MTG Salvation

Fervent Champion and Stoneforge Mystic as new additions for Sunforger changes things up completely, hopefully warranting some fresh discussion!

Currently running some Mardu/Jeskai lists with Mystic package and a focus on value. Will edit op with list

What do you think of the Manamorphose plan in Ferventblade lists? This lets you draw 4 cards and chain them into a 5th spell the turn you equip Fervent Champion with Sunforger and pay RW. I'm mainly trying to extract as much value from cheap Sunforger unequips as possible because man, does Fervent Champion die to Wrenn and Six. Manamorphose can get clunky when naturally drawn, though. (It has been maindecked in Mardu Pyro builds, though.)

Also, in Jeskai builds, wouldn't Dovin's Veto be hilarious?

Quote from Lectrys »

What do you think of the Manamorphose plan in Ferventblade lists? This lets you draw 4 cards and chain them into a 5th spell the turn you equip Fervent Champion with Sunforger and pay RW. I'm mainly trying to extract as much value from cheap Sunforger unequips as possible because man, does Fervent Champion die to Wrenn and Six. Manamorphose can get clunky when naturally drawn, though. (It has been maindecked in Mardu Pyro builds, though.)

Also, in Jeskai builds, wouldn't Dovin's Veto be hilarious?

I think Manamorphose could be a solid inclusion. Draw 4 + Kcommand/Upkeep Silence for only RW is insane value, and most likely will push you into a commanding lead by itself. The only problem is making space for 4 cards in the already valuable spell package. I wonder if a larger than 60 card pile is warranted here? Since Mphose cantrips itself for free, could say, a 62 card list with 4 copies make sense? I think the thinning could help offset it and provide the deck with a similar consistency while allowing us to stay heavy on powerful utilities like Kaya's Guile, Kcommand, etc. The fixing is also fine for us, maybe allowing us to hardcast offcolor sideboard cards in the unfortunate case theyre drawn. Render Silent springs to mind as a powerful 1 of option im afraid to mainboard in Mardu.

Thoughts? Any reccomended cuts to the OP list?

Few days of light testing online yielded this:



Manamorphose is indeed an extremely solid card. Assembling the combo quickly drowns the opponent in card advantage most of the time due to the Draw 3-4 it provides if unanswered. Wins a lot of games outright, as its essentially often a "5 for 1". Also provides access to any sideboard card immediately. Sometimes I find its better to not to try to draw 4 if you're tapping out however, leaving it up to interact, and then drawing next turn when you have enough to leave an activation up as well. I find my first activation going to Silence a lot of the time to stall a turn.

I like the list, but I'm not a fan of the Lingering Souls. That card is just too slow for this format most of the time. There are so many very fast decks out there, I think you need to cut the Souls and add some more disruptive spells. Adding 4 bolts would be afine strt

So I spent some time modifying this deck. Here is where I’m at so far, although it’s definitely unfinished. Certainly still a work in progress, but I think this deck has potential.

How is Giver of Runes performing?

I was thinking to make a grindier list, adding discard spells (inquisition of kozilek and thoughtseize) and reusing all these spells with dreadhorde arcanist

Otherwise I fear we don't have much to control/disrupt what the opponent wants to do

Yeah, i've currently been trying to fit in more Inquisition. It's hard to find slots.

This is where I'm currently at.



The deck has been good so far, but I stil lhaven't tested much.


@lordlukas

It's possible that GIver is not ideal for this deck, and discard woudl be better, though it's a great card so hard to cut. Perhaps just less copies is correct . Dreadhorde is a great option. A split between the two could work, Though I think I might cut one or two Givers for 2 more Inquisitions.

Additional Note:

While the Manamorphose combo is sweet, I'm not sure it's worth it. Since we play 1 copy of Sunforger, which I think is correct, we don't want to be all-in on the sunforger plan, because then the deck is too vulnerable to interaction. The main reason Sunforger is great is because not only does it help a creature hit hard, create tons of value with mana, but also find that key Instant for the situation. It's tough, I'm still unsure about this, but I'd like to make room for Dreadhorde somehow. Dreadhorde comboes with all the 1 mana instant and sorceries and can provide just as much value, while we need both Sunforger and Champion to get the Morphose loop going.

I've found a way to get 4 inquisition in by cutting one Giver and cutting the Silence. Silence is more of a sideboard card I think.

@Rendroc @lordlukas

I think the Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtsieze plan is a solid line to run down, and thats been my consensus as well. Aiming for 4-6 disruption spells seems like it could make us less soft to interaction. The downside is the very awkward manabase it requires. Needing black on 1 and almost exclusively R/W for the rest of the game is rough. The deck's life total is definitely going to have to pay for it, and it makes utility lands like Mistveil Plains and Sunbaked Canyon feel worse.

Imo Giver of Runes is wayyy too strong to cut, as the Giver>Stoneforge line is one of the decks best, however it's definitely lacking in multiples. Cutting to 3 might to free up a little space could be optimal. Silence is incredible in some matchups, anything that struggles to interact in their upkeep concedes to it, but I agree its the most sideboard-able toolbox card in the maindeck. I do think it belongs in the 75 however.

Dreadhorde Arcanist could be a possibility as well, but I think the deck stretches too thin. We're already trying to accommodate 3 packackes, and the Sunforger package would probably have to be heavily pushed to favor Lightning Bolt(which has been severely under-performing for me) and Path to Exile. Recycling cards like Inquisition and Bolt is powerful though, and it gives us another must-answer on turn 2, though it's body is weak and generally, at least in other builds, I find only good for 1-2 activations.

On Manamorphose I dont think the opportunity cost is large enough to not run it. Actually resolving a Forger/Champion combo is backbreaking if its in the deck, but I could see trimming a copy for space reasons.

Here's what i'm on currently;



Lingering Souls, while slow, is an incredible card for this deck. It really helps grind, and the tokens are very good at holding equipment and stalling. Helps most midrange and control matchups considerably, Jund in particular. I'd love to make space in the main, and honestly might, but i've thrown some in the board for now. 1 copy can "fix" a flooded hand by itself, and is one of the best cards we have access to in topdeck mode.

I'm still not too convinced on the Manamorphose route, so I will start trying this one in the next days.
Let's see what happens...

Nahiri, the Harbinger is to cycle late discard spells.
Manabase is taken from the mardu pyromancer decks.

I like your argument for including Nahiri, though I’m not sure it’s corrrect. One issue I have with these non-blue midrange decks post Looting ban, is the lack of card filtering and Nahiri does help that aspect. A lot of people are running Seasoned Pyromancer for this reason. While I’m not a fan of rummaging, it’s one of the best cards in the non-blue colors that offers card selection now. I’d like to play a couple copies, if not Nahiri. ONe of the reasons I’m more drawn to Pyromancer, is that it fuels the Graveyard.

Here’s is my latest list which includes Arcanist. I cut all sideboard cards that were not in our colors, because drawing them without Manamophose is real bad.



Sideboard is uncertain, but getting there.

Nahiri and both Lilianas are great options.

Tested this list (OK, a few cards off) on Cockatrice against UW Stoneblade last night and this Ferventblade list kicked its butt every time, so I do think Ferventblade has potential in Modern:

I'd rather play 4 Ranger-Captain of Eos and only 3 Fervent Champion because man, does Fervent Champion suck without equipment. Fervent Champion's first strike is shockingly good, and so is his haste, but the first strike is only really apparent when he's equipped. I have slightly more 1-drops than Ranger-Captains so Ranger-Captains don't run out of stuff to search for that fast.

I'm keeping the Silence semi-lock a la Bant Soulherder lists and their ability to recur Force of Negation or Path to Exile every turn.

The sideboard is provisional, and I haven't tested it yet. Wrecking Ball is me crossing my fingers that a LD plan might work against Tron and Valakut variants--maybe I should have 2 or more in the board or add supplemental LD?

@lectrys

Wrecking Ball is too slow to be good against Tron. Also, spending an entire turn destroying a land does nothing, especially if it’s after they have assembled Tron already. You should just play Crumble to Dust or that one-mana Moon card, or Damping Sphere.

On another note, I finally thought of an infinite combo-kill with Sunforger. Although I don’t think it would make the deck better than just sticking to the disruptive midrange gameplan, as there are too many necessary pieces, but perhaps the deck could be built different to suit the combo better.

If you have a manamorphose, and you enchant yourself with Wheel of Sun and Moon, with Sunforger + Champion on the bf, you can draw your entire deck. From there, I’m sure you can find a way to win that turn, with Grapeshot, Lightning Storm, etc.

Here's my take, I have slightly less disruption to make room for a combo finish.

@Magik0722

So how exactly does your combo finish?

I guess with a huge Fists of Flame after you drew all the cards. But IMHO it's a little fragile.

Mistveil Plains needs two white permanents to work, do we have enough of them?

Sure heres how it goes down.
For when you have champion and forger in play:

if you can make WWR heres what you get with forger
first you get desperate ritual and get WRRR
then you get manamorphose to filter and get WWRR
then you get repeated reverberations and have RW
then you get manamorphose and get 2 copies to draw 3 and get RRRWWW
then you get 3 activations to get another reverbations if you have it and another manamorphose to increase your mana even more, then you can get boros charm to give him double strike and then use fist of flames on it to give it trample and alot of attack. Usually ends up being a 13/1 with double strike and trample.

if you only have RW available but can get up to WWR you can first get chance for glory and attempt the combo above on the following turn.
if its really late into the game you can get reverberations into another reverberations then cast a boros charm to get 7 copies doing 4 damage each.

Quote from Magik0722 »

Sure heres how it goes down.
For when you have champion and forger in play:

if you can make WWR heres what you get with forger
first you get desperate ritual and get WRRR
then you get manamorphose to filter and get WWRR
then you get repeated reverberations and have RW
then you get manamorphose and get 2 copies to draw 3 and get RRRWWW
then you get 3 activations to get another reverbations if you have it and another manamorphose to increase your mana even more, then you can get boros charm to give him double strike and then use fist of flames on it to give it trample and alot of attack. Usually ends up being a 13/1 with double strike and trample.

if you only have RW available but can get up to WWR you can first get chance for glory and attempt the combo above on the following turn.
if its really late into the game you can get reverberations into another reverberations then cast a boros charm to get 7 copies doing 4 damage each.

Am I missing something here? You have to let the stack clear to re-equip the Sunforger, since equip is sorcery speed. So what exactly is on the stack when you use Sunforger to cast Reverberate? After the first Manamorphose, the stack should be empty with RRWW in your mana pool.

Then, you re-equip Sunforger, activate the ability and unattach Sunforger to get Reverberate… but there's nothing on the stack for Reverberate to target. Manamorphose should have already resolved.

Repeated Reverberation is worded differently then simple reverberate. Repeated Reverberation doesnt target it simply copies the next spell you cast. It has to be worded like this since it also copies planeswalkers abilities, not that I'm using the card for that reason.

I agree with @Rendroc that the lack of card filtering in the build is awkward sometimes. Flooding especially seems to be a problem, and I often find myself lacking gas against decks with heavy interaction. I think Seasoned Pyromancer is a very attractive card for this build, and I would include it no questions asked if I could make space for Lingering Souls, or if we had other cards that could be binned for value. For now, i'll be testing a copy of Nahiri, the Harbinger in the mainboard, as I think its just a generally strong card that can answer a lot of things, and the repeatable value planeswalkers bring to the table is always useful.

I've also elected to take a stab at @Lectrys ' approach to the Ranger-Captain package, but am still not sure about the numbers on Giver. I think in this configuration Grim Lavamancer belongs mainboard however. Here's what ill be taking to cockatrice tonight;



Sideboard is getting there, but still shaky. I've moved Settle the Wreckage to the board for now, as its less relevant in the most common matchups at the moment, but this could be a mistake. Boil and Sword of Light and Shadow are the real all stars here

The problem with running 4 Captains, is that it’s a very expensive card and it’s ability is not always that useful. One of the best things about Fervent Champion is that you can just jam a sword on turn 3 and swing in with it.

I am aware that it is a very underwhelming creature on it’s own, so I’ve made yet ANOTHER list, which trims the Champions, and focuses on individually good cards and value.



The least is veering closer to just pure Mardu Midrange, but I think Sunforger can actually be good enough to include in Mardu Midrange, since it is a value engine itself, in addition to being a tutor.

I’m still uncertain of the numbers, but this is the best I could think of for now. Unsure about the Boros Charm, Settle and Mardu Charm maindeck, and also unsure about some sideboard cards.

After some first tests against Selesnya blade, elves and RG Breach, I find the list I posted loses the top deck mode too often.
Usually it happens that the discard spells do their job but then opponent's top decks were better than mine.
So I'll add the 4 copies of Manamorphose, to try to refill the hand, and some strong finisher.
Any ideas? How are your tests going?

4 Captain plan was kind of a bust. He's a little too slow to want in multiples, I'll be going back down to 3, and back up to 4 Champions. I'll admit, the champion struggles without equipment but, he really shines on good draws. Fervent Champion into t2 Stoneforge Mystic is such a flexible and powerful line. I think I'll be back to the playset for the time being. I've been testing against Jund, Burn, Tron, and other Stoneblade decks, as thats the bulk of the meta right now. So far, Mardu is especially strong against other Stoneblade lists in my experience, as maindeck Kolaghan's Command and Abrade often scoop up the game from the get go if not played around. Fry is coming in a lot against UW. Tron is rough, but fast hands can definitely beat it. Rushing to assemble the combo and lock them out of the game is often the best line, but turn 3 Karn Liberated is hard to answer.

I think the deck's biggest issue right now is hand filtering and card advantage. Manamorphose allows us to bury other midrange decks in card advantage if Forger+Champion comes online, but with our spell base spread pretty thin and hand disruption going 1 for 1, the deck struggles off the top, as @lordlukas mentioned. Some slots probably need to be dedicated to Nahiri, the Harbinger, Seasoned Pyromancer, or another source of hand fixing that doesnt create card disadvantage. Flooding especially cripples the deck, as it needs its key pieces to get going. I've been leaning more and more on Kolaghan's Command as I keep playing, the card is just gas. Setting up a guaranteed 2 for 1 is very powerful, and I think it will be taking more than 1 slot in my mainboard.

Also, while Black with early hand disruption seems to be going well, I wanted to step back for a moment and take a look at other third colors, just in case.
Blue seems to be the only real alternative, but i've compiled a small list of the most relevant Sunforger targets in blue, and will be trying to cobble together a Jeskai list later out of curiosity. There are some powerful cards here, and they do answer some of the issues that Mardu has, though of course they present their own.

• Dovin's Veto
  
• Electrolyze
  
• Absorb
  
• Ojutai's Command
  
• Izzet Charm
  
• Render Silent

Blue in general could also open up other possibilities, and i've been eyeing The Royal Scions since they were spoiled. For now its just thoughts and musings, will post again if it goes anywhere.

Quote from lordlukas »

After some first tests against Selesnya blade, elves and RG Breach, I find the list I posted loses the top deck mode too often.
Usually it happens that the discard spells do their job but then opponent's top decks were better than mine.
So I'll add the 4 copies of Manamorphose, to try to refill the hand, and some strong finisher.
Any ideas? How are your tests going?

Adding Manamorphose is only going to refill your hand if you have the Sunforger + Champion combo going, which is NOT most of the time. That’s why I do not recommend the Morphose plan. THere are other safer ways to get value. Confidant and Arcanist are value engines on their own.