THIS IS NOT A COMBO. Ideas Unbound is a terrible source of Card Disadvantage.
While I agree, we are a weird control deck, since if we don't find and resolve As Foretold fast we don't have access to our sweepers and most of our card advantage.
Finding As Foretold in time is crucial, and worth some card disadvantage in exchange for cheap selection (we can easily overcome it once we find As Foretold and can start casting Visions/Living End).
Helping flip Azcanta is also a nice upside, and with Mission Briefing coming we can get some value out of discarded cards as well.
That said, I do agree Ideas Unbound is likely not good enough for our deck.
My main "No" is that it's a sorcery, I would definitely try it if it was an instant. Tapping out early for this seems pretty tough, and later when we can still hold counters it loses a lot of appeal. Instant speed feels like a must for the Ub build of the deck.
As a sidenote to you BloodyRabbit, you might want to reconsider how you post. You always come out very aggresive and arrogant, and it certainly takes some effort (at least for me) to filter that and actually get to the content of your post. Take it or leave it, just wanted to mention it since sometimes it's an online thing where you don't realize how your posts read for others.
This is a fair evaluation of the card. Digging 3 deep on turn 2 in this building could be too slow. Of course, I was looking at it to supplement the remands we currently have. Depending on the situation, I’d rather have remand up than cast ideas unbound. However, in some instances with really aggressive aggro decks, like hollow one and affinity, maybe even humans, elves, merfolk, spirits, resetting the board with living end can be dire. I’ve tested 3 and it’s been okay.
And about rabbit...don’t get your panties in a knot man. It’s just a question. I’ve seen some articles on ideas unbound on the web and thought it could be strong here. No need to blow an artery and stroke out on your keyboard every time someone posts something you don’t agree with.
Saying this card is retarded because of card disadvantage is a feeble argument. One card to dig/loot/fix 3 cards isn’t something to shake it and may be worth a look.
Ok, saying things like "that's card disadvantage" or "we are a control deck" are not arguments or explanations for nothing.
Card disadvantage is like saying "that card dies to bolt". Sure, you might not like that aspect of it, but there are a ton of "card disadvantage" things worth it. Same with "Tolaria west is a land". That's just mentioning aspects of a card you might value, some others might value less.
I can say but Tolaria West comes in tapped! and that doesn't bring anything to the discussion by itself.
And claiming "we are a control deck" as an explanation is even worse, since that's just a subjective classification, even worse in our case where we don't even have a consensus on the 60 (let alone 75) "stock" decklist. Control can be tap-out style, heavier on removal, with a combo kill, with more sweepers, more planeswalkers, A TON of different things. And our deck's style of control is particularly tricky, since as I mentioned, we kind of don't work without As Foretold. We can win even without the graveyard, but games we don't draw As Foretold we are very far from a competitive deck. So that puts some combo elements in our instant speed control style.
Who are you trying to convince that someone saying "I enjoy playing this card, why not?" is disrespectful? It might not bring much to the thread, sure, but it's not disrespectful to anybody, don't be an ********. As I said, just ignore those posts and move on if they trigger you that much, but man you have ego issues if you feel disrespected by someone slightly derailing the conversation from your preferred topic.
And since this is already a confrontational post, I don't accept your "rule #1" at all. Spirits was considered by a ton of people a worse humans, and it has been putting up more and more results. Merfolk can be considered a worse spirits/humans, and plenty of people enjoy it and play competitively with it.
Rules like that are just lazy shortcuts to not actually analyze things. Some people love those, just stating "universal truths" as if discussion should end there because they said it.
That said, I do like your content after being "filtered" since I agree that control is the way to play this deck. I won't be playing it for a while since my store is overrun with Spirits and that is just not fun, but would love to hear how it is working for the rest of you.
Hey everyone, I've finally got the money to buy most of what I want for this deck, the only card not in my possession right now is Engineered Explosives.
I have a few questions for the people currently piloting.
Of what I know of the locals I'll be playing at there are several UW Control players and one or two spirits players. Other decks I recall seeing are burn and humans.
What do you guys think is our best bet in side for the spirits deck?
Do you think the deck can support Azcanta or do you think that it's too greedy to play with this deck instead of cycling/holding up counter?
It seems like people are split on having serum visions, I've mostly played with it in the past but just recently I tried without and it felt fine, what are your opinions?
What do you guys think about the landbase with fetches and shocks vs the landbase without? What do you think are the benefits of either? I suppose it would be easier to have Fatal Push in the main? What about Thoughtseize?
Interesting, initially I was playing with a white splash for path back when I bought the core of the deck, if i feel like my locals is too problematic towards black I'll try it out.
Modern is tonight and if no one has an E.E. for trade I'll be ordering it right after so I should have it for next week.
You were definitely right, 21 lands feels a lot better. I went down one wraith and up one riverwinder.
I don't necessarily expect to do great today as some of my sideboard cards and my 4th LE didn't arrive on time so I might be little troubled g2 and 3, and this is only the second locals I've played since returning to the game after a long break so we'll see how it goes. I'll also be able to survey what exactly I'll need sideboard which will be nice.
Also I definitely understand what you mean about burn, I was practicing against it yesterday and it's absolute hell even with two Brutality lmao.
------EDIT:
So I went to modern night and got matched against two spirits players got 2-0ed by one and lost a VERY close g3 to a 5 in a row land draw late game.
So question about your UW variant, why specifically Glassdust? It seems kinda underwhelming, I feel like the utility of architects is super useful.
The second is a way to reuse Living End from GY with As Foretold (if I'm correct on ruling on this), a way to filter draw / fill GY, reuse Toolbox cards or good cards such as Remand or a late Cryptic (6 mana is huge, I know)
I have been wanting to tinker with mausoleum secrets so this is the list I have come up with.
Next month I'mma order some Deaths Shadows and Secrets to try out that build, been really interested in it since I saw someone try it on here. I have all the cards for the white splash but will be lending it to my friend next Modern night and piloting something else that week.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UB LE As Foretold UR ElectroBalance U Merfolk
Standard GB Midrange WB Cruel Citadel
This iteration of the deck is probably the best since I started playing it. White mana conflicts a bit with Bojuka Bog and the impossibility of suspending Living End from the hand (which comes handly in Midrange mus, according to my previous testing) but Path and white removals from the sideboard have been astonishingly good for me. I just have to find something to replace Relic/Surgical from the board, given that I cannot use Spellbomb anymore.
I would 100% play this again.
Great to hear you have been enjoying and having success with the deck, do you think with the stalling ability of your deck (due to path to exile) that you could afford to play drift of phantasms as a tutor for as foretold?
The second is a way to reuse Living End from GY with As Foretold (if I'm correct on ruling on this), a way to filter draw / fill GY, reuse Toolbox cards or good cards such as Remand or a late Cryptic (6 mana is huge, I know)
I've been off testing other jank, but came back to this deck because of Mission Briefing, has anyone been testing it?
I played this deck on the side at my FNM and Mausoleum secrets is a great card for searching up a living end but death shadows seem real awkward. Just thought I give you my update.
I want to keep this post as active as possible so I'm posted my version of this deck. The side board is a work in progress but I think I have a solid list for the UB variant. Feel free to post any suggestions! Let's keep this post alive! The reason why I add 2 board wipes in the side is because my meta is super heavy creature based.
Mission Briefing main board because I really like the card. Negate is in the main just because I like counter-spells. It could be replaced. You think I should run spell snare in that spot instead? The land thing I"m still experimenting with. I suppose if I went with fast lands and the rivers, what would I cut?
Has anyone tested Mausoleum Secrets in the UB version?
I haven't been playing the deck, but wondered if a copy in place of the 4th living end would be good. It can tutor Living End so it won't hurt having less copies (we don't really need to cast Living End more than twice usually), and having the flexibility to tutor for Push, brutality or other tools we might bring (surgical extraction maybe?) as well as Living End sounds attractive. It is also instant speed so it plays well with the rest of the deck.
Mission Briefing seems potentially playable, digging two searching for AF is nice, we can recast used countermagic and with AF out we can even recast AV (a bit win-more here, I agree). Maybe as a 1-2 of, wouldn't know what to cut though. Probably better if we were playing Serum Visions or Opt as well to help dig for As Foretold or Living End.
I'm giving a try to your list, @BloodyRabbit_01 :)The PtE approach is just what I felt that this deck needed. And I have to say that the manabase seems pretty smooth and well shaped, but I don't see the main closed yet. Personally, I don't like the Glassdusk Hulk, I've never been advocate of playing Architects of Will in the UB version, and the Hulk is even weaker. It might look a bit extreme, but I'd rather play the second Vendilion in main and probably going up for the second (or third) Nimble Obstructionist. Both can always be used as an early threat (pressure) and/or chump-block big creatures until you stabilize.
Now that we are playing PtE I would probably squeeze 1-2 Mission Briefing in the main (not tested yet), and I'm not still sure about the second EE, I will have a better opinion on that after I run some leagues. Cards I've been thinking about, aligned with the PtE-Oust philosophy and in a Dredge meta (not necessarily complementary), are Settle the Wreckage and Hallowed Burial (one main, one side). Also, and it might look radical and fool, 1-of Peer Through Depths main.
For me, these are the sideboard cards I would always sleeve before leaving home. As you said, there still room for improvement this aspect of the deck:
2 Dispel
2-3 Negate
2 Oust (seems strictly better than Condemn, but I still want more instant speed answers or a mass removal)
2-3 Timely Reinforcement (I need to face Burn more, 3 copies looks like overkill, and being at sorcery speed doesn't appeal to me much. We are supposed to be an instant speed deck (control) with an "oops, I win" button.)
2 Celestial Purge
1-2 Tormod’s Crypt (being able to tutor it with Tolaris is exactly what I want)
What do you think about going this more control-ish way?
I'll let you know how I'm doing once I gather some more inputs and data from my games.
The optimal configuration would be four between Vendilion and Obstructionist between main and side. I only have three spots, so I go with two Cliques that are more valuable in postboard games. In g1, even if you’re facing a tough matchup, you plan to win by conboing out most of the time. Postboard, in 50% of the matches I go full Control route and only keep 1-2 Living Ends, hardcasting stuff while I remove their threats. So, it would be useful playing more.
Problem: you cannot afford to cut early cyclers for this. Cyclers convert themselves into lands, and we are a 21 Lands Control. Eleven cc1 cantrips (cyclers) is already on the low side, so it’s totally impossible to go down another slot. Glassdusk, by the way, is by no mean a bad creature: I won plenty of game thanks to having two of them in play alongside a pair of Curators, then the turn after I transmute for Explosives (or hardcasting another Hulk) and swinging for 16 with the opponent impossibilitate to block (cuz also flying is kind of an evasive skill). I would test them more, if I were you.
Settle the Wreckage and similar are unplayable here, unless we #severely# reconfigurate the manabase. Double white IS an issue. Try to compare this deck to UW Control, and you’ll find out by yourself. Engineered Explosives is too strong, on thand other hand, to shave one copy of it. The ability to cast the first in the early game, then transmute for another in the mid late is the reason why it is so strong in this deck. We can even cast it for three, thanks to Bojuka Bog. I would play a third before going back to one. It happens often that we use a Living End, the opponent builds another army, and we want mass removal that doesn’t provide him any creature from the grave. Well, there we are.
Yeah, I know about the early cyclers being converted into lands. Maybe the right number is 22 lands and we can think about making more consistent to hit the double white on turn 4-5. And that´s exactly my concern about EE, you clear the board, survive few turns, and then you go AF+LE, getting back their creatures. This is why I said 1 Settle the Wreckage + 1 Hallowed Burial (I do like Oust btw). For now, I´ll go with 1 EE + 1 Tormod´s Crypt MD.
Coming back to creature´s discussion, you are probably right with the Hulk (Street Wraith is nearly unplayable in this iteration of deck in my opinion), but I just feel it too weak. It happened to me before, while playing UB with Architects, I was always shaving up copies of the card (after few matches) on Nimble/Vendilion´s favour, in a more control-ish way.
I spent my posts in the last two pages talking about it. I don’t want to say the same thing all over again. In short: it’s a graveyard-using Spell in a deck against whom the opponent is going to sb a lot of graveyard hate. Other than that, it seems very winmore.
I´m just saying about playing 1-of maindeck, which means that it can be sided out for G2 and G3. Briefing´s interaction with PtE early game, and LE or AV in the lategame with As Foretold out looks pretty neat rather than just like a "winmore". Worths my testing at least, it might happen that I will discard it after few games. I´m aware about your comments on previous pages of the thread, we just have different opinions on the card, and that´s completely fine. You took an UW approach that nobody else "thought" about, or I should say, you put it into paper and gave us some inputs. It´s the same kind of thing for me here.
Timely is meant for Burn, Dredge and Jeskai variants. The first is our worse matchup, and needs to be fixed cause it’s kinda popular atm, while it’s also extremely useful against the other two for obvious reasons. Most of the time, the only way you lose is with the opponent throwing a bunch of Burn spells at you (Dredge fits into this) and you need to have a proactive answer, other than reactive cards such as counterspells, that can put you in difficult spots if you’re tight on mana.
Yeah, Burn is a thing. But in Modern, trying to improve the worst matchup (I´m not saying improving bad matchups, just the ones nearly unwinnable), is not where I want to go while playing a deck like this. I´m not saying to give up, just that 3 copies seems excessive in my eyes, and those slot(s) could be used on a different way.
Thanks for your inputs and keep up the good work. I find this deck incredibly fun to play!
I'm a long-time Jund LE player who is fed up in this meta. UW control is a horrible matchup because the deck usually folds to counterspells and if you can get through them (early instant cascade followed up by sorcery cascade, typically), you then have to face Terminus. Humans wrecks the deck because of maindeck Thalia and Meddling Mage. Deck can't handle KCI. And with so many other graveyard decks, the hate is real.
I've been looking at AF/LE and loving it. Originally I didn't like the deck because I didn't think it did the combo or control well enough to justify everything being weaker, but it seems well poised right now.
What do people think of a maindeck spell snare or two? Getting down As Foretold feels critical in the control matchup, so being able to do it on T4 with counter backup instead of T5 could be crucial. Snare stops logic knot, remand, and mana leak, which is probably all UW will do on their T3 (if you're on the play), although it won't stop CC if they're on the play. Snare also seems to have game against a lot of other decks as well (notoriously not traditional living end, hah)
I also have mixed feelings with the 3 copies of Field of Ruin MD, we are definitely not UW Control, and it does hurt here. Maybe the fourth copy of Seachrome Coast? I didn't run the numbers, but I guess it should be fine(?). However, Cryptic Command turn 4... For sure, I prefer 2 Field of Ruin + 1 Ghost Quarter with the Surgicals, but still grey mana.
@Bloody:
What about playing 3 Living Ends?
No issues with casting/finding AF+LE? This is one of the hot takes of the thread recently (didn't dig into the last pages, but I'm not sure if it was you or someone else who was against this approach).
Because, even though it doesn’t block our LE, it’s still the worse Grave hate we can play. Removing the graveyard is simply better than keeping it in check, and you can easily deal with a Cage, while removed cards are... removed, in fact.
Yes, that's why I like to maindeck a copy of Tormod's Crypt along with Bojuka Bog. However, I'm gonna try the Cages and see how it goes.
I cut one LE only if I play a third sweeper maindeck. See my last post (and list). Less then 6 mass removals in this metagame is crazy, imho. Too many creatures to take care of, playing removal-less is no longer an option.
I'm going up one EE more, and double Nimble Obstructionist. No Vendilion, Timely and Hallowed for 2x Cages and 2x Blessed Alliance in SB.
If you’re struck with Mono U or UB, I highly suggest playing three copies of it. It’s an answer to many bad things that could happen to you, like Ravager from Affinity or Thalia on turn two from Humans (hoping they don’t have Cavern), Baral from Storm or Confidant from Jund on curve. There is no space in the UW version, though, mostly because Path does a similar job, but better in most of the cases.
That makes sense. What's your play pattern against UW control G1? Just wait until you have 5 mana to get down as foretold and hope they don't have two counters? Part of the problem is they're going to be hitting land drops more consistently than you so they'll typically have more time to draw a second counterspell.
Unrelated question - the deck is playing white, so why none of the ultra-powerful traditional white sideboard options like Stony Silence, Leyline?
Thanks, I'm finding this discussion really helpful!
Can you explain why Seachrome Coast over Glacial Fortress or more Hallowed Fountains? Unlike traditional LE, flipping on exactly T3 with 3+ creatures in the yard doesn't seem like our main gameplan. In the playtesting I've done so far, having late tap lands has generally felt worse than early taplands because I may want the untap land to cast multiple spells in a turn (especially if I don't have AF out yet).
Thanks, I'm finding this discussion really helpful!
Can you explain why Seachrome Coast over Glacial Fortress or more Hallowed Fountains? Unlike traditional LE, flipping on exactly T3 with 3+ creatures in the yard doesn't seem like our main gameplan. In the playtesting I've done so far, having late tap lands has generally felt worse than early taplands because I may want the untap land to cast multiple spells in a turn (especially if I don't have AF out yet).
I really like being able to suspend turn 1 or start the cycling turn 1. With Fortress you'll also have hands with Fortress and a colorless land that'll set you behind a turn.
All true, but it's a tradeoff between the land always being tapped turns 4+ versus always being tapped T1 and sometimes tapped T2 and rarely tapped T3. Why are the early plays more critical when we're not as frequently setting up for a T3 flip? Is suspending AV on T1 right when you have As Foretold in your hand and don't plan on casting LE off your As Foretold T3?
@BloodyRabbit So I"m thinking about getting into the White/Blue Version of yours. I'm going to be using your list. Can you explain why the 2 Cliques and 1 nimble? is that a personal choice or do you think that Cliques are better?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This is a fair evaluation of the card. Digging 3 deep on turn 2 in this building could be too slow. Of course, I was looking at it to supplement the remands we currently have. Depending on the situation, I’d rather have remand up than cast ideas unbound. However, in some instances with really aggressive aggro decks, like hollow one and affinity, maybe even humans, elves, merfolk, spirits, resetting the board with living end can be dire. I’ve tested 3 and it’s been okay.
And about rabbit...don’t get your panties in a knot man. It’s just a question. I’ve seen some articles on ideas unbound on the web and thought it could be strong here. No need to blow an artery and stroke out on your keyboard every time someone posts something you don’t agree with.
Saying this card is retarded because of card disadvantage is a feeble argument. One card to dig/loot/fix 3 cards isn’t something to shake it and may be worth a look.
Card disadvantage is like saying "that card dies to bolt". Sure, you might not like that aspect of it, but there are a ton of "card disadvantage" things worth it. Same with "Tolaria west is a land". That's just mentioning aspects of a card you might value, some others might value less.
I can say but Tolaria West comes in tapped! and that doesn't bring anything to the discussion by itself.
And claiming "we are a control deck" as an explanation is even worse, since that's just a subjective classification, even worse in our case where we don't even have a consensus on the 60 (let alone 75) "stock" decklist. Control can be tap-out style, heavier on removal, with a combo kill, with more sweepers, more planeswalkers, A TON of different things. And our deck's style of control is particularly tricky, since as I mentioned, we kind of don't work without As Foretold. We can win even without the graveyard, but games we don't draw As Foretold we are very far from a competitive deck. So that puts some combo elements in our instant speed control style.
Who are you trying to convince that someone saying "I enjoy playing this card, why not?" is disrespectful? It might not bring much to the thread, sure, but it's not disrespectful to anybody, don't be an ********. As I said, just ignore those posts and move on if they trigger you that much, but man you have ego issues if you feel disrespected by someone slightly derailing the conversation from your preferred topic.
And since this is already a confrontational post, I don't accept your "rule #1" at all. Spirits was considered by a ton of people a worse humans, and it has been putting up more and more results. Merfolk can be considered a worse spirits/humans, and plenty of people enjoy it and play competitively with it.
Rules like that are just lazy shortcuts to not actually analyze things. Some people love those, just stating "universal truths" as if discussion should end there because they said it.
That said, I do like your content after being "filtered" since I agree that control is the way to play this deck. I won't be playing it for a while since my store is overrun with Spirits and that is just not fun, but would love to hear how it is working for the rest of you.
I'm sure a bunch of stuff won't end up making the cut but the various synergies are great fun
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Street Wraith
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Death's Shadow
4 Remand
3 Mission Briefing
3 Mausoleum Secrets
1 Countersquall
1 Necrotic Wound
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Collective Brutality
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Polluted Delta
4 Watery Grave
3 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Countersquall
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Fulminator Mage
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Darkness
1 Extirpate
1 Necrotic Wound
I have a few questions for the people currently piloting.
Of what I know of the locals I'll be playing at there are several UW Control players and one or two spirits players. Other decks I recall seeing are burn and humans.
What do you guys think is our best bet in side for the spirits deck?
Do you think the deck can support Azcanta or do you think that it's too greedy to play with this deck instead of cycling/holding up counter?
It seems like people are split on having serum visions, I've mostly played with it in the past but just recently I tried without and it felt fine, what are your opinions?
What do you guys think about the landbase with fetches and shocks vs the landbase without? What do you think are the benefits of either? I suppose it would be easier to have Fatal Push in the main? What about Thoughtseize?
This is my current list for this week.
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Architects of Will
4 Curator of Mysteries
3 Street Wraith
3 Striped Riverwinder
Spells (22)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Mana Leak
4 Remand
1 Disallow
1 Supreme Will
3 Cryptic Command
4 As Foretold
Lands (20)
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
3 River of Tears
1 Sunken Ruins
3 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dispel
2 Fatal Push
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Dismember
1 Nimble Obstructionist
Any input on things I should change? I'll be attempting to get an engineered explosives whenever I get my paycheck later this month.
Do you think there's any room for Chalice in the 75? I see some people run it.
Thanks.
UB LE As Foretold
UR ElectroBalance
U Merfolk
Standard
GB Midrange
WB Cruel Citadel
Modern is tonight and if no one has an E.E. for trade I'll be ordering it right after so I should have it for next week.
You were definitely right, 21 lands feels a lot better. I went down one wraith and up one riverwinder.
I don't necessarily expect to do great today as some of my sideboard cards and my 4th LE didn't arrive on time so I might be little troubled g2 and 3, and this is only the second locals I've played since returning to the game after a long break so we'll see how it goes. I'll also be able to survey what exactly I'll need sideboard which will be nice.
Also I definitely understand what you mean about burn, I was practicing against it yesterday and it's absolute hell even with two Brutality lmao.
------EDIT:
So I went to modern night and got matched against two spirits players
So question about your UW variant, why specifically Glassdust? It seems kinda underwhelming, I feel like the utility of architects is super useful.
UB LE As Foretold
UR ElectroBalance
U Merfolk
Standard
GB Midrange
WB Cruel Citadel
I tried a UW version once but I failed miserably. I will give a try to your list, thanks for the sugestion.
I have been wanting to tinker with mausoleum secrets so this is the list I have come up with.
2 Architects of Will
4 Curator of Mysteries
3 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
Enchantment (4)
4 As Foretold
Instant (11)
3 Cryptic Command
1 Disallow
2 Mausoleum Secrets
4 Remand
1 Spell Pierce
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
Land (20)
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
6 Island
1 Sunken Ruins
3 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Collective Brutality
2 Dismember
2 Dispel
1 Echoing Truth
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
UB LE As Foretold
UR ElectroBalance
U Merfolk
Standard
GB Midrange
WB Cruel Citadel
Great to hear you have been enjoying and having success with the deck, do you think with the stalling ability of your deck (due to path to exile) that you could afford to play drift of phantasms as a tutor for as foretold?
I've been off testing other jank, but came back to this deck because of Mission Briefing, has anyone been testing it?
I want to keep this post as active as possible so I'm posted my version of this deck. The side board is a work in progress but I think I have a solid list for the UB variant. Feel free to post any suggestions! Let's keep this post alive! The reason why I add 2 board wipes in the side is because my meta is super heavy creature based.
4 Street Wraith
4 Striped Riverwinder
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
4 As Foretold
3 Field of Ruin
7 Island
4 Tolaria West
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Watery Grave
2 Mission Briefing
2 Negate
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Spell Pierce
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Negate
3 Collective Brutality
2 Duress
2 Swan Song
1 Damnation
1 Yahenni's Expertise
I haven't been playing the deck, but wondered if a copy in place of the 4th living end would be good. It can tutor Living End so it won't hurt having less copies (we don't really need to cast Living End more than twice usually), and having the flexibility to tutor for Push, brutality or other tools we might bring (surgical extraction maybe?) as well as Living End sounds attractive. It is also instant speed so it plays well with the rest of the deck.
Mission Briefing seems potentially playable, digging two searching for AF is nice, we can recast used countermagic and with AF out we can even recast AV (a bit win-more here, I agree). Maybe as a 1-2 of, wouldn't know what to cut though. Probably better if we were playing Serum Visions or Opt as well to help dig for As Foretold or Living End.
I'm giving a try to your list, @BloodyRabbit_01 :)The PtE approach is just what I felt that this deck needed. And I have to say that the manabase seems pretty smooth and well shaped, but I don't see the main closed yet. Personally, I don't like the Glassdusk Hulk, I've never been advocate of playing Architects of Will in the UB version, and the Hulk is even weaker. It might look a bit extreme, but I'd rather play the second Vendilion in main and probably going up for the second (or third) Nimble Obstructionist. Both can always be used as an early threat (pressure) and/or chump-block big creatures until you stabilize.
Now that we are playing PtE I would probably squeeze 1-2 Mission Briefing in the main (not tested yet), and I'm not still sure about the second EE, I will have a better opinion on that after I run some leagues. Cards I've been thinking about, aligned with the PtE-Oust philosophy and in a Dredge meta (not necessarily complementary), are Settle the Wreckage and Hallowed Burial (one main, one side). Also, and it might look radical and fool, 1-of Peer Through Depths main.
For me, these are the sideboard cards I would always sleeve before leaving home. As you said, there still room for improvement this aspect of the deck:
2 Dispel
2-3 Negate
2 Oust (seems strictly better than Condemn, but I still want more instant speed answers or a mass removal)
2-3 Timely Reinforcement (I need to face Burn more, 3 copies looks like overkill, and being at sorcery speed doesn't appeal to me much. We are supposed to be an instant speed deck (control) with an "oops, I win" button.)
2 Celestial Purge
1-2 Tormod’s Crypt (being able to tutor it with Tolaris is exactly what I want)
What do you think about going this more control-ish way?
I'll let you know how I'm doing once I gather some more inputs and data from my games.
Cheers!
Yeah, I know about the early cyclers being converted into lands. Maybe the right number is 22 lands and we can think about making more consistent to hit the double white on turn 4-5. And that´s exactly my concern about EE, you clear the board, survive few turns, and then you go AF+LE, getting back their creatures. This is why I said 1 Settle the Wreckage + 1 Hallowed Burial (I do like Oust btw). For now, I´ll go with 1 EE + 1 Tormod´s Crypt MD.
Coming back to creature´s discussion, you are probably right with the Hulk (Street Wraith is nearly unplayable in this iteration of deck in my opinion), but I just feel it too weak. It happened to me before, while playing UB with Architects, I was always shaving up copies of the card (after few matches) on Nimble/Vendilion´s favour, in a more control-ish way.
I´m just saying about playing 1-of maindeck, which means that it can be sided out for G2 and G3. Briefing´s interaction with PtE early game, and LE or AV in the lategame with As Foretold out looks pretty neat rather than just like a "winmore". Worths my testing at least, it might happen that I will discard it after few games. I´m aware about your comments on previous pages of the thread, we just have different opinions on the card, and that´s completely fine. You took an UW approach that nobody else "thought" about, or I should say, you put it into paper and gave us some inputs. It´s the same kind of thing for me here.
Yeah, Burn is a thing. But in Modern, trying to improve the worst matchup (I´m not saying improving bad matchups, just the ones nearly unwinnable), is not where I want to go while playing a deck like this. I´m not saying to give up, just that 3 copies seems excessive in my eyes, and those slot(s) could be used on a different way.
Thanks for your inputs
Cheers!
Can you go over how your UW version fares against some of the top decks in modern? I'm thinking about giving it a try this weekend.
I've been looking at AF/LE and loving it. Originally I didn't like the deck because I didn't think it did the combo or control well enough to justify everything being weaker, but it seems well poised right now.
What do people think of a maindeck spell snare or two? Getting down As Foretold feels critical in the control matchup, so being able to do it on T4 with counter backup instead of T5 could be crucial. Snare stops logic knot, remand, and mana leak, which is probably all UW will do on their T3 (if you're on the play), although it won't stop CC if they're on the play. Snare also seems to have game against a lot of other decks as well (notoriously not traditional living end, hah)
3 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
4 Islands
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Tolaria West
Creatures (13)
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
3 Glassdust Hulk
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
4 As Foretold
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Dispel
3 Negate
2 Oust
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Hallowed Burial
1 Timely Reinforcement
2 Celestial Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
I'll probably add more Blessed Alliance to the SB and 2 copies of Grafdigger's Cage as GY hate along with the Surgicals.
I also have mixed feelings with the 3 copies of Field of Ruin MD, we are definitely not UW Control, and it does hurt here. Maybe the fourth copy of Seachrome Coast? I didn't run the numbers, but I guess it should be fine(?). However, Cryptic Command turn 4... For sure, I prefer 2 Field of Ruin + 1 Ghost Quarter with the Surgicals, but still grey mana.
About Nimble Obstructionist, I still don't know if I want to go up to 2 MD or going double Vendilion Clique.
@Bloody:
What about playing 3 Living Ends?
No issues with casting/finding AF+LE? This is one of the hot takes of the thread recently (didn't dig into the last pages, but I'm not sure if it was you or someone else who was against this approach).
Yes, that's why I like to maindeck a copy of Tormod's Crypt along with Bojuka Bog. However, I'm gonna try the Cages and see how it goes.
I'm going up one EE more, and double Nimble Obstructionist. No Vendilion, Timely and Hallowed for 2x Cages and 2x Blessed Alliance in SB.
2 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
4 Island
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Tolaria West
Creatures (13)
4 Curator of Mysteries
4 Striped Riverwinder
3 Glassdust Hulk
2 Nimble Obstructionist
4 Remand
4 Cryptic Command
4 As Foretold
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Living End
4 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Dispel
3 Negate
2 Oust
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Celestial Purge
2 Surgical Extraction
That makes sense. What's your play pattern against UW control G1? Just wait until you have 5 mana to get down as foretold and hope they don't have two counters? Part of the problem is they're going to be hitting land drops more consistently than you so they'll typically have more time to draw a second counterspell.
Unrelated question - the deck is playing white, so why none of the ultra-powerful traditional white sideboard options like Stony Silence, Leyline?
Can you explain why Seachrome Coast over Glacial Fortress or more Hallowed Fountains? Unlike traditional LE, flipping on exactly T3 with 3+ creatures in the yard doesn't seem like our main gameplan. In the playtesting I've done so far, having late tap lands has generally felt worse than early taplands because I may want the untap land to cast multiple spells in a turn (especially if I don't have AF out yet).
I really like being able to suspend turn 1 or start the cycling turn 1. With Fortress you'll also have hands with Fortress and a colorless land that'll set you behind a turn.