead of 2 Shivan Reefs. Also, the SB wasn't ideal at all. I wanted to try some cards (like Lavamancer), so don't take this SB if you want to play straight UR (if you have Snappies, play some copies in the SB, along some number of burn spells).
Round 1 against Merfolk 2-0
Game 1 I opened with double Delver, killed him on turn 4 via Delver beats and Bolts.
Game 2 he mulled to 5, so not that relevant. He died again to Delver beats and a Pyromancer which went crazy.
Round 2 against Grixis Delver Control 2-1 (a hybrid between Control and Delver, but without Pyromancers)
Game 1 a combination of Delver, Swiftspear and Pyromancer got him pretty low, before he could clear the board. One DU (Day's Undoing) later, he was dead. I drew the nuts with triple Swiftspear, Bolt, Sleight, Snag and land, while I had 5 lands in play.
Game 2 Pyro went crazy, but a sweeper (the -4-4 one for 4) cleared the board. I got him down to 4, but didn't drew enough burn to finish him off and I died to Angler + Delver. I could have won the game, if I wouldn't have made a mistake with Pyro (not attacking into a Angler with 4 tokens, which would have been enough to kill him later).
Game 3 went to time, since game 2 was super grindy. He was on 17 on my turn 1 of extra turns. I swing for 5 (Abbot + Delver), put him down to 12. He killed my Abbot in his turn, I untapped swing with Delver, cast Undoing (he went down to 9). I got a kinda crap hand, but with Swiftspear, Sleight and Forked Bolt. I untapped drew a blank, casted Swiftspear (Leak), attacked with Delver, but him down to 4 (he shocked in his turn). I casted Forked Bolt, he went down to 2. Sleight of Hands, flip first card, Land, second card, Forked Bolt. Welp, I guess I won this game.
Round 3 against Jeskai Control 0-2
Game 1 I had a good card, but he had several Bolts, Helixes and Electrolyze to deal with my board. I had to cast 2 Undoing, to get a shot of winning, but he drew better than me (I flooded horrible out that game).
Game 2 I kept a great hand, but it needed another land (Dispel, 2x Pyro, GP, Visions, 2 lands), to play around Bolts. I didn't drew the land for 5 turns and died to Colonnade and Resto Angel.
Round 4 against Hangerback Little Kid Junk 2-0
Game 1 2 Pyromancers was more than enough to win that one.
Game 2 I had a Delver draw, which dealt some damage before he got Pathed. After several turns, my board was like Delver (unflipped), Pyro + several tokens, Swiftspear and Abbot (+ lands), while he head 2 Voices, Hangerback and Rhino. I was tapped out. He slammed down a chalice on 2, which I Shoaled (exile Send to Sleep). Next turn he made the same play, but I didn't had a counter for it. However, I drew better than him and I was able to power through his board thanks to a timely Send to Sleep. It helped, that he forgot the Chalice trigger for Forked Bolt, which killed 2 tokens.
Thoughts: Abbot was crazy. I was always happy drawing one, since he is like Dark Confidant in this build. Pyromancer was as good as always, Swiftspear was better than Delver most of the times (exception was against Junk). Shoal was meh most of the times, same with Leak. I really missed Faithless Looting and something which can dodge Bolt (which doesn't exist the UR colours). Send to Sleep was crazy (best SB card). Guys, pls play this card more, it is freaking insane in this deck.
If I would play UR D-Day again, I would play something like this:
Some reasons: if you are straight UR, you want some numbers of Dispel MD for Bolts and co, since your creatures are more valuable to those spells than in the RUG version. SB should be changed accordingly to your meta/expected meta, but always run some numbers of Send to Sleep. It is by far one of the best SB cards in this colours for this deck. The only thing I really want, is the second Faithless Looting in the MD. I have to look, what I could cut for it.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Faithless Looting is the weirdo card here. It does a few interesting things for the deck: firstly, it finds lands early in exchange for slower burn spells or extra copies of Day’s Undoing (we only need one). Making the first three land drops is crucial to taking advantage of an Undoing in hand. It also pumps Monastery Swiftspear, sometimes while drawing us into another one-mana spell we can cast before attacks. I’ve even flashed it back a couple times for the extra point of damage. Similarly, Looting can stock the Graveyard for Grim Lavamancer. But most importantly, it turns an “unkeepable” seven drawn off Day’s Undoing into a goldmine. By the time we cast Undoing, we have 3+ lands on the battlefield, so any extras we draw are basically dead. Faithless chucks them immediately for a shot at more fire, and can be flashed back easily with mana up after an Undoing.
Obviously, iGrow has come a long way since I wrote that. In testing I found that while Looting is great before an Undoing, it's horrible before one, during the time where it's crucial to play spells that impact the board and cards in hand are of short supply. Additionally, and this is more of a minor gripe: when chaining Undoings, Looting dumps "dead" lands right back into the Graveyard to draw later.
I don't think it's good enough, mainly for the first reason. Also interested to hear back from Kathal.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Yes, all of the midrange matchups. Jund, Grixis, various flavors of control (including UW and Jeskai), etc. Read the primer and the linked articles for more on this.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
@mssym and @ashtonkucher, the reason why I like Faithless Looting in any non Midrange Delver deck (so every Delver deck besides Jeskai, Grixis and the RUG Cryptic version) is, that it plays like a mini Day's Undoing in the mid to lategame.
Backstory: I started to run Izzet Charm in Counter-Cat (4c Delver), since I run very often into the problem, that I reached the mid to late game and I only drew "crap" cards (you don't want to draw Spell Pierce against nearly any deck, when they have 4+ lands in play, the same is true for lands, when you already have 3 or 4 (always depends on the list)). Izzet Charm was a card, which acted as a Looting in those situations, while still having decent other modes. However, I noticed after several games (around 50+), that I nearly always used the Looting ability, since I either was digging for something, or getting rid of crap. At this point, I asked myself, why not just run Looting instead, since it is cheaper, easier to cast and has flashback.
I never looked back.
Looting is an allstar in all Delver decks I'm playing (so the non Midrange Delver decks).
In this deck however, the effectiveness of the card reaches from ok till awesome, depending on which state of the game you are. Early game, you would rather have a Sleight of Hands (which is btw better in my version than Serum Visions* (I know...)), since you don't lose a card. Reaching the mid to lategame, you want that Looting effect to get rid of all those extra lands. This deck only needs 4 lands to function perfectly, and most of the time we have way more than 4 lands in play/hand due to the sheer amount of cantrips combined without a Brainstorm (BS) effect. Looting is this "BS" in this deck.
Basically, Looting acts as a 5th Day's Undoing in the mid/lategame, and Day's Undoing is one of the best cards in the deck, so why not play a 5th one (*legal 5th one).
*Some reasons, why Sleight of Hands is better than Visions in my version. Since it is straight UR, I have no access to Goyf/Mandrills, and hence "have to" play with Abbot. Abbot is as Swiftspear a prowess creature, Pyromancer isn't mad either, if you are chaining spells together. Since you want to actively chain spells (aka, cantripps) to deal a ton of damage/get value out of Pyro, Sleight is better, since you can chose from 2 cards, while Sleight is just a draw 1 + scry, which doesn't help, if you want spells right now. I know, that I'm (probably) alone with this opinion.
Greetings,
Kathal
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Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Just wanted to stop by and say I think your evaluation of Day's Undoing is the only one I agree with I've found so far. A lot of people talk about it but I never really agreed with what they wanted to do with it (like Undoing Burn). It always seemed like there was a home for it somewhere and I think you have found it. Tempo really does fit this card. I played (and still do from time to time) the Ninja, Bear, Delver Twoo Brew list and even with so many cantrips the deck still starts to go dry on threats and interaction at the most critical moment. I think that Day's Undoing is exactly what that kind of Tempo deck wants.
With most of your interaction happening at instant speed anyway its nothing to swing, cast Undoing, and pass the turn with at least 2 mana up and spend all of your interactions on your opponent's turn. For that reason I agree that even with a low curve, your deck is kind of mana hungry because Undoing gets better the more instant speed cards you have in your deck but only if you have the mana to continue playing cards after you pass the turn. At that point we are talking at least 5-6 mana.
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Just wanted to stop by and say I think your evaluation of Day's Undoing is the only one I agree with I've found so far. A lot of people talk about it but I never really agreed with what they wanted to do with it (like Undoing Burn). It always seemed like there was a home for it somewhere and I think you have found it. Tempo really does fit this card. I played (and still do from time to time) the Ninja, Bear, Delver Twoo Brew list and even with so many cantrips the deck still starts to go dry on threats and interaction at the most critical moment. I think that Day's Undoing is exactly what that kind of Tempo deck wants.
With most of your interaction happening at instant speed anyway its nothing to swing, cast Undoing, and pass the turn with at least 2 mana up and spend all of your interactions on your opponent's turn. For that reason I agree that even with a low curve, your deck is kind of mana hungry because Undoing gets better the more instant speed cards you have in your deck but only if you have the mana to continue playing cards after you pass the turn. At that point we are talking at least 5-6 mana.
Actually this deck plays mostly at Sorcery speed, but when you start chaining Undoings you do have so many lands that you frequently start throwing Bolts and Snags at an opponent's end step after drawing 7. And yeah, Undoing helps make the land drops, but it's very important to make the first 3 or 4 land drops on your own. That's why Serum Visions is so valuable. On that note....
@Kathal, I've tested Sleight extensively and have found that it's much worse than Serum Visions. Sleight does more in this deck than it does in any other - it blind-flips Delver, it makes 1/1s, it pumps Swiftspear and Goyf, it pitches to Shoal, it finds lands and business (kind of, though its digging abilities are really hindered by only seeing two cards), AND it gives you something nice to do with extra mana after Undoing. But it's still bad. So bad, in fact, that I've cut my pair for two Hooting Mandrills, which actually wins games.
As for Looting, I also discovered the card while playing Counter-Cat. It was more like a 4th Cruise there, recycling dead fetches in the late-game (some matchups, like UR Delver, were favorable but very grindy). I actually started with a full set of Looting in my UR Undoing Delver list, then went to 2, then cut it before even adding green. Since it's so bad before an Undoing I don't think it has a place here. You can read more about it in the articles linked in the primer.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I know, that Visions is a better card, but in my version, which I played, I wasn't running G. If you are running G, I totally agree with you, that Sleight is worse than Visions, and that by a mile. However, since I have a Prowess heavy deck + Pyro, Sleight got a lot better.
I know, that the RUG version is better in most metagames, and I know, I should switch to it. However, I still like the Abbots so much (third best card in that shell, after Undoing and Pyro), since they are just crazy in that shell (I love them). But if you have Goyfs, run the Goyf version, since it has a far better Bolt match-up than the straight UR version.
I know your articles from MN, but I disagree here. Looting is a great card in every non Midrange Delver deck, and I will always play at least 1 of them in those decks (at least in Modern).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm very interested in building this deck and trying it out. First off, great job on the primer. I want to stick to the UR shell to avoid buying Tarmagoyf. This is the list I was working on:
The reasoning for the MB Lava Spikes is because I feel this deck will often have to switch to the Day's Undoing/ burn plan once the board is stabilized and this gives the deck a little more reach and redundancy. I have always found Sleight of Hand to be a little lackluster but I could be wrong. I know a lot of the counterspells in my SB do not pair well with the Day's Undoings and the Abotts but they seem necessary in matchups where Day's Undoing is sided out completely. I will have to play test and tweak as I go along. Let me know if you have any thoughts on my list or my thought process so far.
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Modern: Bant Company GWU Dredgevine GBR Affinity 0 Grixis Control UBR
I'm very interested in building this deck and trying it out. First off, great job on the primer. I want to stick to the UR shell to avoid buying Tarmagoyf. This is the list I was working on:
The reasoning for the MB Lava Spikes is because I feel this deck will often have to switch to the Day's Undoing/ burn plan once the board is stabilized and this gives the deck a little more reach and redundancy. I have always found Sleight of Hand to be a little lackluster but I could be wrong. I know a lot of the counterspells in my SB do not pair well with the Day's Undoings and the Abotts but they seem necessary in matchups where Day's Undoing is sided out completely. I will have to play test and tweak as I go along. Let me know if you have any thoughts on my list or my thought process so far.
I have been playing the UR version for a couple weeks and i found that I am a big fan of the counter package in the sideboard. There's plenty of situations where you just need more counter spell. but I really don't agree with main board lava spike. It's not obvious on paper but I've found that faithless looting is super good in the deck. Being able to dig for answers pre undoing is fantastic and post undoing you get rid of excess lands. Not to mention the prowess triggers. I guess lava spike is fine in the burn out plan, but after an undoing you should be able to dig for bolts. I would even play main board dispels over lava spike. Does lava spike really advance your main plan with the deck? What happens when you draw them after an undoing? You wait an entire turn to use them and by that time you can just cast all your cantrips to start digging for another undoing or bolts. By that time your opponent had an opportunity to use his 7 new cards while lava spike sat useless. I would play dispels first then looting before I added spike. But maybe I'm wrong.
I feel you might as well run 4 faithless looting instead of 4 serum visions if your going to blow your hand out by turn 3, do it the right way. And I think young pyromancer and tarmo, can never exist together. Young psysie and tarmo are just too different, young pysie shines in control when you need mass blockers and a long game to win. Where as tarmo shines as making card advantage threw killing blockers
My hard results disagree with just about everything you've said about Delver decks in this and the RUG Delver thread. Most of it can be found in my primers and in the articles linked at the bottom of them; if you want other users to stop accusing you of trolling, or for me to take your opinion seriously, I suggest you take a look at the data I've collected, or at least bring some hard evidence of your own. Even an undefeated FNM report, while a weak data point, is something.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm very interested in building this deck and trying it out. First off, great job on the primer. I want to stick to the UR shell to avoid buying Tarmagoyf. This is the list I was working on:
The reasoning for the MB Lava Spikes is because I feel this deck will often have to switch to the Day's Undoing/ burn plan once the board is stabilized and this gives the deck a little more reach and redundancy. I have always found Sleight of Hand to be a little lackluster but I could be wrong. I know a lot of the counterspells in my SB do not pair well with the Day's Undoings and the Abotts but they seem necessary in matchups where Day's Undoing is sided out completely. I will have to play test and tweak as I go along. Let me know if you have any thoughts on my list or my thought process so far.
I wouldn't play the Lava Spikes too. Either run something which can target creatures too (since you will often need it) or skip it. We can burn for a lot (especially with Day's Undoing), but we don't want to play rather "dead" cards. I would even run Mutagenic Growth over it, because it synergies better with the Prowess guys (and it gives us another free spell/something which can protect a flipped Delver/Prowess creature from a Bolt).
Just to give you an idea, my current list (without SB, cause it changes the whole time):
The Manabase isn't great, since I have no Scalding Tarns. I would even consider going down to 5 fetches and play another Shivan Reef to have 1 more real land. Have to test that.
The Cantrip-suite is a compromise between the Prowess/Pryomancer plan and the pure power of cards. If I go the full Pyro/Prowess plan, I would play the full playset Sleight instead of the Visions. However, Serum Visions is still a better card overall, so I stick to it. The Faithles Looting is doing overtime so far, I kinda want a second one, but I don't know what to cut
I cut one Vapor Snag for the Send to Sleep, dunno if this the correct call, but I board in this card so often and against so many match-ups, I even might play another one. Problem: I'm running out of slots
The 2 Dispel main with the 3 Shoals is a nod towards Bolt decks, you need cheap interaction against those decks, especially against Bolt to get a clock going. Furthermore, it helps in some counter wars, which is fine too. The 4th Shoal is in the SB against Infect and those decks, where you want 4 Shoals. Same with the 4th Vapor Snag, which is great against anything with Delve/high end creatures.
I get a lot flooded, so I might cut the 17th land for the 4th Serum Visions (which is the best card to find a land). However, I want at least 2 lands to work with, so this might be a bad idea.
I have been playing the UR version for a couple weeks and i found that I am a big fan of the counter package in the sideboard. There's plenty of situations where you just need more counter spell. but I really don't agree with main board lava spike. It's not obvious on paper but I've found that faithless looting is super good in the deck. Being able to dig for answers pre undoing is fantastic and post undoing you get rid of excess lands. Not to mention the prowess triggers. I guess lava spike is fine in the burn out plan, but after an undoing you should be able to dig for bolts. I would even play main board dispels over lava spike. Does lava spike really advance your main plan with the deck? What happens when you draw them after an undoing? You wait an entire turn to use them and by that time you can just cast all your cantrips to start digging for another undoing or bolts. By that time your opponent had an opportunity to use his 7 new cards while lava spike sat useless. I would play dispels first then looting before I added spike. But maybe I'm wrong.
What counters are you playing in the SB? Currently, I'm running 1 Dispel and 2 Negate (I have already 2 Dispel MD). I might add a Flashfreeze, since Rhino and co are a pain in the ass (however, I have Send to Sleep for those threats).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
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4 Delvers
4 Swiftspear
4 Abboth
4 Pyro
4 Vapor Snag
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Remand
4 Bolt
4 Day's Undoing
2 Spell Snare
18 lands
4 delver of secrets
4 young pyromancer
4 monastery swiftspear
2 abbot of keral keep
28 spells
4 days undoing
4 serum visions
4 gitaxian probe
4 disrupting shoal
4 lightning bolt
4 vapor snag
2 remand
2 spell snare
2 pillar of flame
2 electrolyze
2 hurkyl's recall
3 send to sleep
3 negate
1 dispel
2 flashfreeze
I went 2-1 in a small modern event last night with this deck. My mana base is a total wreck and totally based on my budget and card availability. I didn't include it because of this but having the right mana was only an issue once and resulted in mulling to 4. In the limited testing I have done, I've found days undoing to be decent. But not the best card ever. I have noticed that I tend to pitch them to dispruting shoal a lot. My night went as follows.
Match 1: Grixis Twin 2-0
I'm pretty sure this guy is either really unlucky, or the worst twin player ever. I didn't even know he was on twin until I asked after the match was over. I played this like it was Grixis control and traded one for one with bolts and counters until I could cast days undoing with zero cards in hand and win. Game 2 is still did not see any combo pieces but I struggled with keeping threats on the board. Eventually I got a flipped delver to stick and won an attrition game.
Match 2: GU infect 1-2
Game 1 I blow him out with 2 flipped delvers on turn 3 and he never catches up. Game 2 he lands a spellskite on turn 2 and I have a shoal and nothing worth 2 in hand. I lose to spellskite protection. Game 3 we trade back and forth for a few turns them he goes for the kill on turn 4. He as the perfect combination of spells and counters to do exactly lethal through my removal.
This is only match I sided out days undoing.
Match 3: Abzan Company 2-1
Game 1 he turn 4 coco's into the combo and gains infinite life. Game 2 I don't see much and steamroll him. Game 3 is long and grindy. The key play was pitching a days undoing to disrupting shoal to counter a kitchen finks. Then I was just able to stay ahead and make a buttload of pyromancer tokens.
Also some thoughts on [card]abbot of keral keep[\card]. I ran 2 because the week before I went 0-4 with the full set and lost repeatedly with 2+ copies in my hand. After playing a bit more with the card I think it might be one of the best cards in the deck. It's just pure value if it resolves and it can get really big really fast.
Sorry if this post sounds really disjointed. I typed it up over the course of a day on my Ipad.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
My other losses were to Jeskai Control and Affinity.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I haven't played too much Jeskai control but U/W control/midrange is annoying as hell. Yesterday I played one that had the perfect draw every single time. I started with 2 delvers he responds with 2 path to exiles. I start amassing elemental tokens, he supreme verdict. And that card can't even be countered.
Also on another note, I have been testing this deck with 3 hooting mandrills and one simic charm(saving up to get tarmogoyfs right now) and I think it actually plays better than the regular UR version. While hooting mandrills and vapor snag don't mix very well, he still passes the bolt test, which I feel this deck definitely needs one of. Also my favorite part about green is the sideboarding that opens up as a result. Again not saying its better than the tarmogoyf version, but I think stronger than UR.
Interesting thoughts on Goyfless green. Post more about it when you get the chance to do additional testing!
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
My analysis of the RUG Mandrills iGrow vs UR iGrow, has to start with the issues I encountered with the one decks you mentioned.
I completely agree with the thoughts on path to exile the extra land speeds up our deck and at the cost of 1 delver it really is fine. I was just super salty about that loss because I already had 3 land in my starting hand, and then drew into 2 more after the exiles. Affinity is the one deck that consistently causes problems, no matter what I sideboard against I always had problems. Hurkyl's recall does not really help usually because their hand is already non-existent and they can just play everything again. This helps prevent their equipped creatures from swinging out, but does not help get rid of them. I then thought smash to smithereens might not be a bad play, but when comparing it to the versatility of destructive revelry I wanted more.
So I decided to give RUG a test with hooting mandrills and see how it went. Right now I am using UR with Goblin Guide, so I was going in with the mentality that it would be much slower. However while the early game 1 drop was missed, I found myself loving the additional green anytime after turn 2. The 3 decks in particular I saw improvements in facing were Affinity, Burn, and Splinter Twin.
1) Destructive Revelry = much better answer to multiple problems. It provides a more solid answer to artifacts like smash to smithereens even with the burn. However unlike Hurkyl's recall and smash to smithereens, this card can also be used to get rid of enchantments and gives us that extra 2 damage for a bit of burn. This provides yet another answer to splinter twin, a deck UR version does not have a true answer to. While we can counter a deceiver exarch or pestermite we simply do not have a way in the UR to get rid of turn 4 splinter twin, which is a huge liability for me at least due to the decent amount of splinter decks in my area. It may sound trivial, but a multi purpose card like this was a big help in a few different scenarios.
2) I still have 1 feed the clan in my sideboard and for burn this absolutely hoses them. Burn isn't the hardest deck to beat in the world, but it is still burn. When it catches fire there is little you can do slow it down without your own perfect hand. Feed the clan gives you that extra time and gives you a chance to right the ship, so to speak. Also not to forget hooting mandrills did not die to anything short of a terminate, which was FANTASTIC. In UR seeing all of my cards get their clocks cleaned by lightning bolts, pyroclasms, anger of the gods was nothing short of enraging/depressing. But I finally had my tank out and about. Not to mention the lone simic charm proved to be awesome, possibly even worth of running 2+. It gives us another vapor snag, gives us some extra damage to throw on delver or mandrills to push into a possible win or outgrow their blockers, or gives us a shot at surviving a barrage of burn spells.
It was for these reasons alone I find that splashing green, even while being goyfless, was completely worth it. Not to say it is a deck that can beat anyone, because it still does have problems with Affinity's speed, power, and overall synergy. But it certainly shores up some weaknesses people with the UR version might have had. Or maybe I just suck at magic and other people don't have those issues lol
1st Opponent - UW Control
1st game - 0-0 - I win the roll so I choose the play. I throw out a turn 1 delver, he flips turn 2 only to get exiled so I bring out a 3rd land(tapped but none the less helped my base) and play young pyromancer. Get a few tokens turn 3 & 4 only to get hit by supreme verdicted on my turn. He then plays sphinx's tutelage and hedron crab and mills me. Then he plays ensnaring bridge to ensure I can't do anything. He gets rid of all the good stuff, and I am stuck with dead draws. He mills me out ftw.
side out -> 4 vapor snag, 4 disrupting shoal
main in -> 4 forked bolt, 3 blood moon, destructive revely
2nd game - 0-1 - I take the play again. He plays leyline of sanctity turn 1 which makes my sideboard useless but I still don't sweat it with my starting hand. I got turn 1 delver, turn 3 delver flips, I play monastery swiftspear plus a serum visions. I swing for 5. Turn 4 he plays another land does and plays nothing. Turn 5 I play young pyromancer and he gets mana leaked. I swing for 4 and he is down to 10 (used 1 fetchy). Turn 6 he plays the crab again. Turn 7 I blood moon, he gets screwed with only 1 basic plains. Turn 8 he does nada, Turn 9 I fork bolt it, use gitaxian probe and hit him for 6, he moves down to 4. Next turn I swing for lethal.
kept the same deck for 3rd game.
3rd - 1-1 - He is on the play, turn 1 plays a land. Turn 1 I scalding tarn into an steam vents, then I play a delver. Turn 2 he plays a crab. Turn 2 misty rainforest into breeding pool, delver flips, I play 1 forked bolt and a serum visions. Swing for 3 he goes down to 17. Turn 3 he does nothing. I play a forest and another delver. He exiles my flipped insect and I then play hooting mandrills. Next turn my delver flips and I beat his face in with my insect and monkey combo.
So I won 2-1 against UW, I really noticed the strength of this matchup was the power of the board. Blood moon in particular. Overall the deck played pretty fast (as a tempo deck should) and I didn't really feel pressured after that 1st game.
2nd Opponent - RG Tron
This matchup was a joke I don't even really need to break it down because it ended so fast.
Game 1 - 0-0 - I win the roll again and choose to go 1st. I monastery swiftspear early, he tries to race into his urza lands, but I disrupting shoal his expedition map with a vapor snag which sets him behind. I get out a early turn 3 hooting mandrill with a combination of 2 fetch lands, my disrupting shoal, 2 gitaxian probes I paid 4 life for, and my breeding pool I paid 2 life for as well. It was 12-19 just because I was burning through life, however that was the last time. Turn 5 I play another swifspear and I proceed to combo them with a lightning bolt along with mandrills and hit him for 11 that turn (12-9), I clean up next turn.
side in -> 4 forked bolt, 3 blood moon, 1 negate
main out -> 4 disrupting shoal, vapor snag
Game 2 1-0 - He starts off turn 1 with land. More or less the same thing happens as last game, however this time I was just turning wide with my Young Pyromancer. He did manage to play Ugin on turn 5, however I negate it along with his chances of winning.
Overall I was really happy with the deck's performance. I mean this was not a very competitive setting, just a casual thing, but I was still happy to see it work out. Like I said he does not replace goyf, but hooting mandrills proved to be effective none the less.
I took iGrow to a WMCQ and went 6-3. You can read my report here:
http://modernnexus.com/pyromancer-igrows-up-wmcq-toronto/
Also added the link to the primer.
Going forward, I'm trying a pair of Mandrills over the Sleights.
Edit -- the article also covers hoser cards like Feed the Clan and Hurkyl's Recall (I say not to run them). The key cards against Affinity are Electrickery and Snapcaster Mage. If you still lose to them, though, and somehow have space for hoser cards, Recall is much stronger than other options, even Ancient Grudge; it absolutely dismantles the deck.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
2 blood moon
2 forked bolt
2 electrickery
1 hurkyl's recall
2 send to sleep
2 destructive revelry
2 threads of disloyalty
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Steam Vents
3 Shivan Reef
2 Island
1 Mountain
//Creatures
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Vapor Snag
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Mana Leak
4 Day's Undoing
3 Dispel
3 Forked Bolt
1 Burst Lightning
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Send to Sleep
2 Negate
2 Hurkyl's Recall
Just some small notes: I don't own Sulfur Falls, so I couldn't play 2 instead of 2 Shivan Reefs. Also, the SB wasn't ideal at all. I wanted to try some cards (like Lavamancer), so don't take this SB if you want to play straight UR (if you have Snappies, play some copies in the SB, along some number of burn spells).
Round 1 against Merfolk 2-0
Game 1 I opened with double Delver, killed him on turn 4 via Delver beats and Bolts.
Game 2 he mulled to 5, so not that relevant. He died again to Delver beats and a Pyromancer which went crazy.
Round 2 against Grixis Delver Control 2-1 (a hybrid between Control and Delver, but without Pyromancers)
Game 1 a combination of Delver, Swiftspear and Pyromancer got him pretty low, before he could clear the board. One DU (Day's Undoing) later, he was dead. I drew the nuts with triple Swiftspear, Bolt, Sleight, Snag and land, while I had 5 lands in play.
Game 2 Pyro went crazy, but a sweeper (the -4-4 one for 4) cleared the board. I got him down to 4, but didn't drew enough burn to finish him off and I died to Angler + Delver. I could have won the game, if I wouldn't have made a mistake with Pyro (not attacking into a Angler with 4 tokens, which would have been enough to kill him later).
Game 3 went to time, since game 2 was super grindy. He was on 17 on my turn 1 of extra turns. I swing for 5 (Abbot + Delver), put him down to 12. He killed my Abbot in his turn, I untapped swing with Delver, cast Undoing (he went down to 9). I got a kinda crap hand, but with Swiftspear, Sleight and Forked Bolt. I untapped drew a blank, casted Swiftspear (Leak), attacked with Delver, but him down to 4 (he shocked in his turn). I casted Forked Bolt, he went down to 2. Sleight of Hands, flip first card, Land, second card, Forked Bolt. Welp, I guess I won this game.
Round 3 against Jeskai Control 0-2
Game 1 I had a good card, but he had several Bolts, Helixes and Electrolyze to deal with my board. I had to cast 2 Undoing, to get a shot of winning, but he drew better than me (I flooded horrible out that game).
Game 2 I kept a great hand, but it needed another land (Dispel, 2x Pyro, GP, Visions, 2 lands), to play around Bolts. I didn't drew the land for 5 turns and died to Colonnade and Resto Angel.
Round 4 against Hangerback Little Kid Junk 2-0
Game 1 2 Pyromancers was more than enough to win that one.
Game 2 I had a Delver draw, which dealt some damage before he got Pathed. After several turns, my board was like Delver (unflipped), Pyro + several tokens, Swiftspear and Abbot (+ lands), while he head 2 Voices, Hangerback and Rhino. I was tapped out. He slammed down a chalice on 2, which I Shoaled (exile Send to Sleep). Next turn he made the same play, but I didn't had a counter for it. However, I drew better than him and I was able to power through his board thanks to a timely Send to Sleep. It helped, that he forgot the Chalice trigger for Forked Bolt, which killed 2 tokens.
Thoughts: Abbot was crazy. I was always happy drawing one, since he is like Dark Confidant in this build. Pyromancer was as good as always, Swiftspear was better than Delver most of the times (exception was against Junk). Shoal was meh most of the times, same with Leak. I really missed Faithless Looting and something which can dodge Bolt (which doesn't exist the UR colours). Send to Sleep was crazy (best SB card). Guys, pls play this card more, it is freaking insane in this deck.
If I would play UR D-Day again, I would play something like this:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Shivan Reef
2 Island
1 Mountain
//Creatures
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
1 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Vapor Snag
2 Dispel
3 Disrupting Shoal
1 Send to Sleep
4 Day's Undoing
1 Dispel
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Burst Lightning
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Shattering Spree
1 Flame Slash
2 Forked Bolt
2 Send to Sleep
1 Snapback
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Snapcaster Mage
Some reasons: if you are straight UR, you want some numbers of Dispel MD for Bolts and co, since your creatures are more valuable to those spells than in the RUG version. SB should be changed accordingly to your meta/expected meta, but always run some numbers of Send to Sleep. It is by far one of the best SB cards in this colours for this deck. The only thing I really want, is the second Faithless Looting in the MD. I have to look, what I could cut for it.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I don't think it's good enough, mainly for the first reason. Also interested to hear back from Kathal.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Backstory: I started to run Izzet Charm in Counter-Cat (4c Delver), since I run very often into the problem, that I reached the mid to late game and I only drew "crap" cards (you don't want to draw Spell Pierce against nearly any deck, when they have 4+ lands in play, the same is true for lands, when you already have 3 or 4 (always depends on the list)). Izzet Charm was a card, which acted as a Looting in those situations, while still having decent other modes. However, I noticed after several games (around 50+), that I nearly always used the Looting ability, since I either was digging for something, or getting rid of crap. At this point, I asked myself, why not just run Looting instead, since it is cheaper, easier to cast and has flashback.
I never looked back.
Looting is an allstar in all Delver decks I'm playing (so the non Midrange Delver decks).
In this deck however, the effectiveness of the card reaches from ok till awesome, depending on which state of the game you are. Early game, you would rather have a Sleight of Hands (which is btw better in my version than Serum Visions* (I know...)), since you don't lose a card. Reaching the mid to lategame, you want that Looting effect to get rid of all those extra lands. This deck only needs 4 lands to function perfectly, and most of the time we have way more than 4 lands in play/hand due to the sheer amount of cantrips combined without a Brainstorm (BS) effect. Looting is this "BS" in this deck.
Basically, Looting acts as a 5th Day's Undoing in the mid/lategame, and Day's Undoing is one of the best cards in the deck, so why not play a 5th one (*legal 5th one).
*Some reasons, why Sleight of Hands is better than Visions in my version. Since it is straight UR, I have no access to Goyf/Mandrills, and hence "have to" play with Abbot. Abbot is as Swiftspear a prowess creature, Pyromancer isn't mad either, if you are chaining spells together. Since you want to actively chain spells (aka, cantripps) to deal a ton of damage/get value out of Pyro, Sleight is better, since you can chose from 2 cards, while Sleight is just a draw 1 + scry, which doesn't help, if you want spells right now. I know, that I'm (probably) alone with this opinion.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
With most of your interaction happening at instant speed anyway its nothing to swing, cast Undoing, and pass the turn with at least 2 mana up and spend all of your interactions on your opponent's turn. For that reason I agree that even with a low curve, your deck is kind of mana hungry because Undoing gets better the more instant speed cards you have in your deck but only if you have the mana to continue playing cards after you pass the turn. At that point we are talking at least 5-6 mana.
https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/86097
@Kathal, I've tested Sleight extensively and have found that it's much worse than Serum Visions. Sleight does more in this deck than it does in any other - it blind-flips Delver, it makes 1/1s, it pumps Swiftspear and Goyf, it pitches to Shoal, it finds lands and business (kind of, though its digging abilities are really hindered by only seeing two cards), AND it gives you something nice to do with extra mana after Undoing. But it's still bad. So bad, in fact, that I've cut my pair for two Hooting Mandrills, which actually wins games.
As for Looting, I also discovered the card while playing Counter-Cat. It was more like a 4th Cruise there, recycling dead fetches in the late-game (some matchups, like UR Delver, were favorable but very grindy). I actually started with a full set of Looting in my UR Undoing Delver list, then went to 2, then cut it before even adding green. Since it's so bad before an Undoing I don't think it has a place here. You can read more about it in the articles linked in the primer.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I know, that the RUG version is better in most metagames, and I know, I should switch to it. However, I still like the Abbots so much (third best card in that shell, after Undoing and Pyro), since they are just crazy in that shell (I love them). But if you have Goyfs, run the Goyf version, since it has a far better Bolt match-up than the straight UR version.
I know your articles from MN, but I disagree here. Looting is a great card in every non Midrange Delver deck, and I will always play at least 1 of them in those decks (at least in Modern).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I'm very interested in building this deck and trying it out. First off, great job on the primer. I want to stick to the UR shell to avoid buying Tarmagoyf. This is the list I was working on:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
Spells (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Vapor Snag
4 Day's Undoing
2 Lava Spike
18 Lands
1 Electrickery
3 Forked Bolt
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Rending Volley
1 Shattering Spree
2 Flashfreeze
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Spell Pierce
The reasoning for the MB Lava Spikes is because I feel this deck will often have to switch to the Day's Undoing/ burn plan once the board is stabilized and this gives the deck a little more reach and redundancy. I have always found Sleight of Hand to be a little lackluster but I could be wrong. I know a lot of the counterspells in my SB do not pair well with the Day's Undoings and the Abotts but they seem necessary in matchups where Day's Undoing is sided out completely. I will have to play test and tweak as I go along. Let me know if you have any thoughts on my list or my thought process so far.
I have been playing the UR version for a couple weeks and i found that I am a big fan of the counter package in the sideboard. There's plenty of situations where you just need more counter spell. but I really don't agree with main board lava spike. It's not obvious on paper but I've found that faithless looting is super good in the deck. Being able to dig for answers pre undoing is fantastic and post undoing you get rid of excess lands. Not to mention the prowess triggers. I guess lava spike is fine in the burn out plan, but after an undoing you should be able to dig for bolts. I would even play main board dispels over lava spike. Does lava spike really advance your main plan with the deck? What happens when you draw them after an undoing? You wait an entire turn to use them and by that time you can just cast all your cantrips to start digging for another undoing or bolts. By that time your opponent had an opportunity to use his 7 new cards while lava spike sat useless. I would play dispels first then looting before I added spike. But maybe I'm wrong.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I wouldn't play the Lava Spikes too. Either run something which can target creatures too (since you will often need it) or skip it. We can burn for a lot (especially with Day's Undoing), but we don't want to play rather "dead" cards. I would even run Mutagenic Growth over it, because it synergies better with the Prowess guys (and it gives us another free spell/something which can protect a flipped Delver/Prowess creature from a Bolt).
Just to give you an idea, my current list (without SB, cause it changes the whole time):
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
3 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Shivan Reef
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Young Pyromancer
//Spells
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hands
1 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Vapor Snag
2 Dispel
3 Disrupting Shoal
1 Send to Sleep
4 Day's Undoing
Short explanation of the card choices:
The Manabase isn't great, since I have no Scalding Tarns. I would even consider going down to 5 fetches and play another Shivan Reef to have 1 more real land. Have to test that.
The Cantrip-suite is a compromise between the Prowess/Pryomancer plan and the pure power of cards. If I go the full Pyro/Prowess plan, I would play the full playset Sleight instead of the Visions. However, Serum Visions is still a better card overall, so I stick to it. The Faithles Looting is doing overtime so far, I kinda want a second one, but I don't know what to cut
I cut one Vapor Snag for the Send to Sleep, dunno if this the correct call, but I board in this card so often and against so many match-ups, I even might play another one. Problem: I'm running out of slots
The 2 Dispel main with the 3 Shoals is a nod towards Bolt decks, you need cheap interaction against those decks, especially against Bolt to get a clock going. Furthermore, it helps in some counter wars, which is fine too. The 4th Shoal is in the SB against Infect and those decks, where you want 4 Shoals. Same with the 4th Vapor Snag, which is great against anything with Delve/high end creatures.
I get a lot flooded, so I might cut the 17th land for the 4th Serum Visions (which is the best card to find a land). However, I want at least 2 lands to work with, so this might be a bad idea.
What counters are you playing in the SB? Currently, I'm running 1 Dispel and 2 Negate (I have already 2 Dispel MD). I might add a Flashfreeze, since Rhino and co are a pain in the ass (however, I have Send to Sleep for those threats).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)