This is where I'm at in this archetype. I like the Token/control roll the deck can play. It goes wide and makes targeted removal useless which makes creatures far more viable in the sideboard games. I could easily see moving the Weathered Wayfarers to the sideboard and playing less creatures main. A BIG LESSON I"VE LEARNED IS CREATURES ARE MUCH BETTER FOR US IN THE SIDEBOARD GAMES... they stick around longer. I'm not rushing to get a Nythos down, but there are times where the extra mana can be helpful and I have some cards that can be mana sinks.
Leyline of the Meek is more powerful than people give it credit. Lingering Souls is a powerful card. Its power level almost doubles with Meek out. Meek isn't too far off curve since most crusade effects cost three, so paying four to have the chance to have one or two out to start a game is fun. I'm still trying to find the right number of Leyline of Singularity. Its so powerful, but multiples don't help. Often it can be really hard to evaluate how good the Leyline of Singularity is since its keeping cards dead in your opponents hands. Stopping those discard spells is almost like drawing cards.
I like a one of Intangible Virtue for the Vigilance. Its so nice to have that and be able to attack and still have blockers. It allows you to win races you shouldn't. But I don't know how many of these effects you can play and you can't get double vigilance. I could see a 2/3 mix with Leyline of the Meek.
I like Hour of Reckoning, I can often play it on four mana and be a one sided Wrath effect. The tempo that creates wins games. But sometimes the added cost really hurts, but I'm also not sure that Wrath of God would leave me in a place to win those games. So I'm trying it as a one of out of the sideboard.
@Acissathar, Thanks for posting that list! Hard to argue a 5-0, but I agree with your observations.
-Night's Whisper is kind of all in or none, personally. The single copy doesn't give you much chance to draw or find much action.
-The single Leyline is also risky, great is on your opening hand but too late if you need to hard cast.
-Lilli of the Veil is a key card and wonder why they weren't a fan, especially w/ 4 Souls and Leyline.
-Wrath split is absolutely necessary bc of Meddling Mage at this point.
-Not a fan of Bontu's Reckoning as a split wrath though due to time walk.
-IMO, Field of Ruin should be played in every control deck due to Tron, Cavern, and manlands.
@roguetacticss
-with the unbans, the meta is definitely in favor of the Thoughtseize over Inquisition
-I would be careful with the Blossoms, especially running Night's Whisper and more Thoughtseize; If you do go down that route, I would suggest going all in and going to BW Tokens as a midrange deck. They have a great forum as well: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/656590-bw-tokens
@Talionis
-The above thread seems to be more your style if you're looking to go all in on the token plan as well. Leyline of the Meek and Hour or Reckoning seem like some nice spice for your deck!
The past few days of testing have been going really well. I've played against and seen a lot of Jeskai Control (once w/ Unbanned Jace), Lantern Control, G Tron, Naya Burn, and Humans mainly. Thus far I've lost once and each game felt like we had a solid MU. The match against The Mindsculpter, my opponent resolved three during the last match and I still managed to (2-0). Some things I've learned:
-Leyline of Sanctity makes Lantern significantly worse. If you manage to combine that with Stony Silence, they're done. Surgicaling one of their lock pieces is also backbreaking.
-Jace is gonna be tough, but he's not unbeatable. Between discard, our PWs, and a properly fitted sideboard, we can grind through their card advantage. Btw, Sorin, GN is an absolute house against Jace and Lantern. If they don't have a way to interact with him, he hits Lantern without the need to attack and can kill Jace the moment he resolves.
-Tron is still an uphill battle until they ban Ancient Stirrings. My land hate does buy me some time but I need to put them on a faster clock. Will definitely need more testing against the deck.
-Creature based decks don't really give us issues. I feel like we have all the answers MB, with some ways to make it much smoother in the SB.
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@Acissatha- also just realized the list is playing one Vault of the Archangel and one Westvale Abbey. I've played with both before but never in a control list like this. Both could be interesting but I wonder how often they are able to actually be utilized due to their costs and as potential targets of land destruction. Would be interested to hear people's experience with these cards.
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I didn't notice the Abbey either, that's interesting. When it first came out I tried it in regular BW tokens, and I found it was decent. I used it more as just a token generator than ever going for the demon, but I thought it was fine.
Vault seems sweet as a way to gain back a chunk of life, especially when you have an attacking Gideon(s). I like the idea of it, but we'll see how it goes in execution.
I'm going to get the last pieces I need this weekend to throw the deck together, and I'll be able to give it a whirl next week. So far the only changes I've made to the 5-0 list was -2 Gideon AoZ, + 2 LotV, -1 Leyline of Sanctity, + 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor, -1 Bontu's, -1 Damnation, + 2 Whispers. I don't have any humans locally, so the wrath split is unnecessary.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Yeah I think your right on bitterblossoms. I've played the vault of archangel in my control version and I honestly never used it, the mana is much better spent on vent activations from experience. I removed it to go up another basic for field of ruin searches.
Well, its official. The BBE/JtMS era of Modern is in full swing. Lol I think every other Magic player sold their homes for a full four copies of each! My past 8 matchups have been either BBE Jund or JtMS Jeskai. I'm hoping the tide will pass much like Grixis shadow once the meta starts to adapt more. In the meantime, this deck will definitely need to make sure to adjust accordingly. Thus far, it hasn't seemed too rough and I'm feeling more confident the more I play it, as we have the cards to deal with them directly and the advantages they generate. If you all have any suggestions let's make sure to discuss!
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My immeadiate thoughts
4 thoughtsieze
Leaving up vent and activation mana to block BBE haste
Sideboard slot for needle/glass
Discard/surgical so maybe up 2-3 in sideboard since surgical is great in a lot of matchups.
Gideon's, it seems pretty bad for them to play a turn 4 jace if we played a turn 3 Gideon
I'm currently play testing my 5c humans with the changes so I will eventually get to testing my BW control deck aswell.
I think the deck should have a decent matchup against both BBE and Jace decks. BBE decks are midrange grindfests usually, which 10+ walkers should easily carry us through.
6-8 discard plus the stream of hard to remove threats should tax Jace decks enough to secure the win. Game 1 where we draw too much removal could be rough though. I think Grim Nemesis shines here as he can eat the Jace and then stick around to accurecars advantage.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Thanks for the posts MrDude and Talionis! That is a great result for Landon and his decklist! There's a lot to breakdown here with this list and I'll get to it tonight, as he has some really interesting choices between his MB and SB cards that are worth looking at.
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Taking a look at Landon's card selection among his 75, there were some interesting things to note. I wanted to take some time to break them down and see if anyone had any further thoughts:
1. No creatures. Landon is running 9 PW and 27 spells to go with his 24 land count. I've recently decided to go creatureless myself, and so far I've been happy with the move. While I'm hoping that Dominaria can bring us some new toys to add to the deck, I'm not sure what creature best fits into this archetype at the moment that fits with everything we're trying to do. I feel like we need an exceptional two drop but haven't pinppointed one without some glaring flaw.
2. PW selection. Two different Elspeth, two different Giddys, and a heavy dose of Lilli of the Veil. He basically is running three big token generators, with the Elspeth and Giddy AoZ, while utilizing Lil Giddy and LotV to control the opponent's board state and disrupt their hand. The lack of Sorin and Ob Nix seem interesting to me. Ob Nix makes sense as he probably doesn't need more card draw at the cost of life but Sorin SV would do really well with the tokens to keep his life up.
3. 2 Relics MB. This is definitely a meta call, as recently control decks have been maindecking graveyard hate to help against Hollow One, Mardu, and any other deck that is directly pulling cards from the gy. While I haven't gone this route, I know many pros have started to make that shift, so it makes sense.
4. No Path to Exile. This one was a surprise to me, especially given some of the more powerful decks in the format. Fatal Push can't hit Tasigur, Angler, Hollowed One,Bedlam Reveler,Reality Smasher, or Wurmcoil Engine,to name a few, which could be a problem. My guess is, that with Big Elspeth, LotV, and his wraths, he was able to work around that.
5. Card draw. He went all in on the Night's Whisper and 2 Relics for card draw. Between the NWs, Thoguhtsiezes, Bitterblossoms, I'm curious to see how it impacted his life totals throughout the games he played. I've also discussed this before about my thoughts on card draw and whether it is necessary for the deck to run smoothly. Recently, I've tried going back to 3-4 NWs in my MTGO deck to see if my opinion on it would change, but unfortunately I am still not entirely sold. Prior to this build I was heavy into UW Control and couldn't really see why it didn't translate as well w/ BW. The difference between the two colors is subtle but very important. While we can get card advantage just like blue does through cards like NW (albeit at a cost of life), we lack the card selection that blue gets. I didn't realize how much I missed scrying until I played NW into two lands while I held a hand full of straight flood on turn 3. While that's not always the case, and some would argue that at least it allowed me to dig out two of my dead cards, it meant that I had basically wasted a turn and mana doing nothing to gain me advantage and lost two points of life. The scry ability at least gave me the opportunity to get the cards in needed quicker/more efficiently or get my dead cards to the bottom of my library. I'll continue to go back and forth to test out whether I am wrong in my theory and am willing to have my mind changed. For the moment, I'm still not a fan.
6. 3 Bitterblossoms. He went in on the BB plan and it seemed to pay off for him. I believe the tokens synergize well with Sorin SV, so I was surprised he didn't play one. I feel with the BBs, he transitions into more of the midrange role to grind out games and gain advantage through going wide. Would definitely want one in the opening hand to apply pressure early. Would rather go all in on tokens at that point, but he made it work for him.
A point to also note is that Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor weren't legal yet in paper for the tournament. From playing on MTGO, please believe we are entering a whole new world of Modern. So far, I have played three matches in the past few days that have not included either of those cards in the build. I am curious to see how players like Landon's decklist changes to accommodate this shift. I don't know how yall's meta looks like at your LGS and whether people are losing their minds to buy these ridiculously expensive cards, but at least be prepared if playing online!
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1. Creatureless is a plus I think. Most removal isn't live since Gideon won't die, and wasting it on a token feels super bad. We'd need something that either has hexproof / indestructible (unlikely) or a strong ETB. The strongest would be something like Stoneforge, but that likely won't be happening for a while.
Constant walker activations usually snowball much harder than creatures do, and we don't get punished by Terminus, which is likely to be much more popular.
2. Definitely agree that a Solemn Visitor would be sweet, especially given the Bitterblossoms. I think you're right on why Ob Nix is missing here, especially with the lack of Solemn Visitor (or even Lord of Innistrad).
3. Worst case it's a 2 mana or 1 mana delayed cantrip, so I can see it being fine if you expect a lot of graveyard decks that you want to steal game 1s from.
4. Reid Duke has advocated Abzan without Path (worked to top 8 the PT) because he feels the deck is about denying resources, and putting the opponent up on lands can fight against that. 4 Lilianas, plus Maelstrom Pulse are generally what they use to handle opposing problems. Tarmogoyf can also get big enough to fight some things like Angler. He also mentioned on Twitter he thinks at least one Murderous Cut should be in the deck.
I think we can forgo Path if running 3-4 Liliana, and run Dismember or Murderous Cut in it's place. This still loses out to Wurmcoil though. If BBE decks are more popular than Jace, Tron is likely to start running 3-4 Wurmcoil again and I think Path will be demanded in that situation.
A plus to Murderous Cut is that it works better with Grim Nemesis, but that's a 6 mana planeswalker so it's not really a point to make.
5. Another option is Read the Bones. Unfortunately, the 3 drop slot is pretty crowded as is, but the card does let you dig up to 4 deep. Hopefully we see something new for black cheap card selection, because Night's Whisper feels lackluster. I think in the heavy CMC builds it is a necessary evil though, because you need to hit those land drops and interaction.
6. I used to heavily play Black - White tokens, and the strongest cards beyond the discard was Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom. I think we can steal those elements and still avoid going all in on tokens just fine. Sorin, SV works good with Gideons (lifelink 5/4 or 6/5 indestructible, yes please!) as well, and the Emblem is something easily obtainable that pretty much shuts the door in grindy match ups.
SV also helps offset the pain of having to run Night's Whisper too.
BBE and Jace: I feel like these decks being popular is good for us. 8-10 Discard + 10+ walkers is super taxing and grindy, which gives us something positive for not running BBE or Jace.
TL;DR I agree with what you said, and look forward to seeing this new meta this week.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
@Acissathar
The article you had mentioned, Thoughtseizes and Fatal Pushes, was a good one, with valid points. Lately, few things feel worse than pathing a threat, only to ramp my opponents into a JacetMS. I’m starting to run a maindeck Sorcerous Spyglass to help combat the new meta and so far it’s been a quality decision. I’m also stepping back to take a look at our removal package to see what can fit in the deck as well as PtE. It is tough leaving my Paths behind, but maybe Murderous Cut, Dismember, or even Journey to Nowhere can be a suitable replacement. I also looked at Declaration in Stone but the last thing I want to be giving Tron after taking out a Wurmcoil Engine is more card draw lol. I’m going to keep testing the Nights Whispers in my build, although I agree that they need to print a better card for us in this next set.
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Went 2-1 last night, but not totally happy with all the slots so going to do some tweaking for tomorrow. I lost to Ponza (Blood Moon punished this greedy 9 basic deck 🙃), beat BBE Jund, and some weird blue eldrazi tron. It was unreasonably cold so we didn't have a big turnout, but I'm expecting Friday to be much bigger.
I was trying out Sorin SV, GN, and LoI. SV is amazing with any board presence but so miserable when behind. LoI was solidly eh. Don't think I want him main, probably just become another Gideon, AoZ. Nemesis was sweet everytime he came down. Being able to shoot walkers mattered, and the reverse bob ability stole me a game from Ponza.
There was only one instance where GN being Elspeth would have made a difference. I thought about playing both, but that seems a little too greedy.
I was on 3 Nights Whisper and 25 land to facilitate the high CMC build, and Whisper was like you said. It's okay, but having selection would help a lot.
Back onto the Path discussion, I actually ran into the situation fairly often where my opponent was out of basics due to Field and Path. I think if you aren't running Field, it might be worth cutting Path, but the late game ability to have "better swords" or "better wasteland" is significant. Similarly, this has made me think of going in on some Settle the Wreckages. It works well with the tokens as a plague wind, and combined with Path and Field can quickly upgrade all 3 spells.
Note, I'd still keep some hard wraths as not every creature you want to exile may attack.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I run a similar build to Salvino but I run Wall of Omens over Night's Whisper because of it's big butt, the no life loss and the fact that it can turn your Path's into ramp when they're dead. Speaking of Path, I run a full set that I pair with a full set of Field of Ruin since you can run a lot of decks out of basics. I also run Nihil Spellbomb over Relic.
@DTG- Field of Ruin is great and I run the full set myself as I feel they work best in control decks with how much we need to be up on lands to cast our spells. I do like WoO and all you’re points on it are valid. I may go back to them but at the moment enjoying the creatureless build. Nihil is prob the best fit in our deck IMO as targeted removal and card draw at instant speed is fantastic.
@Acissatahar- Sorin GN is really growing on me lately, especially in this current meta. Another thing I find that NW lacks is instant speed. It just feels bad to play it on my turn 2 or 3, draw into nothing and basically take a turn off. I also run one Settle and it has worked great, especially if you hold up a GotT bluff that they attack all their board into. That alone has won me many a game.
I’ve been looking at two things in the current meta lately, removal and card draw. At this point, an answer to Jace needs to be MB and I run a Sorcerous Spyglass. I’m considering adding a Hero’s Downfall or Anguished Unmaking as well. Our discard is great but if they topdeck one and resolve it, things can get pretty hairy if you don’t have an immediate answer. Here is a good article in regards to this as well: Beating Jace. As for card draw, I’m looking for instant speed draw with some sort of upside that can be used across various MUs. Unfortunately, our colors don’t have many options and card selection is only there in Read the Bones, which is bad. Wall is always an option so that we can at least have a blocker. What do you guys think about Shadow of Doubt? This seems really good on your opponents turn, especially if they crack a fetch or if you’re up against Tron, Storm, Scapeshift, etc. Can provide quality disruption and gain us a card. Can also work with our Paths. Might be worth a test run.
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I've been thinking of an Anguished as well just as a catch all, whether that be walkers that slid past or even some random hank enchantment someone throws down. I would say it's fine to include.
The biggest problem I have with Shadow of Doubt is getting 2 black consistently. There is also the conflict of cycling it vs holding onto it for too long just to try to get the extra value. It does have some synergy that can be forced instead of waiting, so maybe it isn't too bad.
I'm going to actually give Read the Bones a shot tonight over Whisper and see how it performs. My initial expectation is that the 3 drop becomes too crowded, but we will see.
I've also been thinking of replacing the Whispers with Bitterblossom (Why is this card $40 still?). They serve different purposes but they compete for the same lifeloss, and instead of possible whiffs on Whisper, it's just more threats.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Definitely let us know how Read the Bones felt, as I am curious to see how it felt at the three slot. As for Bitterblossom, they really need to lower the price. I think the price went up Bc of Jace, since I've been seeing a lot of Faeries deck pop up online running Jace. Funny enough, I've been beating the deck relatively easily by grinding them out and letting them slowly kill themselves with BB triggers. I really want to buy another Lilli of the Veil but of course Jace pushed her back up to ~$100. Gonna have to wait on that one.
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Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Speaking of budget, I was looking at options for Lilli and couldn’t help looking at OG Liliana Vess. At five, she is definitely not ideal, but can she be better in the five slot than Ob Nixilis Reignited or Gideon Jura? She is a one way discard, can Tutor for a next turn answer, and her ultimate can likely win. I could be reaching hardcore but it crossed my mind.
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Hey Gpash! Thanks for the post! Where did the list come from, is it yours? Curious to know due to the card selections. I'm curious on the 5 wraths, 1 Nights Whisper, no Lillis, and 2 Thoughtseize.
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Very interesting, that's Zyrnak's second 5-0 we've seen lately, only change is the Leyline has been switched for a Day of Judgement. Really curious to hear about their matchups. Obviously, they're doing something right lol. Would love to pick their brain on some of the selection choices.
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Leyline of the Meek is more powerful than people give it credit. Lingering Souls is a powerful card. Its power level almost doubles with Meek out. Meek isn't too far off curve since most crusade effects cost three, so paying four to have the chance to have one or two out to start a game is fun. I'm still trying to find the right number of Leyline of Singularity. Its so powerful, but multiples don't help. Often it can be really hard to evaluate how good the Leyline of Singularity is since its keeping cards dead in your opponents hands. Stopping those discard spells is almost like drawing cards.
I like a one of Intangible Virtue for the Vigilance. Its so nice to have that and be able to attack and still have blockers. It allows you to win races you shouldn't. But I don't know how many of these effects you can play and you can't get double vigilance. I could see a 2/3 mix with Leyline of the Meek.
I'm still testing Promise of Bunrei and Rise of the Hobgoblins. Rise of the Hobgoblins grants first strike, which is sometimes very relevant, especially with Vault of the Archangels. I could see Promise becoming a maindeck Hour of Reckoning.
I like Hour of Reckoning, I can often play it on four mana and be a one sided Wrath effect. The tempo that creates wins games. But sometimes the added cost really hurts, but I'm also not sure that Wrath of God would leave me in a place to win those games. So I'm trying it as a one of out of the sideboard.
1 Springjack Shepherd
3 Weathered Wayfarer
Planeswalker (4)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Enchantment (14)
2 Bitterblossom
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Leyline of the Meek
1 Intangible Virtue
1 Rise of the Hobgoblins
1 Legion's Landing
1 Promise of Bunrei
1 Nevermore
Instant (6)
3 Path to Exile
1 Secure the Wastes
2 Start//Finish
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
1 Wrath of God
Land (23)
3 Godless Shrine
1 Fetid Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Mistveil Plains
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Springjack Pasture
1 Windbrisk Heights
1 Nythos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Orzhov Basilica
1 Day of Judgment
1 Hour of Reckoning
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Auriok Champion
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Runed Halo
3 Stony Silence
3 Suppression Field
-Night's Whisper is kind of all in or none, personally. The single copy doesn't give you much chance to draw or find much action.
-The single Leyline is also risky, great is on your opening hand but too late if you need to hard cast.
-Lilli of the Veil is a key card and wonder why they weren't a fan, especially w/ 4 Souls and Leyline.
-Wrath split is absolutely necessary bc of Meddling Mage at this point.
-Not a fan of Bontu's Reckoning as a split wrath though due to time walk.
-IMO, Field of Ruin should be played in every control deck due to Tron, Cavern, and manlands.
@roguetacticss
-with the unbans, the meta is definitely in favor of the Thoughtseize over Inquisition
-I would be careful with the Blossoms, especially running Night's Whisper and more Thoughtseize; If you do go down that route, I would suggest going all in and going to BW Tokens as a midrange deck. They have a great forum as well: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/656590-bw-tokens
@Talionis
-The above thread seems to be more your style if you're looking to go all in on the token plan as well. Leyline of the Meek and Hour or Reckoning seem like some nice spice for your deck!
The past few days of testing have been going really well. I've played against and seen a lot of Jeskai Control (once w/ Unbanned Jace), Lantern Control, G Tron, Naya Burn, and Humans mainly. Thus far I've lost once and each game felt like we had a solid MU. The match against The Mindsculpter, my opponent resolved three during the last match and I still managed to (2-0). Some things I've learned:
-Leyline of Sanctity makes Lantern significantly worse. If you manage to combine that with Stony Silence, they're done. Surgicaling one of their lock pieces is also backbreaking.
-Jace is gonna be tough, but he's not unbeatable. Between discard, our PWs, and a properly fitted sideboard, we can grind through their card advantage. Btw, Sorin, GN is an absolute house against Jace and Lantern. If they don't have a way to interact with him, he hits Lantern without the need to attack and can kill Jace the moment he resolves.
-Tron is still an uphill battle until they ban Ancient Stirrings. My land hate does buy me some time but I need to put them on a faster clock. Will definitely need more testing against the deck.
-Creature based decks don't really give us issues. I feel like we have all the answers MB, with some ways to make it much smoother in the SB.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
Vault seems sweet as a way to gain back a chunk of life, especially when you have an attacking Gideon(s). I like the idea of it, but we'll see how it goes in execution.
I'm going to get the last pieces I need this weekend to throw the deck together, and I'll be able to give it a whirl next week. So far the only changes I've made to the 5-0 list was -2 Gideon AoZ, + 2 LotV, -1 Leyline of Sanctity, + 1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor, -1 Bontu's, -1 Damnation, + 2 Whispers. I don't have any humans locally, so the wrath split is unnecessary.
Yeah I think your right on bitterblossoms. I've played the vault of archangel in my control version and I honestly never used it, the mana is much better spent on vent activations from experience. I removed it to go up another basic for field of ruin searches.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
4 thoughtsieze
Leaving up vent and activation mana to block BBE haste
Sideboard slot for needle/glass
Discard/surgical so maybe up 2-3 in sideboard since surgical is great in a lot of matchups.
Gideon's, it seems pretty bad for them to play a turn 4 jace if we played a turn 3 Gideon
I'm currently play testing my 5c humans with the changes so I will eventually get to testing my BW control deck aswell.
6-8 discard plus the stream of hard to remove threats should tax Jace decks enough to secure the win. Game 1 where we draw too much removal could be rough though. I think Grim Nemesis shines here as he can eat the Jace and then stick around to accurecars advantage.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118938
Big ups to Landon Savino for playing this to 17th place this weekend.
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Shambling Vent
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Fatal Push
2 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lingering Souls
4 Night's Whisper
3 Thoughtseize
1 Wrath of God
3 Bitterblossom
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Rest in Peace
2 Runed Halo
2 Stony Silence
1 Celestial Purge
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
1. No creatures. Landon is running 9 PW and 27 spells to go with his 24 land count. I've recently decided to go creatureless myself, and so far I've been happy with the move. While I'm hoping that Dominaria can bring us some new toys to add to the deck, I'm not sure what creature best fits into this archetype at the moment that fits with everything we're trying to do. I feel like we need an exceptional two drop but haven't pinppointed one without some glaring flaw.
2. PW selection. Two different Elspeth, two different Giddys, and a heavy dose of Lilli of the Veil. He basically is running three big token generators, with the Elspeth and Giddy AoZ, while utilizing Lil Giddy and LotV to control the opponent's board state and disrupt their hand. The lack of Sorin and Ob Nix seem interesting to me. Ob Nix makes sense as he probably doesn't need more card draw at the cost of life but Sorin SV would do really well with the tokens to keep his life up.
3. 2 Relics MB. This is definitely a meta call, as recently control decks have been maindecking graveyard hate to help against Hollow One, Mardu, and any other deck that is directly pulling cards from the gy. While I haven't gone this route, I know many pros have started to make that shift, so it makes sense.
4. No Path to Exile. This one was a surprise to me, especially given some of the more powerful decks in the format. Fatal Push can't hit Tasigur, Angler, Hollowed One,Bedlam Reveler,Reality Smasher, or Wurmcoil Engine,to name a few, which could be a problem. My guess is, that with Big Elspeth, LotV, and his wraths, he was able to work around that.
5. Card draw. He went all in on the Night's Whisper and 2 Relics for card draw. Between the NWs, Thoguhtsiezes, Bitterblossoms, I'm curious to see how it impacted his life totals throughout the games he played. I've also discussed this before about my thoughts on card draw and whether it is necessary for the deck to run smoothly. Recently, I've tried going back to 3-4 NWs in my MTGO deck to see if my opinion on it would change, but unfortunately I am still not entirely sold. Prior to this build I was heavy into UW Control and couldn't really see why it didn't translate as well w/ BW. The difference between the two colors is subtle but very important. While we can get card advantage just like blue does through cards like NW (albeit at a cost of life), we lack the card selection that blue gets. I didn't realize how much I missed scrying until I played NW into two lands while I held a hand full of straight flood on turn 3. While that's not always the case, and some would argue that at least it allowed me to dig out two of my dead cards, it meant that I had basically wasted a turn and mana doing nothing to gain me advantage and lost two points of life. The scry ability at least gave me the opportunity to get the cards in needed quicker/more efficiently or get my dead cards to the bottom of my library. I'll continue to go back and forth to test out whether I am wrong in my theory and am willing to have my mind changed. For the moment, I'm still not a fan.
6. 3 Bitterblossoms. He went in on the BB plan and it seemed to pay off for him. I believe the tokens synergize well with Sorin SV, so I was surprised he didn't play one. I feel with the BBs, he transitions into more of the midrange role to grind out games and gain advantage through going wide. Would definitely want one in the opening hand to apply pressure early. Would rather go all in on tokens at that point, but he made it work for him.
A point to also note is that Bloodbraid Elf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor weren't legal yet in paper for the tournament. From playing on MTGO, please believe we are entering a whole new world of Modern. So far, I have played three matches in the past few days that have not included either of those cards in the build. I am curious to see how players like Landon's decklist changes to accommodate this shift. I don't know how yall's meta looks like at your LGS and whether people are losing their minds to buy these ridiculously expensive cards, but at least be prepared if playing online!
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
1. Creatureless is a plus I think. Most removal isn't live since Gideon won't die, and wasting it on a token feels super bad. We'd need something that either has hexproof / indestructible (unlikely) or a strong ETB. The strongest would be something like Stoneforge, but that likely won't be happening for a while.
Constant walker activations usually snowball much harder than creatures do, and we don't get punished by Terminus, which is likely to be much more popular.
2. Definitely agree that a Solemn Visitor would be sweet, especially given the Bitterblossoms. I think you're right on why Ob Nix is missing here, especially with the lack of Solemn Visitor (or even Lord of Innistrad).
3. Worst case it's a 2 mana or 1 mana delayed cantrip, so I can see it being fine if you expect a lot of graveyard decks that you want to steal game 1s from.
4. Reid Duke has advocated Abzan without Path (worked to top 8 the PT) because he feels the deck is about denying resources, and putting the opponent up on lands can fight against that. 4 Lilianas, plus Maelstrom Pulse are generally what they use to handle opposing problems. Tarmogoyf can also get big enough to fight some things like Angler. He also mentioned on Twitter he thinks at least one Murderous Cut should be in the deck.
I think we can forgo Path if running 3-4 Liliana, and run Dismember or Murderous Cut in it's place. This still loses out to Wurmcoil though. If BBE decks are more popular than Jace, Tron is likely to start running 3-4 Wurmcoil again and I think Path will be demanded in that situation.
A plus to Murderous Cut is that it works better with Grim Nemesis, but that's a 6 mana planeswalker so it's not really a point to make.
5. Another option is Read the Bones. Unfortunately, the 3 drop slot is pretty crowded as is, but the card does let you dig up to 4 deep. Hopefully we see something new for black cheap card selection, because Night's Whisper feels lackluster. I think in the heavy CMC builds it is a necessary evil though, because you need to hit those land drops and interaction.
6. I used to heavily play Black - White tokens, and the strongest cards beyond the discard was Lingering Souls and Bitterblossom. I think we can steal those elements and still avoid going all in on tokens just fine. Sorin, SV works good with Gideons (lifelink 5/4 or 6/5 indestructible, yes please!) as well, and the Emblem is something easily obtainable that pretty much shuts the door in grindy match ups.
SV also helps offset the pain of having to run Night's Whisper too.
BBE and Jace: I feel like these decks being popular is good for us. 8-10 Discard + 10+ walkers is super taxing and grindy, which gives us something positive for not running BBE or Jace.
TL;DR I agree with what you said, and look forward to seeing this new meta this week.
The article you had mentioned, Thoughtseizes and Fatal Pushes, was a good one, with valid points. Lately, few things feel worse than pathing a threat, only to ramp my opponents into a JacetMS. I’m starting to run a maindeck Sorcerous Spyglass to help combat the new meta and so far it’s been a quality decision. I’m also stepping back to take a look at our removal package to see what can fit in the deck as well as PtE. It is tough leaving my Paths behind, but maybe Murderous Cut, Dismember, or even Journey to Nowhere can be a suitable replacement. I also looked at Declaration in Stone but the last thing I want to be giving Tron after taking out a Wurmcoil Engine is more card draw lol. I’m going to keep testing the Nights Whispers in my build, although I agree that they need to print a better card for us in this next set.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
I was trying out Sorin SV, GN, and LoI. SV is amazing with any board presence but so miserable when behind. LoI was solidly eh. Don't think I want him main, probably just become another Gideon, AoZ. Nemesis was sweet everytime he came down. Being able to shoot walkers mattered, and the reverse bob ability stole me a game from Ponza.
There was only one instance where GN being Elspeth would have made a difference. I thought about playing both, but that seems a little too greedy.
I was on 3 Nights Whisper and 25 land to facilitate the high CMC build, and Whisper was like you said. It's okay, but having selection would help a lot.
Back onto the Path discussion, I actually ran into the situation fairly often where my opponent was out of basics due to Field and Path. I think if you aren't running Field, it might be worth cutting Path, but the late game ability to have "better swords" or "better wasteland" is significant. Similarly, this has made me think of going in on some Settle the Wreckages. It works well with the tokens as a plague wind, and combined with Path and Field can quickly upgrade all 3 spells.
Note, I'd still keep some hard wraths as not every creature you want to exile may attack.
@Acissatahar- Sorin GN is really growing on me lately, especially in this current meta. Another thing I find that NW lacks is instant speed. It just feels bad to play it on my turn 2 or 3, draw into nothing and basically take a turn off. I also run one Settle and it has worked great, especially if you hold up a GotT bluff that they attack all their board into. That alone has won me many a game.
I’ve been looking at two things in the current meta lately, removal and card draw. At this point, an answer to Jace needs to be MB and I run a Sorcerous Spyglass. I’m considering adding a Hero’s Downfall or Anguished Unmaking as well. Our discard is great but if they topdeck one and resolve it, things can get pretty hairy if you don’t have an immediate answer. Here is a good article in regards to this as well: Beating Jace. As for card draw, I’m looking for instant speed draw with some sort of upside that can be used across various MUs. Unfortunately, our colors don’t have many options and card selection is only there in Read the Bones, which is bad. Wall is always an option so that we can at least have a blocker. What do you guys think about Shadow of Doubt? This seems really good on your opponents turn, especially if they crack a fetch or if you’re up against Tron, Storm, Scapeshift, etc. Can provide quality disruption and gain us a card. Can also work with our Paths. Might be worth a test run.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
The biggest problem I have with Shadow of Doubt is getting 2 black consistently. There is also the conflict of cycling it vs holding onto it for too long just to try to get the extra value. It does have some synergy that can be forced instead of waiting, so maybe it isn't too bad.
I'm going to actually give Read the Bones a shot tonight over Whisper and see how it performs. My initial expectation is that the 3 drop becomes too crowded, but we will see.
I've also been thinking of replacing the Whispers with Bitterblossom (Why is this card $40 still?). They serve different purposes but they compete for the same lifeloss, and instead of possible whiffs on Whisper, it's just more threats.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
Totally understand about the price stuff too, it's ridiculous at times.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
3 Gideon of the Trials
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
1 Bontu’s Last Reckoning
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Day of Judgment
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Soul
1 Night’s Whisper
2 Thoughtseize
2 Wrath of God
3 Fatal Push
3 Path to Exile
3 Field of Ruin
2 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Fragmentize
3 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Rest In Peace
1 Rule of Law
2 Stony Silence
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2018-02-23
Not my list, but I’m looking to get into Modern (and in particular this archetype) so it caught my eye.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW