Definitely at least worth SB consideration. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel that izzetmage's list is really solid. My sideboard is a bit different (don't own any moons yet) but my maindeck is identical and I can't bring myself to change anything. It works just, all the synergy is in the right place.
I could see maybe swapping 1x maindeck Bolt for Lavamancer bit I personally wouldn't try it
has anyone played this in a large tournament or has anyone made a video playing this deck in mtgo?
i'm a paper magic player and i'd like to see the deck being played before i buy the missing lands to build this, thanks!
Has anyone tried CoCo in this deck? The way it looks is you can main 1 this and pull out 2 guys. Hopefully 1 is a mana producer that can then cast bushwhacker. I know in the current build that is unlikely but adding in a few priests will increase the odds of this happening. Plus Eot superions could swing a game or 2.
Interesting tech but to be honest I rarely get to 4 Mana. I usually end up discarding lands to looting, since we usually only need 3 to combo off.
But I digress..as mentioned before the list is so solid. I feel I would need to cut 3x cards just to add 2x Company, since I would want the extra land.
I'm working on a list that runs birds. Same land count basically but the extra mana makes it more consistent.
Basically if turn 1 bird survives you can turn 2 cast nanonite. Sac to pitch venge to the yard then cast BTE and bushwhacker for a 10 damage swing. Now all those parts have to fall into place so more often I can turn 2 loot commune to set up a very explosive turn 3 play.
Also trying out 2 Greater Gargadon to save from sweepers and still get value. also saves Vine from exile effects. And if they ever wrath or something they can be severely punished.
has anyone played this in a large tournament or has anyone made a video playing this deck in mtgo?
i'm a paper magic player and i'd like to see the deck being played before i buy the missing lands to build this, thanks!
Unfortunately not, I don't have MTGO.
Are you missing only the lands? This deck's mana base is not unconventional by any means, plenty of other decks use fetches, shocks and fastlands, even the RG ones. It won't be hard to sell out of those lands or find another deck for them if this one ends up not to your liking.
Arguably. The plus about greenseeker is it doesn't just die to anger or other sweepers where mentor does. You still get the lands where all of mentors work will be lost also. That said mentor does play better with Superion and bushwhackers. So could go either way there.
Mentor ramps but only in green. If for some reason you are stuck out of red then seeker is better.
Faithless Looting, Gather the Pack and Commune with the Gods, i find them as an accelerant for the deck and maintains our gas by providing us enough creatures. they can filter what creature we can get, provide cards in the graveyard to help early delve for mandrills, vengevine is just a bonus on this. i agree that the decklist posted here really felt solid!
imo, there's no need to have a ramp on this deck, we dont have any use for that excess mana
btw, for budget considerations is it ok to replace copperline gorge with rootbound crag? -4 copperline gorge, +3 rootbound crag, +1 stomping ground
This is an aggro deck, so a land that ETBs untapped would be better than Crag. I'd go with Karplusan Forest. Given the amount of colored mana you need, City of Brass and Mana Confluence are not far behind.
#There are also the Hooting Mandrills but they would work pretty well with less enablers and playing naturally while cracking fetchlands.
If you don't play the enablers or Vengevines, then what you have is Bushwhacker Zoo. Of course, that's a playable deck on its own. The advantage of playing Vengevines is that you can recover from board wipes better, while still presenting a fast clock. In fact T2 Vengevine has a higher damage output damage than T1 Wild Nacatl. You also have a better nut draw (T1 discard 2 Vengevines, T2 BTE + creature).
My question was not about whether Vengevine or the enablers should be played in the first place but rather if 16x enablers aren't too much and shouldn't be reduced to 12x or 8x ?
My question was not about whether Vengevine or the enablers should be played in the first place but rather if 16x enablers aren't too much and shouldn't be reduced to 12x or 8x ?
Oh, I see. 16 enablers main is fine. You don't know what your opponent is playing in G1, so you can't go wrong by playing cards which help your deck do its thing. Postboard you can cut the less vital enablers for cards which mess with your opponent's plans.
This deck looks amazing! I've always loved Dredgevine, but it was always a bit too weak to graveyard-hate and the last couple of months it was impossible to play, with everyone and their mother running loads of graveyard-hate. This deck seems a lot more resilient, but still has the potential of getting some insane hands (15 power on T2? Yes, please).
I gotta buy a couple of cards (or dig through my collection) and then I'm definitely going to test this out. Already looking forward to it!
I'm still enjoying the deck (even if I'm not enjoying much success like I have in the past with pre-ban Dredge, Suicide Zoo, etc.).
In particular, I'm currently a match away from 5-0 in a league, and in the past six games, I've played against NINE Relic of Progenitus. I won both matches (Skred Red, BW Eldrazi Processors) 2-1. Some of the games were won through hate because of mana constraints (could only tap Relic), and some were won because of Myr Superion draws.
I'm still enjoying the deck (even if I'm not enjoying much success like I have in the past with pre-ban Dredge, Suicide Zoo, etc.).
In particular, I'm currently a match away from 5-0 in a league, and in the past six games, I've played against NINE Relic of Progenitus. I won both matches (Skred Red, BW Eldrazi Processors) 2-1. Some of the games were won through hate because of mana constraints (could only tap Relic), and some were won because of Myr Superion draws.
Good to hear you can straight up win matches through hate. That's the thing I've always hated about Dredgevine, how utter weak it is when your opponent plays a lot of GY-hate.
I've ordered the last few cards I needed, probably gonna test it out tommorrow against a friend, who plays Kiki-Chord, 8Whack and a Boros Blink brew.
imo, there's no need to have a ramp on this deck, we dont have any use for that excess mana
btw, for budget considerations is it ok to replace copperline gorge with rootbound crag? -4 copperline gorge, +3 rootbound crag, +1 stomping ground
This is an aggro deck, so a land that ETBs untapped would be better than Crag. I'd go with Karplusan Forest. Given the amount of colored mana you need, City of Brass and Mana Confluence are not far behind.
What about Gemstone Mine? Gets all the colored mana without the life cost, this deck doesn't look like it needs to have an abundance of land for a long game, and a T1 Gemstone Mine that conveniently makes itself go away on T3 ... can set up a Herbalists revolt trigger on T3.
imo, there's no need to have a ramp on this deck, we dont have any use for that excess mana
btw, for budget considerations is it ok to replace copperline gorge with rootbound crag? -4 copperline gorge, +3 rootbound crag, +1 stomping ground
This is an aggro deck, so a land that ETBs untapped would be better than Crag. I'd go with Karplusan Forest. Given the amount of colored mana you need, City of Brass and Mana Confluence are not far behind.
What about Gemstone Mine? Gets all the colored mana without the life cost, this deck doesn't look like it needs to have an abundance of land for a long game, and a T1 Gemstone Mine that conveniently makes itself go away on T3 ... can set up a Herbalists revolt trigger on T3.
Gemstone Mine would indeed also work, we don't need a lot of mana and the sacrifice-effect would help trigger Revolt over time.
Well, look at that. I'll be able to play Blood Moons in the side after all.
I tried playing the OP list with
-4 Copperline Gorge
-2 Mountain
+4 Gemstone Mine
+2 Blood Crypt
in order to play Grisly Salvage instead of Commune with the Gods and some Fatal Push in the sideboard. It was ... ok. I think around this time I was also experimenting with Wild Cantor, so that may have marred my testing results. In a 75 without Blood Moon, though, I like Grisly.
Well, look at that. I'll be able to play Blood Moons in the side after all.
I tried playing the OP list with
-4 Copperline Gorge
-2 Mountain
+4 Gemstone Mine
+2 Blood Crypt
in order to play Grisly Salvage instead of Commune with the Gods and some Fatal Push in the sideboard. It was ... ok. I think around this time I was also experimenting with Wild Cantor, so that may have marred my testing results. In a 75 without Blood Moon, though, I like Grisly.
What's the reason for the change to Salvage instead of Commune? Is it the instant speed or the option to pick a land? Personally I think it would make the deck more susceptible to Blood Moon to change it to R/G/b. I have put two Dismember in my sideboard to combat creature decks with low cost/high power and toughness.
So, I fired up the deck for the first time tonight against a friend and, goddamn, this deck is a beast. I could outrace his 8Whack deck, which says a lot, so he had to use some of his Goblins to block. But when a Goblin deck needs to block, it's going downhill fast for them, since the Gather/Commune-package keeps on giving us gas. Casting a Commune and finding a BTE/Herbalists and a Myr/Whacker is nasty though, if you have neither in hand, Gather the Pack is so much better and it's extremely easy to activate Spell Mastery.
His Kiki-Chord deck was bit harder, with Path to Exile for Myr and Vengevine, plus he plays Anger of the Gods in his sideboard. The Walls in his deck are good blockers, but Wall of Roots can't use the mana ability or it dies to our big creatures. We played three matches with Kiki-Chord and I've won them all with 2-0, 2-1 and 2-0. Our deck can consistently get an immense amount of power on the board on turn two, in any combination of BTE/Herbalists, Myr, Vengevine and Bushwhacker. And Monkeys to help finish the job. Oddly enough I've only once saw a Neonate.
We also tried a match against his GR Dragons brew, but you can hardly call that a match. Game 1 I killed him on Turn 3 and Game 2 on Turn 4. The Lightning Bolts are excellent to finish the job.
I'm going to try to attend the next FNM (on tuesdays...) at my local gameshop, but I don't know if I can attend the next one. If I can, I surely will test out this deck to see how it holds up against Jund, GR Tron, Burn, Dredge, Merfolk and Skred Red. I've already changed the sideboard slightly, to test out Feed the Clan for the burn match-up, since all our big creatures are 4+ power. I'll keep you guys posted.
Gemstone Mine: could be worth it in a 3-color build. The main advantages are that it provides any color, and ETBs untapped if it's your fourth land (for when you want to hardcast Vengevine, or play Commune/Gather > BTE > Superion/Bushwhacker in one turn). Saccing itself for revolt is a nice bonus, but I usually play Herbalists at the first opportunity. It can also turn Copperline Gorge back on if you have 3 lands and one of them is a Mine at 1 counter.
Grisly Salvage: I think Commune is better, two examples to demonstrate why:
1) T2 Herbalists, Commune. If the Commune was a Salvage instead, you wouldn't be able to cast it.
2) T3 BTE/Herbalists, Commune (leaving a R/G source untapped), hit Neonate/Mandrills, play Neonate/Mandrills and get Vengevine back. If the Commune was a Salvage, you're locked into R (with BTE) or G (with Herbalists) floating, which spells disaster if the creature revealed off Commune was of the wrong color.
The main issue is that you can't play Salvage off Herbalists or BTE mana.
Side note, I believe it's right to play T2 Herbalists into Commune/Gather instead of saving the Herbalists for later. My reasoning is that revolt may not be available later on, or you might not be able to make full use of GG. Besides, what are you saving it for? If you had Myr Superion in hand, you'd play T2 Herbalists into Superion instead. If it's Vengevine, Commune/Gather would draw you into a creature to replace the Herbalists anyway.
Is it better by the way to go Fetch --> Herbalists --> Herbalists --> Myr Superion on T2, with a Commune or Gather in hand? Or is it better to save the second Herbalists to see what you can get from the Commune/Gather? Last night I noticed that I did the first play quite regularly and took a mental note afterwards that it might not have been the best play. I haven't been punished for it really, but now that I'm thinking about it, seeing any combination of Myr, Vengevine or Bushwhacker on the Commune/Gather would be quite the disaster in the first case scenario.
for me i would play it safe by fetch -> herbalist -> myr superion -> pass the turn.
this will ensure i have a good board presence at turn 2 and not over committing.
and i think there's a higher chance to have an explosive turn 3 with the remaining hand (herbalist & commune/gather) + turn 3 draw.
I could see maybe swapping 1x maindeck Bolt for Lavamancer bit I personally wouldn't try it
Draft My Cube!
i'm a paper magic player and i'd like to see the deck being played before i buy the missing lands to build this, thanks!
But I digress..as mentioned before the list is so solid. I feel I would need to cut 3x cards just to add 2x Company, since I would want the extra land.
Draft My Cube!
Basically if turn 1 bird survives you can turn 2 cast nanonite. Sac to pitch venge to the yard then cast BTE and bushwhacker for a 10 damage swing. Now all those parts have to fall into place so more often I can turn 2 loot commune to set up a very explosive turn 3 play.
Also trying out 2 Greater Gargadon to save from sweepers and still get value. also saves Vine from exile effects. And if they ever wrath or something they can be severely punished.
It serves the purpose of being a turn 1 Discard-Outlet and tutors for lands, which let us keep fringe 1-Land Openers.
Green @ it's best
Are you missing only the lands? This deck's mana base is not unconventional by any means, plenty of other decks use fetches, shocks and fastlands, even the RG ones. It won't be hard to sell out of those lands or find another deck for them if this one ends up not to your liking.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Mentor ramps but only in green. If for some reason you are stuck out of red then seeker is better.
btw, for budget considerations is it ok to replace copperline gorge with rootbound crag? -4 copperline gorge, +3 rootbound crag, +1 stomping ground
#Is it really necessary to run 16x enablers (Insolent Neonate, Faithless Looting, Gather the Pack and Commune with the Gods) just to get Vengevine in the yard ?
It just seems like too much setup for one creature (which won't win the game on the spot) and takes away a lot of card slots in the deck.
#There are also the Hooting Mandrills but they would work pretty well with less enablers and playing naturally while cracking fetchlands.
Faithless Looting, Gather the Pack and Commune with the Gods, i find them as an accelerant for the deck and maintains our gas by providing us enough creatures. they can filter what creature we can get, provide cards in the graveyard to help early delve for mandrills, vengevine is just a bonus on this. i agree that the decklist posted here really felt solid!
If you don't play the enablers or Vengevines, then what you have is Bushwhacker Zoo. Of course, that's a playable deck on its own. The advantage of playing Vengevines is that you can recover from board wipes better, while still presenting a fast clock. In fact T2 Vengevine has a higher damage output damage than T1 Wild Nacatl. You also have a better nut draw (T1 discard 2 Vengevines, T2 BTE + creature).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I gotta buy a couple of cards (or dig through my collection) and then I'm definitely going to test this out. Already looking forward to it!
In particular, I'm currently a match away from 5-0 in a league, and in the past six games, I've played against NINE Relic of Progenitus. I won both matches (Skred Red, BW Eldrazi Processors) 2-1. Some of the games were won through hate because of mana constraints (could only tap Relic), and some were won because of Myr Superion draws.
Good to hear you can straight up win matches through hate. That's the thing I've always hated about Dredgevine, how utter weak it is when your opponent plays a lot of GY-hate.
I've ordered the last few cards I needed, probably gonna test it out tommorrow against a friend, who plays Kiki-Chord, 8Whack and a Boros Blink brew.
What about Gemstone Mine? Gets all the colored mana without the life cost, this deck doesn't look like it needs to have an abundance of land for a long game, and a T1 Gemstone Mine that conveniently makes itself go away on T3 ... can set up a Herbalists revolt trigger on T3.
Gemstone Mine would indeed also work, we don't need a lot of mana and the sacrifice-effect would help trigger Revolt over time.
I tried playing the OP list with
-4 Copperline Gorge
-2 Mountain
+4 Gemstone Mine
+2 Blood Crypt
in order to play Grisly Salvage instead of Commune with the Gods and some Fatal Push in the sideboard. It was ... ok. I think around this time I was also experimenting with Wild Cantor, so that may have marred my testing results. In a 75 without Blood Moon, though, I like Grisly.
What's the reason for the change to Salvage instead of Commune? Is it the instant speed or the option to pick a land? Personally I think it would make the deck more susceptible to Blood Moon to change it to R/G/b. I have put two Dismember in my sideboard to combat creature decks with low cost/high power and toughness.
So, I fired up the deck for the first time tonight against a friend and, goddamn, this deck is a beast. I could outrace his 8Whack deck, which says a lot, so he had to use some of his Goblins to block. But when a Goblin deck needs to block, it's going downhill fast for them, since the Gather/Commune-package keeps on giving us gas. Casting a Commune and finding a BTE/Herbalists and a Myr/Whacker is nasty though, if you have neither in hand, Gather the Pack is so much better and it's extremely easy to activate Spell Mastery.
His Kiki-Chord deck was bit harder, with Path to Exile for Myr and Vengevine, plus he plays Anger of the Gods in his sideboard. The Walls in his deck are good blockers, but Wall of Roots can't use the mana ability or it dies to our big creatures. We played three matches with Kiki-Chord and I've won them all with 2-0, 2-1 and 2-0. Our deck can consistently get an immense amount of power on the board on turn two, in any combination of BTE/Herbalists, Myr, Vengevine and Bushwhacker. And Monkeys to help finish the job. Oddly enough I've only once saw a Neonate.
We also tried a match against his GR Dragons brew, but you can hardly call that a match. Game 1 I killed him on Turn 3 and Game 2 on Turn 4. The Lightning Bolts are excellent to finish the job.
I'm going to try to attend the next FNM (on tuesdays...) at my local gameshop, but I don't know if I can attend the next one. If I can, I surely will test out this deck to see how it holds up against Jund, GR Tron, Burn, Dredge, Merfolk and Skred Red. I've already changed the sideboard slightly, to test out Feed the Clan for the burn match-up, since all our big creatures are 4+ power. I'll keep you guys posted.
Gemstone Mine: could be worth it in a 3-color build. The main advantages are that it provides any color, and ETBs untapped if it's your fourth land (for when you want to hardcast Vengevine, or play Commune/Gather > BTE > Superion/Bushwhacker in one turn). Saccing itself for revolt is a nice bonus, but I usually play Herbalists at the first opportunity. It can also turn Copperline Gorge back on if you have 3 lands and one of them is a Mine at 1 counter.
Grisly Salvage: I think Commune is better, two examples to demonstrate why:
1) T2 Herbalists, Commune. If the Commune was a Salvage instead, you wouldn't be able to cast it.
2) T3 BTE/Herbalists, Commune (leaving a R/G source untapped), hit Neonate/Mandrills, play Neonate/Mandrills and get Vengevine back. If the Commune was a Salvage, you're locked into R (with BTE) or G (with Herbalists) floating, which spells disaster if the creature revealed off Commune was of the wrong color.
The main issue is that you can't play Salvage off Herbalists or BTE mana.
Side note, I believe it's right to play T2 Herbalists into Commune/Gather instead of saving the Herbalists for later. My reasoning is that revolt may not be available later on, or you might not be able to make full use of GG. Besides, what are you saving it for? If you had Myr Superion in hand, you'd play T2 Herbalists into Superion instead. If it's Vengevine, Commune/Gather would draw you into a creature to replace the Herbalists anyway.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
for me i would play it safe by fetch -> herbalist -> myr superion -> pass the turn.
this will ensure i have a good board presence at turn 2 and not over committing.
and i think there's a higher chance to have an explosive turn 3 with the remaining hand (herbalist & commune/gather) + turn 3 draw.
what would others do with this kind of hand