True, I was playing a game against Jeskai Control last night, was able to GQ 2 colonnades and get Saheeli and Voice off of one titan which was hard cast. Then he didn't respect the saheeli on the board and emptied his hand to even up the board state... and I had an evolution waiting with a rallier on field ready and willing to sacrifice himself to a million kittys.
I seem to have issues beating Death's Shadow - what's our plan there really? Thinking about maybe putting 2-3 Worship in the sideboard, also helps vs the Burn matchup.
It's just different ways to build the deck depending on what meta you are entering. For example, I only play on MTGO, so there is a lot of eldrazi, DS, and affinity, so I play a deck that can threaten T3 combo, but also has the ability to play a more GWr mid-range approach if needed. The deck you posted is great for metas that allow a slightly slower, more controlling build, but I can see it having issues dealing with something like Affinity, Revolt Zoo, Grishoalbrand, and Burn. Also, there aren't a ton of pilots of this deck out there, so the testing is slow, the deck you posted could be closer to the "optimal build" we just don't know yet.
Thanks for the response. I was thinking the same thing - that it is a bit more controlly/midrange-y and thus a slower build - so I've been tweaking the deck to add better game against the decks you listed above. Specifically, I'm thinking 4 Kitchen Finks to help against Zoo and Burn, and then adding in Scavenging Ooze mainboard to also help shore up deficiencies against GY-based strategies (and just add general awesomeness). I really, really like the feel of the deck so far and think it has potential. Now I just need to get in some playtesting!
I was the one playing the deck TheoryCraft referred to in his earlier post (www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15456&d=294138&f=MO). To answer your questions: it's indeed a bit slower build. But the reason to do so is exactly to beat the decks like burn, revolt zoo, death's shadow and eldrazi. 4 finks, moons and worships make these matchups really good for us. Actually, I've tweaked the deck after that tournament to be geared towards T3 combo more, without losing it's controlling value: +2 lotus cobra, -1 voice, -1 hierarch.
If you want to have a strong matchup against shadow (see nal2's post above) then going all-in T3 combo is not the way to go imho, because of all the removal and hand disruption. Moon and worship do a good job there.
Just started playing the deck and had a few questions.
1. How is the Burn matchup? Seems like we can never combo if they hold up mana. Do we need to run Finks or Baloth in the main or are they more SB?
2. Dredge, it seems Wall blocks a lot and Staticaster is very good. What hate do we need in the SB? RIP? Surgical? Loaming Shaman? or Nothing?
3. 3 or 4 Felidar Guardian. Seems you'd want 4 to combo as fast as possible, but I've seen lists with 3.
4. Devoted Druid Combo deck is very popular, do we run Grafdigger's even though it shuts off Evolution just because it's so good in the matchup, or is Linvala and say Phyrexian Revoker good enough?
5. How do we beat Elves/Merfolk/Wide Strategies? I haven't seen any lists running Engineered Explosives and I'm not sure why. Maybe Kozilek's Return?
2. Dredge is a tough matchup imo, haven't faced it that often luckily but Gaddock Teeg is a must to shut down Conflagrate which is the toughest card to beat. I'm running 3 Nihil Spellbomb in my list for this matchup (and Living End which also is tough).
Nihil seems a little loose, idk. I haven't soon many lists running Ooze which would make more sense or something like Surgical.
True that Teeg/Linvala is great vs Elves, but Merfolk we don't have much.
I guess we don't need an EE or sweeper, just combo vs them?
And I assume you meant Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Yeah, Cataclysmic Gearhulk Great vs Merfolks.
My list is running 2 (originally 3) Renegade Ralliers, so that's why Nihil Spellbomb is pretty nice there. Ooze is too mana intense, you pretty much always tap out for spells with this deck imo. Surgical is ok, but doesn't really help vs Living End.
I've been playing the deck using AutmnLily's list linked a few pages back and theres a few things I noticed that I would like other people's takes on.
First, our mana is god awful and could be a lot better. I often find myself screwed on colors because I either fetched wrong or got ghost quartered. What can we do about this? I dont think 10 fetches and five different shocks is right. We are too fragile in this regard.
Second, we don't play nearly enough things at instant speed to get our combo through reliably. Instead of wondering if the coast is clear and just going for it or deciding not to, I want to be able to threaten them with something that will value them at instant speed. As it stands, you basically have to just repeatedly tap out and hope they waste their cards or that you out-value them. I'm not sure this is the best.
I've been playing the deck using AutmnLily's list linked a few pages back and theres a few things I noticed that I would like other people's takes on.
First, our mana is god awful and could be a lot better. I often find myself screwed on colors because I either fetched wrong or got ghost quartered. What can we do about this? I dont think 10 fetches and five different shocks is right. We are too fragile in this regard.
Second, we don't play nearly enough things at instant speed to get our combo through reliably. Instead of wondering if the coast is clear and just going for it or deciding not to, I want to be able to threaten them with something that will value them at instant speed. As it stands, you basically have to just repeatedly tap out and hope they waste their cards or that you out-value them. I'm not sure this is the best.
I haven't had any issues with the mana base and I've been running a derivation of @JochemW's list, which is arguably in some sense more mana-intensive (i.e.: it has a stronger R presence with mainboard Blood Moon). Between having 4 Birds of Paradise and 2 Noble Hierarch, coupled with 4 Oath of Nissa, mana-fixing should not be an issue, right? Regarding the combo piece, I've enjoyed running the deck as a midrange deck first and foremost with the possibility of combo. Even if you don't use Felidar Guardian to combo straight up, its blink ability on cards such as Kitchen Finks or Oath of Nissa is great value. Your opponent will spend so much time trying to combat your value-train that the combo should be relatively open when you go for it. And if they are holding back their resources to stop the combo, you should be able to kill them through your mid range value led by Voice of Resurgence and Nahiri. Personally, I feel as though trying to run the deck as a Splinter Twin-lite (i.e. play instant speed into Splinter Twin) is just bad because it is a worse version of that deck. Just my 2 cents.
It's just different ways to build the deck depending on what meta you are entering. For example, I only play on MTGO, so there is a lot of eldrazi, DS, and affinity, so I play a deck that can threaten T3 combo, but also has the ability to play a more GWr mid-range approach if needed. The deck you posted is great for metas that allow a slightly slower, more controlling build, but I can see it having issues dealing with something like Affinity, Revolt Zoo, Grishoalbrand, and Burn. Also, there aren't a ton of pilots of this deck out there, so the testing is slow, the deck you posted could be closer to the "optimal build" we just don't know yet.
Thanks for the response. I was thinking the same thing - that it is a bit more controlly/midrange-y and thus a slower build - so I've been tweaking the deck to add better game against the decks you listed above. Specifically, I'm thinking 4 Kitchen Finks to help against Zoo and Burn, and then adding in Scavenging Ooze mainboard to also help shore up deficiencies against GY-based strategies (and just add general awesomeness). I really, really like the feel of the deck so far and think it has potential. Now I just need to get in some playtesting!
I was the one playing the deck TheoryCraft referred to in his earlier post (www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15456&d=294138&f=MO). To answer your questions: it's indeed a bit slower build. But the reason to do so is exactly to beat the decks like burn, revolt zoo, death's shadow and eldrazi. 4 finks, moons and worships make these matchups really good for us. Actually, I've tweaked the deck after that tournament to be geared towards T3 combo more, without losing it's controlling value: +2 lotus cobra, -1 voice, -1 hierarch.
If you want to have a strong matchup against shadow (see nal2's post above) then going all-in T3 combo is not the way to go imho, because of all the removal and hand disruption. Moon and worship do a good job there.
Thank you for the response, @JochemW. How have the Lotus Cobra been faring? Have you made any other revisions to the deck recently? And do you feel as though Worship is essential for the version you run?
Thoughts on Sun Titan? I really like the card and it has tons of value, but in Game 1 I want to be trying to combo and the card seems clunky at 6 mana. Modern is such a fast format it just seems too slow.
Personally I would never cut Sun Titan from my main board. Being able to sacrifice a Felidar Guardian and find a big threat that also brings back Saheeli Rai (and makes a new titan that brings back 2 more stuff) is a big deal. It also allows you to play your Saheelis more loosely, making your opponent spend attacks on it and then later you combo them off with Sun Titan and 2x Saheelis.
Thoughts on Sun Titan? I really like the card and it has tons of value, but in Game 1 I want to be trying to combo and the card seems clunky at 6 mana. Modern is such a fast format it just seems too slow.
Personally I would never cut Sun Titan from my main board. Being able to sacrifice a Felidar Guardian and find a big threat that also brings back Saheeli Rai (and makes a new titan that brings back 2 more stuff) is a big deal. It also allows you to play your Saheelis more loosely, making your opponent spend attacks on it and then later you combo them off with Sun Titan and 2x Saheelis.
Thoughts on Sun Titan? I really like the card and it has tons of value, but in Game 1 I want to be trying to combo and the card seems clunky at 6 mana. Modern is such a fast format it just seems too slow.
Maybe throw it in the SB for the grindy matchups?
Makes sense, but why do you only play 3 Guardian then?
Also, why is Autumn's manabase greedy? Is it because no Island and playing Blood Moon? I would never want to draw a basic Island when playing this deck, it's just bad with Voice and you're a base G/W deck.
I guess the matchups where you want Moon you also want counterspells most likely, but I would also hate drawing Island and Gavony in my opener when I have Voice.
I play 1 Quarter/ 1 Gavony, maybe I should cut the Quarter for 1 Island? I just love having 1 Quarter in the main to try to steal games vs big mana decks game 1.
It's just different ways to build the deck depending on what meta you are entering. For example, I only play on MTGO, so there is a lot of eldrazi, DS, and affinity, so I play a deck that can threaten T3 combo, but also has the ability to play a more GWr mid-range approach if needed. The deck you posted is great for metas that allow a slightly slower, more controlling build, but I can see it having issues dealing with something like Affinity, Revolt Zoo, Grishoalbrand, and Burn. Also, there aren't a ton of pilots of this deck out there, so the testing is slow, the deck you posted could be closer to the "optimal build" we just don't know yet.
Thanks for the response. I was thinking the same thing - that it is a bit more controlly/midrange-y and thus a slower build - so I've been tweaking the deck to add better game against the decks you listed above. Specifically, I'm thinking 4 Kitchen Finks to help against Zoo and Burn, and then adding in Scavenging Ooze mainboard to also help shore up deficiencies against GY-based strategies (and just add general awesomeness). I really, really like the feel of the deck so far and think it has potential. Now I just need to get in some playtesting!
I was the one playing the deck TheoryCraft referred to in his earlier post (www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15456&d=294138&f=MO). To answer your questions: it's indeed a bit slower build. But the reason to do so is exactly to beat the decks like burn, revolt zoo, death's shadow and eldrazi. 4 finks, moons and worships make these matchups really good for us. Actually, I've tweaked the deck after that tournament to be geared towards T3 combo more, without losing it's controlling value: +2 lotus cobra, -1 voice, -1 hierarch.
If you want to have a strong matchup against shadow (see nal2's post above) then going all-in T3 combo is not the way to go imho, because of all the removal and hand disruption. Moon and worship do a good job there.
Thank you for the response, @JochemW. How have the Lotus Cobra been faring? Have you made any other revisions to the deck recently? And do you feel as though Worship is essential for the version you run?
I was very sceptic about Lotus Cobra, until I tried him. It's really good. Not only does it allow you to combo out on T3 more often than with just T1 birds - T2 saheeli - T3 cat, more importantly it allows you to combo out on T3 without having to deploy Saheeli on T2. (T2 cobra means that you can play cat+saheeli on T3 or saheeli+evolution T3, both without the need of any other board presence) This means that opponents often don't see it coming and tap out on their T2. Also Saheeli is not exposed for opposing attackers.
Worship is very good against eldrazi decks, something we would otherwise struggle with, especially game 1 most opponents don't have a good way of dealing with it. I really like it a lot, but I haven't tested it enough to conclusively say how many is the optimal number. Maybe those two in the board should be dusk/dawns, or something else.
I feel bad saying this but I don't believe you haven't had mana problems with that list. 10 basics is incredibly greedy when youre on 4 colors. You have 1 source of red mana that isn't a birds of paradise, and you've got a Kiki-Jiki. Have you never played against a Ghost Quarter deck? Do people never bolt your birds? You have Saheelis, Nahiris, Blood Moons and a Kiki. A well timed bolt (i.e. any time) or a ghostquarter on your red source turns off 8 cards in your deck and completely prevents you from comboing. You also don't have ralliers or eternal witnesses to mitigate the risk of losing a land. I don't understand how you've been avoiding what looks like a glaring issue in your list, and is a huge problem for me in what I feel is a list that is less susceptible to it.
I suppose you have 4 extra sources for your planeswalkers, but needing two birds or a blood moon in play to cast a Kiki-jiki seems really really ambitious.
-2/0 GW Coco
-1/2 GR Valukut
-2/0 Grixis Shadow
-2/1 BW Tokens
-2/0 Grixis Control
After testing so many different variants, and having success with pretty much all of them, I'm convinced this shell is just flat out good. I feel like i'm doing really dang good in testing no matter how I set up the deck. Granted i'm testing on Cockatrice, so there's a good chance i'm just matching up against inexperienced players, but it's still promising results, and convinces me this deck is worth playing right now.
The 5c list ran surprisingly well. The main drawback of the 5c list is obv the mana base. I basically left out all the bells and whistles of any tech lands, and just went straight for color. Yeah it's 5 colors, but it's really a GW deck with small splashes. With the mana base set up, and the 8 dorks, I never had any issues with casting my cards.
Siege Rhino unsurprisingly is a friggin house. He can stabilize a game basically on his own, or close the show within a few turns. Blinking with Cat feels great, but copying with Saheeli is just insane, and puts absurd pressure on the opponent. Casting it wasn't in issue when drawn, but easily the best Evo target to sac Voice into. Feels super powerful.
4 Finks is value city, and felt pretty good. Another good card to blink with Cat, and you can even reset it after persisting once. Between Voice, and Finks, it's really hard for opponents to deal with everything, and still be able to stop our combo.
Turns out Tireless Tracker is really good. Hard to see the cards power until you play with it, but you, AND your opponent will quickly realize this guy needs to be dealt with ASAP, or he will get out of control quick.
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Not just the Tendo King, the power of the Galactic Leyline surpasses that of the Tempa Emperor, No!, It's magnificent power is even greater than that!
They both seem really good vs Death Shadow, and copying one with Saheeli is a lot of damage. With how popular DSJ is I feel one of them deserves a SB slot.
Wow I love this deck. It's a nice aggro deck with a combo thrown in for good measure. If I cut a few creatures and a Saheeli Rai and put in Glittering Wish would that be okay? That way I kind of get Saheeli Rai 4-7 when I put one in the sideboard.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
I was the one playing the deck TheoryCraft referred to in his earlier post (www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15456&d=294138&f=MO). To answer your questions: it's indeed a bit slower build. But the reason to do so is exactly to beat the decks like burn, revolt zoo, death's shadow and eldrazi. 4 finks, moons and worships make these matchups really good for us. Actually, I've tweaked the deck after that tournament to be geared towards T3 combo more, without losing it's controlling value: +2 lotus cobra, -1 voice, -1 hierarch.
If you want to have a strong matchup against shadow (see nal2's post above) then going all-in T3 combo is not the way to go imho, because of all the removal and hand disruption. Moon and worship do a good job there.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
1. How is the Burn matchup? Seems like we can never combo if they hold up mana. Do we need to run Finks or Baloth in the main or are they more SB?
2. Dredge, it seems Wall blocks a lot and Staticaster is very good. What hate do we need in the SB? RIP? Surgical? Loaming Shaman? or Nothing?
3. 3 or 4 Felidar Guardian. Seems you'd want 4 to combo as fast as possible, but I've seen lists with 3.
4. Devoted Druid Combo deck is very popular, do we run Grafdigger's even though it shuts off Evolution just because it's so good in the matchup, or is Linvala and say Phyrexian Revoker good enough?
5. How do we beat Elves/Merfolk/Wide Strategies? I haven't seen any lists running Engineered Explosives and I'm not sure why. Maybe Kozilek's Return?
4. Gaddock Teeg and Linvala as well as Izzet Staticaster comes in here.
5. I and others have had some success with Cataclysmic Gearhulk against wider decks
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
True that Teeg/Linvala is great vs Elves, but Merfolk we don't have much.
I guess we don't need an EE or sweeper, just combo vs them?
And I assume you meant Cataclysmic Gearhulk
Yeah, Cataclysmic Gearhulk Great vs Merfolks.
My list is running 2 (originally 3) Renegade Ralliers, so that's why Nihil Spellbomb is pretty nice there. Ooze is too mana intense, you pretty much always tap out for spells with this deck imo. Surgical is ok, but doesn't really help vs Living End.
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
First, our mana is god awful and could be a lot better. I often find myself screwed on colors because I either fetched wrong or got ghost quartered. What can we do about this? I dont think 10 fetches and five different shocks is right. We are too fragile in this regard.
Second, we don't play nearly enough things at instant speed to get our combo through reliably. Instead of wondering if the coast is clear and just going for it or deciding not to, I want to be able to threaten them with something that will value them at instant speed. As it stands, you basically have to just repeatedly tap out and hope they waste their cards or that you out-value them. I'm not sure this is the best.
I haven't had any issues with the mana base and I've been running a derivation of @JochemW's list, which is arguably in some sense more mana-intensive (i.e.: it has a stronger R presence with mainboard Blood Moon). Between having 4 Birds of Paradise and 2 Noble Hierarch, coupled with 4 Oath of Nissa, mana-fixing should not be an issue, right? Regarding the combo piece, I've enjoyed running the deck as a midrange deck first and foremost with the possibility of combo. Even if you don't use Felidar Guardian to combo straight up, its blink ability on cards such as Kitchen Finks or Oath of Nissa is great value. Your opponent will spend so much time trying to combat your value-train that the combo should be relatively open when you go for it. And if they are holding back their resources to stop the combo, you should be able to kill them through your mid range value led by Voice of Resurgence and Nahiri. Personally, I feel as though trying to run the deck as a Splinter Twin-lite (i.e. play instant speed into Splinter Twin) is just bad because it is a worse version of that deck. Just my 2 cents.
Thank you for the response, @JochemW. How have the Lotus Cobra been faring? Have you made any other revisions to the deck recently? And do you feel as though Worship is essential for the version you run?
Maybe throw it in the SB for the grindy matchups?
11-3-1 @ GP Copenhagen: Top Stories of Grand Prix Copenhagen
Makes sense, but why do you only play 3 Guardian then?
Also, why is Autumn's manabase greedy? Is it because no Island and playing Blood Moon? I would never want to draw a basic Island when playing this deck, it's just bad with Voice and you're a base G/W deck.
I guess the matchups where you want Moon you also want counterspells most likely, but I would also hate drawing Island and Gavony in my opener when I have Voice.
I play 1 Quarter/ 1 Gavony, maybe I should cut the Quarter for 1 Island? I just love having 1 Quarter in the main to try to steal games vs big mana decks game 1.
I was very sceptic about Lotus Cobra, until I tried him. It's really good. Not only does it allow you to combo out on T3 more often than with just T1 birds - T2 saheeli - T3 cat, more importantly it allows you to combo out on T3 without having to deploy Saheeli on T2. (T2 cobra means that you can play cat+saheeli on T3 or saheeli+evolution T3, both without the need of any other board presence) This means that opponents often don't see it coming and tap out on their T2. Also Saheeli is not exposed for opposing attackers.
Worship is very good against eldrazi decks, something we would otherwise struggle with, especially game 1 most opponents don't have a good way of dealing with it. I really like it a lot, but I haven't tested it enough to conclusively say how many is the optimal number. Maybe those two in the board should be dusk/dawns, or something else.
I suppose you have 4 extra sources for your planeswalkers, but needing two birds or a blood moon in play to cast a Kiki-jiki seems really really ambitious.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Angel of Sanctions
4 Felidar Guardian
4 Saheeli Rai
3 Oath of Nissa
3 Eldritch Evolution
2 Path to Exile
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Stony Silence
2 Worship
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Magus of the Moat
1 Linvala, keeper of Silence
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
-2/0 GW Coco
-1/2 GR Valukut
-2/0 Grixis Shadow
-2/1 BW Tokens
-2/0 Grixis Control
After testing so many different variants, and having success with pretty much all of them, I'm convinced this shell is just flat out good. I feel like i'm doing really dang good in testing no matter how I set up the deck. Granted i'm testing on Cockatrice, so there's a good chance i'm just matching up against inexperienced players, but it's still promising results, and convinces me this deck is worth playing right now.
The 5c list ran surprisingly well. The main drawback of the 5c list is obv the mana base. I basically left out all the bells and whistles of any tech lands, and just went straight for color. Yeah it's 5 colors, but it's really a GW deck with small splashes. With the mana base set up, and the 8 dorks, I never had any issues with casting my cards.
Siege Rhino unsurprisingly is a friggin house. He can stabilize a game basically on his own, or close the show within a few turns. Blinking with Cat feels great, but copying with Saheeli is just insane, and puts absurd pressure on the opponent. Casting it wasn't in issue when drawn, but easily the best Evo target to sac Voice into. Feels super powerful.
4 Finks is value city, and felt pretty good. Another good card to blink with Cat, and you can even reset it after persisting once. Between Voice, and Finks, it's really hard for opponents to deal with everything, and still be able to stop our combo.
Turns out Tireless Tracker is really good. Hard to see the cards power until you play with it, but you, AND your opponent will quickly realize this guy needs to be dealt with ASAP, or he will get out of control quick.
They both seem really good vs Death Shadow, and copying one with Saheeli is a lot of damage. With how popular DSJ is I feel one of them deserves a SB slot.
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