Ya I hear you. So you either cast a seismic assault turn three or cascade into in on turn four. If it sticks you can just ditch lands and keep the board clear until you draw the swan. Attack with the man lands you have while controlling the board was common practice too. Modern is not the old standard, but before BBE was banned several years ago I was doing very well with this deck, the only changes since then have been the bring to lights. It can play like a control deck that will always cascade into its creature kill card against creature decks or it can just combo off on turn four like splinter twin used to if you have the cards in your opening hand.
But to answere your question you can usual get through one counter spell or discard spell because the deck is so redundant. You countered my turn 3 SA, OK turn four play BBE and get a free S.A. to go with it. But if they are discard heavy or really counter spell heavy you will have a hard time. Faeries was in standard at the same time as this deck and that could be a hard match up.
Everyone here should realize this combo is powerful, fun and has had scattered success over the years but if you are really serious about competitiveness you should pick a different combo deck. Even the UR version that started this thread only put up one big win a year ago. I play this deck because it's my pet deck that i have played since it was in standard. I still have fun with it.
with the change on the cmc of slpit cards, most of them don't fall into BBE cascade so now we get to play removal to stay alive before comboing off with seismic+swans.
I couldn't test my self but wandered if any one could
I like this thought. I only spent a few minutes looking at this so far but Dead//gone and far//away are the stand out ones to me. There are definetly several cards like this to look at and re-evaluate.
I would love to hear how the testing goes with this. We are having the same needs but are picking different cards to fill them. I am really interested in what your ideas are and what you find. Not a lot of new ideas have been put into this deck in a long time.
On struggle//sirvive, primal command gains life instead of killing a creature, but it also shuffles the grave or searches for a swan. One emrakul also does great for shuffling the grave with no mana requirement.
I'm not sold on the leave//chance. It looks like win more to me. I run one dakmore salvage for security in going off, but very very rarely have I ever fizzled and needed it.
On your lands, I like the temple a lot. That is probably really good. And the raging ravine is probably better than the ghitu encampment I am using.
I did not like gemstone mine in my testing a long time ago. I ended up using them enough to sac them sometimes. I use 4 basics in that spot, one of each U/W/G/B. Jungle shrine and savage land might be good options too, or more temples maybe.
The deserts and stomping ground confuse me. Why did you pick some of these lands?
Also, blood moon is a real problem and I know that it is very popular right now. I just pray I don't see it game 1, and in game 2/3 I run a tiny bit of green SB removal for it. I am considering running Field of ruin to slow down the other deck and search for my basics at the same time.
Thanks for all that. I thought you ment gemstone mine, caverns is different. I didn't like the mine, cavern may be fine.
I tried the bounce lands, I highly discourse them. They come in tapped so you can't use them to cast anything that turn and if played early it usually puts you up to 8 cards in hand and you just have to discard anyway. It's also making you more susceptible to blood moon and ghost quarter.
I've played my version so long I'm reluctant to make big changes to the spells and take it out like that but I can test some of it here at home.
I am probably going to make some changes to my mana base. I think I really like the temples, and I may change some of my ghitu encampments to raging ravines. Also considering field of ruin. But I definitely don't want to take shock damage in the opening turns. Maybe I'm not thinking about it right since I've never had anything to do in the first two turns before, but the tri-lands fix more colors and save my life total.
I also really like the nahiri idea. It protects you from leyline and one pithing needle just being a blow out. (Just to be clear the leyline is good but not back breaking. You can use SA to kill there creatures while attacking with the swan or lands. If your swan is to be killed them do the combo till you draw the next swan and then just recast it and keep attacking with it. I also saw one list running laboratory maniac in the SB as a alt wincon against leyline.) But we need white for nahiri so blood moon is still killing us. Bottom line I think is if you aren't running a lot of fetches to get basics blood moon will just get us when it comes out. I want to protect my life total and not run fetches and shocks. I'm really looking at field of ruin to slow them down and find one of our basics and it doesn't mess with our cascade at all. Or we could even use evolving wilds if we thought we needed too, but I'm not that desperate yet.
I like field of ruin more and more as I think about it, but it's to slow to be perfect.
I really like the look of your build, it's not like any of the other ones I've seen. You have traded more consistency for more early board control. Other cards I've seen used for the early board control are a few main deck anger of the gods and molten vortex, in case you haven't considered those.
And as for not wanting to fetch lands, remember you can reshuffle your grave, so I agree in principle of what your saying because you need more lands to go off but in practice, in my build anyway, I don't think fetching would have a negative impact in the ability to combo.
The split card idea is exciting and I would love to hear how it is doing. I haven't got to build it and test it yet. And just to be sure I understand, the 2 never // return you were running are now replaced by primal command?
I could cut black out too, it's just for one card for me and it's not even that useful. That is a slot for nahiri, I guess that's the best card for me in that spot. I know captured sunlight is weak too, but it gains life and finds my SA for board control/ combo. But it will have to be the next card I cut after we find what is working best.
Man, removing black is easy. The first changes I am making, probably permenently, are removing my 2 savage lands, 2 frontier bivouac, 1 swamp, 1 bit blast. I'm putting in 4 field of ruin and 2 nahiri. This puts me to 39 lands, which is almost certainly still fine.
I am looking at the vivid lands I'm running as the next lands to cut for things like the temples.
Man, removing black is easy. The first changes I am making, probably permenently, are removing my 2 savage lands, 2 frontier bivouac, 1 swamp, 1 bit blast. I'm putting in 4 field of ruin and 2 nahiri. This puts me to 39 lands, which is almost certainly still fine.
I am looking at the vivid lands I'm running as the next lands to cut for things like the temples.
I have been lurking at this forum page and I'd love to see a new updated deck list. I have never played this deck before but it looks super fun
I am liking my 2 nahiri a lot. Considering adding more, but 2 seems to be working right now.
I'm liking field of ruin a lot too. I've only played test hands by myself with these new cards so far. I need to play with an opponent a few games to more accurately evaluate them.
With nahiri now we can't abandon white, but moving torward blue should be fine. Without nahiri we might be able to go RUG exclusively, but I don't think i want to do that. Blue makes bring to light easy to cast. I'm running 2 bring to light and 2 primmal commands. Both those find your swan, but BTL will find any card I want, except nahiri/ emrakul now, in my build. It even finds and casts primal command if I need to gain life or shuffle the grave. So I kind of am running 4 primal command too. It also allows for casting the swan that turn instead of requiring to wait a turn like with primal command. I'm about ready to remove my captured sunlights to add either 2 nahiri or BTL or a combo of those. Having the ability to search for the swan is very important.
I really like your thoughts on the lands. I've looked at the other man lands before but dismissed them. I was remembering standard and attacking with the lands, but modern is just to fast and diverse for that to really work well. Using the man lands for defense only is an idea I haven't explored and it would definitely require different lands from what I'm using.
As for the gifts ungiven, idk what to think about that, I'll spell out my initial reaction. The targets in my build imo should be BBE, bring to light, and swans, not sure on the 4th, nahiri maybe or a 1/2 of wrath may be fine. BBE finds SA, BTL can find and cast either swan or BBE which finds SA. So thay have to get rid of the BTL and then they have to decide which other peice you aren't going to get. This sounds cool, it also sounds like a almost complete rebuild to clear this many spots and not be dead when you could be casting the 1st combo peice on turn 5 after gifts on turn 4. It's doable I guess, but it sounds to risky or slow to me.
Or if you wanted to follow this line, build a control deck with chalice of the void, anger of the gods or other serious hate/control cards and just 2 Swans and 2 SA then use bring to light, primal command, gifts or something else to tutor these up for the combo finish. I guess you are following this line with split cards instead of the really hard control elements that would mess up the cascade. The gifts addition might be simpler than it looks with just 2 new 1 ofs and gifts, but it slows the deck down a turn at least and I'm not ready to do that. If you have a different opinion I would like to hear it.
Insult could kill your swan, it says damage can't be prevented. I'd be careful with that one.
A sweeper main is great. I played 3 main supreme verdict for a while, I have built other versions of this deck not using cascade, based off the winning list that started this thread and the old standard R/U control version. I was running 3 main deck anger of the gods and that was fantastic and I just sided it out when it wasn't useful. With cascade you might have to use wrath of god or chain reaction. The old standard list ran 3 sets of burn, 3 sets of counter spells, the 8 combo pieces and 28 lands. It tried to control everything and mostly it did, but the combo didn't work as well with only 28 lands.
Nahiri is really good, it draws cards, protects you and wins the game. It even synergizes with the emrakul I was already running. Really happy with this one so far. Killing the blood moon is going to be sweet. I think I can still run 4/5 colors, I need to search up a plains first with... wait.... do I need other color basics any more? Should they all just be plains for nahiri to destroy the blood moon?
Ya, I'm going to try replacing my 2 captured sunlight with 2 more nahiri, that puts me up to 4. I think I'm going to leave the basic island and forest in and replace 2 of my vivid lands with more plains. I'll see how this does for a while before I make many more big changes.
How about SB? I am definitely using 4 leyline of sanctity for all the discard and burn style decks, probably 4 supreme verdict for creature swarms or dealing with real big creaures. I'm considering anger of the gods in that spot due to dredge and it still kills creature swarm decks, but not the big tasigurs, hollow ones or death's shadows of the world and it messes with my cadcading. I'm reevaluating the other slots.
I have used granulate in the past for artifacts, and I should probably have some kind of graveyard control like leyline of the void or something. Some of my old sideboard choices are way dated.
EDIT: so I've spent a few hours working on my SB and this is what I came up with. I'm sure this isn't optimized yet, what do you guys think?
4 nahiri, 4 supreme verdict, 4 leyline of the void, 1 laboratory maniac, 2 captured sunlight.
I moved all 4 nahiri to the side board and put all 4 leyline of sanctity main board. Because I expect game one to see more discard or burn than bloodmoon, I can swap them in game 2 to protect myself from the moon if I expect it or if leyline is just not that good. I'll see how that goes.
4 Leyline of the void is obviously general grave yard control but I think it will beat lantern too. Emrakul will shuffle my grave yard while this leyline will exile there stuff before they can recur it with academy ruins.
1 laboratory maniac. I dont expect to use it, but it is another alt wincon when facing a leyline of sactity.
2 captured sun light are there for the aggro/burn match ups too because it gains some life and gets SA out to kill small creatures. I may not use it much either.
4 verdicts are general creature control.
I played my build at a small event today. It went 1-2. I lost to naya zoo and eldrazi tron but I beat jund. I don't think i played enough to come to any new conclusions.
The games I lost were very close. Game 3 against zoo I had 2 city of brass and did a lot of damage to myself. Against tron I had the combo but it ran out of lands and fizzled one game and the other game I was set to go off the next turn but ulamog destroyed my SA and land.
Edit: I credit the leyline of sanctity largely for the win against jund.
The games were close enough that I'm not put off by the losing record yet, need more games for effective evaluation.
With the field of ruin my mana base was way different from what I had experienced before. One game gainst tron my mana was plains, forest, island, ghitu encampment. That was after several field of ruin and ghost quarters. Not sure if any changes are needed yet, but my mana never looked like that before. I think I had a series of unusual under performing games and am looking forward to playing it more.
Also is there a better sweeper than supreme verdict? Hallowed burial comes to mind but it costs 5. Mainly looking for exile effects or something. I could have beaten the eldrazi tron the game I fizzled if I had been able to kill the ulamog he had but my verdict couldn't kill it since it is indestructible.
Edit edit: nahiri exiles tapped creatures like ulamog, I had that game and didn't realize I had the answer in my hand.
I've been working on this version of Cascade Swans, which I assimilated from the comments and testing of previous comments.
From my testing so far, Treetop Village and Raging Ravine have been indispensable utility lands. They give the deck something to do while it's durdling around. Leyline of Sanctity is great, but it's an either/or with the other utility spells. I was running 37 lands, 2-ofs Bring to Light, Primal Command, and Captured Sunlight, and with the Leylines I was fizzling every time I had the combo set up. While having Emmy to discard and shuffle all the lands back in is great, I'd rather not fizzle and not need to discard to hand size. Some four-ofs got downshifted to make room for the extra Captured Sunlight and Primal Command, which I think are still relevant but just don't fit main deck game 1.
I'm also leaning more towards trying to maintain the 42-land count, I pinched up to 40 so we'll see how consistent the extra 3 lands makes the deck, but I definitely think there's a minimum land-threat density and 37 isn't enough.
Overall, I've been impressed by the not-all-in aspect of the deck. Raging Ravine and BBE beats are a big deal (especially an unanswered Ravine). I also haven't run into too many decks that punish me for taking longer to get set up, so bear that in mind. But on that note, Leyline is pretty good for helping get through those rough early turns until the deck can get set up.
Ya I really should replace my ghitu encampments with raging ravines.
Also the 40 lands I was using would combo off, but it is way less consistent now. I'm not sure if the field of ruin searching lands out of my deck or just having a couple fewer lands made the difference. Maybe it's the combination. Also refining the SB could open up these spots for our lands. I know mine needs some work. What does your SB look like?
I'm glad your liking your build. Hope to see you on here more.
I have been building and testing a different version of UR Seismic Swans. It took me to a 3-1 finish last night at my LGS against tier 1/2 decks(Storm 2-0, Lantern Control 2-1, UW Control 2-0, UBw Faeries 0-2, kept a hand full of discard both game 1 and game 2).
I've been brewing on this since I first saw the 42 land build and this is how I play it now. Amonkhet was an amazing set for helping out the deck's "draw a bunch of lands because this deck is actually terrible" draws since it gave us lots of on-color lands that do stuff.
Graveyard Hate that is tutor able and can be converted to damage via Ramunap Ruins? Yes please.
Ramunap Ruins
Flood insurance that can close the came, feed Countryside Crusher, and doesn't disrupt Treasure Hunt.
Desert of the Fervent/Desert of the Mindful
Card Filtering that does not disrupt Treasure Hunt that pitches to seismic, vortex, ramunap
Hostile Desert
Cheap 3/4 man land that leverages the lands-in-graveyard resource that this deck makes is great. It provides a decent clock, can stop aggro dead in its tracks, and lowers the total amount of life that we might need to seismic our opponent for
Day's Undoing
This card single handedly let me beat Storm 2-0 on turn 4. Turn 3, resolve a seismic, turn 4, untap, dump my hand of 4 lands, resolve Day's Undoing, draw 6 lands and kill them in their upkeep. This might be strong enough to go up to 4 Main deck and cut down to 40 lands, but I've not tested that. It's a good out to land-flood and is itself a combo piece with Seismic Assault.
Countryside Crusher
This gets us to the next gas card in our deck. It also synergizes with Molten Vortex, Seismic Assault, Tolaria West, Cycle Deserts and Ramunap Ruins. Being able to compete on the ground is integral to the deck and can sometimes just steal wins against removal-light game 1's by the opponent, either by eating removal that would hit swans, or by growing out of range for them to deal with. This is frequently the first card I sideboard out, but if it gets to trigger 1 upkeep, the invest has paid off.
Sideboard: Anti-Aggro
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Molten Vortex
I really like how your lands synergize. I have not considered the desert package before. The way you explained days undoing makes it look better too. Country side crushers used to see play in another land heavy deck (aggro loam) several years ago and it was a power house. I also really like being able to tutor for which ever land you need with tolaria West.
Your deck appears to play somewhat differently from mine, and it has a good winning record, so I'm reluctant to make too many suggestions. I am weary of swiftwater cliffs and wandering fumarole though. 1 more tolaria West maybe, and I would run 1 dakmore salvage but with the way you describe how your build plays out you may not need it. But if those are doing well for you then keep doing it.
I'm really glad to hear your deck performed well. I found this deck today among the 5-0 lists. I believe there is a real good swans deck out there to be discovered. With all these fresh ideas maybe we'll find it.
9 May 2018
YOZO, 5-0
Creatures (7)
2 Bedlam Reveler
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
Spells (22)
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Serum Visions
1 Sweltering Suns
4 Anticipate
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pull from Tomorrow
4 Remand
Enchantments(4)
4 Seismic Assault
Land (27)
4 Cascade Bluffs
3 Dakmor Salvage
5 Island
2 Mountain
3 Spirebluff Canal
4 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Temple of Epiphany
Sideboard (15)
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Abrade
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
I really like how your lands synergize. I have not considered the desert package before. The way you explained days undoing makes it look better too. Country side crushers used to see play in another land heavy deck (aggro loam) several years ago and it was a power house. I also really like being able to tutor for which ever land you need with tolaria West.
Your deck appears to play somewhat differently from mine, and it has a good winning record, so I'm reluctant to make too many suggestions. I am weary of swiftwater cliffs and wandering fumarole though. 1 more tolaria West maybe, and I would run 1 dakmore salvage but with the way you describe how your build plays out you may not need it. But if those are doing well for you then keep doing it.
I'm really glad to hear your deck performed well. I found this deck today among the 5-0 lists. I believe there is a real good swans deck out there to be discovered. With all these fresh ideas maybe we'll find it.
9 May 2018
YOZO, 5-0
Creatures (7)
2 Bedlam Reveler
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
Spells (22)
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Serum Visions
1 Sweltering Suns
4 Anticipate
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pull from Tomorrow
4 Remand
Enchantments(4)
4 Seismic Assault
Land (27)
4 Cascade Bluffs
3 Dakmor Salvage
5 Island
2 Mountain
3 Spirebluff Canal
4 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Temple of Epiphany
Sideboard (15)
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Abrade
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
I can see how ours play differently. The deserts were a "whim" try since they are all so cheap. I had a spare 5 dollars and bought all the pieces for that package and it is night and day different. Land cycling is usually bad with this type of deck since it's swapping a land in hand for a land in the yard which limits your ability to combo off without reshuffle effects. That's where Day's Undoing makes them playing. IMO, you shouldn't play the deserts package without Day's Undoing, since you'll frequently find yourself hosed b/c cycling will frequently reduce the number of lands in deck that you would use for lethal. I really cannot speak highly enough of Day's Undoing in this type of shell. As I said in my first post, it started as a "fun-of" but resolving it usually meant that I was 1 or 2 turns away from winning. Bumping to 2 has increased my win rate. I am going to test it as a 3-of here soon to see if I get the same ROI on win rates that I did by adding the second, but I think it'll stay as a 3-of. The ability for us to disrupt hand sculpting, redraw out of land flood, or draw 7 and combo kill in their upkeep is really a huge draw for the card. Day's Undoing has no place in non-treasure hunt builds of Swans though, since you can't count on being able to kill your opponent during their upkeep after resolving it.
That List is a variant of a Seismic Swans list that Saffron Olive played a while ago. I've seen that type of list, wanting to go for a more control route that lets you trade bolts for ancestral recalls and it is probably way more resilient than what I'm doing, but that's not why I play seismic swans.
I had considered and then decided against dakmor salvage for this build. It doesn't really help me and I can't "go infinite" with the dredge effect and an eldrazi titan. My build is very much attempting to combo out turn 4, or pivoting into a land-control route. Being able to "ensure" a land draw in a deck with 42 lands doesn't really provide any additional utility, especially since there are 8 cycle lands that help you find your pieces. The Hostile Deserts have their games where they overperform and othertimes, I get flooded on them and can't cast spells, which is frustrating. I've considered adding Painted Bluffs to help that out, but I'm not sure if that's going too deep to make bad cards semi-playable.
Swiftwater Cliffs is so good in this. The additional 2-3 life you can gain off them over the course of the game has been relevant more than I care to count. I've beat burn decks at 4 life where they died with Lava Spike/Bolt in hand. And since you're not doing anything turn 1 or turn 2 (usually), the downside of ETB tapped is negligible at best. There are times where the ETB tapped has come back to bite me, but the games where the life gain gave me that extra buffer to combo out I feel negate the drawback. It's a neutral impact on game win percentage, IMO. The salt from playing Swiftwater Cliffs against someone's 10 Fetch-8 Shock manabase is also good. Wandering Fumarole is my hedge against Ensnaring Bridge decks and a late game mana sink, so its place as a 2-of is good for me. The other on-color manlands, Faerie Conclave and Ghitu Encampment, are just too weak, IMO. An argument could be made for conclave because of the evasion, but Swans already has that kind of evasion.
I think the bigger considering for getting the GW % up would be cutting down 2 hostile deserts, since the colorless mana has been a bigger hinderance to playability than anything else.
I think Tolaria West as a 2-of could be a good fit, but I don't find myself trasmuting tolaria very frequently when I have it, so I don't know how good the second copy would be. Perhaps if I include a pact of negation in the SB, I could see it's utility increase, but until I try that I out, I'll be sticking at 1.
I think my build of desert swans is like 80% of optimal. Maybe Gemstone Caverns as a 2-of in place of 2 Hostile Deserts would be the better option, or maybe Desert as repeatable land-based removal would be the optimal list. More testing is needed for these considerations.
That was a fun read, thanks for all the details. I'm very inexperienced with these lands because they are so infrequently used. I'm going to have to try this out to establish my opinion on this land package. I'll try this over the next few days. I'm really glad it's performing so well for you.
So I drew 15-20 hands and played them out by myself before I took this to my lgs where I played 4 additional games against a person with different kinds of decks. Clearly I should have more games to understand all the nuances, but at least I can say I got some experience with these new lands.
I want to start with I really liked ramunap ruins, it comes in untapped and gave a bit of reach if you needed to do 2-4 more damage at the end. Country side crushers did get real big. Days undoing does seem to just win the game. Swiftwater cliffs seems fine in a two color build of this combo, it didn't slow me down at all and the life gain was nice. The life gain didn't matter in the games I played but over time I'm sure there would be games where it did matter. The cycling lands were nice when there was nothing else to do with your mana, but I wasn't impressed enough to be sure 8 is the right number.
After playing this a while, maybe I just didn't find myself in the right situations, but there were cards I didn't use much. I almost never used scavenger grounds, wandering furmrole, and hostile desert. I blocked with hostile desert once, never used the others. After many games I changed those out for 4 halimar depths, 2 more tolaria west, 1 dakmore salvage and 1 bojoka bog. I've decided now to keep trying the hostile desert and I put 2 back in. There was also one game where if the days undoing had been an eldrazi I would have been able to continue the combo, but I was stuck with only 8 lands as it was. Days undoing won MUCH more than it lost though. I also had problems with the country side crushers a few times. It got real big and they had to answere it, but you draw no more lands while it's alive. For me it was like I was using the crusher OR the seismic assault combo.
Overall I think this really comes down to perfered playstyle. A lot of my games felt just like other versions of swans decks, just play lands, play SA, play swans, WIN! Anger of the gods MB would have been really helpful when I faced goblins, but would have been almost useless when I was playing grixis control. I think I like the eldrazi better than days undoing, but maybe one of each would work? I think in a 2 color 35-42 land build several of your new lands are probably the right choices, namely swiftwater cliffs(I know it's been used by a few people before, but I haven't given it enough credit) and some number of cycling lands, ramunap ruins, 1-2 tolaria west. I would use dakmore salvage, halimar depths anger of the gods and an eldrazi to fit my playstyle, but the combo clearly functions with a wide variety of support cards.
Edit: Here is what I'm going to be trying now. I'm a bit torn on the tolaria West, hostile desert, and sulfer falls but this is what I'm going to try for a while.
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 Seismic Assault
2 Molten Vortex
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Day's Undoing
4 Treasure Hunt
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Shivan Reef
4 Swiftwater Cliffs
4 Cascade Bluffs
4 Island
2 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
2 Hostile Desert
4 Desert of the Fervent
3 Desert of the Mindful
4 Halimar Depths
1 Dakmore Salvage
1 Desolate Lighthouse
I took the below pile to FNM last Friday, and went 1-3. It was doing really well in XMage testing (6-1), but didn't do so well in real life. Just couldn't draw the right half of my deck at the right time.
Highlights include multiple mulls to 5, a game with three swans on board that I punted by blocking a non-lethal attack, and Bogles with 4 mainboard Leyline of Sanctity.
Thoughts:
As cute as Drake Haven seems, it shouldn't be in the deck - I side it out just about every game for something else, and I'd probably be better served with Countryside Crusher. Which, in turn, suggests a Desert package might be sensible (6 cycle deserts to replace the cycling duals, 4 Ramunap Ruins, 2-3 Hostile Desert). I'm not happy running as many non-UR lands or as many non-dual taplands as PyroDelver, since RRR turn 3 into UU turn 4 is kinda hard on a mulligan to 6 (or fewer), even with the stupid number of lands this deck runs. I also like the two Day's Undoing plan.
From my second catastrophic loss vs. Bogles - Sphinx's Tutelage targets. Leyline of Sanctity exists (and sucks). Gonna replace it with a Glaring Spotlight (so that T3/4 Seismic, T5 Swan, dig for Spotlight works as a play).
Considering that we run so many lands, and we only really need 9 Islands to make Blood Moon work (makes some assumptions, but is basically accurate); I'm going to test 2-3 in the side.
Hurkyl's Recall is also a thing I need to look into buying.
I feel like there's some way to make it work but going on old lists I'm a bit baffled how they ever managed to win anything
But to answere your question you can usual get through one counter spell or discard spell because the deck is so redundant. You countered my turn 3 SA, OK turn four play BBE and get a free S.A. to go with it. But if they are discard heavy or really counter spell heavy you will have a hard time. Faeries was in standard at the same time as this deck and that could be a hard match up.
Everyone here should realize this combo is powerful, fun and has had scattered success over the years but if you are really serious about competitiveness you should pick a different combo deck. Even the UR version that started this thread only put up one big win a year ago. I play this deck because it's my pet deck that i have played since it was in standard. I still have fun with it.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://mtgconflux.com/2017/10/04/ur-swans-pptq-report/&ved=2ahUKEwiY-9LXzdXZAhVSXK0KHYpTCEo4ChAWMAR6BAgCEAE&usg=AOvVaw1dJAJyx3Hmbas4LBEcKRyE
I like this thought. I only spent a few minutes looking at this so far but Dead//gone and far//away are the stand out ones to me. There are definetly several cards like this to look at and re-evaluate.
On struggle//sirvive, primal command gains life instead of killing a creature, but it also shuffles the grave or searches for a swan. One emrakul also does great for shuffling the grave with no mana requirement.
I'm not sold on the leave//chance. It looks like win more to me. I run one dakmore salvage for security in going off, but very very rarely have I ever fizzled and needed it.
On your lands, I like the temple a lot. That is probably really good. And the raging ravine is probably better than the ghitu encampment I am using.
I did not like gemstone mine in my testing a long time ago. I ended up using them enough to sac them sometimes. I use 4 basics in that spot, one of each U/W/G/B. Jungle shrine and savage land might be good options too, or more temples maybe.
The deserts and stomping ground confuse me. Why did you pick some of these lands?
Also, blood moon is a real problem and I know that it is very popular right now. I just pray I don't see it game 1, and in game 2/3 I run a tiny bit of green SB removal for it. I am considering running Field of ruin to slow down the other deck and search for my basics at the same time.
I tried the bounce lands, I highly discourse them. They come in tapped so you can't use them to cast anything that turn and if played early it usually puts you up to 8 cards in hand and you just have to discard anyway. It's also making you more susceptible to blood moon and ghost quarter.
I've played my version so long I'm reluctant to make big changes to the spells and take it out like that but I can test some of it here at home.
I am probably going to make some changes to my mana base. I think I really like the temples, and I may change some of my ghitu encampments to raging ravines. Also considering field of ruin. But I definitely don't want to take shock damage in the opening turns. Maybe I'm not thinking about it right since I've never had anything to do in the first two turns before, but the tri-lands fix more colors and save my life total.
I also really like the nahiri idea. It protects you from leyline and one pithing needle just being a blow out. (Just to be clear the leyline is good but not back breaking. You can use SA to kill there creatures while attacking with the swan or lands. If your swan is to be killed them do the combo till you draw the next swan and then just recast it and keep attacking with it. I also saw one list running laboratory maniac in the SB as a alt wincon against leyline.) But we need white for nahiri so blood moon is still killing us. Bottom line I think is if you aren't running a lot of fetches to get basics blood moon will just get us when it comes out. I want to protect my life total and not run fetches and shocks. I'm really looking at field of ruin to slow them down and find one of our basics and it doesn't mess with our cascade at all. Or we could even use evolving wilds if we thought we needed too, but I'm not that desperate yet.
I really like the look of your build, it's not like any of the other ones I've seen. You have traded more consistency for more early board control. Other cards I've seen used for the early board control are a few main deck anger of the gods and molten vortex, in case you haven't considered those.
And as for not wanting to fetch lands, remember you can reshuffle your grave, so I agree in principle of what your saying because you need more lands to go off but in practice, in my build anyway, I don't think fetching would have a negative impact in the ability to combo.
The split card idea is exciting and I would love to hear how it is doing. I haven't got to build it and test it yet. And just to be sure I understand, the 2 never // return you were running are now replaced by primal command?
I could cut black out too, it's just for one card for me and it's not even that useful. That is a slot for nahiri, I guess that's the best card for me in that spot. I know captured sunlight is weak too, but it gains life and finds my SA for board control/ combo. But it will have to be the next card I cut after we find what is working best.
I am looking at the vivid lands I'm running as the next lands to cut for things like the temples.
I have been lurking at this forum page and I'd love to see a new updated deck list. I have never played this deck before but it looks super fun
My list is in block #13 with the changes from block #43.
Xaviman is trying his list from block #37. I think he has made or is making some changes in block #41.
Other lists that won tournaments can be found in blocks #1, #26 and #34 but those were all before the BBE unban.
I am liking my 2 nahiri a lot. Considering adding more, but 2 seems to be working right now.
I'm liking field of ruin a lot too. I've only played test hands by myself with these new cards so far. I need to play with an opponent a few games to more accurately evaluate them.
With nahiri now we can't abandon white, but moving torward blue should be fine. Without nahiri we might be able to go RUG exclusively, but I don't think i want to do that. Blue makes bring to light easy to cast. I'm running 2 bring to light and 2 primmal commands. Both those find your swan, but BTL will find any card I want, except nahiri/ emrakul now, in my build. It even finds and casts primal command if I need to gain life or shuffle the grave. So I kind of am running 4 primal command too. It also allows for casting the swan that turn instead of requiring to wait a turn like with primal command. I'm about ready to remove my captured sunlights to add either 2 nahiri or BTL or a combo of those. Having the ability to search for the swan is very important.
I really like your thoughts on the lands. I've looked at the other man lands before but dismissed them. I was remembering standard and attacking with the lands, but modern is just to fast and diverse for that to really work well. Using the man lands for defense only is an idea I haven't explored and it would definitely require different lands from what I'm using.
Or if you wanted to follow this line, build a control deck with chalice of the void, anger of the gods or other serious hate/control cards and just 2 Swans and 2 SA then use bring to light, primal command, gifts or something else to tutor these up for the combo finish. I guess you are following this line with split cards instead of the really hard control elements that would mess up the cascade. The gifts addition might be simpler than it looks with just 2 new 1 ofs and gifts, but it slows the deck down a turn at least and I'm not ready to do that. If you have a different opinion I would like to hear it.
A sweeper main is great. I played 3 main supreme verdict for a while, I have built other versions of this deck not using cascade, based off the winning list that started this thread and the old standard R/U control version. I was running 3 main deck anger of the gods and that was fantastic and I just sided it out when it wasn't useful. With cascade you might have to use wrath of god or chain reaction. The old standard list ran 3 sets of burn, 3 sets of counter spells, the 8 combo pieces and 28 lands. It tried to control everything and mostly it did, but the combo didn't work as well with only 28 lands.
Nahiri is really good, it draws cards, protects you and wins the game. It even synergizes with the emrakul I was already running. Really happy with this one so far. Killing the blood moon is going to be sweet. I think I can still run 4/5 colors, I need to search up a plains first with... wait.... do I need other color basics any more? Should they all just be plains for nahiri to destroy the blood moon?
I have used granulate in the past for artifacts, and I should probably have some kind of graveyard control like leyline of the void or something. Some of my old sideboard choices are way dated.
EDIT: so I've spent a few hours working on my SB and this is what I came up with. I'm sure this isn't optimized yet, what do you guys think?
4 nahiri, 4 supreme verdict, 4 leyline of the void, 1 laboratory maniac, 2 captured sunlight.
I moved all 4 nahiri to the side board and put all 4 leyline of sanctity main board. Because I expect game one to see more discard or burn than bloodmoon, I can swap them in game 2 to protect myself from the moon if I expect it or if leyline is just not that good. I'll see how that goes.
4 Leyline of the void is obviously general grave yard control but I think it will beat lantern too. Emrakul will shuffle my grave yard while this leyline will exile there stuff before they can recur it with academy ruins.
1 laboratory maniac. I dont expect to use it, but it is another alt wincon when facing a leyline of sactity.
2 captured sun light are there for the aggro/burn match ups too because it gains some life and gets SA out to kill small creatures. I may not use it much either.
4 verdicts are general creature control.
The games I lost were very close. Game 3 against zoo I had 2 city of brass and did a lot of damage to myself. Against tron I had the combo but it ran out of lands and fizzled one game and the other game I was set to go off the next turn but ulamog destroyed my SA and land.
Edit: I credit the leyline of sanctity largely for the win against jund.
The games were close enough that I'm not put off by the losing record yet, need more games for effective evaluation.
With the field of ruin my mana base was way different from what I had experienced before. One game gainst tron my mana was plains, forest, island, ghitu encampment. That was after several field of ruin and ghost quarters. Not sure if any changes are needed yet, but my mana never looked like that before. I think I had a series of unusual under performing games and am looking forward to playing it more.
Also is there a better sweeper than supreme verdict? Hallowed burial comes to mind but it costs 5. Mainly looking for exile effects or something. I could have beaten the eldrazi tron the game I fizzled if I had been able to kill the ulamog he had but my verdict couldn't kill it since it is indestructible.
Edit edit: nahiri exiles tapped creatures like ulamog, I had that game and didn't realize I had the answer in my hand.
I've been working on this version of Cascade Swans, which I assimilated from the comments and testing of previous comments.
From my testing so far, Treetop Village and Raging Ravine have been indispensable utility lands. They give the deck something to do while it's durdling around. Leyline of Sanctity is great, but it's an either/or with the other utility spells. I was running 37 lands, 2-ofs Bring to Light, Primal Command, and Captured Sunlight, and with the Leylines I was fizzling every time I had the combo set up. While having Emmy to discard and shuffle all the lands back in is great, I'd rather not fizzle and not need to discard to hand size. Some four-ofs got downshifted to make room for the extra Captured Sunlight and Primal Command, which I think are still relevant but just don't fit main deck game 1.
I'm also leaning more towards trying to maintain the 42-land count, I pinched up to 40 so we'll see how consistent the extra 3 lands makes the deck, but I definitely think there's a minimum land-threat density and 37 isn't enough.
Overall, I've been impressed by the not-all-in aspect of the deck. Raging Ravine and BBE beats are a big deal (especially an unanswered Ravine). I also haven't run into too many decks that punish me for taking longer to get set up, so bear that in mind. But on that note, Leyline is pretty good for helping get through those rough early turns until the deck can get set up.
Also the 40 lands I was using would combo off, but it is way less consistent now. I'm not sure if the field of ruin searching lands out of my deck or just having a couple fewer lands made the difference. Maybe it's the combination. Also refining the SB could open up these spots for our lands. I know mine needs some work. What does your SB look like?
I'm glad your liking your build. Hope to see you on here more.
I've been brewing on this since I first saw the 42 land build and this is how I play it now. Amonkhet was an amazing set for helping out the deck's "draw a bunch of lands because this deck is actually terrible" draws since it gave us lots of on-color lands that do stuff.
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 Seismic Assault
2 Molten Vortex
2 Day's Undoing
4 Treasure Hunt
2 Countryside Crusher
UR-Lands
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Shivan Reef
4 Swiftwater Cliffs
2 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Island
2 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
4 Hostile Desert
2 Wandering Fumarole
Utility Lands
4 Desert of the Fervent
4 Desert of the Mindful
1 Tolaria West
2 Scavenger Grounds
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Molten Vortex
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Day's Undoing
1 Shatterstorm
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Damping Sphere
1 Dispel
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sphinx's Tutelage
1 Spell Pierce
Why I believe this build succeeded
Deserts
Day's Undoing
This card single handedly let me beat Storm 2-0 on turn 4. Turn 3, resolve a seismic, turn 4, untap, dump my hand of 4 lands, resolve Day's Undoing, draw 6 lands and kill them in their upkeep. This might be strong enough to go up to 4 Main deck and cut down to 40 lands, but I've not tested that. It's a good out to land-flood and is itself a combo piece with Seismic Assault.
Countryside Crusher
This gets us to the next gas card in our deck. It also synergizes with Molten Vortex, Seismic Assault, Tolaria West, Cycle Deserts and Ramunap Ruins. Being able to compete on the ground is integral to the deck and can sometimes just steal wins against removal-light game 1's by the opponent, either by eating removal that would hit swans, or by growing out of range for them to deal with. This is frequently the first card I sideboard out, but if it gets to trigger 1 upkeep, the invest has paid off.
Sideboard:
Anti-Aggro
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Molten Vortex
Anti-Combo
1 Day's Undoing
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Spell Pierce
Anti-Control
1 Dispel
1 Sphinx's Tutelage
1 Tormod's Crypt
Multi-Archetype Hosers
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Shatterstorm
2 Damping Sphere
Let me know what you guys think and if I have missed any integral components, let me know how much of a punt it was!
Your deck appears to play somewhat differently from mine, and it has a good winning record, so I'm reluctant to make too many suggestions. I am weary of swiftwater cliffs and wandering fumarole though. 1 more tolaria West maybe, and I would run 1 dakmore salvage but with the way you describe how your build plays out you may not need it. But if those are doing well for you then keep doing it.
I'm really glad to hear your deck performed well. I found this deck today among the 5-0 lists. I believe there is a real good swans deck out there to be discovered. With all these fresh ideas maybe we'll find it.
9 May 2018
YOZO, 5-0
Creatures (7)
2 Bedlam Reveler
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
Spells (22)
1 Anger of the Gods
4 Serum Visions
1 Sweltering Suns
4 Anticipate
2 Izzet Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Pull from Tomorrow
4 Remand
Enchantments(4)
4 Seismic Assault
Land (27)
4 Cascade Bluffs
3 Dakmor Salvage
5 Island
2 Mountain
3 Spirebluff Canal
4 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Temple of Epiphany
Sideboard (15)
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Abrade
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
1 Keranos, God of Storms
3 Negate
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
I can see how ours play differently. The deserts were a "whim" try since they are all so cheap. I had a spare 5 dollars and bought all the pieces for that package and it is night and day different. Land cycling is usually bad with this type of deck since it's swapping a land in hand for a land in the yard which limits your ability to combo off without reshuffle effects. That's where Day's Undoing makes them playing. IMO, you shouldn't play the deserts package without Day's Undoing, since you'll frequently find yourself hosed b/c cycling will frequently reduce the number of lands in deck that you would use for lethal. I really cannot speak highly enough of Day's Undoing in this type of shell. As I said in my first post, it started as a "fun-of" but resolving it usually meant that I was 1 or 2 turns away from winning. Bumping to 2 has increased my win rate. I am going to test it as a 3-of here soon to see if I get the same ROI on win rates that I did by adding the second, but I think it'll stay as a 3-of. The ability for us to disrupt hand sculpting, redraw out of land flood, or draw 7 and combo kill in their upkeep is really a huge draw for the card. Day's Undoing has no place in non-treasure hunt builds of Swans though, since you can't count on being able to kill your opponent during their upkeep after resolving it.
That List is a variant of a Seismic Swans list that Saffron Olive played a while ago. I've seen that type of list, wanting to go for a more control route that lets you trade bolts for ancestral recalls and it is probably way more resilient than what I'm doing, but that's not why I play seismic swans.
I had considered and then decided against dakmor salvage for this build. It doesn't really help me and I can't "go infinite" with the dredge effect and an eldrazi titan. My build is very much attempting to combo out turn 4, or pivoting into a land-control route. Being able to "ensure" a land draw in a deck with 42 lands doesn't really provide any additional utility, especially since there are 8 cycle lands that help you find your pieces. The Hostile Deserts have their games where they overperform and othertimes, I get flooded on them and can't cast spells, which is frustrating. I've considered adding Painted Bluffs to help that out, but I'm not sure if that's going too deep to make bad cards semi-playable.
Swiftwater Cliffs is so good in this. The additional 2-3 life you can gain off them over the course of the game has been relevant more than I care to count. I've beat burn decks at 4 life where they died with Lava Spike/Bolt in hand. And since you're not doing anything turn 1 or turn 2 (usually), the downside of ETB tapped is negligible at best. There are times where the ETB tapped has come back to bite me, but the games where the life gain gave me that extra buffer to combo out I feel negate the drawback. It's a neutral impact on game win percentage, IMO. The salt from playing Swiftwater Cliffs against someone's 10 Fetch-8 Shock manabase is also good. Wandering Fumarole is my hedge against Ensnaring Bridge decks and a late game mana sink, so its place as a 2-of is good for me. The other on-color manlands, Faerie Conclave and Ghitu Encampment, are just too weak, IMO. An argument could be made for conclave because of the evasion, but Swans already has that kind of evasion.
I think the bigger considering for getting the GW % up would be cutting down 2 hostile deserts, since the colorless mana has been a bigger hinderance to playability than anything else.
I think Tolaria West as a 2-of could be a good fit, but I don't find myself trasmuting tolaria very frequently when I have it, so I don't know how good the second copy would be. Perhaps if I include a pact of negation in the SB, I could see it's utility increase, but until I try that I out, I'll be sticking at 1.
I think my build of desert swans is like 80% of optimal. Maybe Gemstone Caverns as a 2-of in place of 2 Hostile Deserts would be the better option, or maybe Desert as repeatable land-based removal would be the optimal list. More testing is needed for these considerations.
I want to start with I really liked ramunap ruins, it comes in untapped and gave a bit of reach if you needed to do 2-4 more damage at the end. Country side crushers did get real big. Days undoing does seem to just win the game. Swiftwater cliffs seems fine in a two color build of this combo, it didn't slow me down at all and the life gain was nice. The life gain didn't matter in the games I played but over time I'm sure there would be games where it did matter. The cycling lands were nice when there was nothing else to do with your mana, but I wasn't impressed enough to be sure 8 is the right number.
After playing this a while, maybe I just didn't find myself in the right situations, but there were cards I didn't use much. I almost never used scavenger grounds, wandering furmrole, and hostile desert. I blocked with hostile desert once, never used the others. After many games I changed those out for 4 halimar depths, 2 more tolaria west, 1 dakmore salvage and 1 bojoka bog. I've decided now to keep trying the hostile desert and I put 2 back in. There was also one game where if the days undoing had been an eldrazi I would have been able to continue the combo, but I was stuck with only 8 lands as it was. Days undoing won MUCH more than it lost though. I also had problems with the country side crushers a few times. It got real big and they had to answere it, but you draw no more lands while it's alive. For me it was like I was using the crusher OR the seismic assault combo.
Overall I think this really comes down to perfered playstyle. A lot of my games felt just like other versions of swans decks, just play lands, play SA, play swans, WIN! Anger of the gods MB would have been really helpful when I faced goblins, but would have been almost useless when I was playing grixis control. I think I like the eldrazi better than days undoing, but maybe one of each would work? I think in a 2 color 35-42 land build several of your new lands are probably the right choices, namely swiftwater cliffs(I know it's been used by a few people before, but I haven't given it enough credit) and some number of cycling lands, ramunap ruins, 1-2 tolaria west. I would use dakmore salvage, halimar depths anger of the gods and an eldrazi to fit my playstyle, but the combo clearly functions with a wide variety of support cards.
Edit: Here is what I'm going to be trying now. I'm a bit torn on the tolaria West, hostile desert, and sulfer falls but this is what I'm going to try for a while.
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 Seismic Assault
2 Molten Vortex
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Day's Undoing
4 Treasure Hunt
3 Anger of the Gods
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Shivan Reef
4 Swiftwater Cliffs
4 Cascade Bluffs
4 Island
2 Mountain
4 Ramunap Ruins
2 Hostile Desert
4 Desert of the Fervent
3 Desert of the Mindful
4 Halimar Depths
1 Dakmore Salvage
1 Desolate Lighthouse
Highlights include multiple mulls to 5, a game with three swans on board that I punted by blocking a non-lethal attack, and Bogles with 4 mainboard Leyline of Sanctity.
Thoughts:
As cute as Drake Haven seems, it shouldn't be in the deck - I side it out just about every game for something else, and I'd probably be better served with Countryside Crusher. Which, in turn, suggests a Desert package might be sensible (6 cycle deserts to replace the cycling duals, 4 Ramunap Ruins, 2-3 Hostile Desert). I'm not happy running as many non-UR lands or as many non-dual taplands as PyroDelver, since RRR turn 3 into UU turn 4 is kinda hard on a mulligan to 6 (or fewer), even with the stupid number of lands this deck runs. I also like the two Day's Undoing plan.
From my second catastrophic loss vs. Bogles - Sphinx's Tutelage targets. Leyline of Sanctity exists (and sucks). Gonna replace it with a Glaring Spotlight (so that T3/4 Seismic, T5 Swan, dig for Spotlight works as a play).
Considering that we run so many lands, and we only really need 9 Islands to make Blood Moon work (makes some assumptions, but is basically accurate); I'm going to test 2-3 in the side.
Hurkyl's Recall is also a thing I need to look into buying.
1 Day's Undoing
2 Molten Vortex
4 Seismic Assault
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 Treasure Hunt
Non-Combo Tools
2 Drake Haven
1 Faithless Looting
Lands
4 Canyon Slough
3 Cascade Bluffs
2 Fetid Pools
9 Island
11 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
1 Steam Vents
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Wandering Fumarole
2 Abrade
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sphinx's Tutelage
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Molten Vortex
2 Spell Pierce
1 Glorious End
2 Tormod's Crypt