Sunforger recently received some crucial new pieces that might allow it to compete in Modern. The recently spoiled Fervent Champion is an incredible upgrade over previous options like Puresteel Paladin and Kazuul's Toll Collector as an enabler. A solid beater, he also wields the hammer adequately even without its abilities and is a great target for Batterskulls and Swords as well. On a related note Stoneforge Mystic has also managed to escape the banlist, giving the deck a powerful tutor for its namesake artifact, as well as a solid foundation in the classic Batterskull/Sword package.
I think the cards are now available to have the deck use Sunforger as a singleton and become a standalone R/W/x midrange deck without it. Other new printings like Giver of Runes slot comfortably into a Ranger-Captain of Eos package which brings even more utility and consistency. I cant stress how powerful having a Sunforger + Fervent Champion on board is if not contested, and games can be closed out very quickly if it's assembled. Here's a preliminary list to get things rolling;
Spell slots are very flexible, this is a sort of toolbox deck after all. Not much testing to be had until the Champion releases, but obviously Silence + Mistveil Plains locks and all the old good stuff still works. Manamorphose can also be interesting, allowing a Draw 4 + Any Spell for RW with the combo. Lots of figuring out to do. Mainboard catch alls like Generous Gift, Bedevil, and even spicy cards like Lapse of Certainty can be utilized to have a maindeck answer to just about anything. Sideboard possibilities are endless and customizable to any meta. After a thorough search for playables I think the most promising variants are R/W with a light blue or black splash.
Would love to hear other takes/improvements. Awesome to have Wizards finally print some more tech for this. Help me take it to the next level!
708.4. In every zone except the stack, the characteristics of a split card are those of its two halves combined. This is a change from previous rules.
While that change basically renders this list's whole sideboard useless, it doesn't necessarily hurt the actual combo you're trying to build around here.
Isochron Scepter is, generally speaking, not very good in modern. It's unreliable and way too easy for your opponent to exploit with a K-Command or the like.
Kitesail Apprentice feels like a very strange choice here. Kor Outfitter and Leonin Shikari both have more relevant abilities to what you're trying to do here, in spite of their higher CMC.
Well thats lame, but hey, guess i gotta deal with it. I hear you about the scepter with that change, so thats out for sure. Kitesail Apprentice is mostly there as an efficient beater with evasion while holding the sword or a forger, but i could consider the other 2 i guess. Its a backup plan of sorts. And yea, ill have to overhaul the sideboard. Thanks for the suggestions!
@megatog201
Seems like a dead draw and a general gimmick, but it could be fun to try to make work i guess, but i dont think i want to go that route. Thanks anyways.
Gotta say, I really like what you have going on here. As someone else pointed out, R&D doesn't work quite like you want it to. In addition to this, I don't think you want even a single Mox Opal in this deck with the way it's currently constructed, let alone 4 of them. Enabling Metalcraft seems quite difficult in this deck. However, we do want metalcraft for Paladin, meaning that I think rather remove Opal, we need to add some more artifacts. Third order of business: Kitesail Apprentice seems very out of place here. And last but not least, I think you could use a larger toolbox of instants, especially with R&D not working the way you want. So, considering all this, I would consider making (roughly) the following changes (in the main):
Of course, these numbers are almost certainly off, and there are probably of plenty better cards I'm not thinking of. But I feel like this is a good place to start. The needle is a nice catch-all of sorts, Wreckage is a forge-able board wipe, relic is a bit of maindeck grave hate (Very relevant right now, and it cantrips!), and talisman give you just a bit of ramp (while turning on metalcraft).
I definitely want to take this for a spin, and honestly, this looks like it has the potential to be...not the worst deck I've ever seen. I'm excited!
Alright. After a little bit of goldfishing and fiddling with numbers, here's what I have...for the time being. It still feels generally pretty bad (and suffers from drawing the wrong half of the deck), but once it gets going it's really powerful. Despite the flaws, I do believe it is better than the original list. Anyway, here goes nothing.
This list is *completely* untested. I will be testing this some on Trice at least when I get the time. Now, onto the meat...and by meat, I mean stuff that looks weird.
2 Sunforger: Yes, this is the namesake of the deck. Yes, we do want often want to play it as soon as we get the chance. However, I've decided to cut it to two. To compensate, I went up to 4 Steelshaper's Gift. This also lets us do a little bit extra, which I'll talk about later.
2 Talisman of Progress: A little bit of ramp, plus it adds to our metalcraft. What's more, it fixes for W, which is actually really important in this deck.
1 Batterskull: Plan B. What I often found in playing this deck is that I had one or more Sunforgers, but no creatures to wield them. This gives us a tutorable creature thanks to our 4 Gift plan, and an alternate wincon (especially when combined with Inkmoth Nexus). This card is often subpar against things like Death's Shadow, but shines if you can pump it out early against burn.
1 Retaliate: Our stand-in Settle the Wreckage. I think having a tutorable board wipe is quite important in this deck, and Wreckage seems like a nice way to do that. In my opinion, settle will be better once we can play it, since we don't have to take damage first.
20 lands: I often found myself getting mana flooded, with our 21 lands (plus 4 opals, mind you), so I cut one.
1 Inkmoth Nexus: I wanted to make room for Inventors' Fair, and definitely didn't want to cut a colored source to do it. So here we are. I would like a second one, but right now that isn't something I can figure out very well.
1 Inventors' Fair: A very good card in this deck. Gains us life. Tutors up Sunforger. Tutors up Batterskull. Can even tutor up Isochron Scepter and Pithing Needle. All around, great card for any deck running enough artifacts to hit metalcraft.
4 Steelshaper's Gift: This gives us a nice little toolbox. Lets us run essentially 6 copies of Sunforger (up to 8 if we change cards around), and 5 copies of Batterskull. Also good for something I want to change in the future: adding swords. I would like to find room for at least Sword of X and Y in the 75 here, but I'm not sure which one or in what slot yet.
Sideboard:
1 Apostle's Blessing: Hate protection. This shuts down spot removal, can be forged out, and costs 1 mana from hand. This card can protect both our creatures and our artifacts, making it very versatile.
1 Repel the Abominable: Valakut? What's that? This card can shut down a lot of problem decks, like Storm, Scapeshift, and Ad Naus. Seems decent enough I think.
1 Mana Tithe: This card should almost certainly be anything else. But what can I say? I love the blowouts this can cause when your opponent isn't expecting it.
1 Abrade: This should probably just be another Wear // Tear, but I do like the versatility it brings to the table.
2 Return to Dust: Affinity hate of choice. Can tutor it up during our opponent's turn, or tutor it during our turn to hit 2 things. Also splash hates a few other random decks.
There are a lot of improvements that still need to be made to this deck, I think. Namely, the addition of a third color. This will require a pretty heavy rework of the mana base, but a third color would provide us with so much.
Black
Black offers a variety of options, both in the main and sideboard.
This probably isn't a comprehensive list of what each color has to offer, but it does give us a half-decent idea. I like blue and black for potential splashes (we actually get to play with [card]Counterspell[card], at the cost of...uh...RW), while the best thing green offers is Advent for a 2-mana 5/5 (or just a creature if you draw the card). As you may notice, my list is missing any sideboard cards that you couldn't hardcast. I see what you were going for on the Research plan, but since that's gone, I think we need to focus on cards we can cast, since drawing an uncastable card is the same as skipping a draw. Just my two cents.
@BACE i really like the direction youre going.
I do have some comments however.
- First of all, I quite like the singleton batterskull and +2 gift package, though i feel like id like sunforger as a 3 of.
- With R&D's changes to split cards, I dont think Isochron Scepter is worth it for us anymore, and it should be cut for 1-2 swords. Sword of Feast and Famine as well as Sword of War and Peace come to mind.
- Kitesail Apprentice, while janky, holds equipment very efficiently, and most importantly is a white permanent for Mistveil Plains. I think a replacement could be in order, but i think another white body is the way to go.
- I know you talked about cutting Mox Opal, but i think its frankly unrealistic, the mana acceleration and fixing is too good for us ive found after a bit of playtesting
- I think if we want a rock Boros Signet is strictly better than Talisman of Progress. Theres no pain to tap it, and it can fix the mana from any of our colorless lands to perfect sunforger colors.
- I dont think splitting for a third color is wise. As it is, this deck will be running a volatile mana base, and fixing constant RW with a three color landbase will be very difficult without something like Mana Confluence etc. If i absolutely wanted to splash, i think the color to go would be black, and i welcome some expirimentation, but expect it to fail.
- Not sure about maindeck Pithing Needle, but i will give it a few games. Perhaps 1 in the side and a Sorcerous Spyglass mainboard?
- Liking a singleton Settle the Wreckage
- I like relic but, we lose recursion from Mistveil Plains. Is there a better way to do it? What about Wheel of Sun and Moon? Its a flexible help/hate card depending on the situation.
- Liking Blessed Alliance less and less the more i play it. Liking Silence more and more. Maybe a little tinkering with the mainboard suite is in order.
- Intimidation Bolt is proving to be an absolute all star in so many matchups. Considering maybe upping to 2 maindeck.
- If we go more all in on artifacts, i think we should adjust Galvanic Blast vs Dispatch count based on list. More artifacts make dispatch feel really good to draw. Although i still think itll be boarded out in less creature oriented matchups.
Thoughts? I feel like we should probably just build this assuming Ixalan cards are legal, as any finalized build probably wont be around till then, haha.
Okay. The second rite was just a joke. I've always wanted to see that card work... But know it never will.
A more serious suggestion is Master Warcraft. Probably over intimidation Bolt. The cool thing about Warcraft is you make all the decisions. So it can be a no attacks like bolt, but can also be CA. Attack with their dudes into yours. Also on the flip side it can be a no blocks so you can alpha into them. Or can make them block with only certain guys to get CA and get some damage in. So many more applications than just 3ing a dude and no attacks.
A single Condemn is good in these decisions also. You may not always have metalcraft. And very early on sending a goyf or DS back to the library can save you lots of life. Late game after mistvieil is active they really have issues trying to figure out how to attack you.
-Sunforger could probably stand to go up one more. These were quick, late-night changes, and I have no doubt they're far from perfect.
-I'm...still not sure. Scepter helps us reach metalcraft, and still has a lot of utility. It can do the good old Silence every turn cheaper than Sunforger/Mistveil, and can also give us Lightning Helix and Galvanic Blast every turn, both of which can be very difficult for opponents to deal with. I think this needs testing for sure. Definitely do want to find room for at least 1 sword though, with Feast//Famine getting my vote.
-I guess I see the point, but I'll still be looking for something better. If all we need is a white permanent, why not Sigarda's Aid? I'm not sold on it either yet, but being able to turn 1 this, turn 2 paladin, turn 3 cast and equip sunforger at instant speed while holding up and instants in our hand does sound appealing. Again though, I'm definitely not sold on it, just throwing stuff against the wall here.
-That was more or less me typing stream of consciousness. Basically, what I meant was "Either cut the opals, or play more artifacts." So I played more artifacts, because like you said, Opal is really good.
-Not gonna lie. Forgot signets were a thing when I was making this last night.
-I'm still gonna give a third color a shot. Will report back here with a preliminary list once I have it.
-Pithing Needle can do a lot of work, but like you say, we'll have to see how we like it.
-I'd say tinkering of the mb suite is definitely in order. There are so many cards out there that could fit into this deck it's ridiculous. This is gonna take a lot of testing I think, and the exact instant package will probably be meta dependant.
-That's fair, yeah. We'll have to see how much we focus on Metalcraft though.
And building as though XLN cards are legal makes sense, although I think Settle is the only thing in XLN that makes the cut. I made the current list without Settle so Cockatrice testing could be done.
EDIT: if you really just want white 1-drop permanents, I think Thraben Inspector and Judge's Familiar fit the bill fairly well here. Inspector is a white permanent, and helps us hit metalcraft, while familiar is a white flier that we can cash in to counter an opponent's spell, or just use to set an opponent back a turn on instant/sorcery plays.
-I'm...still not sure. Scepter helps us reach metalcraft, and still has a lot of utility. It can do the good old Silence every turn cheaper than Sunforger/Mistveil, and can also give us Lightning Helix and Galvanic Blast every turn, both of which can be very difficult for opponents to deal with. I think this needs testing for sure. Definitely do want to find room for at least 1 sword though, with Feast//Famine getting my vote.
I originally suggested the removal of scepter, and I think that might need more context. All of my experience with the card comes from using it in Azorious Turbo-Fog with both fog effects and other spells like Negate. The spells were not the same as this deck, but ultimately the goal of both of our decks is to establish a soft lock so our slow win conditions can take over. I ultimately decided to take it out of the deck.
The thing about scepter is that it needs to cast the imprinted spell twice (once to replace the exiled spell and once to make up for Scepter otherwise doing nothing on its own) in order to break even on card advantage. If your opponent has an answer before that, which will be frequent in games 2 and 3, then you lose on both CA and tempo.
That brings me to my second issue with scepter, its unavoidable tempo loss. Your initial cast of the artifact will be spending two mana to do nothing of importance, save maybe turning on metalcraft. If you drop it early, you probably won't get to use it in the same turn. If you drop it late enough to use it right away you've just spent 4 mana to cast a 1-2 CMC instant either as a sorcery or a telegraphed instant. Either way, it's a huge tempo loss that many of modern's faster decks will take advantage of to beat you down.
@BACE
I think Thraben Inspector is a great find and a good choice for the deck. It pulls triple duty, giving us an artifact(and potential card draw if needed), an Equipment wielder in a pinch, and a white permanent.
I did tinker with Master Warcraft in my very first iteration of this deck, as well as mainboard Wild Ricochet. However, I dont like it because when you actually draw the card, it feels very underwhelming. It shines in certain specific situations and is great when you're just using sunforger to cast it, but it feels bad to be throwing out 4 mana on such a situational effect in a deck that has so many things to do with its mana. Meanwhile, drawing into a copy of Intimidation Bolt doesnt really pose a big issue. Its 1cmc less, and usually can function as both a removal and stall spell with much more versatile options when cast from the hand. I think the thing to take away from this is that while we *can* cast overcosted situational spells, why not try to increase consistency and overall power by making each piece of the deck function on its own? Im not against a singleton Master Warcraft for some more testing, but in the 8 or so games i play with it, i drew it in 5 games, and never hard casted it.
Overall, im leaning towards a metalcraft package for the deck. Opals and Paladin aside, Spells like Dispatch and Galvanic Blast are incredibly powerful with this condition fulfilled, becoming some of the best removal in modern with the conditions met.
Also, while our landbase is a little diluted, ive been messing with 1-2 Rugged Prairie and quite enjoying the filtering, although im unsure where to squeeze it in.
And i agree with the points made about the scepter by BlazingRagnarok. Its a big tempo loss for us, especially against decks with mainboard removal like Abrupt Decay, and makes us even weaker to sideboard hate like Stony Silence.
-I'm...still not sure. Scepter helps us reach metalcraft, and still has a lot of utility. It can do the good old Silence every turn cheaper than Sunforger/Mistveil, and can also give us Lightning Helix and Galvanic Blast every turn, both of which can be very difficult for opponents to deal with. I think this needs testing for sure. Definitely do want to find room for at least 1 sword though, with Feast//Famine getting my vote.
I originally suggested the removal of scepter, and I think that might need more context. All of my experience with the card comes from using it in Azorious Turbo-Fog with both fog effects and other spells like Negate. The spells were not the same as this deck, but ultimately the goal of both of our decks is to establish a soft lock so our slow win conditions can take over. I ultimately decided to take it out of the deck.
The thing about scepter is that it needs to cast the imprinted spell twice (once to replace the exiled spell and once to make up for Scepter otherwise doing nothing on its own) in order to break even on card advantage. If your opponent has an answer before that, which will be frequent in games 2 and 3, then you lose on both CA and tempo.
That brings me to my second issue with scepter, its unavoidable tempo loss. Your initial cast of the artifact will be spending two mana to do nothing of importance, save maybe turning on metalcraft. If you drop it early, you probably won't get to use it in the same turn. If you drop it late enough to use it right away you've just spent 4 mana to cast a 1-2 CMC instant either as a sorcery or a telegraphed instant. Either way, it's a huge tempo loss that many of modern's faster decks will take advantage of to beat you down.
Alright, that makes sense. I do like the idea of jamming sword, so I'll give this a shot. I'm currently working on 3-color lists for this deck, trying to keep the splash light enough that we don't need a total manabase overhaul. I think it's going well so far. I'll report back when those are all done.
Sunforger has always been the card I've secretly wanted to break into modern with. Of course, my idea was to do something stupid, like use it to play Punish Ignorance every turn. I really like this idea, especially Isochron Scepter, a card I totally forgot existed in modern and is hard for me to believe isn't played at all.
I do still like the idea of playing counterspells off Sunforger, but maybe Silence is enough. After all, it seems like every hard counter requires double blue. Ojutai's Command is a beast of a 4-mana instant, though.
Another funny thing about Sunforger is it can find almost every three color charm (all except Sultai Charm), and 70% of the guild charms.
@BACE
Black with Crackling Doom, Terminate, and Kholaghan's Command seems most promising if you wanna give that a shot. Not worth the instability imo, but tell me how it goes
Since he's not even playing Path to Exile, I'm not sure why he'd run Condemn. And I assume he's not running Path because Dispatch is easy enough to get online.
Still, I'd definitely run at least one path for those situations where you don't have metalcraft.
Very quick rundown: B splash looks the most viable in my opinion. Blue splash is the most interesting. G splash does almost nothing.
I want to talk on the U splash very quickly here. More specifically, the sideboard. I made this one a bit spicier, with a SB package of 3x Artificer's Intuition. Of course I still have some instants, but I thought this would offer a different angle.
This package gives us EE, Cage, needle, and welding jar, along with three copies of a tutor. No idea how that'll play out, but I just thought it seemed like a fun idea.
On Condemn, I think we would want a 1-of path before we run condemns.
Interesting. I respect y'alls opinions. Condemn does have advantage over path in a deck that can tutor for instants however. Granted that dispatch is the best mid and late game card. Grinds out the opponent with relative ease.
Not 100% on the mainboard suite, but everything feels playable on its own, and that's the goal at the moment.
One thing i want to tinker with is a mainboard copy of Deflecting Palm. Its been super relevant against Valakut mainly, and generally pretty handy all around. Also the inspector is a powerhouse
Thoughts?
Also, I don't see how Deflecting Palm would be that good against Scapeshift cecks. Palm is good against decks that deal a bunch of damage at once, but not as good against decks that deal damage in lots of small packages, like Valakut and storm decks.
Reviving this thread since SFM has been unbanned. I feel like Sunforger would be best as just a 1 of in a SFM value midrange deck, unless perhaps there’s an infinite combo with it, that’s not too hard to pull off.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Infinate combo with Sunforger? I doubt that can happen... BUT if you do run a creature heavy, or a heavy token version, that can get metalcraft pretty easily you can grab 4 Manamorphose to increase storm count then use that last 2 mana to cast Haze of Rage to get an extra +5/+0 to all your dudes. Or grapeshot to deal more damage. Neither of these is really that good however.
Edit could in theory sunforge Battle Hymn. Make 2 white mana with manamorphose. Cast another hymn with all that red from the first and 1 of the white made with Manamorphose. To play another Hymn. Then that last white is used to get another manamorphose. 2 white mana please. Then another hymn... then another manamorphose... then hymn... then morphose... then haze of rage with buyback as many times as you can. Probably can swing for tens of thousands with that... not infinate, but could do the trick.
Possible turn 4 win with Koldotha Rebirth and/or other efficient token production.
If you want to go all the way down the rabbit hole you can play a set of Runaway Steam-kin and Young Pyromancer.
OVERHAULED FOR SEPT 2019 - TOE/SFM UNBAN
Sunforger recently received some crucial new pieces that might allow it to compete in Modern. The recently spoiled Fervent Champion is an incredible upgrade over previous options like Puresteel Paladin and Kazuul's Toll Collector as an enabler. A solid beater, he also wields the hammer adequately even without its abilities and is a great target for Batterskulls and Swords as well. On a related note Stoneforge Mystic has also managed to escape the banlist, giving the deck a powerful tutor for its namesake artifact, as well as a solid foundation in the classic Batterskull/Sword package.
I think the cards are now available to have the deck use Sunforger as a singleton and become a standalone R/W/x midrange deck without it. Other new printings like Giver of Runes slot comfortably into a Ranger-Captain of Eos package which brings even more utility and consistency. I cant stress how powerful having a Sunforger + Fervent Champion on board is if not contested, and games can be closed out very quickly if it's assembled. Here's a preliminary list to get things rolling;
// 4 Artifact
1 Sunforger
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
// 17 Creature
4 Fervent Champion
4 Giver of Runes
3 Ranger-Captain of Eos
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Manamorphose
2 Lightning Helix
1 Boros Charm
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Kaya's Guile
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Silence
2 Path To Exile
// 4 Sorcery
4 Lingering Souls
2 Mistveil Plains
4 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
2 Godless Shrine
2 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
2 Rugged Prarie
1 Castle Ardenvale
Spell slots are very flexible, this is a sort of toolbox deck after all. Not much testing to be had until the Champion releases, but obviously Silence + Mistveil Plains locks and all the old good stuff still works. Manamorphose can also be interesting, allowing a Draw 4 + Any Spell for RW with the combo. Lots of figuring out to do. Mainboard catch alls like Generous Gift, Bedevil, and even spicy cards like Lapse of Certainty can be utilized to have a maindeck answer to just about anything. Sideboard possibilities are endless and customizable to any meta. After a thorough search for playables I think the most promising variants are R/W with a light blue or black splash.
Would love to hear other takes/improvements. Awesome to have Wizards finally print some more tech for this. Help me take it to the next level!
708.4. In every zone except the stack, the characteristics of a split card are those of its two halves combined. This is a change from previous rules.
While that change basically renders this list's whole sideboard useless, it doesn't necessarily hurt the actual combo you're trying to build around here.
Isochron Scepter is, generally speaking, not very good in modern. It's unreliable and way too easy for your opponent to exploit with a K-Command or the like.
Kitesail Apprentice feels like a very strange choice here. Kor Outfitter and Leonin Shikari both have more relevant abilities to what you're trying to do here, in spite of their higher CMC.
Kitesail Apprentice is mostly there as an efficient beater with evasion while holding the sword or a forger, but i could consider the other 2 i guess. Its a backup plan of sorts. And yea, ill have to overhaul the sideboard. Thanks for the suggestions!
It's do easy to get them down to 10 with forger. Then bammm 10 to the face.
Seems like a dead draw and a general gimmick, but it could be fun to try to make work i guess, but i dont think i want to go that route. Thanks anyways.
*sigh* Don't use Hidetsugu's Second Rite in modern, ever. Almost everybody has mainboard answers to the card i.e. fetchlands.
-4 Kitesail Apprentice
-1 Research // Development
-1 Silence
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Settle the Wreckage
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+1 Talisman of Progress
Of course, these numbers are almost certainly off, and there are probably of plenty better cards I'm not thinking of. But I feel like this is a good place to start. The needle is a nice catch-all of sorts, Wreckage is a forge-able board wipe, relic is a bit of maindeck grave hate (Very relevant right now, and it cantrips!), and talisman give you just a bit of ramp (while turning on metalcraft).
I definitely want to take this for a spin, and honestly, this looks like it has the potential to be...not the worst deck I've ever seen. I'm excited!
2 Sunforger
4 Mox Opal
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Talisman of Progress
1 Batterskull
Creatures (7)
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Kazuul's Toll Collector
Instant (14)
4 Lightning Helix
1 Boros Charm
2 Dispatch
2 Galvanic Blast
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Silence
1 Intimidation Bolt
1 Retaliate
2 Mistveil Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Plains
1 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Inventors' Fair
Sorcery (4)
4 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Wear // Tear
1 Dawn Charm
2 Deflecting Palm
1 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Galvanic Blast
1 Dispatch
1 Wild Ricochet
1 Apostle's Blessing
1 Repel the Abominable
1 Mana Tithe
1 Abrade
2 Return to Dust
Some things to note here:
This list is *completely* untested. I will be testing this some on Trice at least when I get the time. Now, onto the meat...and by meat, I mean stuff that looks weird.
2 Sunforger: Yes, this is the namesake of the deck. Yes, we do want often want to play it as soon as we get the chance. However, I've decided to cut it to two. To compensate, I went up to 4 Steelshaper's Gift. This also lets us do a little bit extra, which I'll talk about later.
2 Talisman of Progress: A little bit of ramp, plus it adds to our metalcraft. What's more, it fixes for W, which is actually really important in this deck.
1 Batterskull: Plan B. What I often found in playing this deck is that I had one or more Sunforgers, but no creatures to wield them. This gives us a tutorable creature thanks to our 4 Gift plan, and an alternate wincon (especially when combined with Inkmoth Nexus). This card is often subpar against things like Death's Shadow, but shines if you can pump it out early against burn.
1 Retaliate: Our stand-in Settle the Wreckage. I think having a tutorable board wipe is quite important in this deck, and Wreckage seems like a nice way to do that. In my opinion, settle will be better once we can play it, since we don't have to take damage first.
20 lands: I often found myself getting mana flooded, with our 21 lands (plus 4 opals, mind you), so I cut one.
1 Inkmoth Nexus: I wanted to make room for Inventors' Fair, and definitely didn't want to cut a colored source to do it. So here we are. I would like a second one, but right now that isn't something I can figure out very well.
1 Inventors' Fair: A very good card in this deck. Gains us life. Tutors up Sunforger. Tutors up Batterskull. Can even tutor up Isochron Scepter and Pithing Needle. All around, great card for any deck running enough artifacts to hit metalcraft.
4 Steelshaper's Gift: This gives us a nice little toolbox. Lets us run essentially 6 copies of Sunforger (up to 8 if we change cards around), and 5 copies of Batterskull. Also good for something I want to change in the future: adding swords. I would like to find room for at least Sword of X and Y in the 75 here, but I'm not sure which one or in what slot yet.
Sideboard:
1 Apostle's Blessing: Hate protection. This shuts down spot removal, can be forged out, and costs 1 mana from hand. This card can protect both our creatures and our artifacts, making it very versatile.
1 Repel the Abominable: Valakut? What's that? This card can shut down a lot of problem decks, like Storm, Scapeshift, and Ad Naus. Seems decent enough I think.
1 Mana Tithe: This card should almost certainly be anything else. But what can I say? I love the blowouts this can cause when your opponent isn't expecting it.
1 Abrade: This should probably just be another Wear // Tear, but I do like the versatility it brings to the table.
2 Return to Dust: Affinity hate of choice. Can tutor it up during our opponent's turn, or tutor it during our turn to hit 2 things. Also splash hates a few other random decks.
There are a lot of improvements that still need to be made to this deck, I think. Namely, the addition of a third color. This will require a pretty heavy rework of the mana base, but a third color would provide us with so much.
Black
Black offers a variety of options, both in the main and sideboard.
Fatal Push
Kolaghan's Command
Anguished Unmaking
Terminate
Rakdos Charm
Crackling Doom
Blue
Counterflux
Render Silent
Ojutai's Command
Electrolyze
Restore the Peace
Dramatic Rescue
Whir of Invention
Artificer's Intuition
Green
Destructive Revelry
Advent of the Wurm
This probably isn't a comprehensive list of what each color has to offer, but it does give us a half-decent idea. I like blue and black for potential splashes (we actually get to play with [card]Counterspell[card], at the cost of...uh...RW), while the best thing green offers is Advent for a 2-mana 5/5 (or just a creature if you draw the card). As you may notice, my list is missing any sideboard cards that you couldn't hardcast. I see what you were going for on the Research plan, but since that's gone, I think we need to focus on cards we can cast, since drawing an uncastable card is the same as skipping a draw. Just my two cents.
I do have some comments however.
- First of all, I quite like the singleton batterskull and +2 gift package, though i feel like id like sunforger as a 3 of.
- With R&D's changes to split cards, I dont think Isochron Scepter is worth it for us anymore, and it should be cut for 1-2 swords. Sword of Feast and Famine as well as Sword of War and Peace come to mind.
- Kitesail Apprentice, while janky, holds equipment very efficiently, and most importantly is a white permanent for Mistveil Plains. I think a replacement could be in order, but i think another white body is the way to go.
- I know you talked about cutting Mox Opal, but i think its frankly unrealistic, the mana acceleration and fixing is too good for us ive found after a bit of playtesting
- I think if we want a rock Boros Signet is strictly better than Talisman of Progress. Theres no pain to tap it, and it can fix the mana from any of our colorless lands to perfect sunforger colors.
- I dont think splitting for a third color is wise. As it is, this deck will be running a volatile mana base, and fixing constant RW with a three color landbase will be very difficult without something like Mana Confluence etc. If i absolutely wanted to splash, i think the color to go would be black, and i welcome some expirimentation, but expect it to fail.
- Not sure about maindeck Pithing Needle, but i will give it a few games. Perhaps 1 in the side and a Sorcerous Spyglass mainboard?
- Liking a singleton Settle the Wreckage
- I like relic but, we lose recursion from Mistveil Plains. Is there a better way to do it? What about Wheel of Sun and Moon? Its a flexible help/hate card depending on the situation.
- Liking Blessed Alliance less and less the more i play it. Liking Silence more and more. Maybe a little tinkering with the mainboard suite is in order.
- Intimidation Bolt is proving to be an absolute all star in so many matchups. Considering maybe upping to 2 maindeck.
- If we go more all in on artifacts, i think we should adjust Galvanic Blast vs Dispatch count based on list. More artifacts make dispatch feel really good to draw. Although i still think itll be boarded out in less creature oriented matchups.
Thoughts? I feel like we should probably just build this assuming Ixalan cards are legal, as any finalized build probably wont be around till then, haha.
A more serious suggestion is Master Warcraft. Probably over intimidation Bolt. The cool thing about Warcraft is you make all the decisions. So it can be a no attacks like bolt, but can also be CA. Attack with their dudes into yours. Also on the flip side it can be a no blocks so you can alpha into them. Or can make them block with only certain guys to get CA and get some damage in. So many more applications than just 3ing a dude and no attacks.
A single Condemn is good in these decisions also. You may not always have metalcraft. And very early on sending a goyf or DS back to the library can save you lots of life. Late game after mistvieil is active they really have issues trying to figure out how to attack you.
-Sunforger could probably stand to go up one more. These were quick, late-night changes, and I have no doubt they're far from perfect.
-I'm...still not sure. Scepter helps us reach metalcraft, and still has a lot of utility. It can do the good old Silence every turn cheaper than Sunforger/Mistveil, and can also give us Lightning Helix and Galvanic Blast every turn, both of which can be very difficult for opponents to deal with. I think this needs testing for sure. Definitely do want to find room for at least 1 sword though, with Feast//Famine getting my vote.
-I guess I see the point, but I'll still be looking for something better. If all we need is a white permanent, why not Sigarda's Aid? I'm not sold on it either yet, but being able to turn 1 this, turn 2 paladin, turn 3 cast and equip sunforger at instant speed while holding up and instants in our hand does sound appealing. Again though, I'm definitely not sold on it, just throwing stuff against the wall here.
-That was more or less me typing stream of consciousness. Basically, what I meant was "Either cut the opals, or play more artifacts." So I played more artifacts, because like you said, Opal is really good.
-Not gonna lie. Forgot signets were a thing when I was making this last night.
-I'm still gonna give a third color a shot. Will report back here with a preliminary list once I have it.
-Pithing Needle can do a lot of work, but like you say, we'll have to see how we like it.
-Oof, I forgot about Mistveil Plains. I guess we have a few options here. We can either play around it, or switch to something else. If we splash black, we can use Nihil Spellbomb. Other options include Tormod's Crypt and Grafdigger's Cage.
-I'd say tinkering of the mb suite is definitely in order. There are so many cards out there that could fit into this deck it's ridiculous. This is gonna take a lot of testing I think, and the exact instant package will probably be meta dependant.
-I also like Intimidation Bolt, but I agree with megatog that Master Warcraft is attractive as well.
-That's fair, yeah. We'll have to see how much we focus on Metalcraft though.
And building as though XLN cards are legal makes sense, although I think Settle is the only thing in XLN that makes the cut. I made the current list without Settle so Cockatrice testing could be done.
EDIT: if you really just want white 1-drop permanents, I think Thraben Inspector and Judge's Familiar fit the bill fairly well here. Inspector is a white permanent, and helps us hit metalcraft, while familiar is a white flier that we can cash in to counter an opponent's spell, or just use to set an opponent back a turn on instant/sorcery plays.
I originally suggested the removal of scepter, and I think that might need more context. All of my experience with the card comes from using it in Azorious Turbo-Fog with both fog effects and other spells like Negate. The spells were not the same as this deck, but ultimately the goal of both of our decks is to establish a soft lock so our slow win conditions can take over. I ultimately decided to take it out of the deck.
The thing about scepter is that it needs to cast the imprinted spell twice (once to replace the exiled spell and once to make up for Scepter otherwise doing nothing on its own) in order to break even on card advantage. If your opponent has an answer before that, which will be frequent in games 2 and 3, then you lose on both CA and tempo.
That brings me to my second issue with scepter, its unavoidable tempo loss. Your initial cast of the artifact will be spending two mana to do nothing of importance, save maybe turning on metalcraft. If you drop it early, you probably won't get to use it in the same turn. If you drop it late enough to use it right away you've just spent 4 mana to cast a 1-2 CMC instant either as a sorcery or a telegraphed instant. Either way, it's a huge tempo loss that many of modern's faster decks will take advantage of to beat you down.
I think Thraben Inspector is a great find and a good choice for the deck. It pulls triple duty, giving us an artifact(and potential card draw if needed), an Equipment wielder in a pinch, and a white permanent.
I did tinker with Master Warcraft in my very first iteration of this deck, as well as mainboard Wild Ricochet. However, I dont like it because when you actually draw the card, it feels very underwhelming. It shines in certain specific situations and is great when you're just using sunforger to cast it, but it feels bad to be throwing out 4 mana on such a situational effect in a deck that has so many things to do with its mana. Meanwhile, drawing into a copy of Intimidation Bolt doesnt really pose a big issue. Its 1cmc less, and usually can function as both a removal and stall spell with much more versatile options when cast from the hand. I think the thing to take away from this is that while we *can* cast overcosted situational spells, why not try to increase consistency and overall power by making each piece of the deck function on its own? Im not against a singleton Master Warcraft for some more testing, but in the 8 or so games i play with it, i drew it in 5 games, and never hard casted it.
Overall, im leaning towards a metalcraft package for the deck. Opals and Paladin aside, Spells like Dispatch and Galvanic Blast are incredibly powerful with this condition fulfilled, becoming some of the best removal in modern with the conditions met.
Also, while our landbase is a little diluted, ive been messing with 1-2 Rugged Prairie and quite enjoying the filtering, although im unsure where to squeeze it in.
And i agree with the points made about the scepter by BlazingRagnarok. Its a big tempo loss for us, especially against decks with mainboard removal like Abrupt Decay, and makes us even weaker to sideboard hate like Stony Silence.
Alright, that makes sense. I do like the idea of jamming sword, so I'll give this a shot. I'm currently working on 3-color lists for this deck, trying to keep the splash light enough that we don't need a total manabase overhaul. I think it's going well so far. I'll report back when those are all done.
I do still like the idea of playing counterspells off Sunforger, but maybe Silence is enough. After all, it seems like every hard counter requires double blue. Ojutai's Command is a beast of a 4-mana instant, though.
Another funny thing about Sunforger is it can find almost every three color charm (all except Sultai Charm), and 70% of the guild charms.
Black with Crackling Doom, Terminate, and Kholaghan's Command seems most promising if you wanna give that a shot. Not worth the instability imo, but tell me how it goes
Still, I'd definitely run at least one path for those situations where you don't have metalcraft.
1x Batterskull
1x Blood Crypt
1x Boros Charm
1x Boros Signet
1x Crackling Doom
2x Darksteel Citadel
2x Dispatch
2x Galvanic Blast
1x Godless Shrine
1x Intimidation Bolt
1x Inventors' Fair
3x Kazuul's Toll Collector
1x Kolaghan's Command
3x Lightning Helix
4x Marsh Flats
1x Mistveil Plains
4x Mox Opal
2x Pithing Needle
1x Plains
4x Puresteel Paladin
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Retaliate
4x Sacred Foundry
1x Silence
4x Steelshaper's Gift
2x Sunforger
1x Swamp
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Talisman of Indulgence
1x Terminate
2x Thraben Inspector
1x Abrade
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Apostle's Blessing
2x Deflecting Palm
1x Dispatch
2x Galvanic Blast
1x Hallowed Moonlight
1x Mana Tithe
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Repel the Abominable
2x Return to Dust
1x Wear
1x Batterskull
1x Boros Charm
1x Boros Signet
1x Counterflux
2x Darksteel Citadel
2x Dispatch
1x Electrolyze
4x Flooded Strand
2x Galvanic Blast
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Intimidation Bolt
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Island
3x Kazuul's Toll Collector
4x Lightning Helix
1x Mistveil Plains
4x Mox Opal
2x Pithing Needle
1x Plains
4x Puresteel Paladin
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Restore the Peace
4x Sacred Foundry
1x Silence
1x Steam Vents
4x Steelshaper's Gift
2x Sunforger
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Talisman of Progress
2x Thraben Inspector
2x Apostle's Blessing
3x Artificer's Intuition
2x Deflecting Palm
1x Dramatic Rescue
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Render Silent
2x Wear
1x Welding Jar
4x Arid Mesa
1x Batterskull
1x Boros Signet
2x Darksteel Citadel
2x Dispatch
1x Forest
2x Galvanic Blast
1x Intimidation Bolt
1x Inventors' Fair
3x Kazuul's Toll Collector
4x Lightning Helix
1x Mistveil Plains
4x Mox Opal
1x Naya Charm
2x Pithing Needle
1x Plains
4x Puresteel Paladin
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Retaliate
4x Sacred Foundry
1x Silence
4x Steelshaper's Gift
1x Stomping Ground
2x Sunforger
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Talisman of Impulse
1x Talisman of Unity
1x Temple Garden
2x Thraben Inspector
4x Windswept Heath
1x Abrade
1x Apostle's Blessing
1x Atarka's Command
2x Deflecting Palm
1x Destructive Revelry
1x Dispatch
2x Galvanic Blast
1x Hallowed Moonlight
1x Mana Tithe
1x Repel the Abominable
2x Return to Dust
1x Wear
Very quick rundown: B splash looks the most viable in my opinion. Blue splash is the most interesting. G splash does almost nothing.
I want to talk on the U splash very quickly here. More specifically, the sideboard. I made this one a bit spicier, with a SB package of 3x Artificer's Intuition. Of course I still have some instants, but I thought this would offer a different angle.
This package gives us EE, Cage, needle, and welding jar, along with three copies of a tutor. No idea how that'll play out, but I just thought it seemed like a fun idea.
On Condemn, I think we would want a 1-of path before we run condemns.
// 11 Artifact
3 Sunforger
2 Boros Signet
4 Mox Opal
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
// 11 Creature
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Kazuul's Toll Collector
// 14 Instant
4 Lightning Helix
1 Boros Charm
2 Dispatch
3 Galvanic Blast
2 Silence
1 Intimidation Bolt
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Mistveil Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Plains
1 Inventor's Fair
1 Rugged Prairie
// 4 Sorcery
4 Steelshaper's Gift
2 Wear // Tear
1 Boil
2 Pithing Needle
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Deflecting Palm
1 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Galvanic Blast
2 Dispatch
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Repel the Abominable
1 Wild Ricochet
Not 100% on the mainboard suite, but everything feels playable on its own, and that's the goal at the moment.
One thing i want to tinker with is a mainboard copy of Deflecting Palm. Its been super relevant against Valakut mainly, and generally pretty handy all around. Also the inspector is a powerhouse
Thoughts?
Also, I don't see how Deflecting Palm would be that good against Scapeshift cecks. Palm is good against decks that deal a bunch of damage at once, but not as good against decks that deal damage in lots of small packages, like Valakut and storm decks.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Edit could in theory sunforge Battle Hymn. Make 2 white mana with manamorphose. Cast another hymn with all that red from the first and 1 of the white made with Manamorphose. To play another Hymn. Then that last white is used to get another manamorphose. 2 white mana please. Then another hymn... then another manamorphose... then hymn... then morphose... then haze of rage with buyback as many times as you can. Probably can swing for tens of thousands with that... not infinate, but could do the trick.
Possible turn 4 win with Koldotha Rebirth and/or other efficient token production.
If you want to go all the way down the rabbit hole you can play a set of Runaway Steam-kin and Young Pyromancer.