Yeah i try to ignore, i heared a lot in my beginning with this deck how Bad my choice is...how Bad my deck (with or without chalice no matter)...later after winning allways i heared how lucky i am and it took a long time until the people was silent. Then i wrote Here and sorry Jordan but you did the same (you are aggressive too sometimes) till you accept my choice because it works for me. Big tournaments: I have 4 childrens and cannot travel much. Biggest ones was 29 player, 52 and 91 + ...each of this days i lost only 1 match ( overall 14 wins and 3 lost and 1 draw) and i think this + all the fnm games i played is enough succes for a man with a big family and his hobby. I dont think i will have ever the possibility for 400 player, but i dont need it.
It's not so much that I accepted your choice because I saw it working for you as I don't really care what you play. I still hold that Chalice is better than Relic main in this metagame (and in most). I'll believe otherwise when/if I see a big finish running Relic instead. The only time I ever ran Relic over Chalice was when GGT Dredge was legal. That said, definitely play whatever you think is best. I have no interest in telling you how to build your deck.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
You See finishes now, but with RG eldrazi using relic Main and it works (i know they have 1 drops and chalice is not perfekt there). You are the opinion this meta is Bad for relic? i have the feeling it is better then most time bevore. Everywhere jund with goyfs, snapcaster decks, and moondecks where more place for endless one is good. Artefact Decks like Lantern and affinity are not played lot which are good situation without chalice. Only bogles and his little rise is not good. But maybe our meta is too different and our experience.
But enough now, i finish my red prison deck in 1-2 Weeks and will play this for some months because i need fresh air. Stompy is great, but not anymore Tier 4, i love brewing with underdogs. By the way, i will use chalice and SSG in red prison, lol ...keep having fun guys
You See finishes now, but with RG eldrazi using relic Main and it works (i know they have 1 drops and chalice is not perfekt there). You are the opinion this meta is Bad for relic? i have the feeling it is better then most time bevore. Everywhere jund with goyfs, snapcaster decks, and moondecks where more place for endless one is good. Artefact Decks like Lantern and affinity are not played lot which are good situation without chalice. Only bogles and his little rise is not good. But maybe our meta is too different and our experience.
For us, yes, certainly I am of the opinion that Chalice is better than Relic in the main. I am not talking about the metagame at large, or cards in a vacuum (which I don't believe in). Everything is contextual.
RG is a pretty bad example; we keep Chalice in against that deck because it does so much work against them. Chalice makes our Mimics and manlands good against removal spells and lets us beat linear aggro/combo decks that rely on one-drops, whereas Relic is mostly a great card against decks that already lose to Smasher.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Zhalfirin void if definitely something the deck could use. I agree. I’ve lost too many matches where you just top deck only lands/serum powder that I feel more consistency is desired after we mulligan.
Think I could be time to swap a land to to the board. It’s only relevant 50% of the time but is huge and synergistic when it is. I used to play 2 gemstone main 1 side with blue tron when the meta was fast. It sucks losing a spot but we often have dead lands to side out in any match. I.e. scavenger grounds, wastes, ghost quarter
I wouldn’t want to go down on Gq. They are too valuable. Sometimes just winning games on basic light matches. Killing man lands Time walking vs tron. Etc.
karn, scion of urza I haven’t heard any chatter about. Also can help smooth out the game. The construct tokens could get kinda big with blinkmoth+chalice +powder ... not sure what slot he’d go in... but maybe 1 main 1 side or just 1-2 side.... I’d have to test it in out “Grindy” package. Hope others do as well.
Agree, and I've had the third Gemstone in the side for the last few days. Recently I've even been trying a fourth copy there. 4 Void has been better than 4 Quarter in my testing. Just having a single Quarter up prevents opponents from activating manlands, flipping Azcanta, etc. so there's little benefit to having a ton of them out. Multiple scries are hugely relevant though.
Karn looks awful on paper. We already have excellent grinding plans and I'm not sure how Karn buffs them at all. It also doesn't do anything besides grind, so we just have no use for it.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I think this is correct as well, 1 GQ is usually sufficient. Hate to cut the Cavern, but yeah scry is just so much more potent. Void is insane and I legitimately believe it’s going to propel our win percentage forward by a few numbers, I really believe it’s that good for us.
Cutting some GQ seems fine, esspecially with incoming damping spere which will hurt tron a lot....so we maybe dont need playset anymore. It is really hard to choose which lands should go out
Haven't tested it yet, but I'm considering dropping the two Seagates, which I think we can all agree on at this point, and cutting some combination of Manlands instead of the Ghost Quarters for 4x Voids. Probably -1 Blink -1 Mutavault.
The way I'm seeing it Manlands and Voids kind of fulfill the same purpose in the deck. It seems most often if you are top decking well then you will be spending your mana each turn dropping some Eldrazi monster, and the if you aren't the Manlands are kind of a transition piece to let you smooth your draws out by still posing as a bit of pressure. While the Voids on the flip side are just scrying you into better top decks in the first place.
I could be totally off here, but 4x Ghost Quarter just seems like it adds major percentage points in a lot of match ups, and being able to run all four copies is a somewhat unique advantage of running CES in the first place. Same with Gemstone
Mainlands have won me so many games. I wouldn't cut any. Six seems decent.
yeah, ive gone down one seagate for a third mutavault recently.
I cut 2nd sea gate for 3rd scavenger ground and have been happy. Let's you recycle scourge and neuter goyf/snapcaster/delve more often. Probably cut that slot, the sea gate and find room in sb for the 3rd gemstone cavern for 3 zhalfirin void when Dominaria is legal. I won't go to less than 2 scavenger/6 lad lands(saw that term on euro coverage) . MIGHT cut 4th GQ but I don't really like that idea atm.
I'm probably gonna cut a seagate for the third scavenger grounds definitely because I hardly ever get anything from sea gate and scavenger helps more in game 1's. Of course though The manabase is gonna get an overhaul once the new zhalfirin void comes out. That card looks sweet. I think I'd initially do +3 taking out 1 GQ at first unless Jordan or other people see something in their early testing. Anyways, here's another LGS report. I went 3-1
0-2 Valakut
Just couldn't get there in time. Game 1 I drew too many lands. Game 2 I had turn 2 thought-knot but he had everything he needed in his hand and draws. Anybody with more knowledge of this matchup know what I should prioritize with my discard? He had Primeval Titan and Scapeshift I took the titan. I feel like I can race this matchup but I have to curve out and I just didn't this time.
2-0 U/G Merfolk
Easy, Game 1 I lead with mimic, I can't remember what he did his first turn, I don't think he did anything oddly? But, I had turn two Chalice on 1 and his hand was full of one drops so he lost quickly. Game 2 I drew 3 removal spells and had double thought-knot. He brought in Vapor Snag which seems awful and Natural State cuz he was scared of chalice but I boarded it out anyways I was on the draw. Actually, that was dumb because it's a one drop, the guy didn't know what he was doing evidently. This matchup can go either way I feel. If you get turn 1 chalice it can be good before they drop a vial. But other than that you just gotta draw your dismembers and contortions for their lords. Once they establish a board presence with 3 or 4 guys it's hard to win from there since they're gonna be unblockable soon. I don't like playing against merfolk but I haven't often with this deck, but I feel it's a 50-50 deal. I sided out the chalices and 3 SSG for 4 Ratchet and 3 contortion. On the play, Idk what I would've done, probably take away the reshapers and mimics. Any advice?
2-0 Burn
Game 1 I had turn 2 Chalice on one and he couldn't do much from there. I dropped Thought-knot next and it was kind of over from there. Game 2 he was on the play but I was able to chalice on 1 to slow him down turn 2. A little later I chaliced for 2 and he never saw his sprees, revelries, or rift bolts and I was at 2 life for 4 turns until I drew into a smasher haha. This match is easy with chalices. Even when they're on the play. Casting 2 mana spells to win isn't very efficient for them.
2-0 Infect
Game 1 I drew both my dismembers and curved from mimic into smasher. He couldn't do anything. Game 2 I drew 3 removal spells and forced him to waste his become immense from a gut shot. Opponent missed an exalted trigger, and I got through with 2 smashers for the game 2 victory. Easy matchup, it's unlikely not to draw a chalice or a removal spells. I don't think Infect plays basic islands either so Ghost quartering their blue source keeps them off of counter magic. I did this and it worked but I don't know what post Gitaxian Probe lists look like since I was on hiatus for awhile after that.
I'm happy with the performance tonight. My only losses came to one of our worst matchups and I beat Infect and burn all while on the play. I tried out a new shuffling technique since I felt I was always getting bad hands with any decks I played and I was very happy with the hands and mulligans I got tonight. Serum powdering 3 times in a row helps of course too
Jordan I’m currently running the list you ran that won Worcester. Love the deck and always will, couple questions, is the list the same currently? And what’s the idea against Elves? I brought in contortion, gut shot, and ratchet bomb, anything I’m missing about the matchup? Felt really bad unless I was chalicing for 1 turn 1
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy struggles against go-wide aggro decks and certain strains of linear combo. Since we can't do much in these "colors" against cards like Through the Breach, much of the sideboard is dedicated to fighting the former.
Depending on the variant I'd consider boarding as if it were collected company and get rid of chalices all together. You have enough spot removal to deal with things that actually matter and ratchet bomb cleans up.
That suggestion is
+ 15
-4 Eldrazi Mimic
-2 Matter Reshaper
-4 Simian Spirit Guide
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Smuggler’s Copter
On a side note not directed at anyone in particular, I think we can stop posting about playing the third scavenger grounds now, as everyone seems to be in agreement.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks Built U Mono U Tron WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground UR Storm C Eldrazi Powder G Mono Green Tron
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy struggles against go-wide aggro decks and certain strains of linear combo. Since we can't do much in these "colors" against cards like Through the Breach, much of the sideboard is dedicated to fighting the former.
Depending on the variant I'd consider boarding as if it were collected company and get rid of chalices all together. You have enough spot removal to deal with things that actually matter and ratchet bomb cleans up.
That suggestion is
+ 15
-4 Eldrazi Mimic
-2 Matter Reshaper
-4 Simian Spirit Guide
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Smuggler’s Copter
On a side note not directed at anyone in particular, I think we can stop posting about playing the third scavenger grounds now, as everyone seems to be in agreement.
Definitely keep Mimic over Relic in this MU. Copter is also a must to fly over chump blockers and loot into interaction. For the record, CoCo decks in general are one of the main reasons we run Copter.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Needle also hits the untap ability of Devoted druid and all abilities of walking ballista. Elves still make infinite mana, and in my meta (specifacally G/W elves) a ballista is still in the main. Just stopping infinite mana and infinite pumps is enough for me.
Surgical is hitting key elves, collected company, chord, and horizon canopy. It is also hitting your scourges when you're on the back foot and need to block.
Relic is probably wrong. The elves player here runs return to the ranks, which is most likely not normal. Matter Reshaper is better against unknown decks.
I'm not a huge fan of chalice in the match up, but understand it's merits. They bring in rec sage and hit it often and early with all coco and chord. More significantly, the fact that they run chord and coco makes it so they can still get their significant one drops down through chalice. I think if almost like a vial match. I'd rather be ready with spot removal as a lot of 1/1s are easy enough to deal with.
I've been back and forth on copter in matchups such as these, but it is probably correct. I was a late adopter of the cards and while I've grown to love it, I still undervalue it at times.
lurker for some time, first time poster to this thread. did a brief search and couldnt find an answer, so here's my question:
are 3x gemstone caverns really needed? primary reason for the question is because i currently only have 2 and dont really want to pop for a 3rd immediately. secondary reason is because its legendary, and we rarely (never?) want to see the second. i get that you powder them away from time-to-time, but thats probably less relevant than drawing the 2nd or 3rd during a match.
thoughts?
I never will go down 3 Main and 1 side, but some of us maybe go down on 2 because wee need room for incoming scryland in dominaria. So playing 2 is maybe ok in some weeks
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
RG is a pretty bad example; we keep Chalice in against that deck because it does so much work against them. Chalice makes our Mimics and manlands good against removal spells and lets us beat linear aggro/combo decks that rely on one-drops, whereas Relic is mostly a great card against decks that already lose to Smasher.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
4 eldrazi temple
2 gemstone caverns
2 scavenger grounds
2 mutavault
4 blinkmoth nexus
3 zhalfirin void
2 wastes
4 ghost quarter
1 gemstone caverns SB
Think I could be time to swap a land to to the board. It’s only relevant 50% of the time but is huge and synergistic when it is. I used to play 2 gemstone main 1 side with blue tron when the meta was fast. It sucks losing a spot but we often have dead lands to side out in any match. I.e. scavenger grounds, wastes, ghost quarter
I wouldn’t want to go down on Gq. They are too valuable. Sometimes just winning games on basic light matches. Killing man lands Time walking vs tron. Etc.
karn, scion of urza I haven’t heard any chatter about. Also can help smooth out the game. The construct tokens could get kinda big with blinkmoth+chalice +powder ... not sure what slot he’d go in... but maybe 1 main 1 side or just 1-2 side.... I’d have to test it in out “Grindy” package. Hope others do as well.
Karn looks awful on paper. We already have excellent grinding plans and I'm not sure how Karn buffs them at all. It also doesn't do anything besides grind, so we just have no use for it.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
The way I'm seeing it Manlands and Voids kind of fulfill the same purpose in the deck. It seems most often if you are top decking well then you will be spending your mana each turn dropping some Eldrazi monster, and the if you aren't the Manlands are kind of a transition piece to let you smooth your draws out by still posing as a bit of pressure. While the Voids on the flip side are just scrying you into better top decks in the first place.
I could be totally off here, but 4x Ghost Quarter just seems like it adds major percentage points in a lot of match ups, and being able to run all four copies is a somewhat unique advantage of running CES in the first place. Same with Gemstone
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
I know what you’re saying though. If we are hitting creatures man lands are less relevant...
Modern
C Colorless Eldrazi Stompy C
WUGC Bant Eldrazi CGUW
WBG Doran Formation GBW
Legacy
C Eldrazi Stompy C
Multiplayer Commander
GR Omnath, Locus of Rage RG
WU Brago, King Eternal UW
BG Slimefoot, the Stowaway GB
yeah, ive gone down one seagate for a third mutavault recently.
I cut 2nd sea gate for 3rd scavenger ground and have been happy. Let's you recycle scourge and neuter goyf/snapcaster/delve more often. Probably cut that slot, the sea gate and find room in sb for the 3rd gemstone cavern for 3 zhalfirin void when Dominaria is legal. I won't go to less than 2 scavenger/6 lad lands(saw that term on euro coverage) . MIGHT cut 4th GQ but I don't really like that idea atm.
0-2 Valakut
Just couldn't get there in time. Game 1 I drew too many lands. Game 2 I had turn 2 thought-knot but he had everything he needed in his hand and draws. Anybody with more knowledge of this matchup know what I should prioritize with my discard? He had Primeval Titan and Scapeshift I took the titan. I feel like I can race this matchup but I have to curve out and I just didn't this time.
2-0 U/G Merfolk
Easy, Game 1 I lead with mimic, I can't remember what he did his first turn, I don't think he did anything oddly? But, I had turn two Chalice on 1 and his hand was full of one drops so he lost quickly. Game 2 I drew 3 removal spells and had double thought-knot. He brought in Vapor Snag which seems awful and Natural State cuz he was scared of chalice but I boarded it out anyways I was on the draw. Actually, that was dumb because it's a one drop, the guy didn't know what he was doing evidently. This matchup can go either way I feel. If you get turn 1 chalice it can be good before they drop a vial. But other than that you just gotta draw your dismembers and contortions for their lords. Once they establish a board presence with 3 or 4 guys it's hard to win from there since they're gonna be unblockable soon. I don't like playing against merfolk but I haven't often with this deck, but I feel it's a 50-50 deal. I sided out the chalices and 3 SSG for 4 Ratchet and 3 contortion. On the play, Idk what I would've done, probably take away the reshapers and mimics. Any advice?
2-0 Burn
Game 1 I had turn 2 Chalice on one and he couldn't do much from there. I dropped Thought-knot next and it was kind of over from there. Game 2 he was on the play but I was able to chalice on 1 to slow him down turn 2. A little later I chaliced for 2 and he never saw his sprees, revelries, or rift bolts and I was at 2 life for 4 turns until I drew into a smasher haha. This match is easy with chalices. Even when they're on the play. Casting 2 mana spells to win isn't very efficient for them.
2-0 Infect
Game 1 I drew both my dismembers and curved from mimic into smasher. He couldn't do anything. Game 2 I drew 3 removal spells and forced him to waste his become immense from a gut shot. Opponent missed an exalted trigger, and I got through with 2 smashers for the game 2 victory. Easy matchup, it's unlikely not to draw a chalice or a removal spells. I don't think Infect plays basic islands either so Ghost quartering their blue source keeps them off of counter magic. I did this and it worked but I don't know what post Gitaxian Probe lists look like since I was on hiatus for awhile after that.
I'm happy with the performance tonight. My only losses came to one of our worst matchups and I beat Infect and burn all while on the play. I tried out a new shuffling technique since I felt I was always getting bad hands with any decks I played and I was very happy with the hands and mulligans I got tonight. Serum powdering 3 times in a row helps of course too
Depending on the variant I'd consider boarding as if it were collected company and get rid of chalices all together. You have enough spot removal to deal with things that actually matter and ratchet bomb cleans up.
That suggestion is
+ 15
-4 Eldrazi Mimic
-2 Matter Reshaper
-4 Simian Spirit Guide
-4 Chalice of the Void
-1 Smuggler’s Copter
On a side note not directed at anyone in particular, I think we can stop posting about playing the third scavenger grounds now, as everyone seems to be in agreement.
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Surgical is hitting key elves, collected company, chord, and horizon canopy. It is also hitting your scourges when you're on the back foot and need to block.
Relic is probably wrong. The elves player here runs return to the ranks, which is most likely not normal. Matter Reshaper is better against unknown decks.
I'm not a huge fan of chalice in the match up, but understand it's merits. They bring in rec sage and hit it often and early with all coco and chord. More significantly, the fact that they run chord and coco makes it so they can still get their significant one drops down through chalice. I think if almost like a vial match. I'd rather be ready with spot removal as a lot of 1/1s are easy enough to deal with.
I've been back and forth on copter in matchups such as these, but it is probably correct. I was a late adopter of the cards and while I've grown to love it, I still undervalue it at times.
U Mono U Tron
WR Boros Burn with one Stomping Ground
UR Storm
C Eldrazi Powder
G Mono Green Tron
are 3x gemstone caverns really needed? primary reason for the question is because i currently only have 2 and dont really want to pop for a 3rd immediately. secondary reason is because its legendary, and we rarely (never?) want to see the second. i get that you powder them away from time-to-time, but thats probably less relevant than drawing the 2nd or 3rd during a match.
thoughts?