So you guys are saying that Sleight is better than Serum for Pyro/Abbot but I don't understand why that is. I would think that Abbot would almost be the same as Delver in that you gain benefit for planning your top deck. Like Delver you set up your top card to be an instant or sorcery to flip Delver. With Abbot on turn 3 you would set up the second card down to be a Land so you can guarantee the card advantage of top decking your land with Abbots ability or whatever. You would set up the card on top to maximize your ability to utilize Abbot's ability. Wouldn't that make Serum Visions better than Sleight? Heck, that would be better than Preordain even at least as far as Abbot is concerned. What is the dynamic I'm missing here?
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So you guys are saying that Sleight is better than Serum for Pyro/Abbot but I don't understand why that is. I would think that Abbot would almost be the same as Delver in that you gain benefit for planning your top deck. Like Delver you set up your top card to be an instant or sorcery to flip Delver. With Abbot on turn 3 you would set up the second card down to be a Land so you can guarantee the card advantage of top decking your land with Abbots ability or whatever. You would set up the card on top to maximize your ability to utilize Abbot's ability. Wouldn't that make Serum Visions better than Sleight? Heck, that would be better than Preordain even at least as far as Abbot is concerned. What is the dynamic I'm missing here?
Just to be very clear, Kathal is the only one saying this. I think Serum is much better than Sleight for the reasons you listed and more.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I have been playing the UR version for a couple weeks and i found that I am a big fan of the counter package in the sideboard. There's plenty of situations where you just need more counter spell. but I really don't agree with main board lava spike. It's not obvious on paper but I've found that faithless looting is super good in the deck. Being able to dig for answers pre undoing is fantastic and post undoing you get rid of excess lands. Not to mention the prowess triggers. I guess lava spike is fine in the burn out plan, but after an undoing you should be able to dig for bolts. I would even play main board dispels over lava spike. Does lava spike really advance your main plan with the deck? What happens when you draw them after an undoing? You wait an entire turn to use them and by that time you can just cast all your cantrips to start digging for another undoing or bolts. By that time your opponent had an opportunity to use his 7 new cards while lava spike sat useless. I would play dispels first then looting before I added spike. But maybe I'm wrong.
What counters are you playing in the SB? Currently, I'm running 1 Dispel and 2 Negate (I have already 2 Dispel MD). I might add a Flashfreeze, since Rhino and co are a pain in the ass (however, I have Send to Sleep for those threats).
Greetings,
Kathal
I'm running 2 flashfreeze 2 negate 1 dispel and 1 izzet charm in the sideboard. mostly to deal with the abundance of control and Tron in my meta. Against Tron it's a pure race with the potential for me to get blown out because shoal can't really interact with their gameplan. And against control is just additional protection for delver
Just to be very clear, Kathal is the only one saying this. I think Serum is much better than Sleight for the reasons you listed and more.
Okay, phew. I thought I was really missing out on something. I'd still like to hear his reasoning though because I'm curious.
I mean, I can see situations and deck building decisions that would make it so that Sleight has a place. I mean, in U/W control I have played Anticipate over Serum Visions and didn't hate it. In fact there are times where dropping Anticipate to find your answer at instant speed is exactly what you want and Serum Visions can't do that but that's a COMPLETELY different deck. In most decks Serum Visions is kind of a tempo play smoothing out the next few turns rather than a digging/card selection spell that let's you react quickly to control the situation. The problem is Sleight lets you look at 2 cards, not 3 and its sorcery speed. so it doesn't even do what I think you would want this card to do but maybe I'm missing something.
I may not play this deck, even though I think its super cool (I love Abbot), but if I can learn something from it I might as well try!
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As Ashton said, I'm the only one, who thinks that Sleight of Hands is "better" than Serum Visions IN THE STRAIGHT UR VERSION. I explained it on the last page, but the quintessence is: it synergies better with Swfitspear, Abbot and Pyro, since you want to chain spells together with those cards, and Sleight lets you do it better than Visions.
Do I think it is a good card? Heck no. Is it better than Visions? In the straight UR build, kinda (it is close), otherwise it is "garbage". As soon as you are in the RUG version of the deck, you are playing with Goyf and Mandrills, two cards which aren't profiting from Sleight. Hence, I will drop Sleight immediately when I go RUG.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
As Ashton said, I'm the only one, who thinks that Sleight of Hands is "better" than Serum Visions IN THE STRAIGHT UR VERSION. I explained it on the last page, but the quintessence is: it synergies better with Swfitspear, Abbot and Pyro, since you want to chain spells together with those cards, and Sleight lets you do it better than Visions.
Do I think it is a good card? Heck no. Is it better than Visions? In the straight UR build, kinda (it is close), otherwise it is "garbage". As soon as you are in the RUG version of the deck, you are playing with Goyf and Mandrills, two cards which aren't profiting from Sleight. Hence, I will drop Sleight immediately when I go RUG.
Greetings,
Kathal
I guess I don't understand how it helps you do that. Is it because you look at the card that goes in your hand before you draw it where Serum is just a blind draw?
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I think that's precisely how it does that. Sleight gives you a better chance of chaining spells that turn while serum sets up the next draw or 2 much better. Seems more of a choice of whether you need more of a 1 turn burst with your prowess or long term which probably depends on what you are up against. Getting a little bigger against some blockers or potentially killing a turn earlier can definitely be relevant but I can definitely see serums power being more relevant more often. If that concerned could potentially run a couple of both and maybe another in the board to swap between
The biggest problem with sleight is that it doesn't help help delver. If I have a delver I want visions 100% of the time over sleight. But once delver is flipped I understand the case for sleight. But why not just play faithless looting in that case? It's still card selection, just slightly different.
I think that's precisely how it does that. Sleight gives you a better chance of chaining spells that turn while serum sets up the next draw or 2 much better. Seems more of a choice of whether you need more of a 1 turn burst with your prowess or long term which probably depends on what you are up against. Getting a little bigger against some blockers or potentially killing a turn earlier can definitely be relevant but I can definitely see serums power being more relevant more often. If that concerned could potentially run a couple of both and maybe another in the board to swap between
I do want to stress, though, that Serum into Probe makes you Preordain. I'll frequently hold Probes for many reasons, including getting Pyromancer/Swiftspear triggers later on, gaining more information, or having a card to pitch for Shoal. Another reason is the value you can get out of Probe with a Serum Visions.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I played a UR version in a small tournament last night to 1-2 drop. I had a judge called on every match the first time I cast disrupting shoal. I feel like I could have easily been 2-1 but I made some mistakes and lost a match. I can do a write up if anyone wants it.
I played a UR version in a small tournament last night to 1-2 drop. I had a judge called on every match the first time I cast disrupting shoal. I feel like I could have easily been 2-1 but I made some mistakes and lost a match. I can do a write up if anyone wants it.
Go for it. Don't feel bad; this deck has a really high learning curve. Figuring out how to cast Undoing properly can be really tough. I was losing nonstop for a couple of weeks (and I play a lot) before I started consistently 4-0ing with it at locals and Top 8ing bigger events.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I tried running dispel in the maindeck but it proved to be to situational so I went with pierce instead. Counters the same things and more but becomes dead late. I was at a store I had never been to before so my sideboard was set up to cover as much as possible. Tournament was pretty small, about 12 people or so. 4 rounds cut to top 2.
Match 1: Abzan company 0-2
I feel like this not that bad of a match. Game 1 I came out swinging and got way ahead after pitching a shoal to shoal an anafenza. A kitchen finks sticks to the board but I'm so far ahead it doesnt real matter. I countered a coco on 2 consecutive turns and a on the 3 turn he cocos again I have no response and he flips the combo to gain infinite life. Bad luck I guess. Guy had 3 cocos. Game 2 I make a brutal mistake. I bolted an anafenza that had 2 +1/+1 counters on. I don't know what I was thinking. It was an absolutely devastating brain fart. I should have bolted on of the 3/3 voice tokens of which there were 2. Ultimately it didn't matter because he coco'd into the combo and I scooped.
Out:
1 Abbott
1 days undoing
1 disrupting shoal
In:
1 pillar of flame
2 send to sleep
Match 2: Amulet Bloom 1-2
Game 1 is a blowout. I tried to counter a turn 2 amulet. He had a pact of negation and killed me with a hive mind. Game 2 I shoal and turn 2 summer bloom and I have a judge called on me for the second time of the night. Bloom-man didn't believe that disrupting shoal was not banned. He never recovers from the counter and I win easy. Game 3 I keep a 1 lander with a delver and a bunch of cantrips. I never see a second land for 10 turns and I eventually lose.
This was another winnable match but it definitely feels like it is a bad matchup. the deck is just too explosive and too fast. Although if you can make it stumble early it's winnable.
Out:
4 days undoing
In:
2 flash freeze
2 negate
Match 3: UR storm 2-1
I have played this match a decent amount if a buddy from the main store I play at. It's pretty bad preboard but after sideboards get it gets much much better. Game 1 I shoal a pyromancers Ascension and eventually win with delver beats and bolts. For game 2 I side out 3 days undoing and 2 vapor snags to bring in the entire counter package. He sides in a bunch of removal like sudden shock and we have a super long game. I lose to 2 goblin tokens with him at 2 life. The next card in my deck is lightning bolt. Game 3 is another long game. I counter an early Ascension and then neither of us can get any momentum. I can't get a threat to stick and he can't get an Ascension on the board. Eventually I untap with a swiftspear and a pyromancer in play. I cantrip once swing to bring him below 10 and cast days undoing. I feel like this is a gamble because giving a combo deck a full set of 7 cards could be a disaster. luckily I draw 2 shoals in my new 7 win the game on my turn.
Knowing that I can't possibly make top 2 to prize I drop as its after 10pm and I'm exhausted. Overall I feel like if I played a little tighter and shuffle a little better I could have been 2-1 or even 3-0. I only cast undoing once all night as I sided them out against the fast combo and shoaled away one against Abzan. But the only time I cast it I basically won the game the following turn. I had an opportunity to cast one against Abzan but I passed on it afraid that I would draw him the combo.
Another note is that disrupting shoal is an all-star. Card was clutch and was a total blow out in multiple games. Unfortunately I walked into combo hell and was afraid to cast undoing most of the night leading me to play a gimped deck all night.
Sorry if any of this sounds confused. I typed it up on my iPad
I actually like Undoing against Storm since they spend so long sculpting a "perfect hand" to go off with. Undoing resets them and gives you a lot more gas to kill them with. Learning when to cast it is a big part of succeeding with iGrow. I wrote an article about casting Undoing that you can find in the primer.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Went to a ~30 people tournament this Sunday and I was kinda bored of Jund so I decided to sleeve up the "Banana Phone" list that is in the primer cause I enjoyed reading your reports on ModernNexus... With absolutely 0 experience of the deck (or tempo style gameplay in general to be honest), needless to say that it went pretty bad
Played with the exact same list that is in the primer except I had no Send to Sleep so I used 1 Blood Moon instead.
UW Control 0 - 2
-2 Vapor Snag
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Day's Undoing
He grinds me both games with Finks and Resto Angel. I really should have boarded the Huntmasters but this match felt winnable. Resolving Day's Undoing looked strong especially.
Rogue deck with walls 1 - 1
-3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Vapor Snag
+1 Day's Undoing
That matchup was horrendous. 0/4 and 0/8 with flying all over the place... I manage to win game 1 with burn but I failed to do so game 2.
First, the deck was really cool to play with. I could feel all the decisions I had to take (and all the mistakes I made along the way) and it was overall really fun to play with Day's Undoing.
However, I also felt like the deck was just not super strong... Maybe it's just bad matchups... Maybe it's the inconsistency you're taking about? On the latter point I totally agree actually, so many times, I felt like I just had the wrong answers...
Anyway, I'll give that kind of playstyle some more tries 'cause I enjoyed it but maybe I'm just not playing the right version? What would you recommend for a metagame with lots of grindy decks (Jund, Grixis Control, UW Control), decent amount of aggro, the occasional Tron and Grixis?
I've been playing the original iGrow version (with the minor sb tweak) from Jordan's tournament report article.
While I really love the deck's interaction, synergy and difficulty when it comes to decision making, I gotta agree that it seems to often...not quite "get there".
Of course some is normal variance (the amounts of 5+ land hands Undoing likes to give me is somewhat silly), but against the relatively mid-range-y Modo meta is seemed to kind of lack punch.
Where games against aggro and combo are mostly just "hope to finish them before dying" (especially Twin is troublesome with Exarchs mucking up the ground for ages and only Flame Slash being effective removal), the midrange decks tend to be able to outlast this deck.
Yes, it's great to fill up on interaction with 2 creatures in play, but giving a decks that are basically "all the value cards - the pile" a fresh 7 to let them deal with the board and refill their card pool isn't great.
And not always is holding the Undoing an option, when they e.g. have a just bounced Angler and a bunch of removal in their hand or it's topdeck time, which is never fun vs BGx.
So, while incredibly fun to play, I don't exactly see the deck's great match-ups yet, though I can at least say that I rarely lost 2-0.
At the very least it was an interesting deck to learn and made me realize that I really love playing Tempo, it's like playing Control, but with a Delver on the board to actually clock them and not just durdle around.
Maybe I should take a look at Monkey-Grow (though I'm not fond of monkeys) or Counter-Cat (dat manabase though. .__.), even though they don't draw as many cards.
As a sidenote: If the consistency issues (or perhaps just my play mistakes ^^) could be eased up some, I'd love to get this one on paper to actually start playing more than just online.
At the moment it just seems a bit too...cute? to throw that much money at it.
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Went to a ~30 people tournament this Sunday and I was kinda bored of Jund so I decided to sleeve up the "Banana Phone" list that is in the primer cause I enjoyed reading your reports on ModernNexus... With absolutely 0 experience of the deck (or tempo style gameplay in general to be honest), needless to say that it went pretty bad
Played with the exact same list that is in the primer except I had no Send to Sleep so I used 1 Blood Moon instead.
[...]
Anyway, I'll give that kind of playstyle some more tries 'cause I enjoyed it but maybe I'm just not playing the right version? What would you recommend for a metagame with lots of grindy decks (Jund, Grixis Control, UW Control), decent amount of aggro, the occasional Tron and Grixis?
Probably a combination of both. If you check the comments on the Banana Phone article (linked at the bottom of the primer), an experienced Tempo player sleeved the deck up without ever having played it before and won a PPTQ with it (he write a report, too). Delver decks are very hard to play.
I've been playing the original iGrow version (with the minor sb tweak) from Jordan's tournament report article.
While I really love the deck's interaction, synergy and difficulty when it comes to decision making, I gotta agree that it seems to often...not quite "get there".
Of course some is normal variance (the amounts of 5+ land hands Undoing likes to give me is somewhat silly), but against the relatively mid-range-y Modo meta is seemed to kind of lack punch.
Where games against aggro and combo are mostly just "hope to finish them before dying" (especially Twin is troublesome with Exarchs mucking up the ground for ages and only Flame Slash being effective removal), the midrange decks tend to be able to outlast this deck.
Yes, it's great to fill up on interaction with 2 creatures in play, but giving a decks that are basically "all the value cards - the pile" a fresh 7 to let them deal with the board and refill their card pool isn't great.
And not always is holding the Undoing an option, when they e.g. have a just bounced Angler and a bunch of removal in their hand or it's topdeck time, which is never fun vs BGx.
So, while incredibly fun to play, I don't exactly see the deck's great match-ups yet, though I can at least say that I rarely lost 2-0.
At the very least it was an interesting deck to learn and made me realize that I really love playing Tempo, it's like playing Control, but with a Delver on the board to actually clock them and not just durdle around.
Maybe I should take a look at Monkey-Grow (though I'm not fond of monkeys) or Counter-Cat (dat manabase though. .__.), even though they don't draw as many cards.
As a sidenote: If the consistency issues (or perhaps just my play mistakes ^^) could be eased up some, I'd love to get this one on paper to actually start playing more than just online.
At the moment it just seems a bit too...cute? to throw that much money at it.
I disagree with you on most counts. Giving "all value" decks 7 cards is fine because they can never spend their cards on time. I've had a lot of success with Undoing decks against BGx and think the card hoses them. At least, it does in my experience. Twin is also one of the best matchups (something like 80-20).
I'm sure play mistakes are a big part of your lack of success; as stated, these decks are incredibly challenging. That's the main reason I have trouble playing non-grow decks; I like to be challenged.
As for other grow decks in Modern, I recommend Counter-Cat or Monkey Grow. As far as I know, other ones don't exist.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I disagree with you on most counts. Giving "all value" decks 7 cards is fine because they can never spend their cards on time. I've had a lot of success with Undoing decks against BGx and think the card hoses them. At least, it does in my experience. Twin is also one of the best matchups (something like 80-20).
I'm sure play mistakes are a big part of your lack of success; as stated, these decks are incredibly challenging. That's the main reason I have trouble playing non-grow decks; I like to be challenged.
As for other grow decks in Modern, I recommend Counter-Cat or Monkey Grow. As far as I know, other ones don't exist.
So it's just me being a scrubby scrub.
That's pretty good news then. ^^
I guess I'll just gotta keep trying and get more games under my belt.
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I've been a long time follower of this thread and the MonkeyGrow RUG/Temur Delver thread, but finally decided to post.
I've mostly played tempo style decks, but haven't really been too serious about competitive magic and have only recently been playing at LGS FNM events and SCG events near me. I used to play Standard and switched to Modern after the UG Delver deck rotated out, slowly swapping out the Standard version into a Modern playable version and have tinkered with various RUG, UG and UR combinations, so when ashtonkutcher started brewing with Day's Undoing, I decided to use his primer to test it out at a LGS event last week. I had been doing a bit of playtesting with a few friends who played Merfolk, Jund and Grixis Delver before playing in this, so I have a little familiarity with the deck, but still have a long ways to go to learn it!
Just reporting mys results and observations! We played 4 rounds and I went 2-2.
My decklist is essentially Jordan's stock list with a few changes (mostly because of card availability). I was missing 1 Goyf, so I replaced it with one Hooting Mandrills and my fetchlands were less than ideal. My fetch suite included 4 Polluted Delta, 3 Wooded Foothill and 3 Flooded Strand. In my flex spots, I placed a Sleight of Hand and a Tarfire. (When I get a chance, I'll post the actual deck list).
Round 1: vs Infect (1-2)
Round 2: vs Junk (2-0)
Round 3: vs Living End (1-2)
Round 4: RG Breech (2-0)
Vs. Infect
Game 1: I was on the play and had good opener, although slightly threat heavy. I blind-flipped Delver on turn 2 and went straight into a Monastery Swiftspear and Tarfire on his turn 1 Glistener Elf. He never recovered.
Game 2: I struggled to flip my turn one Delver. I ate a little infect damage, while I dug for an answer to his elf. Couldn't find one and ate a Become Immense for the kill.
Game 3: I slung Lightning Bolt at a couple of threats and aggressively lost life fetching and probing and hit 13. I saw 2x Become Immense in his hand, which I didn't really see as a problem, but I wish I had. He dropped a Dryad Arbor and then a double Immense gave him a 13/13 creature with no resistance.
Thoughts: I made a huge error in how I sideboarded. Game 2, I took out my Day's Undoing for my Forked Bolts, which still seems like the right choice. Game 3, I decided to board out Delvers for 4x Snapcaster Mage. I'm not really sure what I was thinking, since there was no reason to switch to a midrange kind of strategy.
Vs. Junk
Game 1: This one dragged on. I was on the draw. Delver ate a Thoughtseize right away, but I drew into double Young Pyromancer. He got some Lingering Souls tokens out, but I chipped away at him with my elementals. I played undoing and drew into straight business (2 bolts and a snag). He only played a Finks after the undoing and I just bounced his Kitchen Finks, attacked with tons of tokens and bolted him twice for lethal.
Game 2: This one went shorter. He took a mulligan to 5 and didn't play any hand disruption. I blind-flipped a Delver and dropped a Young Pyro. Gitaxian Probe revealed that he had Choke, and 2 Lingering Souls. I was actually pretty happy about the Choke, since I had Undoing and a Shoal in hand. He tried playing it on his turn, but Shoal took care of it. After that, I hit him with tokens and Delver through his spirit tokens, eventually getting the win.
Vs. Living End
Game 1: On the play again. I was glad that I had a Disrupting Shoal in my opener after I saw him cycling a minotaur and a Street Wraith right away. I jammed out 2 Swiftspears early on and boosted them with cantrips. He cycled his creatures until he had 3 mana. Then he waited until my next turn to play Violent Outburst during my combat phase. I hit the Living End with Shoal for x=zero and finished the job the next turn with my Swiftspears.
Game 2: I probably should have took a mulligan, but I had 2 goyfs and a Serum Visions+Probe, so I decided to keep. The game went pretty much the same as last one for my opponent, until it was time to cast outburst. This time, I had no answer and struggled to recover with his board full of lame-o 3/4s.
Game 3: I landed a pyromancer turn two and had the Shoal in hand, but I fetched stupidly and didn't have double blue to counter the Living End. I also forgot that countering a spell with cascade doesn't stop the cascade trigger. So, I pitched Undoing to shoal to counter the outburst, but the cascade went off and I got my parts toasted.
Thoughts: This match should have been mine, but I just fetched like a moron on my last game. The second game, I should probably have held back a goyf knowing that I had no answer to Living End. You live. You learn.
Vs. RG Breach
Game 1: On the play again. I originally pegged this as a Scapeshift deck, since I saw an early Valakuut. The first game I got Delver and double Swiftspears out early. I won out of nowhere with my opponent's life total being 13, by casting a chain of spells and pumping Swiftspears. My opponent looked a little dumbfounded when it happened.
Game 2: I ground my opponent down to 1 life. I had Undoing in my hand, with 4 mana. He had a Stormbreath out. At this point I was rather confused as to what my opponent was playing, since he didn't do much in game and still thought I was playing against Scapeshift (albeit a really weird/bad budget version without blue). I decided to roll the dice and play the Undoing, leaving a Steam Vents up. I hit a snag and bounced his creature to push the last damage through.
Thoughts: This round made me realize how insane Swiftspears can be. Taking an opponent from 13 to 0 from out of nowhere on turn 3 by chaining cards like Probes/Visions/Bolts? That's pretty crazy.
Overall thoughts:
I'm cool with how I did. I could've done better had I not made some slip ups, but no game I played felt un-winnable. In fact, I feel if I had played better, I would have won all my rounds. There's some real potential in this deck and it often plays like the UR version with Treasure Cruise. Obviously, cruise is way better, but Undoing often functions as the way to finish out a game when you've run out of gas. I actually didn't have to cast it that often (only twice), but when I did, it won me the game.
Young Pyro and Swiftspear were all-stars. Swiftspear gets big in a hurry and out of nowhere. Goyf was kind of a dingus during my games. He's just a big dumb beast that your opponent sees coming a mile away. He's still great and I'd never not play him purely because of how efficient he is, but he's kind of lackluster in the element of surprise.
The cards that generally frustrate me the most are good old Delver of Secrets (we've always had a love-hate relationship since he got printed) and Disrupting Shoal. The reason being the variance on both of them. I've often toyed with the idea of dropping Delver for something else, because when he doesn't flip, he's kind of a turd. But the pure fact of the matter is, he's such a low mana investment and when he flips, the 3 power with evasion is such a huge tempo swing. A turn 2 blind flip Delver often wins the game. Disrupting Shoal is another card that has high variance. When it's good, it's insanely good. When it's bad...well, I think it has pretty artwork, so at least it's not an eyesore to look at. I had pretty good luck with both of them during my games at my LGS, but in testing, this has not always been the case. I have a feeling that DS is going to be another card that I have a love-hate relationship with.
Delver might be a "turd" in Grixis decks, but it's insane in this one. So is Shoal, which is probably the most important card in the deck. The more you play the deck, the more you'll come to understand the value of these cards. You're correct to board out Undoing and threats in the Infect matchup for Snapcaster and removal, but I think a full set of Snapcaster might be too many in the sideboard. Consider investing in Goyf #4 and some real fetchlands. Nice report!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
The power of tapping out and leading your opponent into a false sense of being able to play a spell with no worries of interaction from you, is huge. It's greatest power is baiting your opponent into casting something they need to play to get ahead that you can counter. When Shoal works, it's great. Shoaling a Aether Vial when you're on the draw against a Merfolk deck can really mess their strategy up bad (and feels really good).
The card's main problem is that you need to know exactly what spells you need to be using it on, way before you have to cast it and you need to hold the correct pitch for it. It's not like a catch-all counter, like Mana Leak or Stubborn Denial both of which will hit most scary cards your opponent can play, even if you hadn't planned on using it on a specific card.
The 2 for 1 aspect never phased me much. I think people have this misconception that card advantage is always a clear path to victory, but that's not the case when dealing with certain strategies. If that was the case, Goblin Guide would see less play. (OMG he lets your opponent draw cards when he attacks). Tempo doesn't necessarily care about ditching a card if it creates a profitable enough tempo swing.
All that being said, I'm not entirely sure I'm sold on the card. Sometimes I love it. Sometimes I hate staring at it, knowing that what I really need is Spell Snare or a Dispel.
What are everyone's thoughts on the newly spoiled Stormchaser Mage in this deck? Might be better than some number of copies of Abbot of Keral Keep. It could be really strong in a more agressive list running Lava Spike. Thoughts?
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Modern: Bant Company GWU Dredgevine GBR Affinity 0 Grixis Control UBR
What are everyone's thoughts on the newly spoiled Stormchaser Mage in this deck? Might be better than some number of copies of Abbot of Keral Keep. It could be really strong in a more agressive list running Lava Spike. Thoughts?
Agreed. Stormchaser is sweet in place of Abbot for UR lists and gives a real incentive to drop the green. Pitching to Shoal is a nice bonus, too.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
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Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
I'm running 2 flashfreeze 2 negate 1 dispel and 1 izzet charm in the sideboard. mostly to deal with the abundance of control and Tron in my meta. Against Tron it's a pure race with the potential for me to get blown out because shoal can't really interact with their gameplan. And against control is just additional protection for delver
Okay, phew. I thought I was really missing out on something. I'd still like to hear his reasoning though because I'm curious.
I mean, I can see situations and deck building decisions that would make it so that Sleight has a place. I mean, in U/W control I have played Anticipate over Serum Visions and didn't hate it. In fact there are times where dropping Anticipate to find your answer at instant speed is exactly what you want and Serum Visions can't do that but that's a COMPLETELY different deck. In most decks Serum Visions is kind of a tempo play smoothing out the next few turns rather than a digging/card selection spell that let's you react quickly to control the situation. The problem is Sleight lets you look at 2 cards, not 3 and its sorcery speed. so it doesn't even do what I think you would want this card to do but maybe I'm missing something.
I may not play this deck, even though I think its super cool (I love Abbot), but if I can learn something from it I might as well try!
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Do I think it is a good card? Heck no. Is it better than Visions? In the straight UR build, kinda (it is close), otherwise it is "garbage". As soon as you are in the RUG version of the deck, you are playing with Goyf and Mandrills, two cards which aren't profiting from Sleight. Hence, I will drop Sleight immediately when I go RUG.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I guess I don't understand how it helps you do that. Is it because you look at the card that goes in your hand before you draw it where Serum is just a blind draw?
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Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
3 polluted delta
3 wooded foothills
3 sulfur falls
2 steam vents
4 island
3 mountain
Creatures 16
4 delver of secrets
4 monastery swiftspear
4 young pyromancer
4 abbot of keral keep
4 serum visions
4 gitaxian probe
4 vapor snag
4 days undoing
4 disrupting shoal
4 lightning bolt
2 spell pierce
1 faithless looting
2 flash freeze
2 negate
1 dispel
2 send to sleep
1 pillar of flame
2 electrolyze
2 sowing salt
1 hurkyls recall
2 dragons claw
I tried running dispel in the maindeck but it proved to be to situational so I went with pierce instead. Counters the same things and more but becomes dead late. I was at a store I had never been to before so my sideboard was set up to cover as much as possible. Tournament was pretty small, about 12 people or so. 4 rounds cut to top 2.
Match 1: Abzan company 0-2
I feel like this not that bad of a match. Game 1 I came out swinging and got way ahead after pitching a shoal to shoal an anafenza. A kitchen finks sticks to the board but I'm so far ahead it doesnt real matter. I countered a coco on 2 consecutive turns and a on the 3 turn he cocos again I have no response and he flips the combo to gain infinite life. Bad luck I guess. Guy had 3 cocos. Game 2 I make a brutal mistake. I bolted an anafenza that had 2 +1/+1 counters on. I don't know what I was thinking. It was an absolutely devastating brain fart. I should have bolted on of the 3/3 voice tokens of which there were 2. Ultimately it didn't matter because he coco'd into the combo and I scooped.
Out:
1 Abbott
1 days undoing
1 disrupting shoal
In:
1 pillar of flame
2 send to sleep
Match 2: Amulet Bloom 1-2
Game 1 is a blowout. I tried to counter a turn 2 amulet. He had a pact of negation and killed me with a hive mind. Game 2 I shoal and turn 2 summer bloom and I have a judge called on me for the second time of the night. Bloom-man didn't believe that disrupting shoal was not banned. He never recovers from the counter and I win easy. Game 3 I keep a 1 lander with a delver and a bunch of cantrips. I never see a second land for 10 turns and I eventually lose.
This was another winnable match but it definitely feels like it is a bad matchup. the deck is just too explosive and too fast. Although if you can make it stumble early it's winnable.
Out:
4 days undoing
In:
2 flash freeze
2 negate
Match 3: UR storm 2-1
I have played this match a decent amount if a buddy from the main store I play at. It's pretty bad preboard but after sideboards get it gets much much better. Game 1 I shoal a pyromancers Ascension and eventually win with delver beats and bolts. For game 2 I side out 3 days undoing and 2 vapor snags to bring in the entire counter package. He sides in a bunch of removal like sudden shock and we have a super long game. I lose to 2 goblin tokens with him at 2 life. The next card in my deck is lightning bolt. Game 3 is another long game. I counter an early Ascension and then neither of us can get any momentum. I can't get a threat to stick and he can't get an Ascension on the board. Eventually I untap with a swiftspear and a pyromancer in play. I cantrip once swing to bring him below 10 and cast days undoing. I feel like this is a gamble because giving a combo deck a full set of 7 cards could be a disaster. luckily I draw 2 shoals in my new 7 win the game on my turn.
Knowing that I can't possibly make top 2 to prize I drop as its after 10pm and I'm exhausted. Overall I feel like if I played a little tighter and shuffle a little better I could have been 2-1 or even 3-0. I only cast undoing once all night as I sided them out against the fast combo and shoaled away one against Abzan. But the only time I cast it I basically won the game the following turn. I had an opportunity to cast one against Abzan but I passed on it afraid that I would draw him the combo.
Another note is that disrupting shoal is an all-star. Card was clutch and was a total blow out in multiple games. Unfortunately I walked into combo hell and was afraid to cast undoing most of the night leading me to play a gimped deck all night.
Sorry if any of this sounds confused. I typed it up on my iPad
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Played with the exact same list that is in the primer except I had no Send to Sleep so I used 1 Blood Moon instead.
UW Control 0 - 2
-2 Vapor Snag
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Day's Undoing
He grinds me both games with Finks and Resto Angel. I really should have boarded the Huntmasters but this match felt winnable. Resolving Day's Undoing looked strong especially.
Rogue deck with walls 1 - 1
-3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Vapor Snag
+1 Day's Undoing
That matchup was horrendous. 0/4 and 0/8 with flying all over the place... I manage to win game 1 with burn but I failed to do so game 2.
Burn 1 - 2
-3 Day's Undoing
-4 Gitaxian Probe
+3 Huntmaster of the Fells
+2 Vapor Snag
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Feed the Clan
I feel like losing game 1 was pretty much a given (blind probe turn 1 for 2 \o/). Game 2, 2 goyfs win the race. Game 3, he's faster.
Collected Zoo 1 - 1
-3 Stubborn Denial
-4 Monastery Swiftspear
+3 Huntmaster of the Fells
+2 Vapor Snag
+1 Feed the Clan
+1 Day's Undoing
Super hard matchup too I felt. His creatures are too big and Delver / Goyfs are met with bolt / PtE.
Grixis Twin 1 - 2
On the play:
-4 Mishra's Baubble
+2 Vapor Snag
+1 Stubborn Denial
+1 Day's Undoing
On the draw, additionally:
-4 Monastery Swiftspear
+3 Huntmaster of the Fells
+1 Blood Moon
Grind, grind, grind, oops, combo, I win...
First, the deck was really cool to play with. I could feel all the decisions I had to take (and all the mistakes I made along the way) and it was overall really fun to play with Day's Undoing.
However, I also felt like the deck was just not super strong... Maybe it's just bad matchups... Maybe it's the inconsistency you're taking about? On the latter point I totally agree actually, so many times, I felt like I just had the wrong answers...
Anyway, I'll give that kind of playstyle some more tries 'cause I enjoyed it but maybe I'm just not playing the right version? What would you recommend for a metagame with lots of grindy decks (Jund, Grixis Control, UW Control), decent amount of aggro, the occasional Tron and Grixis?
While I really love the deck's interaction, synergy and difficulty when it comes to decision making, I gotta agree that it seems to often...not quite "get there".
Of course some is normal variance (the amounts of 5+ land hands Undoing likes to give me is somewhat silly), but against the relatively mid-range-y Modo meta is seemed to kind of lack punch.
Where games against aggro and combo are mostly just "hope to finish them before dying" (especially Twin is troublesome with Exarchs mucking up the ground for ages and only Flame Slash being effective removal), the midrange decks tend to be able to outlast this deck.
Yes, it's great to fill up on interaction with 2 creatures in play, but giving a decks that are basically "all the value cards - the pile" a fresh 7 to let them deal with the board and refill their card pool isn't great.
And not always is holding the Undoing an option, when they e.g. have a just bounced Angler and a bunch of removal in their hand or it's topdeck time, which is never fun vs BGx.
So, while incredibly fun to play, I don't exactly see the deck's great match-ups yet, though I can at least say that I rarely lost 2-0.
At the very least it was an interesting deck to learn and made me realize that I really love playing Tempo, it's like playing Control, but with a Delver on the board to actually clock them and not just durdle around.
Maybe I should take a look at Monkey-Grow (though I'm not fond of monkeys) or Counter-Cat (dat manabase though. .__.), even though they don't draw as many cards.
As a sidenote: If the consistency issues (or perhaps just my play mistakes ^^) could be eased up some, I'd love to get this one on paper to actually start playing more than just online.
At the moment it just seems a bit too...cute? to throw that much money at it.
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
I'm sure play mistakes are a big part of your lack of success; as stated, these decks are incredibly challenging. That's the main reason I have trouble playing non-grow decks; I like to be challenged.
As for other grow decks in Modern, I recommend Counter-Cat or Monkey Grow. As far as I know, other ones don't exist.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
So it's just me being a scrubby scrub.
That's pretty good news then. ^^
I guess I'll just gotta keep trying and get more games under my belt.
Standard infinite combos giving you a headache and the opponent always has Force of Will?
No matter the issue, there is one simple trick to solve all of your Magic problems!!
~~~To get in on the secret to eternal luck, skill and victory, just follow this link!!~~~
I've been a long time follower of this thread and the MonkeyGrow RUG/Temur Delver thread, but finally decided to post.
I've mostly played tempo style decks, but haven't really been too serious about competitive magic and have only recently been playing at LGS FNM events and SCG events near me. I used to play Standard and switched to Modern after the UG Delver deck rotated out, slowly swapping out the Standard version into a Modern playable version and have tinkered with various RUG, UG and UR combinations, so when ashtonkutcher started brewing with Day's Undoing, I decided to use his primer to test it out at a LGS event last week. I had been doing a bit of playtesting with a few friends who played Merfolk, Jund and Grixis Delver before playing in this, so I have a little familiarity with the deck, but still have a long ways to go to learn it!
Just reporting mys results and observations! We played 4 rounds and I went 2-2.
My decklist is essentially Jordan's stock list with a few changes (mostly because of card availability). I was missing 1 Goyf, so I replaced it with one Hooting Mandrills and my fetchlands were less than ideal. My fetch suite included 4 Polluted Delta, 3 Wooded Foothill and 3 Flooded Strand. In my flex spots, I placed a Sleight of Hand and a Tarfire. (When I get a chance, I'll post the actual deck list).
Round 1: vs Infect (1-2)
Round 2: vs Junk (2-0)
Round 3: vs Living End (1-2)
Round 4: RG Breech (2-0)
Vs. Infect
Game 1: I was on the play and had good opener, although slightly threat heavy. I blind-flipped Delver on turn 2 and went straight into a Monastery Swiftspear and Tarfire on his turn 1 Glistener Elf. He never recovered.
Game 2: I struggled to flip my turn one Delver. I ate a little infect damage, while I dug for an answer to his elf. Couldn't find one and ate a Become Immense for the kill.
Game 3: I slung Lightning Bolt at a couple of threats and aggressively lost life fetching and probing and hit 13. I saw 2x Become Immense in his hand, which I didn't really see as a problem, but I wish I had. He dropped a Dryad Arbor and then a double Immense gave him a 13/13 creature with no resistance.
Thoughts: I made a huge error in how I sideboarded. Game 2, I took out my Day's Undoing for my Forked Bolts, which still seems like the right choice. Game 3, I decided to board out Delvers for 4x Snapcaster Mage. I'm not really sure what I was thinking, since there was no reason to switch to a midrange kind of strategy.
Vs. Junk
Game 1: This one dragged on. I was on the draw. Delver ate a Thoughtseize right away, but I drew into double Young Pyromancer. He got some Lingering Souls tokens out, but I chipped away at him with my elementals. I played undoing and drew into straight business (2 bolts and a snag). He only played a Finks after the undoing and I just bounced his Kitchen Finks, attacked with tons of tokens and bolted him twice for lethal.
Game 2: This one went shorter. He took a mulligan to 5 and didn't play any hand disruption. I blind-flipped a Delver and dropped a Young Pyro. Gitaxian Probe revealed that he had Choke, and 2 Lingering Souls. I was actually pretty happy about the Choke, since I had Undoing and a Shoal in hand. He tried playing it on his turn, but Shoal took care of it. After that, I hit him with tokens and Delver through his spirit tokens, eventually getting the win.
Vs. Living End
Game 1: On the play again. I was glad that I had a Disrupting Shoal in my opener after I saw him cycling a minotaur and a Street Wraith right away. I jammed out 2 Swiftspears early on and boosted them with cantrips. He cycled his creatures until he had 3 mana. Then he waited until my next turn to play Violent Outburst during my combat phase. I hit the Living End with Shoal for x=zero and finished the job the next turn with my Swiftspears.
Game 2: I probably should have took a mulligan, but I had 2 goyfs and a Serum Visions+Probe, so I decided to keep. The game went pretty much the same as last one for my opponent, until it was time to cast outburst. This time, I had no answer and struggled to recover with his board full of lame-o 3/4s.
Game 3: I landed a pyromancer turn two and had the Shoal in hand, but I fetched stupidly and didn't have double blue to counter the Living End. I also forgot that countering a spell with cascade doesn't stop the cascade trigger. So, I pitched Undoing to shoal to counter the outburst, but the cascade went off and I got my parts toasted.
Thoughts: This match should have been mine, but I just fetched like a moron on my last game. The second game, I should probably have held back a goyf knowing that I had no answer to Living End. You live. You learn.
Vs. RG Breach
Game 1: On the play again. I originally pegged this as a Scapeshift deck, since I saw an early Valakuut. The first game I got Delver and double Swiftspears out early. I won out of nowhere with my opponent's life total being 13, by casting a chain of spells and pumping Swiftspears. My opponent looked a little dumbfounded when it happened.
Game 2: I ground my opponent down to 1 life. I had Undoing in my hand, with 4 mana. He had a Stormbreath out. At this point I was rather confused as to what my opponent was playing, since he didn't do much in game and still thought I was playing against Scapeshift (albeit a really weird/bad budget version without blue). I decided to roll the dice and play the Undoing, leaving a Steam Vents up. I hit a snag and bounced his creature to push the last damage through.
Thoughts: This round made me realize how insane Swiftspears can be. Taking an opponent from 13 to 0 from out of nowhere on turn 3 by chaining cards like Probes/Visions/Bolts? That's pretty crazy.
Overall thoughts:
I'm cool with how I did. I could've done better had I not made some slip ups, but no game I played felt un-winnable. In fact, I feel if I had played better, I would have won all my rounds. There's some real potential in this deck and it often plays like the UR version with Treasure Cruise. Obviously, cruise is way better, but Undoing often functions as the way to finish out a game when you've run out of gas. I actually didn't have to cast it that often (only twice), but when I did, it won me the game.
Young Pyro and Swiftspear were all-stars. Swiftspear gets big in a hurry and out of nowhere. Goyf was kind of a dingus during my games. He's just a big dumb beast that your opponent sees coming a mile away. He's still great and I'd never not play him purely because of how efficient he is, but he's kind of lackluster in the element of surprise.
The cards that generally frustrate me the most are good old Delver of Secrets (we've always had a love-hate relationship since he got printed) and Disrupting Shoal. The reason being the variance on both of them. I've often toyed with the idea of dropping Delver for something else, because when he doesn't flip, he's kind of a turd. But the pure fact of the matter is, he's such a low mana investment and when he flips, the 3 power with evasion is such a huge tempo swing. A turn 2 blind flip Delver often wins the game. Disrupting Shoal is another card that has high variance. When it's good, it's insanely good. When it's bad...well, I think it has pretty artwork, so at least it's not an eyesore to look at. I had pretty good luck with both of them during my games at my LGS, but in testing, this has not always been the case. I have a feeling that DS is going to be another card that I have a love-hate relationship with.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
The power of tapping out and leading your opponent into a false sense of being able to play a spell with no worries of interaction from you, is huge. It's greatest power is baiting your opponent into casting something they need to play to get ahead that you can counter. When Shoal works, it's great. Shoaling a Aether Vial when you're on the draw against a Merfolk deck can really mess their strategy up bad (and feels really good).
The card's main problem is that you need to know exactly what spells you need to be using it on, way before you have to cast it and you need to hold the correct pitch for it. It's not like a catch-all counter, like Mana Leak or Stubborn Denial both of which will hit most scary cards your opponent can play, even if you hadn't planned on using it on a specific card.
The 2 for 1 aspect never phased me much. I think people have this misconception that card advantage is always a clear path to victory, but that's not the case when dealing with certain strategies. If that was the case, Goblin Guide would see less play. (OMG he lets your opponent draw cards when he attacks). Tempo doesn't necessarily care about ditching a card if it creates a profitable enough tempo swing.
All that being said, I'm not entirely sure I'm sold on the card. Sometimes I love it. Sometimes I hate staring at it, knowing that what I really need is Spell Snare or a Dispel.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy