I like to have two white fetches because sometimes Gather the Pack mills the other. Every fetch also needs to be able to fetch white and one can only play four Wooded Foothills. Also Fulminator Mage is a consideration.
A good friend of mine, Finnish guy called Ville, is taking Burning Bushes to Vegas. Nice to know that there are other brave souls out there as well.
Last minute possible additions/changes:
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald instead of fourth Copperline Gorge. Has performed nicely in my very limited testing as Delirium is relatively easy to come by and early on it gets you the land you need nevertheless.
1-2 Grove of the Burnwillows instead of fourth Copperline Gorge and/or 10th fetch. Grixis Shadow as a matchup is doable, but certainly not great. Idea is that Leyline takes care of Delve creatures and Snapcaster Mages while Grove manages Death's Shadow's.
I wish you all best of luck at the GP. Looking forward to (at least) short tournament recaps afterwards.
Didn't do too well yesterday at CLT classic. 2-3 before heading home, lost to combo (counters CoCo 2x, +GriselHoard) - Overall, not sure the deck is strong enough (with me piloting at least) to do well at a big tourney. For the two matches I won, the only thing Vengevine did was act as 4/3 haste creature for four. Seems (to me) we have to play a lot of sub-optimal cards (Gather the pack, Greenbelt, faithless, etc.) to enable Vengevine...... Almost wondering if Naya revolt zoo would be better.... but that is a completely diff deck discussion.
Anyhow, Switching to Boros Burn for GP Vegas cos I know it pretty well.
Driven // Despair, with our go wide strategy, making all our creatures trample at 2-cmc with a chance to draw card is definitely worth it even without splashing black for the aftermath, the cmc is very cheap!
Yeah, Claim//Fame's reveal has cemented my near future plan for my deck of this ilk (mine was never Vengevine centric anyway - in part because I don't own them so am counting on a reprint in a Masters set to make them affordable) - I had been leaning towards mono-red (Looting/Neonate, Flamewake, KariZevsExpertise, Superion, BTEs, at least one and perhaps both flavors of Bushwhacker) though Claim/Fame may push me to add a black splash.
Basically, a merger of this deck concept and 8Whack.
He is running a playset of the proto-herbalist, Burning-Tree Emissary. Which alone provides the mana for a T2 Bushwhacker. Though I agree it needs T1 discard, so that t2 bushwhacker can pull up a Vengevine with it.
I'm tuning my mono-red take on this deck concept now. It's basically a hybrid of 8-whack and the red/artifact bits of this deck.
Yeh I just got the crazy looting double vengevine draw in testing last night. T1 looting to drop 2 venges, t2 double bte into bushwhacker and swing for 18. Can't count on that all the time but oh, when it happens...
Has there been any thought or discussion at all about whether Basking Rootwalla has a potential place in this deck? With all the self-discarding we're doing to get that Vengevine into grave, if we pitch that Rootwalla along with it (or after it), we get to cast it for 0, which gets us halfway to the Vengevine trigger.
Plays like T1 Faithless Looting to pitch Vengevine+, and then T2 Insolent Neonate or Bloodrage Brawler to pitch-cast the Basking Rootwalla and bring up Venge(s). Or after doing anything T1, a T2 Looting pitching Rootwalla and Vengevine, followed by a now-1-cost Hollow One brings in Venge.
It's not as reliable a free-creature as BTE, and not as valuable a pitch-card as Vengevine or Flamewake Phoenix, but the fact that it can fill in as either - it pays your pitch 'cost' coming into play AND it serves as a zero-net-cost creature to get to the 2-creatures-in-a-turn Venge trigger - makes it relatively versatile here.
I goldfished it and I know this is going to sound presumptuous, but I'm not impressed. There are quite a few unsatisfying things about the deck:
- Looting and Reunion can't make Hollow One cost 0 by themselves. You need to pair them with Street Wraith.
- Swiftspear doesn't get pumped by Wraith. Flameblade Adept seems better in that slot. The Wraiths just strike me as wasted if the only synergy they have is with Hollow One, without Adept/Death's Shadow/Tarmogoyf in the deck.
- You can run out of cards in hand, between mulligans and Looting, which keeps you off Vengevine and Cathartic Reunion. Dredge doesn't have this problem because it has Life from the Loam. The Superion build has Gather the Pack to refill.
- The Goblin Guide in the SB seems out of place. He mentions in the video that it's for going under grave hate, but I'm not convinced that one extra 1-drop will make a difference. What would make a difference is a card like Domri Rade (which he does play) - a big spell that ignores their hate and advances your plan.
- 2 Leylines is a strange number, given that if you are playing Leylines, you want 4 of them to maximize the chances of getting one in your opener. In the past some Storm decks had 2 Leyline of Sanctity to fight discard, which was questionable. Now they play Pieces of the Puzzle instead, which isn't dead if you don't draw it in your opener. If I could only devote 2 slots to grave hate, I'd rather they be Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre.
- The Roasts should be Lightning Axes. You'd cut Neonates for them, so you don't end up with too many loot effects chewing up your hand.
- Legion Loyalist deserves a place somewhere, probably over one of the Guides. It makes it so your 4/4s don't just get chumped.
Since this is a thread about Myr Superion I hope no-one will be too offended if I make comparisons between the Hollow One build and the Superion build. If you're already thinking "of course izzet is going to sing praises about Superion ", feel free to skip everything below.
- Hollow One has 4 free creatures (the Hollow Ones themselves) to enable Vengevine. Superion has 8 (BTE and Herbalists).
- Hollow One has a lot of ways to get Vengevine into the graveyard from the hand (Looting, Neonate, Reunion). Superion has ways to get Vengevine into the graveyard from the hand and the library (Looting, Neonate, Commune, Gather). This means you don't need to draw Vengevine to reanimate it. Dredgevine worked on the same principle: you had Looting and Lotleth Troll to get Vengevine into your graveyard if it was in your hand, and Stinkweed Imp if it wasn't.
- On the subject of the Communes and Gathers, those also help feed the graveyard for Mandrills. One Commune/Gather literally enables Mandrills to be delve-casted for G, all by itself. Cathartic Reunion can't claim that.
- Superion plays through grave hate better. They go T2 RIP, you go T2 BTE/Herbalists into Superion. Now they're taking 7 damage a turn if they don't do anything. T2 multiple BTEs into Bushwhacker also hits like a truck (with haste). T2 Reunion, Street Wraith, Hollow One is 4 power.
I've seen a lot of talk about Hollow One decks over the past week. Any thoughts on going RB? I've been trying this out below and preferring it to what Green offers. Not sure if Mindlash Sliver would fit better as Flameblade Adept, but it has more synergy with Call to the Netherworld and Vengevine.
I've seen a lot of talk about Hollow One decks over the past week. Any thoughts on going RB? I've been trying this out below and preferring it to what Green offers. Not sure if Mindlash Sliver would fit better as Flameblade Adept, but it has more synergy with Call to the Netherworld and Vengevine.
Don't play Simian Spirit Guide. This deck already loses enough CA by playing Looting and Neonate, you don't need to lose even more.
I don't see what you see in Mindlash Sliver, care to explain? It's like a bad Insolent Neonate that costs mana to activate. Sliver, sac to discard Vengevine, 1-drop costs 3 mana in total. And costing mana to discard defeats the purpose of Hollow One.
I've tried Call to the Netherworld in madness and didn't like it. It refunds 1 card to any discard effect for free, but so does Squee, Goblin Nabob, and Squee doesn't require you to have a black creature in your graveyard.
I've seen a lot of talk about Hollow One decks over the past week. Any thoughts on going RB? I've been trying this out below and preferring it to what Green offers. Not sure if Mindlash Sliver would fit better as Flameblade Adept, but it has more synergy with Call to the Netherworld and Vengevine.
Don't play Simian Spirit Guide. This deck already loses enough CA by playing Looting and Neonate, you don't need to lose even more.
I don't see what you see in Mindlash Sliver, care to explain? It's like a bad Insolent Neonate that costs mana to activate. Sliver, sac to discard Vengevine, 1-drop costs 3 mana in total. And costing mana to discard defeats the purpose of Hollow One.
I've tried Call to the Netherworld in madness and didn't like it. It refunds 1 card to any discard effect for free, but so does Squee, Goblin Nabob, and Squee doesn't require you to have a black creature in your graveyard.
Yeesh, feels like I'm being interrogated! Hopefully you didn't mean to come across aggressive, not a great way to welcome someone to your thread if you ask me
The JGM list is more like a burn deck whereas this deck feels more like a combo deck since you're relying on commune/gather to pick up pieces before exploding. While I've only play the Superion build extensively, I feel like the main benefit JGM's list has is that it is a little more consistent and more resilient to discard. That being said, I think the reason why JGM's list was doing so well was because people weren't expecting the temur battle rage and become immense. People at the event seemed to figure this out later and he had difficulty replicating his earlier success. The superion build, i think, does better when the surprise factor is gone. While it was a pretty nice list, I don't really expect it to be a competitive deck in the near future, but who knows.
Yeesh, feels like I'm being interrogated! Hopefully you didn't mean to come across aggressive, not a great way to welcome someone to your thread if you ask me
I don't think I'm being aggressive in that post. You asked for thoughts, I gave you mine, with reasons. The only thing I asked of you is why you think Mindlash Sliver warrants a slot, because I can't think of a scenario where it could be considered good. That barely constitutes an interrogation. I'm still interested in your explanation, by the way.
I am curt when it comes to Simian Spirit Guide, but believe me when I say that I could write upwards of a thousand words on the misapplications of that card. Suffice to say, any time there is a combo or aggro deck, someone will try to jam SSG into it to make it faster. I've seen it happen with Storm (T1 Pyromancer Ascension), Amulet (T1 Primeval Titan), Dredge (T1 Cathartic Reunion), Cheeri0s (T1 Sram, Senior Edificer). Every single time, the slower, SSG-less build has won out. Make no mistake, SSG is a powerful card, and there are decks where it is correct to play it. This isn't one of those decks though (explaining why would necessitate a thousand-word essay), so please put those lands back in.
A good friend of mine, Finnish guy called Ville, is taking Burning Bushes to Vegas. Nice to know that there are other brave souls out there as well.
Last minute possible additions/changes:
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald instead of fourth Copperline Gorge. Has performed nicely in my very limited testing as Delirium is relatively easy to come by and early on it gets you the land you need nevertheless.
1-2 Grove of the Burnwillows instead of fourth Copperline Gorge and/or 10th fetch. Grixis Shadow as a matchup is doable, but certainly not great. Idea is that Leyline takes care of Delve creatures and Snapcaster Mages while Grove manages Death's Shadow's.
I wish you all best of luck at the GP. Looking forward to (at least) short tournament recaps afterwards.
Anyhow, Switching to Boros Burn for GP Vegas cos I know it pretty well.
Driven // Despair, with our go wide strategy, making all our creatures trample at 2-cmc with a chance to draw card is definitely worth it even without splashing black for the aftermath, the cmc is very cheap!
what do you think guys?
Basically, a merger of this deck concept and 8Whack.
I'm tuning my mono-red take on this deck concept now. It's basically a hybrid of 8-whack and the red/artifact bits of this deck.
Plays like T1 Faithless Looting to pitch Vengevine+, and then T2 Insolent Neonate or Bloodrage Brawler to pitch-cast the Basking Rootwalla and bring up Venge(s). Or after doing anything T1, a T2 Looting pitching Rootwalla and Vengevine, followed by a now-1-cost Hollow One brings in Venge.
It's not as reliable a free-creature as BTE, and not as valuable a pitch-card as Vengevine or Flamewake Phoenix, but the fact that it can fill in as either - it pays your pitch 'cost' coming into play AND it serves as a zero-net-cost creature to get to the 2-creatures-in-a-turn Venge trigger - makes it relatively versatile here.
Another card I've been poking at in blacksplash builds (a consideration for Claim // Fame) is Heir of Falkenrath.
Thanks for saving me from a potentially illegal brew.
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Insolent Neonate
3 Hooting Mandrils
3 Hollow One
3 Reckless Bushwacker
1 Greenbelt Rampager
3 Flamewake Phoenix
3 Street Wraith
2 Cathartic Reunion
3 Commune with the Gods
3 Gather the Pack
3 Lightning Axe
3 Goblin Guide
2 Hooting Mandrills
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Street Wraith
4 Vengevine
4 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Copperline Gorge
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Stomping Ground
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Faithless Looting
1 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Blood Moon
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Feed the Clan
1 Domri Rade
2 Roast
Need a collection tracker? Use EchoMTG here: https://www.echomtg.com/r/7bb6961d/
Join the Zoo Discord: https://discord.gg/Yu6eTSTrzA
- Looting and Reunion can't make Hollow One cost 0 by themselves. You need to pair them with Street Wraith.
- Swiftspear doesn't get pumped by Wraith. Flameblade Adept seems better in that slot. The Wraiths just strike me as wasted if the only synergy they have is with Hollow One, without Adept/Death's Shadow/Tarmogoyf in the deck.
- You can run out of cards in hand, between mulligans and Looting, which keeps you off Vengevine and Cathartic Reunion. Dredge doesn't have this problem because it has Life from the Loam. The Superion build has Gather the Pack to refill.
- The Goblin Guide in the SB seems out of place. He mentions in the video that it's for going under grave hate, but I'm not convinced that one extra 1-drop will make a difference. What would make a difference is a card like Domri Rade (which he does play) - a big spell that ignores their hate and advances your plan.
- 2 Leylines is a strange number, given that if you are playing Leylines, you want 4 of them to maximize the chances of getting one in your opener. In the past some Storm decks had 2 Leyline of Sanctity to fight discard, which was questionable. Now they play Pieces of the Puzzle instead, which isn't dead if you don't draw it in your opener. If I could only devote 2 slots to grave hate, I'd rather they be Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction or Faerie Macabre.
- The Roasts should be Lightning Axes. You'd cut Neonates for them, so you don't end up with too many loot effects chewing up your hand.
- Legion Loyalist deserves a place somewhere, probably over one of the Guides. It makes it so your 4/4s don't just get chumped.
Since this is a thread about Myr Superion I hope no-one will be too offended if I make comparisons between the Hollow One build and the Superion build. If you're already thinking "of course izzet is going to sing praises about Superion ", feel free to skip everything below.
- Hollow One has 4 free creatures (the Hollow Ones themselves) to enable Vengevine. Superion has 8 (BTE and Herbalists).
- Hollow One has a lot of ways to get Vengevine into the graveyard from the hand (Looting, Neonate, Reunion). Superion has ways to get Vengevine into the graveyard from the hand and the library (Looting, Neonate, Commune, Gather). This means you don't need to draw Vengevine to reanimate it. Dredgevine worked on the same principle: you had Looting and Lotleth Troll to get Vengevine into your graveyard if it was in your hand, and Stinkweed Imp if it wasn't.
- On the subject of the Communes and Gathers, those also help feed the graveyard for Mandrills. One Commune/Gather literally enables Mandrills to be delve-casted for G, all by itself. Cathartic Reunion can't claim that.
- Superion plays through grave hate better. They go T2 RIP, you go T2 BTE/Herbalists into Superion. Now they're taking 7 damage a turn if they don't do anything. T2 multiple BTEs into Bushwhacker also hits like a truck (with haste). T2 Reunion, Street Wraith, Hollow One is 4 power.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Mindlash Sliver
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Hollow One
4 Vengevine
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
Sorceries (16)
4 Call to the Netherworld
4 Thoughtseize
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Shattering Spree
2 Fatal Push
3 Collective Brutality
3 Big Game Hunter
2 Blood Moon
Going down to 4 BTEs from 8 made me drop Superion though. This version dumps hand so fast I've replaced it with Lupine Prototype.
I don't see what you see in Mindlash Sliver, care to explain? It's like a bad Insolent Neonate that costs mana to activate. Sliver, sac to discard Vengevine, 1-drop costs 3 mana in total. And costing mana to discard defeats the purpose of Hollow One.
I've tried Call to the Netherworld in madness and didn't like it. It refunds 1 card to any discard effect for free, but so does Squee, Goblin Nabob, and Squee doesn't require you to have a black creature in your graveyard.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I am curt when it comes to Simian Spirit Guide, but believe me when I say that I could write upwards of a thousand words on the misapplications of that card. Suffice to say, any time there is a combo or aggro deck, someone will try to jam SSG into it to make it faster. I've seen it happen with Storm (T1 Pyromancer Ascension), Amulet (T1 Primeval Titan), Dredge (T1 Cathartic Reunion), Cheeri0s (T1 Sram, Senior Edificer). Every single time, the slower, SSG-less build has won out. Make no mistake, SSG is a powerful card, and there are decks where it is correct to play it. This isn't one of those decks though (explaining why would necessitate a thousand-word essay), so please put those lands back in.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.