I loved Lodestone Golem when it was standard legal and played with him in the deck during that time. I haven't tried to play with him in modern much at all. I really like the card but he dies to every single removal spell in the format. Bolt, Path, Push, Dismember, Terminate, and so many burn spells that deal 3 damage. I think this is a really big downside to playing it. The enemy won't think twice to remove him on the spot if given the chance. I really like the card and think it would do quite well in a prison type build. I'm not sure what that build looks like just yet, but I have been considering it.
I'm thinking more of a Wildfire list with 3 maindeck Ward of Bones to keep the enemy down. Playing the Golem with Ward of Bones in play seems quite good after a Wildfire. I think if we went this plan, the other planeswalkers would come out and that deck would be much more budget friendly. The card is like .2 TIX on mtgo so I will probably end up buying them and doing some testing with them. For the golem to be useful, they need to either be off of their mana or not have much removal. In that death cloud list, I think Ugin just does so much more and gives the deck a nice top end to close out the game and deal with some trouble permanents, like planeswalkers.
Hey everyone, I am thinking of porting Joe Oarsman's "Big Eldrazi" from Legacy to Modern using this shell. His deck has 40+ cards dedicated to creating mana, a few lock pieces, and, appropriately enough, Big Eldrazi (the 3 titans and 4 TKS). We don't have Eye of Ugin to fetch a titan, but we can use Conduit of Ruin and/or Sanctum of Ugin to similar effect.
How much mana are you guys consistently creating across turns 2-4? And what are your payoffs? I see a lot of different variants, and I am most interested in Big Eldrazi and a combo shell using Paradox Engine. Here is my first draft at the Big Eldrazi archetype:
Cool colorless take on the deck. I have been wondering what a build with the tron lands as well would look like. Usually the problem with the deck is more the threat density rather than how quickly we can ramp, unless facing Jund or something that is heavy discard/artifact hate. With Voltaic Key in the list, I am averaging 6 mana on turn 3. There are so many different ways to get there and ramp into it. The most mana that I have had with the shell is 17 usable mana on turn 3. I managed to cast both Destructive Force and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon on my turn 3 with a super lucky draw.
Few ways to get way up there with the ideal ones being
T1 Voltaic Key, T2 Coretapper, T3 Put 3 counters on chalice. This would net you around 8 mana if you hit those 3 land drops.
T1 Surge Node, T2 Put a counter on chalice, play coretapper, chalice for 1, another surge node, or voltaic key. T3 you would have anywhere from 5 to 9 mana with 3 land drops.
With Mox Opal or multiple coretappers, things can get nutty and are sped up by a full turn. I have played Wurmcoils on turn 2 and won by turn 5.
The tron lands could give the deck a little more of the inevitability factor against decks that run discard/artifact hate. What would the sideboard look like? How do you deal with Stony Silence? Do you think you should run Expedition Map to help find the tron pieces or a Sanctum? Eye of Ugin would be awesome because you can use it multiple times. Sanctum helps against removal it looks like? You can't use it unless you are already casting a titan. Is it just win-more or does it help against decks that answer the titans quickly?
Neat list, lost of questions. Pretty curious to see how the deck would work out in practice. I have never heard of the legacy deck.
edit: Just checked out the legacy list and my is it spicy.
Tron lands are slower than the 12 post setup and harder to rely on naturally. In addition, Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Ancient Tomb, and City of Traitors are all good ramp on their own and can push the lock pieces out early. Not to mention more than twice the number of artifacts are in here to ramp in a similar manner. It isn't that much slower on the artifact ramp side of things but is harder to set up and requires nearly twice the amount of artifacts to make it happen. These used up slots push all of the prison cards out of the build in modern as you are put in a place where you want to run threats or lock pieces. Not having Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, and All is Dust takes away all of the deck's interaction until the Titans come out. Thought-Knot is good early, but can't get there alone. Just some thoughts, still interested in this style of deck.
Hey that's pretty neat. It's not one of my lists, and I'm really kind of confused on some of the card choices, but I am glad that the deck is picking up some more publicity. That mana-base seems pretty wonky. It would be nice if it said Dice Factory somewhere in the article but that's neither here nor there. I might have to build his deck in mtgo and run some games with it because I'm really curious about how easy it is to combo off with Temple Bell and the gas rocks mindstone and hedron archive. Otherworld Atlas just seems so much better for the deck. Temple Bell should be reserved to turbo fog imo.
I play a version without any charge counter mechanics besides Everflowing Chalice and I must say that one Temple Bell on the board is usually enough to win. You don't really need to draw more than two cards in an iteration anyway. (Yes, sometimes you brick, but that doesn't happen all that often) But to be fair, my deck has much more cantrips, which filter the draws.
How good is Oracle's Vault as a draw engine in this deck? Costing 2 mana each to flip the first 3 cards may not be so fun, but it seems relatively easy to make it flip free spells off the top every time after that in this deck.
I'm not sure Oracle's Vault has a place in the deck. I was playing around with it a little bit when it was spoiled in the paradox combo list and also in more of a RG Wildfire shell. The biggest problem with the card is that it uses brick counters. It is really unfortunate that it doesn't use charge counters. We probably could have gotten some use out of it. I think in the combo version, Otherworld Atlas is just better and more interactive with the deck. In the RG ramp shell, I would rather have something like Chandra, Torch of Defiance because it can do more. Often times, we don't need to cast things for free, we just need more card draw because our threat density is so light.
I played around a bit with the version with Paradox Engine otherworld Atlas and Ugin as my win cons and found it to be very good, with Ancient Stirrings in the deck i feel like I get what I need when I need it, but it also feels more combo oriented (but this may be my playstyle).
With Wildfire in the deck we are able to attack from so many angles it's just good. Also I like Monastery Siege but I have the problem to not know which 3 drop I need to play first, because I have Siege, Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge in my main.
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Hi, I usually just stalk the forums, so this is my first time writing anything. I have been gold-fishing a mono-u version of this deck for a while and finding it a pretty consist turn 4/5 finish, though occasionally it can go off on turn 3. Ancient Stirrings is such a strong reason to be in green. Glint-Nest Crane doesn't seem fast or reliable enough. I am also playing around with the idea of going into white and setting up a control sub-theme: Ethersworn Canonist (even considering it may occasionally be a non-bo), Supreme Verdict, PtE, maybe Silence/Dispatch, a Monastery Mentor for a non-artifact finisher. Anyway, here is the list I have right now.
Delay and condescend may be reasonable as well. Does this all seem like a reasonable route to take? The CFB article was certainly full of interesting ideas. I have been changing this version a lot the past couple of weeks.
It entirely depends on the situation. They each serve their own purpose. It can be a different one first even against the same opponent.
When it comes to Blood Moon, you need to ask yourself these questions. If you find yourself answering yes, then you should play this first.
1. Is the opponent playing Tron?
2. Is the opponent in 2 or more non-red colors?
3. Does the opponent have only non-basics or 1 basic?
4. Are they playing spells with a heavy non-red requirement like Cryptic Command in 2 and 3 color decks.
5. Could they play an impactful xCC spell in the next turn and only have 1 basic of that color like Liliana of the Veil in Jund and Abzan.
6. Are you getting beaten down by manlands or outclassed by their utility lands? Inkmoth Nexus, Raging Ravine, Ghost Quarter, Academy Ruins.
Ensnaring Bridge also has times when you want to slam one down turn 3. Ask yourself these questions.
1. Can you empty your hand quickly or below the average attack of the opponent's creatures? (Death's Shadow, Bant Eldrazi, Delve Decks, etc)
2. Does the enemy have an aggro deck?
3. Are you trying to win without creatures?
I haven't played with Monastery Siege just yet, but I plan on trying it out soon. I can only assume when I think you would want this, but if the enemy is playing a combo deck or a target heavy deck like Jund or Burn. If they are playing against a non-interactive deck, you play it for the filter effect early to try and find Wildfire/Ugin. It could help speed up finding win-cons late game as well which is welcome.
@ D0gstar
Welcome to the Factory.
I've thought about going the mono blue tron route possibly using Mindslaver lock as the win condition. Is it ever a problem not having the U without Astral Cornucopia or Mox Opal mid combo? The deck has a lot of filter/tutors which seems pretty nice. I really think 4 of a legendary land is too many for the deck or at least it causes problems more often than I am comfortable with. 17 lands is a pretty tight mana base and we usually rely on 3-4 Mox Opals to supplement the lands. Aside from that, the deck looks like it would be pretty solid.
About the UW version. Dispatch is very good in the deck and we easily have metalcraft turn 1-3 depending on the list. Glint-Nest Crane can be a good card in a list with other impactful artifacts. I dropped from 4 to 2 of them in my Eldrazi list and they perform well digging for equipment or ramp. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Ancient Stirrings are generally better for the dig effect though. Monastery Mentor could get there I suppose. Would that be in addition to the combo? I think it would be great when it is good and dies if the opponent has any removal.
@D0gstar
Is engine and atlas the only win con or did I overlook something?
Also, blue with whir of invention is really good with toolbox cards like Ensnaring Bridge.
@redbaron4850
For the Bridge, I don't play any creatures atm as a win condition. I play the combo and Ugin that's it, the rest is disruption package.
The rest depends on what the opponent is playing.
I'm still not sure if blood moon should be in the main or in the sideboard.
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"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Just had this idea for a death cloud list. Posting it so I don't forget. Will write about it later after some goldfishing. I don't own the lili's so I can't actually test it.
Dear Redbaron4850, would you share your thoughts on this list? This list strikes to me as the most interesting. I like the prospect of casting an early turn 3 Death Cloud.
Thanks! Your comments here and on other Paradox Engine forums has helped my thinking about the card and deck a lot. My original build was far from a Dice Factory model, but I am very happy I made the switch.
The Mindslaver lock sent me down a Blue Tron rabbit hole. Might be fun to throw it in if I can squeeze somewhere. Mentor was just and idea because I would like to play it somewhere, though I agree this probably isn't the best place. The new jank alt-wincon Approach of the Second Sun could be easily done and funny, but feels like a win more card.
As for the mana base...well... I play Affinity in modern as well, and was surprised how much less I liked double Opals in the Factory build. My original list ran 2 Inventor's Fair, 4 Darksteel Citadel, the Ruins, and 15 Islands. The number of times I got stuck with bad openings was maddening. Weirdly, 2 Fairs caused me more trouble than the current 4, as I only ever seemed to draw them when I didn't want them. I retooled the base and tried out a max of 15 lands, which certainly stopped the combo from stalling out, but meant that I would frequently mulligan down to five or four, which wasn't good either. And the 4 Opals and the Citadels were still a problem.
So I scrapped the Citadels and halved the Opals and moved to a more filter/tutor toolbox approach which is still evolving. So far the mana seems okay, as I can usually tutor for an opal or cornucopia early on if I need the extra blue. I am liking the Opals more as a mid-combo grab than as part of an explosive turn 1/2. Repeal is also a fantastic mid-combo play, bouncing Opals or Nodes and resetting the rocks. I agree 4 Fairs may be too much, but I would hesitate to go below three in the current build.
I have an Ensnaring Bridge and Engineered Explosives in the sideboard and am considering putting them in the main as part of the toolbox. For a while I was running Mystic Speculation as a way to filter/combo. It was simply the best when I had it with the Engine, but with no way to tutor for it, it wasn't reliable. The Batterskull from the CFB list seems to fill a similar role in terms of the combo, and I am interested in trying it out and going back to a Blue Sun's Zenith wincon. If it works, and with all the tutors, I might give an Atlas-free version a spin.
Do you have any other suggestions for a blue toolbox?
@Heskatet
Right now the wincons both run off the Atlas combo - Elixir of Immortality and Walking Ballista (which has mostly been helpful as a free mid-combo reset). My sideboard is mostly a pile of good ideas, but has things like Wurmcoil Engine. I might add some PWs like Ugin and I am liking the idea of a Slaver lock, as it would meaning adding only a single card to the current list.
@ Heskatet
It depends on your meta about the Blood Moon's. If you find a higher percentage of Tron more so than anything else, I would keep them main. I like them in the board because they are really only effective in one game most of the time and I don't see a lot of tron on mtgo.
@ jhg218
So I haven't played this exact list on MTGO, but I have played a sultai list with Fatal Push / Abrupt Decay mb and I am currently playing a Paradox Engine Death Cloud list. The only difference is that I am using different finishers. I really feel like cheap removal helps against some of our more difficult match-ups like Death's Shadow. Abrupt Decay's in the main helps against just about every deck as something to stall the board before a Wildfire/Death Cloud. It will have a harder time against Blood Moon than lists that are in other colors or not so B heavy. Tezzeret and Liliana are low to the ground walkers that are very impactful and can be cast before a Death Cloud to avoid being discarded. Ugin is a nice upper end finisher that is more versatile than Karn and can be fetched with Ancient Stirrings. Wurmcoil Engine is nice as a fast finisher or huge wall against aggro. If you face more control or path to exiles, I would sub in Batterskull. I don't own the Liliana's on mtgo unfortunately and don't plan on buying them. I think she is a great fit for that slot though.
@D0gstar
Yeah, I was thinking subbing in a Mindslaver or two instead of the Paradox Engine combo allowing you to play more control cards in addition to what you are currently playing. I agree that Approach the Second Sun would be win-more. Double Mox Opal can be pretty bad if you don't need the lotus petal effect. I do like them mid combo for an easy way to ensure an untap if it is a rough start. I also play 3 and 4 colors usually. I use voltaic key as a way to untap Opal/Cornucopia to filter mana so I need the colored mana a lot of the time. I can see not needing them nearly as much in a mono U draw-go style list. I'm pretty curious to see what a non-atlas / temple bell version would look like. I would imagine you would need a lot of cantrips if you are still trying to combo off with the Engine. You would rely on Blue Sun's and infinite mana from Batterskull for the win? Curious to see how that would work out in practice against the field. I'm guessing it would be worse against discard/counters and better against artifact removal. It seems slower, but this is a control deck you have with counter protection. There is a decent list of artifact tools on the first post. The other ones I would consider maindeck are Pithing Needle and Relic of Progenitus.
@redbaron4850
Well I play mostly paper cards magic, not online and there the meta has lots of tron, Eldrazi tron, Bant Eldrazi, Affinity, death's shadow. So I think blood moon main seems quite good.
Also the Batterskull idea looks really nice, I will add that to the deck as well instead of Wurmcoil Engine. Will post my list later
@D0gstar
Your blue shell also may have room for Tezzeret the Seeker or even Inkwell Leviathan as a finisher.
With the Mindslaver lock, the way to get it back is Academy Ruins, am I right? And 2 tolaria West to get them? Did you test how constantly you get your lock set up?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Master they threatened to darken the sky with their arrows!"
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I can totally see the need for the Opals in a multi-colored deck. In mono right now, they seem to be more important as a 0 drop, and to make a big turn three even more ridiculous, which I am fine with. And yeah, the Atlas-less deck would focus on bouncing the Batterskull and then drawing out the opponent with BSZ or hitting them with the Ballista. I do really like the flexibility of a non-targeted win through the Atlas, though, and it has been very consistent, so I am hesitant to mess with them. Plus, I agree, a single counter or discard spell could would the deck.
@Heskatet
In testing, I am finding the Mindlslaver lock to be about a turn slower and slightly harder to put together. I think it might still be a solid plan B unless I revamp and dedicate more space to it as a primary win. But then I feel like I am backing too much into Blue Tron, which is fun and all, but a different beast. I mostly play EDH, but my two 60 card decks are creature-heavy - Modern Affinity and Legacy DnT - and part of what I like about Paradox combo/Factory is how little it relies on creatures.
Right now, to fit it in, I slotted out a Spell Pierce, which is probably not the right decision, as it leaves me running only 5 counters and that doesn't feel very good. I guess I could take out Ballista, but I do like having the redundancy and another 0 drop. Maybe a Node?
I also subbed in an 3rd Tolaria West for 1 Inventors Fair, which even without Mindslaver is probably a good move. This means there are effectively '4' Academy Ruins in the deck. Sometimes the transmute cost slows the deck down, and I am considering adding a single copy of Expedition Map as an early-game tutor target. All of this comes at the expense of counters or draw spells, making the reason to be mono blue difficult to maintain.
What do y'all think about the cycling duals and Vizier of Tumbling Sands from Amonkhet? I am liking the idea of being able to turn late game land into cards even with the possibility of needing to play tap lands. And Vizier seems like she might be capable of doing a lot of work during the combo with fewer counters on the Atlas or maybe even helping the deck spin up a 1/2 turn to a full turn faster.
Edit:
Tezzeret does sound good. Not sure where I would fit him just yet. I love everything about Inkwell Leviathan, but right now I am still committed to a mostly creature-free build. That said, I did manage a win with a 25/25 Ballista on turn 4 without an Atlas due to a string of draws off Tezzeret's Gambit with two Cornucopia. Liking proliferate more and more. Do you think Steady Progress is worth a look?
I'm a long time affinity player and one of the things that had drawn me into the deck back in the days of standard was how similarly it played, dropping its whole hand turn 1-2 and making big plays early. So generally, I use Opals for early gas and to start the ramp engine a turn sooner. I don't like to see 3 of them or even 2 during a game typically unless I am mid-combo and it doesn't matter anymore. I don't think the list "needs" them at all and can do fine without them, but it will be a full turn slower typically. Generally I don't run a whole lot of interaction, maybe 3-8 cards depending on the list, and try to race most opponents. Anywho, I don't think I would go mindslaver in addition to the paradox combo. You would need a non-combo win con maindeck if you wanted two, like machine guning with Ballista. Going Mindslaver instead of Atlas would replace it allowing you 3 or so more slots for interaction. About Vizier of Tumbling Sands, I think I would still prefer Voltaic Key in that role. If you are mostly creatureless, Vizier will die to any removal mid-combo or sooner and you won't get a lot of use out of the card. If you plan on cycling the card more often than not, perhaps Twitch could be better. It is a much more versatile card for just 1 more. Steady Progress could work in a draw-go style of deck, but I would run them in addition to a playset of Tezzeret's Gambit, not in lieu of. They both cost 3 essentially and you get an extra card from gambit. About the cycling duals, I think they could be fine if you are only in 2 colors. Blasted Landscape could actually be a really good card as it doesn't slow you down at all. If you go with an expedition map and the utility land route, Crucible of Worlds could be in the deck as a tutor target as well.
Heya Redbaron, long time fringe deck player, I stumbled upon this while lurking the forums.
I've put a list together, very much a twist on the grixis flavour of the deck, but with temur (and 2 black for tezzeret) colours.
So far it's put up a decent fight against: Elves, Abzan, Delver and Burn.
I want to tweak up the threats, but am not sure in which direction to pull them.
@Haplo_64
Really solid looking list. The threat density is pretty high. The biggest thing that stands out is Witchbane Orb. I think if you are running 4 of them, Leyline of Sanctity is probably the way to go. It would also help against discard heavy matches which can be some of our worst. The deck seems like it will perform well and be able to do what it needs. I would suggest giving Lux Cannon a try as a 1 of. Perhaps in place of one of the Walking Ballista. The Ballista dies to every common removal and only pushes through for a couple points of damage usually is what I have gathered. Usually I spend turns 1-2 ramping and then trying to stabilize with a threat on turn 3. It is better in the combo build because you can machine gun the opponent with infinite mana.
My friends and I are going to GP Cleveland. It is Team Limited, but each registration comes with a free entry to a Team Unified Modern side event, so I am building my first Modern deck. I got here from the Brian DeMars list on CF and I would appreciate any feedback you could give. I have been goldfishing the combo, it is typically t4-t5, but sometimes t3. I will try bringing this to an FNM or two first before the GP once I get the cards in.
Couple Notes:
1) One of my teammates is on Skred Red, which means that I cannot sideboard Blood Moon or Anger of the Gods for the sideboard.
2) I tried a build with Darksteel Citadels and Mox Opals but I found I wasn't always able to cast Ancient Stirrings and Glint-Nest Crane in the first two turns.
The reason for my mana base is that I have 4 Wildfire which I found often bought me some time to assemble the combo kill. The mana base has been working out pretty well for me.
Yeah, you would definitely need to change up the mana base a little bit in order to support Whir of Invention. It is tough to find room for the Ghost Quarter but you could shave Inventors' Fair.
There are two ways to win with Aetherflux Reservoir. What it sounds like you're going for, if you have enough card draw, you can just chain together enough spells, so then it is really good to have two Temple Bell out at once. My main plan is the Batterskull combo. The 1-of Temple Bell is for when I don't make enough mana on a loop to have the infinite combo and then I can try to win the other way.
@kingavarice
Nice list. I'm interested to know how it plays. Having a toolbox is nice with the 3 Whirs and it's an alternate take on the combo. If I were to suggest anything, it would be to replace the Temple Bell with Otherworld Atlas. Especially if it is a backup plan. It would give you a greater chance to combo off without bricking. Is the mindslaver worth the slot maindeck if you already have two ways to win with Paradox Engine out? You could fit an Ugin maindeck and then squeeze something like Pyroclasm, Slagstorm, or maybe Crumble to Dust into the side.
@OneNineOneZero
The Glimmervoid / Spire of Industry route is very reliable when you run a lot of low cost artifacts. Tendo Ice Bridge provides colored mana only once but is not that big of a drawback for most versions of the deck. This type of mana base is better for 3+ color decks though. You can get away with way more utility lands in mono or 2 colored.
Crumble to Dust is pretty good against Tron, and can be found with Ancient Stirrings. While it doesn't allow you to replay your Inventors' Fair or Tolaria West, will the game ever get to a point where that is relevant in a competitive match? I can see it possibly helping against some of the grindier control matches but that's about it.
How do you like Planar Portal? I have considered it but it just seems to slow for me to buy/test. I really like the effect and think it would be nice mostly for finding our planeswalkers or Wildfire effects. For the Artifacts, there are usually more efficient ways to find them. I am pretty fond of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas in this slot because he is so versatile.
If you are worried about not being able to combo out due to drawing multiple lands or not having mana to cast the things you draw, Otherworld Atlas is better suited in this slot imo.
Nice match reports. Stony Silence will always and forever be the bane of this deck. It just hits harder than any artifact hate could. You are slightly better off when running a non-artifact mana base like you are currently. The most helpful thing is to learn all of the common decks and which ones generally run Stony in the side. You need to bring in enchantment hate of some sort if you are expecting it. It just turns off the whole deck. You can run some impactful non-artifacts or ways to get around it like Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Ghirapur Aether Grid, Herald of Anguish, Abrupt Decay. If you want to avoid dead draws, you need to bring in cards that can play through a Stony Silence while also putting on pressure of their own. Flickerwisp is super annoying, same with Cryptic Command.
OneNineOneZero
I don't think you can trick a player like that and even if you could, you would still have artifacts that get shut down. Almost every nonland card in your deck is an artifact. I don't think it is wise to sideboard so hard against one card. A lot of decks only run 2 stony and at most 3. It really sucks that a 2 mana card says we can't play, but it is what it is. Sometimes we just lose to it. You would end up losing other matches because you have only prepared to face Stony. Stony slows down affinity, but it doesn't shut it off. Decks bring it in against Ironworks, Tron, Lantern, and Ad Naus typically. If you watch the meta and see any of those decks doing well, expect to see it more in sideboards. I have taken to using Tezzeret Agent of Bolas in pretty much all my builds. He is a very versatile walker that can win games on his own. 5/5 Darksteel Citadels are pretty good. He's like glint-nest crane on steroids. He tutors, turns useless artifacts into beaters, fogs out opponents creatures, and can gain life against fast decks while potentially killing the opponent. I have so much to write about stony so I'll just stop here.
I'm thinking more of a Wildfire list with 3 maindeck Ward of Bones to keep the enemy down. Playing the Golem with Ward of Bones in play seems quite good after a Wildfire. I think if we went this plan, the other planeswalkers would come out and that deck would be much more budget friendly. The card is like .2 TIX on mtgo so I will probably end up buying them and doing some testing with them. For the golem to be useful, they need to either be off of their mana or not have much removal. In that death cloud list, I think Ugin just does so much more and gives the deck a nice top end to close out the game and deal with some trouble permanents, like planeswalkers.
Modern
xWBAffinityBWx
BBBVampiresBBB
BURGDice FactoryGRUB
Check out the Primer!
How much mana are you guys consistently creating across turns 2-4? And what are your payoffs? I see a lot of different variants, and I am most interested in Big Eldrazi and a combo shell using Paradox Engine. Here is my first draft at the Big Eldrazi archetype:
4 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Wastes
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Coretapper
4 Surge Node
4 Voltaic Key
4 Conduit of Ruin
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Few ways to get way up there with the ideal ones being
T1 Voltaic Key, T2 Coretapper, T3 Put 3 counters on chalice. This would net you around 8 mana if you hit those 3 land drops.
T1 Surge Node, T2 Put a counter on chalice, play coretapper, chalice for 1, another surge node, or voltaic key. T3 you would have anywhere from 5 to 9 mana with 3 land drops.
With Mox Opal or multiple coretappers, things can get nutty and are sped up by a full turn. I have played Wurmcoils on turn 2 and won by turn 5.
The tron lands could give the deck a little more of the inevitability factor against decks that run discard/artifact hate. What would the sideboard look like? How do you deal with Stony Silence? Do you think you should run Expedition Map to help find the tron pieces or a Sanctum? Eye of Ugin would be awesome because you can use it multiple times. Sanctum helps against removal it looks like? You can't use it unless you are already casting a titan. Is it just win-more or does it help against decks that answer the titans quickly?
Neat list, lost of questions. Pretty curious to see how the deck would work out in practice. I have never heard of the legacy deck.
edit: Just checked out the legacy list and my is it spicy.
Tron lands are slower than the 12 post setup and harder to rely on naturally. In addition, Eldrazi Temple, Eye of Ugin, Ancient Tomb, and City of Traitors are all good ramp on their own and can push the lock pieces out early. Not to mention more than twice the number of artifacts are in here to ramp in a similar manner. It isn't that much slower on the artifact ramp side of things but is harder to set up and requires nearly twice the amount of artifacts to make it happen. These used up slots push all of the prison cards out of the build in modern as you are put in a place where you want to run threats or lock pieces. Not having Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void, and All is Dust takes away all of the deck's interaction until the Titans come out. Thought-Knot is good early, but can't get there alone. Just some thoughts, still interested in this style of deck.
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With Wildfire in the deck we are able to attack from so many angles it's just good. Also I like Monastery Siege but I have the problem to not know which 3 drop I need to play first, because I have Siege, Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge in my main.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Delay and condescend may be reasonable as well. Does this all seem like a reasonable route to take? The CFB article was certainly full of interesting ideas. I have been changing this version a lot the past couple of weeks.
It entirely depends on the situation. They each serve their own purpose. It can be a different one first even against the same opponent.
When it comes to Blood Moon, you need to ask yourself these questions. If you find yourself answering yes, then you should play this first.
1. Is the opponent playing Tron?
2. Is the opponent in 2 or more non-red colors?
3. Does the opponent have only non-basics or 1 basic?
4. Are they playing spells with a heavy non-red requirement like Cryptic Command in 2 and 3 color decks.
5. Could they play an impactful xCC spell in the next turn and only have 1 basic of that color like Liliana of the Veil in Jund and Abzan.
6. Are you getting beaten down by manlands or outclassed by their utility lands? Inkmoth Nexus, Raging Ravine, Ghost Quarter, Academy Ruins.
Ensnaring Bridge also has times when you want to slam one down turn 3. Ask yourself these questions.
1. Can you empty your hand quickly or below the average attack of the opponent's creatures? (Death's Shadow, Bant Eldrazi, Delve Decks, etc)
2. Does the enemy have an aggro deck?
3. Are you trying to win without creatures?
I haven't played with Monastery Siege just yet, but I plan on trying it out soon. I can only assume when I think you would want this, but if the enemy is playing a combo deck or a target heavy deck like Jund or Burn. If they are playing against a non-interactive deck, you play it for the filter effect early to try and find Wildfire/Ugin. It could help speed up finding win-cons late game as well which is welcome.
@ D0gstar
Welcome to the Factory.
I've thought about going the mono blue tron route possibly using Mindslaver lock as the win condition. Is it ever a problem not having the U without Astral Cornucopia or Mox Opal mid combo? The deck has a lot of filter/tutors which seems pretty nice. I really think 4 of a legendary land is too many for the deck or at least it causes problems more often than I am comfortable with. 17 lands is a pretty tight mana base and we usually rely on 3-4 Mox Opals to supplement the lands. Aside from that, the deck looks like it would be pretty solid.
About the UW version. Dispatch is very good in the deck and we easily have metalcraft turn 1-3 depending on the list. Glint-Nest Crane can be a good card in a list with other impactful artifacts. I dropped from 4 to 2 of them in my Eldrazi list and they perform well digging for equipment or ramp. Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and Ancient Stirrings are generally better for the dig effect though. Monastery Mentor could get there I suppose. Would that be in addition to the combo? I think it would be great when it is good and dies if the opponent has any removal.
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Is engine and atlas the only win con or did I overlook something?
Also, blue with whir of invention is really good with toolbox cards like Ensnaring Bridge.
@redbaron4850
For the Bridge, I don't play any creatures atm as a win condition. I play the combo and Ugin that's it, the rest is disruption package.
The rest depends on what the opponent is playing.
I'm still not sure if blood moon should be in the main or in the sideboard.
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
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Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Dear Redbaron4850, would you share your thoughts on this list? This list strikes to me as the most interesting. I like the prospect of casting an early turn 3 Death Cloud.
Thanks! Your comments here and on other Paradox Engine forums has helped my thinking about the card and deck a lot. My original build was far from a Dice Factory model, but I am very happy I made the switch.
The Mindslaver lock sent me down a Blue Tron rabbit hole. Might be fun to throw it in if I can squeeze somewhere. Mentor was just and idea because I would like to play it somewhere, though I agree this probably isn't the best place. The new jank alt-wincon Approach of the Second Sun could be easily done and funny, but feels like a win more card.
As for the mana base...well... I play Affinity in modern as well, and was surprised how much less I liked double Opals in the Factory build. My original list ran 2 Inventor's Fair, 4 Darksteel Citadel, the Ruins, and 15 Islands. The number of times I got stuck with bad openings was maddening. Weirdly, 2 Fairs caused me more trouble than the current 4, as I only ever seemed to draw them when I didn't want them. I retooled the base and tried out a max of 15 lands, which certainly stopped the combo from stalling out, but meant that I would frequently mulligan down to five or four, which wasn't good either. And the 4 Opals and the Citadels were still a problem.
So I scrapped the Citadels and halved the Opals and moved to a more filter/tutor toolbox approach which is still evolving. So far the mana seems okay, as I can usually tutor for an opal or cornucopia early on if I need the extra blue. I am liking the Opals more as a mid-combo grab than as part of an explosive turn 1/2. Repeal is also a fantastic mid-combo play, bouncing Opals or Nodes and resetting the rocks. I agree 4 Fairs may be too much, but I would hesitate to go below three in the current build.
I have an Ensnaring Bridge and Engineered Explosives in the sideboard and am considering putting them in the main as part of the toolbox. For a while I was running Mystic Speculation as a way to filter/combo. It was simply the best when I had it with the Engine, but with no way to tutor for it, it wasn't reliable. The Batterskull from the CFB list seems to fill a similar role in terms of the combo, and I am interested in trying it out and going back to a Blue Sun's Zenith wincon. If it works, and with all the tutors, I might give an Atlas-free version a spin.
Do you have any other suggestions for a blue toolbox?
@Heskatet
Right now the wincons both run off the Atlas combo - Elixir of Immortality and Walking Ballista (which has mostly been helpful as a free mid-combo reset). My sideboard is mostly a pile of good ideas, but has things like Wurmcoil Engine. I might add some PWs like Ugin and I am liking the idea of a Slaver lock, as it would meaning adding only a single card to the current list.
It depends on your meta about the Blood Moon's. If you find a higher percentage of Tron more so than anything else, I would keep them main. I like them in the board because they are really only effective in one game most of the time and I don't see a lot of tron on mtgo.
@ jhg218
So I haven't played this exact list on MTGO, but I have played a sultai list with Fatal Push / Abrupt Decay mb and I am currently playing a Paradox Engine Death Cloud list. The only difference is that I am using different finishers. I really feel like cheap removal helps against some of our more difficult match-ups like Death's Shadow. Abrupt Decay's in the main helps against just about every deck as something to stall the board before a Wildfire/Death Cloud. It will have a harder time against Blood Moon than lists that are in other colors or not so B heavy. Tezzeret and Liliana are low to the ground walkers that are very impactful and can be cast before a Death Cloud to avoid being discarded. Ugin is a nice upper end finisher that is more versatile than Karn and can be fetched with Ancient Stirrings. Wurmcoil Engine is nice as a fast finisher or huge wall against aggro. If you face more control or path to exiles, I would sub in Batterskull. I don't own the Liliana's on mtgo unfortunately and don't plan on buying them. I think she is a great fit for that slot though.
@D0gstar
Yeah, I was thinking subbing in a Mindslaver or two instead of the Paradox Engine combo allowing you to play more control cards in addition to what you are currently playing. I agree that Approach the Second Sun would be win-more. Double Mox Opal can be pretty bad if you don't need the lotus petal effect. I do like them mid combo for an easy way to ensure an untap if it is a rough start. I also play 3 and 4 colors usually. I use voltaic key as a way to untap Opal/Cornucopia to filter mana so I need the colored mana a lot of the time. I can see not needing them nearly as much in a mono U draw-go style list. I'm pretty curious to see what a non-atlas / temple bell version would look like. I would imagine you would need a lot of cantrips if you are still trying to combo off with the Engine. You would rely on Blue Sun's and infinite mana from Batterskull for the win? Curious to see how that would work out in practice against the field. I'm guessing it would be worse against discard/counters and better against artifact removal. It seems slower, but this is a control deck you have with counter protection. There is a decent list of artifact tools on the first post. The other ones I would consider maindeck are Pithing Needle and Relic of Progenitus.
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Well I play mostly paper cards magic, not online and there the meta has lots of tron, Eldrazi tron, Bant Eldrazi, Affinity, death's shadow. So I think blood moon main seems quite good.
Also the Batterskull idea looks really nice, I will add that to the deck as well instead of Wurmcoil Engine. Will post my list later
@D0gstar
Your blue shell also may have room for Tezzeret the Seeker or even Inkwell Leviathan as a finisher.
With the Mindslaver lock, the way to get it back is Academy Ruins, am I right? And 2 tolaria West to get them? Did you test how constantly you get your lock set up?
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
I can totally see the need for the Opals in a multi-colored deck. In mono right now, they seem to be more important as a 0 drop, and to make a big turn three even more ridiculous, which I am fine with. And yeah, the Atlas-less deck would focus on bouncing the Batterskull and then drawing out the opponent with BSZ or hitting them with the Ballista. I do really like the flexibility of a non-targeted win through the Atlas, though, and it has been very consistent, so I am hesitant to mess with them. Plus, I agree, a single counter or discard spell could would the deck.
@Heskatet
In testing, I am finding the Mindlslaver lock to be about a turn slower and slightly harder to put together. I think it might still be a solid plan B unless I revamp and dedicate more space to it as a primary win. But then I feel like I am backing too much into Blue Tron, which is fun and all, but a different beast. I mostly play EDH, but my two 60 card decks are creature-heavy - Modern Affinity and Legacy DnT - and part of what I like about Paradox combo/Factory is how little it relies on creatures.
Right now, to fit it in, I slotted out a Spell Pierce, which is probably not the right decision, as it leaves me running only 5 counters and that doesn't feel very good. I guess I could take out Ballista, but I do like having the redundancy and another 0 drop. Maybe a Node?
I also subbed in an 3rd Tolaria West for 1 Inventors Fair, which even without Mindslaver is probably a good move. This means there are effectively '4' Academy Ruins in the deck. Sometimes the transmute cost slows the deck down, and I am considering adding a single copy of Expedition Map as an early-game tutor target. All of this comes at the expense of counters or draw spells, making the reason to be mono blue difficult to maintain.
What do y'all think about the cycling duals and Vizier of Tumbling Sands from Amonkhet? I am liking the idea of being able to turn late game land into cards even with the possibility of needing to play tap lands. And Vizier seems like she might be capable of doing a lot of work during the combo with fewer counters on the Atlas or maybe even helping the deck spin up a 1/2 turn to a full turn faster.
Edit:
Tezzeret does sound good. Not sure where I would fit him just yet. I love everything about Inkwell Leviathan, but right now I am still committed to a mostly creature-free build. That said, I did manage a win with a 25/25 Ballista on turn 4 without an Atlas due to a string of draws off Tezzeret's Gambit with two Cornucopia. Liking proliferate more and more. Do you think Steady Progress is worth a look?
I'm a long time affinity player and one of the things that had drawn me into the deck back in the days of standard was how similarly it played, dropping its whole hand turn 1-2 and making big plays early. So generally, I use Opals for early gas and to start the ramp engine a turn sooner. I don't like to see 3 of them or even 2 during a game typically unless I am mid-combo and it doesn't matter anymore. I don't think the list "needs" them at all and can do fine without them, but it will be a full turn slower typically. Generally I don't run a whole lot of interaction, maybe 3-8 cards depending on the list, and try to race most opponents. Anywho, I don't think I would go mindslaver in addition to the paradox combo. You would need a non-combo win con maindeck if you wanted two, like machine guning with Ballista. Going Mindslaver instead of Atlas would replace it allowing you 3 or so more slots for interaction. About Vizier of Tumbling Sands, I think I would still prefer Voltaic Key in that role. If you are mostly creatureless, Vizier will die to any removal mid-combo or sooner and you won't get a lot of use out of the card. If you plan on cycling the card more often than not, perhaps Twitch could be better. It is a much more versatile card for just 1 more. Steady Progress could work in a draw-go style of deck, but I would run them in addition to a playset of Tezzeret's Gambit, not in lieu of. They both cost 3 essentially and you get an extra card from gambit. About the cycling duals, I think they could be fine if you are only in 2 colors. Blasted Landscape could actually be a really good card as it doesn't slow you down at all. If you go with an expedition map and the utility land route, Crucible of Worlds could be in the deck as a tutor target as well.
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I've put a list together, very much a twist on the grixis flavour of the deck, but with temur (and 2 black for tezzeret) colours.
So far it's put up a decent fight against: Elves, Abzan, Delver and Burn.
I want to tweak up the threats, but am not sure in which direction to pull them.
4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Surge Node
4 Coretapper
Abuse
2 Walking Ballista
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Wildfire
2 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Tezzeret's Gambit
Land
1 Academy Ruins
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
2 Inventor's Fair
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Spire of Industry
4 Mox Opal
4 Warping Wail
4 Natural State
3 Torpor Orb
4 Witchbane Orb
I love wildfire turn 3 on a decent hand, so many decks find it almost impossible to recover from.
Any input/thoughts?
Really solid looking list. The threat density is pretty high. The biggest thing that stands out is Witchbane Orb. I think if you are running 4 of them, Leyline of Sanctity is probably the way to go. It would also help against discard heavy matches which can be some of our worst. The deck seems like it will perform well and be able to do what it needs. I would suggest giving Lux Cannon a try as a 1 of. Perhaps in place of one of the Walking Ballista. The Ballista dies to every common removal and only pushes through for a couple points of damage usually is what I have gathered. Usually I spend turns 1-2 ramping and then trying to stabilize with a threat on turn 3. It is better in the combo build because you can machine gun the opponent with infinite mana.
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4 Astral Cornucopia
4 Everflowing Chalice
4 Surge Node
3 Paradox Engine
1 Temple Bell
1 Batterskull
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Mindslaver
Creatures:
4 Coretapper
3 Glint-Nest Crane
3 Whir of Invention
Land:
3 Inventors' Fair
4 Spire of Industry
4 Glimmervoid
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
3 Botanical Sanctum
1 Academy Ruins
Sorcery:
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
4 Wildfire
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Welding Jar
1 Pithing Needle
2 Sun Droplet
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Couple Notes:
1) One of my teammates is on Skred Red, which means that I cannot sideboard Blood Moon or Anger of the Gods for the sideboard.
2) I tried a build with Darksteel Citadels and Mox Opals but I found I wasn't always able to cast Ancient Stirrings and Glint-Nest Crane in the first two turns.
Judge Tower: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/80859
As for your deck, I think that Whir of Invention is absolutely vital. I think you could cut the Planar Portal and a Temple Bell.
As for your question, I like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon more than Karn Liberated because you can minus to clear their board, but I also like the Wildfire in those slots. The Batterskull generates infinite mana when you have Paradox Engine if your rocks generate at least 9 mana per loop and it is infinite spells for Aetherflux Reservoir.
Judge Tower: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/80859
There are two ways to win with Aetherflux Reservoir. What it sounds like you're going for, if you have enough card draw, you can just chain together enough spells, so then it is really good to have two Temple Bell out at once. My main plan is the Batterskull combo. The 1-of Temple Bell is for when I don't make enough mana on a loop to have the infinite combo and then I can try to win the other way.
Judge Tower: http://www.cubetutor.com/viewcube/80859
Nice list. I'm interested to know how it plays. Having a toolbox is nice with the 3 Whirs and it's an alternate take on the combo. If I were to suggest anything, it would be to replace the Temple Bell with Otherworld Atlas. Especially if it is a backup plan. It would give you a greater chance to combo off without bricking. Is the mindslaver worth the slot maindeck if you already have two ways to win with Paradox Engine out? You could fit an Ugin maindeck and then squeeze something like Pyroclasm, Slagstorm, or maybe Crumble to Dust into the side.
@OneNineOneZero
The Glimmervoid / Spire of Industry route is very reliable when you run a lot of low cost artifacts. Tendo Ice Bridge provides colored mana only once but is not that big of a drawback for most versions of the deck. This type of mana base is better for 3+ color decks though. You can get away with way more utility lands in mono or 2 colored.
Crumble to Dust is pretty good against Tron, and can be found with Ancient Stirrings. While it doesn't allow you to replay your Inventors' Fair or Tolaria West, will the game ever get to a point where that is relevant in a competitive match? I can see it possibly helping against some of the grindier control matches but that's about it.
How do you like Planar Portal? I have considered it but it just seems to slow for me to buy/test. I really like the effect and think it would be nice mostly for finding our planeswalkers or Wildfire effects. For the Artifacts, there are usually more efficient ways to find them. I am pretty fond of Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas in this slot because he is so versatile.
If you are worried about not being able to combo out due to drawing multiple lands or not having mana to cast the things you draw, Otherworld Atlas is better suited in this slot imo.
Nice match reports. Stony Silence will always and forever be the bane of this deck. It just hits harder than any artifact hate could. You are slightly better off when running a non-artifact mana base like you are currently. The most helpful thing is to learn all of the common decks and which ones generally run Stony in the side. You need to bring in enchantment hate of some sort if you are expecting it. It just turns off the whole deck. You can run some impactful non-artifacts or ways to get around it like Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, Ghirapur Aether Grid, Herald of Anguish, Abrupt Decay. If you want to avoid dead draws, you need to bring in cards that can play through a Stony Silence while also putting on pressure of their own. Flickerwisp is super annoying, same with Cryptic Command.
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I don't think you can trick a player like that and even if you could, you would still have artifacts that get shut down. Almost every nonland card in your deck is an artifact. I don't think it is wise to sideboard so hard against one card. A lot of decks only run 2 stony and at most 3. It really sucks that a 2 mana card says we can't play, but it is what it is. Sometimes we just lose to it. You would end up losing other matches because you have only prepared to face Stony. Stony slows down affinity, but it doesn't shut it off. Decks bring it in against Ironworks, Tron, Lantern, and Ad Naus typically. If you watch the meta and see any of those decks doing well, expect to see it more in sideboards. I have taken to using Tezzeret Agent of Bolas in pretty much all my builds. He is a very versatile walker that can win games on his own. 5/5 Darksteel Citadels are pretty good. He's like glint-nest crane on steroids. He tutors, turns useless artifacts into beaters, fogs out opponents creatures, and can gain life against fast decks while potentially killing the opponent. I have so much to write about stony so I'll just stop here.
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