@yriel
Most of it looks fine. I'm not a fan of Consulate Crackdown, but hey, test it out.
The three I see issues with are:
Tron :
+ 1 cast out, 1 declaration in stone, 2 stony silence, 1 aven mindcensor, 1 consulate crackdown
- 3 dismember, 3 eldrazi displacer
You need aggression and Displacer deals with Wurmcoil Engine just fine, whereas Dec in Stone is meh. I also don't think Consulate Crackdown is good enough here. Cast Out is also only so-so.
This and Robots seems like the match for Crackdown, but 3WW is a long way off. I also think that Thalia GoT is really good here, especially if you can do that or Chalice turn 1. Finks is ok and Ratchet Bomb is a bit of a non-bo with Stony.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
@redtwister :
Tron : ok, crackdown and declaration are meh for me too but displacer don't do a lot of thing i guess it's nice to kill for free thragtusk token too.
Burn : if i play more finks i agreee but that's not the case, yes cast out seems too much. declaration seems ok to help against stupid full creatures hand if i don't have a early chalice
Scales : crackdown is expensive but it's a gg and even if they nature's claim it it kill tokens, ballista, remove clounters etc etc. I agree thalia v2 is good but i don't know where to find a slot for it, cast out maybe ?
And sure ratchet bomb is a nombo but i play only few of each and if i have stony silence i guess i don't need a ratchet bomb 80% of times.
@yriel
In thinking about the SB, my first question is always "Who is the beatdown?" or, what is our role in the match. I'm not so much justifying my points, as helping you see how I think about the matches as I have played these a lot with this deck. Someone like SpiderSpace might have a different view and he is much better and more experienced with the deck as a streamer/heavy MTGO player.
With Tron, they are control and we are the beatdown. Turn 2 3/3 is better than a removal spell, especially as it functions as a de facto removal spell by making them unable to attack. If Thragtusk is their only out, we are in good shape.
With Burn, they are the beatdown and we are control, at least in the first few turns, but their creatures don't size well against ours, so Chalice + creatures is our best solution to them, and somewhere around turn 3-4, we should become the beatdown. I will say, I have lost 1 match, and only 1 match, to Burn in some 30+ matches. As long as you take Dismember out, you are doing it right.
Against Scales, they are the beatdown and we are control, at least early. Stony is the absolutely most important card, but Chalice is also super strong. Crackdown does seem like GG for them and if that is prominent in your meta, it seems like a fine inclusion.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
@redtwister.
Agree but this view seems a quite too simple for me.
Just one point, i don't say displacer is bad against burn i just say finks is a too small argument to keep displacer when you have only one.
And for sure crackdown is not only for hardened scales.
I don't expect burn match-up is so good !
Thanks for your time :).
I will try to do a small report of my sunday.
@yriel
Think less about the approach as simple, than as the first thing you need to understand in any match. Misunderstand your role, and you are already at a disadvantage.
After that, it is helpful to understand the 5 archetypes in Magic (Aggro, Tempo or Aggro-Control, Midrange Aggro, Midrange Control, Control and Hybrid Control) and the two types of finishes (progressive and combo), in order to get a deeper understanding of how your deck relates to other decks, and the weaknesses in each match. Adrian Sullivan, one of the foremost theorists of MTG has a very interesting article recently that talks about this, and he has links to defining metatheory articles written by himself and others.
Then one has to consider deck-building: what kind of cards work together (e.g. Why Ponder in one deck, but Preordain in another?), manabases, synergy (and non-synergy), etc.
Finally, there is no replacement for knowledge of the meta (Crackdown is a perfect example, as if Affinity was the only really artifact deck, it isn't good, but if multiple artifact decks are strong, e.g. now there is Hardened Scales and Whir Prison in Tier 1, Affinity and Lantern in Tier 2, it is certainly much better) and practice (sequencing, a skill that even linear aggro deck players have to master; when to take a hit and when not, when to cast draw spells, when to fetch, when to counter, when to play on one's turn and when to play reactively, etc.)
All of which, in the end, feeds back into how well you understand your role in the match. I presented the simplest form of the idea, but the full content of "knowing your role" or "Who is the beatdown" involves a great deal of learning and application. Not that the best players are theory people, but they have at least intuitively absorbed all of these elements into their play.
I probably don't have good reason to change any slots in Spiderspace's decklist but i wan to appropriate my deck a little instead of copy paste something.
Round 1 : FrenzAffinity 2-1
Fun fact : i shuffle, count my cards before give my list and oh..... a card missing. Is it one of the masterpice chalice of the void which are NOT mine. No. Nice. Wait where is my 4th horizon canopy ? Hopefully my nice opponent give one of his horizon canopy for the tournament, at least i didn't play 7 plains.
G1 : 10 infects counter t3 sure.
G2&G3 : i success to resolve and keep a displacer alive, first time by TKS the blast before and next time by chalice of the void and my opponent forgot he don't have metalcraft when he casts a blast before my chalice.
Round 2 : BW Eldrazi&Taxes 2-1
G1 : my hand did fast thalia or chalice but it not works here.
G2 : i play smasher turn 3 and turn 4, instead of path to exil one he played his TKS instead, bad idea.
G3 : i did a lucky missplay by playing TKS before chalice and i take his gideon, ally of zendikar then chalice into displacer/big thalia gives me the win.
Round 3 : UW Control 0-2
G1 : i play thalia, into arbiter into big thalia, he terminus me with azacanta just after i played big thalia, sad.
G2 : spell snare against my chalice was hard, then he counters my next 3 creatures.
Round 4 : Jund hollow one 1-2
G1 : chalice turn 1 then i chumpblock with my TKS and resolve smasher for blocking better his tasigur
G2&G3 : my opponent had a very strange sideboard with scavenging ooze, assassin's trophy, abrupt decay, chandra torch of defiance, tireless tracker and maelstrom pulse.
Round 5 : UR Storm 2-0
G1 : he fizzles
G2 : he mull 5 against t1 thalia v1 and smasher turn 3
Round 6 : G Tron 1-2
G1 : turn 1 chalice into smasher turn 2 and after big thalia.
G2&G3 : he "tron" me turn 3 but both times i think i keep complicated starting hands.
after some discussions i would probably mulligan both hands.
OTD : 1 eldrazi temple 1 plains 2 thalia v1 1 leonin arbiter 1 reality smasher 1 thalia v2
OTP : 2 eldrazi temple 1 simian spirit guide 1 thalia v1 1 leonin arbiter 1 thalia v2 1 reality smasher (for these one because i count 26 relevant draws in my deck (12 white sources, 4 GQ, 4 TKS, 4 chalice and 2 warping wail)
Round 7 : Red Phoenix 2-0
G1 : chalice turn 1
G2 : reality smasher is a good blocker then i resolve worship and warping wail save my life when he double anger of gods me to destroy all my board.
Intersting choice in that g2, my hand was 1 horizon canopy 1 eldrazi temple 1 gemstone cavern 1 declaration in stone 1 rest in peace 1 eldrazi displacer 1 reality smasher, what do you pitch on gemstone cavern ? I exile the declaration but not sure at all about it.
Well, the short conclusion is the deck convinced enough to buy in on mtgo and life is very hard against decks you don'ty expect too much.
I hope to coming back soon for more feedback after some leagues !
I will try to update my sideboard guide too.
Any critic and comment is appreciated.
@redtwister : obviously agree with your post, i just think it's a too "simple" justification a large part of the time but it matters for sure.
Edit : is settle the wreackage not an option when creatures aggro decks is our worst match-up ?
And i don't understand why tocatli honour guard over torpor orb.
Actually, i am 15-10 on friendly leagues, i am pretty happy of that score when i face 50% of times average tiers 2 decks (2 merfolks, 1 ponza, 1 esper control with ashiok, 1 red prison...)
My side now is :
3 torpor orb
2 worship
1 cataclysmic gearhulk
1 declaration in stone
1 cast out
2 ratchet bomb
2 stony silence
2 rest in peace
1 phyrexian revoker
I try to respect as much as i can humans match-up.
I will probably do more friendly leagues before go in more compet events, the deck is harder to play as i expect (few decisions in the first turns are very very hard).
How is dredge match-up in general ?
I just played against one, he crushs me on the first. I success to thalia v1 turn 1 the 2 post side board games to win but very close win.
The deck is definitely decision-intensive and you are right, the correct Turn 1-2 play is complex, as often there are multiple good options, so which one is best remains.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
We've been having a conversation on the Spirits thread that Stony Silence isn't that great right now. It is valuable for Affinity, but that deck is much less present, and Hardened Scales, which is actually increasing in play, and Artifact Prison Control, where Whir is much less impacted by Stony than Lantern was. It is also good against Tron (they have a number of important activated artifacts, but it doesn't stop natural Tron or impact Wurmcoil), but maybe the play there is shutting down searching (I like Aven Mindcensor, as it also hits Titan decks pretty hard), and using land destruction.
I don't mind Consulate Crackdown, but Spirits can run Hurkyl's Recall as the much better card in those matches, since it returns them to their hand at instant speed for 2 mana. Crackdown does exile your opponent's artifacts, so that is quite good, its just that 5 mana is so much and I wish it was a Sorcery and not an Enchantment. Then again, that is just fine against Whir Prison and Lantern, it just is quite slow versus Hardened Scales and mostly worthless against Tron.
Maybe the key is to rethink boarding for Affinity/Scales, and make more use of Declaration in Stone, Settle the Wreckage, and Ratchet Bomb (Affinity/Scales, Whir) for those matches, with Crackdown added in (for Affinity/Scales, Whir) for the mid to late game blowout.
Thoughts?
Current sideboard 10 staples:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Tocatli Honor Guard
1 Worship
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Ratchet Bomb
Possible additional sideboard cards:
+1 Worship
+1 Tocatli Honor Guard
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Endbringer
2 Stony Silence
1-2 Crackdown
1 Cast Out
1-2 Damping Sphere (Tron, but also becomes another Thalia.)
I guess it depends on how are the match-up where stone is good. For spirits it's quite strange because tron and hardened scales are very bad match-up for them.
With our deck, my feeling about these matchs are :
tron , good match-up.
hardened scales, close.
affinity, slightly unfavourable.
whir prison, catastrophic.
And i agree stony silence is not great against whir prison. That process is totally fair and relevant for me.
Do you think rest in peace is so needed ? dredge is bad but phoenix is very good. By the way hardened scales is maybe a very good match-up post side with rest in peace and othet stuff T_T.
An other point i asked before why not torpor orb over tocatli honour guard ?
@yriel
Yeah, I don't know that we need Stony for if it doesn't help a very bad match. I'm really moving towards your Crackdowns, especially if Scales is in fact already at least even.
RiP is our only fast out to Dredge, and it helps against a wide variety of decks (I don't think it comes in against Phoenix). I know a lot of people don't like it against BG Midrange, but Kalitas, Goyf, Scooze all need the graveyard. Also good against Scales, Storm, Hollow One, Living End and even Whir Prison to stop them recycling lands and artifacts.
I think Tocatli is there primarily for two reasons: it is a creature that blocks and attacks if needed, and as a creature it can be protected by Displacer.
RE: Spirits: they have moved to 3 Damping Sphere for Tron and combo, and Hurkyl's Recall is better against Whir and Scales.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
@redtwister
to be an old BGX player, rest in peace is good against BGX if you fear the goyf and i think it's the case with that deck so board in the rest in peace is very good. For the others decks, storm, hollow one and living end are good match-ups i think (thalia and chalice are insane here) so imo they aren't a good justification to bring more rest in peace, i think we will play against more humans than these 3 decks by example. Against whir rip only interacts with academy ruins and crucible of worlds if i am correct and these are not great against us (we need to destroy bridge only during one turn to win i guess). Agree scales is a bigger justification to play rest in peace but i will probably prefear a good card against scales and better than rest in peace against humans. My first impression is dredge and graveyard decks are better matchs-up than humans (and others creatures decks like that) if i am wrong about that, i could understand more rip.
About tocatli, displacer justification is not very good because torpor orb protects itself from all creatures removal and by example against decks as humans, spirits or any hatebears you are sure to keep it until end of game. torpor orb is worst if opponent bring non-creatures artifact (so if chalice is good, if not they won't bring artifact hate). Be a creature for combat step is half of justification when he blocks only grizzly and out deck is a pile good boyz in combat step.
@yriel
RE: RiP
- I do think Dredge is nearly unwinnable without it.
- Living End, we basically have Chalice, but if we have RiP, we also disrupt them very effectively along a second line of attack.
- Whir Prison, what you noted effectively stops their wincons. This gives us an alternate wincon of milling them out, with Displacer-TKS comobo, to force them to draw out faster than us, while we pick apart their relevant cards inside the draw step. I've beaten Lantern and Whir this way. Also, many Whir play Thopter-Sword combo, which is best beaten with RiP.
- Storm and Hollow One, it just gives us another prison piece, and they are the aggro deck in those matches, so our job is to lock out their game plan, then beat them.
Humans are ~6% of the meta, graveyard decks in total are about 18% of the meta. Dredge and The Rock are as popular as Humans by itself. But you are correct, I would absolutely want enough answers to Humans and Spirits, which is why 3 Tocatli is probably correct right now.
RE: Tocatli vs Torpor Orb
Test it out. I'm just trying to share with you why we moved from Orb to Tocatli when it was released.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
i stopped to play the deck for now. I was something like 32-18 on friendly leagues and 12-9 on competitive leagues which is fine but not impressive and obviously not have london mulligan is a miss. The deck is really hard to side board and play in fair matchs.
I probably go back to it if phoenix stays top 1 but i prefear play rock against dredge and tron.
torpor orb seems better than tocatli for me by the way.
Blast Zone seems like a card poised to improve all of our worst match-ups. So taking Tom Medvec's list, here are my changes: I never liked Cavern of Souls in Modern, unless it is something like Humans, and I definitely don't like it here. Those are out, 2 Blast Zone in. Against the Tribals, BZ is fine since most of what we want it on is 1 (esp against Humans and Elves) or 3 (esp against Spirits), which means Tocatli tends to stay around. If the problem is Merfolk (it isn't), then we would want 2, but I mean, who does that? Crucible allows us to play it again too, which is quite nice.
Played Serum Powder Eldrazi last night and once again found it frustratingly mediocre. I never do as well with as I do with Death and Staxes.
Here's a question: If we run 12 R sources with with the possibility of hitting another on the draw, is Karn, Scion of Urza still the best planeswalker? What about Chandra, Torch of Defiance? I think we might have crossed into the zone of possibility.
Also, I always come back to Anger of the Gods. With this much R mana, it still seems like a really good choice against Dredge, Phoenix, Humans, Spirits, etc. I know Winds of Abandon is taking that spot thanks to Overload, but 6 mana is a LOT. How often are we casting it for 6?
Okay, match-ups, which ones do we worry about more?
Aggressive decks
Hogak and Dredge? Are we basically relying on 3 RiP and being able to play it ASAP? That isn't really secure against Hogak. Maybe we need something else? Dredge never felt particularly bad, but Hogank is worrisome.
RiP is great against both, but maybe needs to be Leyline of the Void? But then we lose if we don't find it? Anger would be great versus Dredge, not so good vs. Hogak.
Go-Wide Tribal? (Spirits feels dead, goblins is all on the ground, so not as worried, Merfolk doesn't really exist, so basically Humans. Do we need a 1-of Blast Zone for that match? Is the combination of Winds of Abandon + Tocatli Honor Guard good enough to improve the match? Anger would be very good.
Izzet Phoenix? Feels okay, I guess our only sideboard options are RiP or if we run Worship. Another place for Anger to shine.
Mono-R Phoenix? Kinda like Burn but better creatures, less-consistent game plan?? Burn was a better than 90/10 match for me, but they couldn't do the whole combo thing. This really might be a match for RiP to shut down their little recursion spell, but if we drop Chalice, boom... they're done. Another place for Anger to shine.
Infect? We can run Sudden Shock, which probably just beats them. Then again, we play Chalice, so... Another place for Anger to shine.
Hardened Scales? Is this still a deck? I guess. Our game plan is already good.
Control and Mid-Range Decks
Jund? Ugh. Welcome to Land of Grindy. Chalice is meh, Planeswalkers are dumb. I like Chandra + maybe 1-2 RiP.
UW or Jeskai Control? More Chandra, maybe Wear // Tear? Really depends on the start, if we end up in the late game, there is a good chance we lose.
Blast Zone doesn't feel great anywhere here, honestly, except Humans, and we have a plan for that. I would prefer Anger to Zone in our deck. Having played Blast Zone quite a bit, it is best if you have mana to ramp it quickly (you want to be able go from 1 to 3 counters the turn you drop it) or it is much worse. Spending two turns doing nothing and hoping to get it to 3 feels bad.
In fact, against the Aggro decks and Creature combo, Anger feels like it would be much better overall, especially with THG.
Where is Worship good? Not against any of the Control and Mid-range decks. Maybe okay versus combo? The aggressive decks (except Infect and Hardened Scales) can't really deal with it since they don't really kill our creatures, but then again, getting to 4 mana against them is not easy. I don't think I like Worship
EDIT: Day 1 of the Mythic Championship IV
Everyone not playing Hogaak is getting Hogaanked. Barring a another ban, this could push Izzet Phoenix and Humans out of the format. Our main enemies might be unfair GY decks and UW Control.
Hogaak has been an autoloss for me. The reliability of pulling out a turn 2 Hogaak is frighteningly consistent before I can even cast a RIP assuming I even have one. Added Grafdiggers to the board in addition to RIPs as a result of their prominence.
RR is still a little iffy out of the SB, but 12 sources maindeck (not including possible GC on the draw) is far more than we have ever had and Prairie is going to be far more consistent now with 16 sources to use it. Anger seems really strong additionally against every GY deck, including Hogaak (not against Hogaak itself, obviously, but literally every other threat in their deck), including Phoneix, and it is very good vs. Humans, Spirits, etc.
I feel like Chandra is also just better, if we can sustain her, than Karn, Scion of Urza against Midrange and Control.
I wish I could fit more Obligator, as it can just steal wins and is a fine beater otherwise, but I don't know where I could find room. I'd have to go to 24 lands, probably, and dump Prairie, which probably weakens my SB plans too much.
I was looking for a place to talk about the archetype that I currently enjoy quite a bit.
I am still figuring out the flex spot. Nothing is striking me right now. Phyrexian revoker, warping wail, winds of abandon, restoration angel, selfless spirit all do not feel impressive. Maybe walking ballista? What are your thoughts?
I'm a fan of the deck as well! This is my current list. I've asked Tom Medvec to share his list he played in the SCG team event.
And with a some very small changes this is my current list that i like.
@pocaron19
Also a big fan of the deck, been playing it for a long time now.
My list is above.
It is a little different because of my excitement about Sunbaked Canyon and how absolutely meh Blast Zone has felt (we actually use up a lot of lands and R/RR is actually playable.) BZ feels much better in the more aggro Serum Powder Eldrazi build.
My flex slot is Eldrazi Obligator because it does a lot and it does it quickly. A 3/1 Haste creature is often a closer, but stealing a creature and having a haste creature has won me matches across several metas and feels especially good when your opponent thinks that can lock you out of the game with a single fatty (Death's Shadow, Wurmcoil Engine, Ulamog, the ceasless hunger, Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, and so on.)
I favor staying at 25 lands with a heavy R content in order to be able to use RR cards in the sideboard, but also we need to get to 6 mana more consistently with Winds of Abandon.
I wish we could run Prismatic Vista, but alas, we are an Arbiter deck and methinks that would mess us up. Besides, Blood Moon is much less a thing than in Legacy.
In the sideboard, it is hard to decide on 4 Leyline vs. 3 RiP + 1 of something else. I don't like a card we literally have to mulligan into our opening hand. I could see +1 Winds of Abandon, that card has over-performed, so I would amend my sideboard in that way, even though casting RiP on turn 1 is not likely enough to stop Hogaak consistently and that stupid card often can fight through that too.
Other than that, I think Anger of the Gods is much stronger against Dredge and Hogaak than BZ and faster to the board and mostly better against any go-wide aggro strategy. Chandra is also mostly better than either CMC4 Karn (I know, I blaspheme), and Wear // Tear is just a little more flexible than Disenchant, but that is a 50/50 decision to me. I guess I like the possibility of destroying two things for one card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Most of it looks fine. I'm not a fan of Consulate Crackdown, but hey, test it out.
The three I see issues with are:
Tron :
+ 1 cast out, 1 declaration in stone, 2 stony silence, 1 aven mindcensor, 1 consulate crackdown
- 3 dismember, 3 eldrazi displacer
You need aggression and Displacer deals with Wurmcoil Engine just fine, whereas Dec in Stone is meh. I also don't think Consulate Crackdown is good enough here. Cast Out is also only so-so.
Burn :
+ 1 kitchen finks, 2 worship, 1 declaration in stone, 1 cast out, 1 ratchet bomb
- 3 dismember, 3 eldrazi displacer
Displacer + Finks is Winsville. Dec and Cast Out are still meh here. Ratchet is ok, maybe worth a single Displacer.
Scales :
+ 1 cast out, 1 declaration in stone, 2 stony silence, 1 kitchen finks, 1 ratchet bomb, 1 consulate crackdown, 2 rest in peace
- 4 thalia v1, 4 leonin arbiter, 1 thalia v2
This and Robots seems like the match for Crackdown, but 3WW is a long way off. I also think that Thalia GoT is really good here, especially if you can do that or Chalice turn 1. Finks is ok and Ratchet Bomb is a bit of a non-bo with Stony.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Tron : ok, crackdown and declaration are meh for me too but displacer don't do a lot of thing i guess it's nice to kill for free thragtusk token too.
Burn : if i play more finks i agreee but that's not the case, yes cast out seems too much. declaration seems ok to help against stupid full creatures hand if i don't have a early chalice
Scales : crackdown is expensive but it's a gg and even if they nature's claim it it kill tokens, ballista, remove clounters etc etc. I agree thalia v2 is good but i don't know where to find a slot for it, cast out maybe ?
And sure ratchet bomb is a nombo but i play only few of each and if i have stony silence i guess i don't need a ratchet bomb 80% of times.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
In thinking about the SB, my first question is always "Who is the beatdown?" or, what is our role in the match. I'm not so much justifying my points, as helping you see how I think about the matches as I have played these a lot with this deck. Someone like SpiderSpace might have a different view and he is much better and more experienced with the deck as a streamer/heavy MTGO player.
With Tron, they are control and we are the beatdown. Turn 2 3/3 is better than a removal spell, especially as it functions as a de facto removal spell by making them unable to attack. If Thragtusk is their only out, we are in good shape.
With Burn, they are the beatdown and we are control, at least in the first few turns, but their creatures don't size well against ours, so Chalice + creatures is our best solution to them, and somewhere around turn 3-4, we should become the beatdown. I will say, I have lost 1 match, and only 1 match, to Burn in some 30+ matches. As long as you take Dismember out, you are doing it right.
Against Scales, they are the beatdown and we are control, at least early. Stony is the absolutely most important card, but Chalice is also super strong. Crackdown does seem like GG for them and if that is prominent in your meta, it seems like a fine inclusion.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Agree but this view seems a quite too simple for me.
Just one point, i don't say displacer is bad against burn i just say finks is a too small argument to keep displacer when you have only one.
And for sure crackdown is not only for hardened scales.
I don't expect burn match-up is so good !
Thanks for your time :).
I will try to do a small report of my sunday.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
Think less about the approach as simple, than as the first thing you need to understand in any match. Misunderstand your role, and you are already at a disadvantage.
After that, it is helpful to understand the 5 archetypes in Magic (Aggro, Tempo or Aggro-Control, Midrange Aggro, Midrange Control, Control and Hybrid Control) and the two types of finishes (progressive and combo), in order to get a deeper understanding of how your deck relates to other decks, and the weaknesses in each match. Adrian Sullivan, one of the foremost theorists of MTG has a very interesting article recently that talks about this, and he has links to defining metatheory articles written by himself and others.
Then one has to consider deck-building: what kind of cards work together (e.g. Why Ponder in one deck, but Preordain in another?), manabases, synergy (and non-synergy), etc.
Finally, there is no replacement for knowledge of the meta (Crackdown is a perfect example, as if Affinity was the only really artifact deck, it isn't good, but if multiple artifact decks are strong, e.g. now there is Hardened Scales and Whir Prison in Tier 1, Affinity and Lantern in Tier 2, it is certainly much better) and practice (sequencing, a skill that even linear aggro deck players have to master; when to take a hit and when not, when to cast draw spells, when to fetch, when to counter, when to play on one's turn and when to play reactively, etc.)
All of which, in the end, feeds back into how well you understand your role in the match. I presented the simplest form of the idea, but the full content of "knowing your role" or "Who is the beatdown" involves a great deal of learning and application. Not that the best players are theory people, but they have at least intuitively absorbed all of these elements into their play.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
i played a 70 people modern tournament with REL competitive but cool people and fair magic were here.
The list for reference (it didn't change since the previous page)
4 leonin arbiter
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 eldrazi displacer
3 thalia, heretic cathar
4 thought knot seer
4 reality smasher
13 Spells :
3 dismember
2 warping wail
4 chalice of the void
4 simian spirit guide
4 horizon canopy
4 gemstone caverns
2 shefet dunes
6 plains
4 ghost quarter
4 eldrazi temple
3 tocatli honour guard
2 worship
1 consulate crackdown
1 declaration in stone
1 cast out
1 ratchet bomb
2 stony silence
2 rest in peace
1 kitchen finsk
1 aven mindcensor
I probably don't have good reason to change any slots in Spiderspace's decklist but i wan to appropriate my deck a little instead of copy paste something.
Round 1 : FrenzAffinity 2-1
Fun fact : i shuffle, count my cards before give my list and oh..... a card missing. Is it one of the masterpice chalice of the void which are NOT mine. No. Nice. Wait where is my 4th horizon canopy ? Hopefully my nice opponent give one of his horizon canopy for the tournament, at least i didn't play 7 plains.
G1 : 10 infects counter t3 sure.
G2&G3 : i success to resolve and keep a displacer alive, first time by TKS the blast before and next time by chalice of the void and my opponent forgot he don't have metalcraft when he casts a blast before my chalice.
Round 2 : BW Eldrazi&Taxes 2-1
G1 : my hand did fast thalia or chalice but it not works here.
G2 : i play smasher turn 3 and turn 4, instead of path to exil one he played his TKS instead, bad idea.
G3 : i did a lucky missplay by playing TKS before chalice and i take his gideon, ally of zendikar then chalice into displacer/big thalia gives me the win.
Round 3 : UW Control 0-2
G1 : i play thalia, into arbiter into big thalia, he terminus me with azacanta just after i played big thalia, sad.
G2 : spell snare against my chalice was hard, then he counters my next 3 creatures.
Round 4 : Jund hollow one 1-2
G1 : chalice turn 1 then i chumpblock with my TKS and resolve smasher for blocking better his tasigur
G2&G3 : my opponent had a very strange sideboard with scavenging ooze, assassin's trophy, abrupt decay, chandra torch of defiance, tireless tracker and maelstrom pulse.
Round 5 : UR Storm 2-0
G1 : he fizzles
G2 : he mull 5 against t1 thalia v1 and smasher turn 3
Round 6 : G Tron 1-2
G1 : turn 1 chalice into smasher turn 2 and after big thalia.
G2&G3 : he "tron" me turn 3 but both times i think i keep complicated starting hands.
after some discussions i would probably mulligan both hands.
OTD : 1 eldrazi temple 1 plains 2 thalia v1 1 leonin arbiter 1 reality smasher 1 thalia v2
OTP : 2 eldrazi temple 1 simian spirit guide 1 thalia v1 1 leonin arbiter 1 thalia v2 1 reality smasher (for these one because i count 26 relevant draws in my deck (12 white sources, 4 GQ, 4 TKS, 4 chalice and 2 warping wail)
Round 7 : Red Phoenix 2-0
G1 : chalice turn 1
G2 : reality smasher is a good blocker then i resolve worship and warping wail save my life when he double anger of gods me to destroy all my board.
Intersting choice in that g2, my hand was 1 horizon canopy 1 eldrazi temple 1 gemstone cavern 1 declaration in stone 1 rest in peace 1 eldrazi displacer 1 reality smasher, what do you pitch on gemstone cavern ? I exile the declaration but not sure at all about it.
Well, the short conclusion is the deck convinced enough to buy in on mtgo and life is very hard against decks you don'ty expect too much.
I hope to coming back soon for more feedback after some leagues !
I will try to update my sideboard guide too.
Any critic and comment is appreciated.
@redtwister : obviously agree with your post, i just think it's a too "simple" justification a large part of the time but it matters for sure.
Edit : is settle the wreackage not an option when creatures aggro decks is our worst match-up ?
And i don't understand why tocatli honour guard over torpor orb.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
My side now is :
3 torpor orb
2 worship
1 cataclysmic gearhulk
1 declaration in stone
1 cast out
2 ratchet bomb
2 stony silence
2 rest in peace
1 phyrexian revoker
I try to respect as much as i can humans match-up.
I will probably do more friendly leagues before go in more compet events, the deck is harder to play as i expect (few decisions in the first turns are very very hard).
How is dredge match-up in general ?
I just played against one, he crushs me on the first. I success to thalia v1 turn 1 the 2 post side board games to win but very close win.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
The deck is definitely decision-intensive and you are right, the correct Turn 1-2 play is complex, as often there are multiple good options, so which one is best remains.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I don't mind Consulate Crackdown, but Spirits can run Hurkyl's Recall as the much better card in those matches, since it returns them to their hand at instant speed for 2 mana. Crackdown does exile your opponent's artifacts, so that is quite good, its just that 5 mana is so much and I wish it was a Sorcery and not an Enchantment. Then again, that is just fine against Whir Prison and Lantern, it just is quite slow versus Hardened Scales and mostly worthless against Tron.
Maybe the key is to rethink boarding for Affinity/Scales, and make more use of Declaration in Stone, Settle the Wreckage, and Ratchet Bomb (Affinity/Scales, Whir) for those matches, with Crackdown added in (for Affinity/Scales, Whir) for the mid to late game blowout.
Thoughts?
Current sideboard 10 staples:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Tocatli Honor Guard
1 Worship
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Ratchet Bomb
Possible additional sideboard cards:
+1 Worship
+1 Tocatli Honor Guard
1 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Endbringer
2 Stony Silence
1-2 Crackdown
1 Cast Out
1-2 Damping Sphere (Tron, but also becomes another Thalia.)
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
With our deck, my feeling about these matchs are :
tron , good match-up.
hardened scales, close.
affinity, slightly unfavourable.
whir prison, catastrophic.
And i agree stony silence is not great against whir prison. That process is totally fair and relevant for me.
Do you think rest in peace is so needed ? dredge is bad but phoenix is very good. By the way hardened scales is maybe a very good match-up post side with rest in peace and othet stuff T_T.
An other point i asked before why not torpor orb over tocatli honour guard ?
"Penguin is Evil ?"
Yeah, I don't know that we need Stony for if it doesn't help a very bad match. I'm really moving towards your Crackdowns, especially if Scales is in fact already at least even.
RiP is our only fast out to Dredge, and it helps against a wide variety of decks (I don't think it comes in against Phoenix). I know a lot of people don't like it against BG Midrange, but Kalitas, Goyf, Scooze all need the graveyard. Also good against Scales, Storm, Hollow One, Living End and even Whir Prison to stop them recycling lands and artifacts.
I think Tocatli is there primarily for two reasons: it is a creature that blocks and attacks if needed, and as a creature it can be protected by Displacer.
RE: Spirits: they have moved to 3 Damping Sphere for Tron and combo, and Hurkyl's Recall is better against Whir and Scales.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
to be an old BGX player, rest in peace is good against BGX if you fear the goyf and i think it's the case with that deck so board in the rest in peace is very good. For the others decks, storm, hollow one and living end are good match-ups i think (thalia and chalice are insane here) so imo they aren't a good justification to bring more rest in peace, i think we will play against more humans than these 3 decks by example. Against whir rip only interacts with academy ruins and crucible of worlds if i am correct and these are not great against us (we need to destroy bridge only during one turn to win i guess). Agree scales is a bigger justification to play rest in peace but i will probably prefear a good card against scales and better than rest in peace against humans. My first impression is dredge and graveyard decks are better matchs-up than humans (and others creatures decks like that) if i am wrong about that, i could understand more rip.
About tocatli, displacer justification is not very good because torpor orb protects itself from all creatures removal and by example against decks as humans, spirits or any hatebears you are sure to keep it until end of game. torpor orb is worst if opponent bring non-creatures artifact (so if chalice is good, if not they won't bring artifact hate). Be a creature for combat step is half of justification when he blocks only grizzly and out deck is a pile good boyz in combat step.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
RE: RiP
- I do think Dredge is nearly unwinnable without it.
- Living End, we basically have Chalice, but if we have RiP, we also disrupt them very effectively along a second line of attack.
- Whir Prison, what you noted effectively stops their wincons. This gives us an alternate wincon of milling them out, with Displacer-TKS comobo, to force them to draw out faster than us, while we pick apart their relevant cards inside the draw step. I've beaten Lantern and Whir this way. Also, many Whir play Thopter-Sword combo, which is best beaten with RiP.
- Storm and Hollow One, it just gives us another prison piece, and they are the aggro deck in those matches, so our job is to lock out their game plan, then beat them.
Humans are ~6% of the meta, graveyard decks in total are about 18% of the meta. Dredge and The Rock are as popular as Humans by itself. But you are correct, I would absolutely want enough answers to Humans and Spirits, which is why 3 Tocatli is probably correct right now.
RE: Tocatli vs Torpor Orb
Test it out. I'm just trying to share with you why we moved from Orb to Tocatli when it was released.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
i stopped to play the deck for now. I was something like 32-18 on friendly leagues and 12-9 on competitive leagues which is fine but not impressive and obviously not have london mulligan is a miss. The deck is really hard to side board and play in fair matchs.
I probably go back to it if phoenix stays top 1 but i prefear play rock against dredge and tron.
torpor orb seems better than tocatli for me by the way.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Blast Zone seems like a card poised to improve all of our worst match-ups. So taking Tom Medvec's list, here are my changes: I never liked Cavern of Souls in Modern, unless it is something like Humans, and I definitely don't like it here. Those are out, 2 Blast Zone in. Against the Tribals, BZ is fine since most of what we want it on is 1 (esp against Humans and Elves) or 3 (esp against Spirits), which means Tocatli tends to stay around. If the problem is Merfolk (it isn't), then we would want 2, but I mean, who does that? Crucible allows us to play it again too, which is quite nice.
Not sure we change much else.
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Reality Smasher
1 Restoration Angel
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Lands (25)
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Plains
3 Gemstone Caverns
3 Shefet Dunes
2 Blast Zone
1 Wastes
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dismember
1 Warping Wail
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tocatli Honor Guard
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Worship
1 Warping Wail
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22538&d=353518&f=MO
Been playing that list almost exactly and have had a good run with it so far in just a couple leagues.
Would be curious why hes not running the Blast Zone also - every other version of Eldrazi Aggro is running 1-2.
I personally like this build and will probably try it out once my other 3 Sunbaked Canyon arrive.
Played Serum Powder Eldrazi last night and once again found it frustratingly mediocre. I never do as well with as I do with Death and Staxes.
Here's a question: If we run 12 R sources with with the possibility of hitting another on the draw, is Karn, Scion of Urza still the best planeswalker? What about Chandra, Torch of Defiance? I think we might have crossed into the zone of possibility.
Also, I always come back to Anger of the Gods. With this much R mana, it still seems like a really good choice against Dredge, Phoenix, Humans, Spirits, etc. I know Winds of Abandon is taking that spot thanks to Overload, but 6 mana is a LOT. How often are we casting it for 6?
Okay, match-ups, which ones do we worry about more?
Aggressive decks
Hogak and Dredge? Are we basically relying on 3 RiP and being able to play it ASAP? That isn't really secure against Hogak. Maybe we need something else? Dredge never felt particularly bad, but Hogank is worrisome.
RiP is great against both, but maybe needs to be Leyline of the Void? But then we lose if we don't find it? Anger would be great versus Dredge, not so good vs. Hogak.
Go-Wide Tribal? (Spirits feels dead, goblins is all on the ground, so not as worried, Merfolk doesn't really exist, so basically Humans. Do we need a 1-of Blast Zone for that match? Is the combination of Winds of Abandon + Tocatli Honor Guard good enough to improve the match? Anger would be very good.
Izzet Phoenix? Feels okay, I guess our only sideboard options are RiP or if we run Worship. Another place for Anger to shine.
Mono-R Phoenix? Kinda like Burn but better creatures, less-consistent game plan?? Burn was a better than 90/10 match for me, but they couldn't do the whole combo thing. This really might be a match for RiP to shut down their little recursion spell, but if we drop Chalice, boom... they're done. Another place for Anger to shine.
Infect? We can run Sudden Shock, which probably just beats them. Then again, we play Chalice, so... Another place for Anger to shine.
Hardened Scales? Is this still a deck? I guess. Our game plan is already good.
Control and Mid-Range Decks
Jund? Ugh. Welcome to Land of Grindy. Chalice is meh, Planeswalkers are dumb. I like Chandra + maybe 1-2 RiP.
UW or Jeskai Control? More Chandra, maybe Wear // Tear? Really depends on the start, if we end up in the late game, there is a good chance we lose.
Tron? More meh. Stony Silence and Wear // Tear.
Eldrazi Tron? Definitely Wear // Tear, Stony Silence (makes the Karn + Lattice bad, also good versus Ballista.
Whir/Urza Thopter Prison? Wear // Tear, Stony Silence, Chandra.
Combo, Think I'll Ignore you Decks
Scapeshift/Amulet Titan? Meh, another 50/50? Wear // Tear for Amulets, but not a lot else from the side.
Creature Combo? Tocatli stops ETBs, RiP stops graveyard recursion. Sweeper?
Blast Zone doesn't feel great anywhere here, honestly, except Humans, and we have a plan for that. I would prefer Anger to Zone in our deck. Having played Blast Zone quite a bit, it is best if you have mana to ramp it quickly (you want to be able go from 1 to 3 counters the turn you drop it) or it is much worse. Spending two turns doing nothing and hoping to get it to 3 feels bad.
In fact, against the Aggro decks and Creature combo, Anger feels like it would be much better overall, especially with THG.
Where is Worship good? Not against any of the Control and Mid-range decks. Maybe okay versus combo? The aggressive decks (except Infect and Hardened Scales) can't really deal with it since they don't really kill our creatures, but then again, getting to 4 mana against them is not easy. I don't think I like Worship
EDIT: Day 1 of the Mythic Championship IV
Everyone not playing Hogaak is getting Hogaanked. Barring a another ban, this could push Izzet Phoenix and Humans out of the format. Our main enemies might be unfair GY decks and UW Control.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Between the Mythic Championship (22%+ of Day 2) amd the SCG Open (4 in the Top 8), I'm inclined to make that change.
Here is what I will be doing more testing with going forward.
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Reality Smasher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Eldrazi Obligator
Lands (25)
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Sunbaked Canyon
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Plains
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Wastes
1 Rugged Prairie
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Winds of Abandon
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Tocatli Honor Guard
2 Stony Silence
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Wear // Tear
RR is still a little iffy out of the SB, but 12 sources maindeck (not including possible GC on the draw) is far more than we have ever had and Prairie is going to be far more consistent now with 16 sources to use it. Anger seems really strong additionally against every GY deck, including Hogaak (not against Hogaak itself, obviously, but literally every other threat in their deck), including Phoneix, and it is very good vs. Humans, Spirits, etc.
I feel like Chandra is also just better, if we can sustain her, than Karn, Scion of Urza against Midrange and Control.
I wish I could fit more Obligator, as it can just steal wins and is a fine beater otherwise, but I don't know where I could find room. I'd have to go to 24 lands, probably, and dump Prairie, which probably weakens my SB plans too much.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I was looking for a place to talk about the archetype that I currently enjoy quite a bit.
I am still figuring out the flex spot. Nothing is striking me right now. Phyrexian revoker, warping wail, winds of abandon, restoration angel, selfless spirit all do not feel impressive. Maybe walking ballista? What are your thoughts?
I'm a fan of the deck as well! This is my current list. I've asked Tom Medvec to share his list he played in the SCG team event.
And with a some very small changes this is my current list that i like.
Lands 24
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Blast zone
2 Shefet Dunes
3 Sunbaked Canyon
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Wastes
5 Plains
Creatures 26:
4 Thalia GoT
2 Thalia HC
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Eldrazi displacer
4 Simian spirit guide
4 Thought-knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
Spells 6:
3 Dismember
3 Winds of Abandon
Artifact 4:
4 Chalice of the Void
Sideboard:
1 Celestial Purge
2 Disenchant
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Worship
2 Warping Wail
3 Tocatli Honor Guard
Also a big fan of the deck, been playing it for a long time now.
My list is above.
It is a little different because of my excitement about Sunbaked Canyon and how absolutely meh Blast Zone has felt (we actually use up a lot of lands and R/RR is actually playable.) BZ feels much better in the more aggro Serum Powder Eldrazi build.
My flex slot is Eldrazi Obligator because it does a lot and it does it quickly. A 3/1 Haste creature is often a closer, but stealing a creature and having a haste creature has won me matches across several metas and feels especially good when your opponent thinks that can lock you out of the game with a single fatty (Death's Shadow, Wurmcoil Engine, Ulamog, the ceasless hunger, Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis, and so on.)
I favor staying at 25 lands with a heavy R content in order to be able to use RR cards in the sideboard, but also we need to get to 6 mana more consistently with Winds of Abandon.
I wish we could run Prismatic Vista, but alas, we are an Arbiter deck and methinks that would mess us up. Besides, Blood Moon is much less a thing than in Legacy.
In the sideboard, it is hard to decide on 4 Leyline vs. 3 RiP + 1 of something else. I don't like a card we literally have to mulligan into our opening hand. I could see +1 Winds of Abandon, that card has over-performed, so I would amend my sideboard in that way, even though casting RiP on turn 1 is not likely enough to stop Hogaak consistently and that stupid card often can fight through that too.
Other than that, I think Anger of the Gods is much stronger against Dredge and Hogaak than BZ and faster to the board and mostly better against any go-wide aggro strategy. Chandra is also mostly better than either CMC4 Karn (I know, I blaspheme), and Wear // Tear is just a little more flexible than Disenchant, but that is a 50/50 decision to me. I guess I like the possibility of destroying two things for one card.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Reality Smasher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Lands (24)
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Sunbaked Canyon
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Plains
3 Gemstone Caverns
1 Wastes
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Winds of Abandon
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of ??
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Tocatli Honor Guard
2 Stony Silence
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Wear // Tear
I feel like the Arbiter build beats the SFM build...
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.