He has replied on reddit a couple times, and notably he said that he was going to try and record one of his leagues. If I see the link I'll make sure to post it here as well.
With regards to Lili Vess, my gut feeling is that she's just too slow. Ob Nix and Gideon are both removal in addition to stall / card draw / beater, while Vess just forces discard on someone who may already be empty or just tutor. Tutor is sweet, but its also delayed. Who knows though, maybe it plays out much better than it seems.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
@Gpash- Lilli of the Veil is fantastic IMO and one of the reasons to play this archetype. It’s not often that she’s not run in any control deck that’s running black, so I’m surprised not to see her in the list. Any other 5-0/high finish list I’ve seen run between 1-4 of her. She is a great card against the field and helps discard dead cards/Lingering Souls for more value. All three modes are important to our control plan, and I would definitely encourage running as many as you can, personally.
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Been looking up BW two drops lately to find anything interesting that could be useful in this shell. What do you guys think of Dead Man’s Chest? Does this card have potential,especially in some of our noncreature builds?
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@GPash- not entirely sure what you mean, as both cards do radically different things. Arguel's Blood Fast does two things depending on the side that's flipped, both of which do something our deck can do more efficiently. The front side comes down on two and coasts two to activate, only drawing you one card for two life which can set you back two turns. Nights Whisper offers more cards for better value. Once ABF is flipped, it becomes a sacrifice engine that gains you life, which we don't need between Sorin and Vents and would mean we're sacrificing tokens for minimal life gain. This card seems inefficient in my estimation unless youre seeing something else from the card. I was looking at Dead Man's Chest in regards to synergy with our removal spells. If it is played on a creature like Tarmagoyf or a boosted up Flameblade Adept and killed, we could potentially have access to a large number of cards in our opponents deck that we could then cast as our own, essentially giving us more card advantage at low cost. We would basically be increasing our hand size and options for killing one of their creatures. This may be too situational though, as we could go from hitting a Jace the Mind Sculptor to a pile of useless lands. It may be a dumb idea, but like I said, could yield some interesting outcomes.
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Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Thanks for the post Acissathar! The deck tech helps explain quite a bit in terms of his card selection. It appears that the wraths are definitely a key component to what has been assisting his gameplan. I'm going to try upping my wrath count and adjusting to another land to accomodate the increased CMC count. Hope he continues to stream, as quality streamers are difficult to find. I'm hoping to get a league in once I've done some more testing with my current list!
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I still don't totally agree with no Liliana, but he's made it multiple times so it must be right. I'm going to give it a shot (just bought them too ;_;) and see what all the Gideon hubbub is about.
He does still stand by Grim Nemesis, and I've gotta say, I'm really, really liking it. A lot of people ask why not Elspeth, and then they lose their threat and drown in VS.
I'm hoping he keeps it up too. It's a niche deck, and being able to actually see games play out is a huge benefit.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I also feel the list benefits from at least a Lilli, and I'm not ready to give up on my variety just yet ;). The Giddy tribal theme is definitely good though by the way he's been winning. I do like other wincons and would still run some of the other PWs as they add spice and a more control aspect. I was totally wrong about Sorin GN at the beginning! I thought he was too slow and not good enough. I couldn't have been more wrong, as each time I've resolved him has felt fantastic. I've altered my list to more closely match Zyrnak's. The additional wraths have been amazing and I threw in a Vault of the Archangel, which has helped me stall to victory in some games. Lilli Vess has also been playing way better than expected, which I was surprised. While her discard effect and ultimate is great, the tutor has been beyond clutch in some matchups. I'm definitely going to keep testing her for the moment.
I am lurking for a few days now since I am on the
brink of venturing either into modern (again; first time on MTGO)
or into legacy. Not sure yet.
Nevertheless, Orzhov control seems to be in a great spot right now,
so it is definitely a big contender for my next deck.
Though I haven´t seen Zyrnak´s video yet,
I do get why he doesn´t run LOTV:
Her(+)ability lets you sacrifice a card in a deck with virtually no
card draw. You would have to use this to tick her up, losing valuable cards
in the process. And paying 3 CMC for one edict effect isn´t great either.
There is basically no real solid reason to run her, other than blindly bandwagoning with
her representing a no-brainer-value-card-that-needs-to-be-included-everytime (no offense, since you people
here don´t reflect this sentiment).
He trades card quality for draw and deck manipulation. Also, the lifelink thingy he
has going on with the Sorins, Westvale Abbey, Collective Brutality is spicy. Would probably go with two Night´s Whisper main deck.
Maybe Erebos, God of the Dead is a solid idea after all to provide another opportunity to draw at will and together with Ob Nixilis and Night´s Whisper? Or even Bob?
I will try to go for a more prisonish direction though. Maybe something along the lines of Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Ring or Damping Matrix from the sideboard.
Liliana I've tested and not liked. My opponents are almost always empty handed before I am, so her +1 doesn't work well with what I'm doing and her -2 is just an edict. She's better in decks like Jund with a low average CMC and Dark Confidants.
I get what he's saying. There have been times where I really want to tick Liliana up, but if I do I either need to discard land 5 or a 5 drop walker, when I would much rather hold onto both. Instead, he is more "aggressive" by putting out the stream of Gideons that demand an answer, so the hand attack and edict isn't as necessary.
FWIW though, I like having 2. Even as a bad edict, she is still fine, and against Combo / Control / Tron, she helps strip out resources.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
@Mindstab-
Thank you for the post and hope we can make your decision into Modern or Legacy more clear. I do agree with your points on Liliana in several regards. In a deck without card draw or graveyard benefits, she is not ideal. Her -2 isn’t the best edict either as it leaves her open to any easy targeting. Losing valuable cards is tough especially if you aren’t getting quality land drops to back up any action you may draw. Having said that, she can be very effective against the decks that Acissathar had mentioned. Stripping opponents key resources is vital to our control plan and can also help us get rid of dead cards or Souls while building up to her ultimate, which can flat out win games. Her edict is also valuable in instances where you have difficulty interacting such as Boggles. I think running 1 is a viable option for our deck without negatively affecting our gameplan. I could be convinced otherwise though and may look into playing a third GotT in her place to test out in the future. I am sceptical about the Bobs though, especially in a heavy CMC build like ours. He’s such a great engine, but man with all the life loss black forces on you with card advantage, I would be scared to die to card draw alone. Would definitely be interested to see what a prison based theme would look like in this shell, if you had a build in mind.
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Hey, I just found out about this deck, than to Craig Wescoe's article and it's just the deck I was looking for for the discarded half of my old Abzan deck (which became a Jund deck, of course). I was looking for a Lingering Souls deck, since I think that card is key to attack the post-unban metagame, and I thought I found it in Little Kid Abzan... but the lack of a non-promo Noble Hierarch reprint this year made me change my plans.
I'm currently waiting for some cards to arrive, and hopefully I'll be posting about my results in the next month or so.
@ SpinifexV- welcome to the thread! Happy to have new people join the conversation. Lingering Souls is absolutely a hot card right now and a key part of the deck. Craig Wescoe’s article, along with a few others I included in the primer was what helped push me towards the archetype, and it’s been a blast to play with. If you like powerful PWs combined with some of the best disruption and value in the game, this is a fun deck! And yeah I feel you on the Noble Hierarch. Prices for some of these cards is unreal...
I tried the non-Lili build today on MTGO, putting one in the SB while sliding in a few more Giddys and adding in Westvale Abbey. I have to admit, it ran much better than I would’ve thought. The deck did feel more aggressive when I needed it and when I had a matchup where she could be vital, I just switched her in G2 no problem. As for Westvale, I was super sceptical about the card and thought it was going to just be a pretty slow and ultimately useless land. Of course my first game playing with it, it’s in my opening hand against BBE Jund. I flipped it on turn 6 at 4 life with my opponent at 16 and a loaded board. Won the next turn lol. I don’t think this card is a must have by any means, but so far between WA and Vault of the Archangel, I’m starting to see why Zyrnak is including them.
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I'm not a fan of the singleton Night's Whisper as I feel it's one of those cards you either want multiples of or none. Unfortunately I don't know what to cut in order to make it worth running two. I was also looking at this card in its slot: Mastermind's Acquisition. At four CMC its expensive but can find you your answer either in the library or SB and put it directly in your hand. Is this worth substituting in the single NW spot?
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Frankly, it could easily be 1-3 Wall of Omens instead, considering this is a control deck. It replaces itself, doesn't cost life, and can protect your life total and your Gideons from a couple of attacks of Goblin Guide, Monastery Swiftspear, or even Tarmogoyf.
Heya, guys. I picked this deck up online recently and it's been doing work. After getting to talk with Zyrnak on reddit a little bit I have modeled my version of the deck a lot like their's. It's doing well, but my biggest problem I have is always my number of dead cards in control matchups. After trying to mitigate this for a while, I have given up. We can still win, but drawing a bunch of wraths and spot removal feels bad when the only targets are their colonnades. Either way, post board games feel alright. Cranial Extraction is nuts in every matchup you worry about. It's my favorite part of the sideboard. Goes for tron, goes for combo, etc. I considered Lost Legacy as a replacement at a lower CMC, but I think the nonartifact clause and the fact they can draw cards if you take it from their hand hold it back.
Either way I'm hyped to be here, and hyped to see this deck getting attention.
PS: Also, I play a 2 of Whisper. Wouldn't go any higher or lower. Feels just right.
@wmuch- Welcome to the thread, fam! It's great to see all the new posts recently, as players like Zyrnak have helped it pick up steam. Control MUs will always be filled with some dead cards but it's all about tight play and knowing when/how to play around their counters. If you can resolve even a single PW early enough,they fall behind quite quickly. I've just switched out my Lost Legacy for the reasons you mentioned and have gone the Cranial Extraction route. Due to the amount of Jaces I've been seeing online, I also switched the single NW in my deck for a Sorcerous Spyglass. Feel I get more value from that than my NW, and if not, it's an easy switch for the SB.
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Hey Group! I have been playing BW tokens for a while and saw Craig Wescoe's article on BW control and it really peeked my interest. Here is a list built from cards I own and pieces of my old Tokens deck. I would love some critiques and advice on the build. Sideboard is still in the works and I am open for advice on it. I am not a big fan of the Curve currently but I don't know exactly how important it is for this type of list to Curve out. I have also not been a fan of Sorin SV at all. He is helpful but I just feel like there is something better I could be doing with my mana.
@Disdamgame- welcome to the thread and hope you enjoy playing the deck! I would recommend watching Zyrnak’s video a few posts above, as it has a nice deck tech and why we use certain cards. I would recommend the Sorin SVs if you run Bitterblossom and Nights Whisper in your build just bc you don’t want to kill yourself to your own cards. I have a pretty easy time against Bitterblossom decks as I tend to manage the board until they basically lose to themselves. Sorin can at least keep you afloat while pumping them up for more lifegain. I would move Timely Reinforcements for another PW, discard, or wrath effect. Collective Brutality is also great in our build as a one or two of. Depending on your meta you may also opt for more Thoughtseize vs Inquisitions and Pushes over Paths (to keep from giving them too many mana ramps). And if two Sorin SVs aren’t your thing, maybe try giving the other Sorins a spin. Big Sorin has been great, especially in the online meta! This looks to be a solid build you have and , like all control variants, tweak it based on what you’re seeing from your opponents. As for the curve, this deck is pretty CMC heavy. We tend to run very little two drops, as we rely on our one mana disruption/removal early on before making way for Souls and PWs to win the game. Ideally, you’re dropping a PW between turns 3-5 before using the rest of the time to keep them alive and add to your arsenal.
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Hey everyone! Below is the current list I've been testing out on MTGO and I've been having a blast! I think even with BBE and JtMS running around, we still do well against these decks. I'm looking to update the primer next week as for as card updates and matchups. If you all have any thoughts or input send me a personal message and I'll include!
Nothing too specific, but definitely agree we can hang with the Jace and Elf decks. We've got the removal and grindy walkers to deal with the free spell from Elf, and the ~8 discard coupled with ~10 game ending threats is pretty taxing on Jace decks.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Hey guys, long time Orzhov player here. In the past I have played midrangey decks mainly like BW tokens and brews with Bob/Tidehollow Sculler/Smugglers Copter. The reason I have always hesitated to try a BW Control list is how poorly discard plays with control strategies. Blue based control gets to play universal answers in the form of counters like Cryptic Command, so they can play the reactive game better than we can. With only discard available to answer spells and noncreature permanents (something like a 1 of Anguished Unmaking cannot change this IMO), your opponent will eventually topdeck something powerful you cannot answer. So in conclusion we need to present a serious clock in addition to our discard suite. This is why I try to lower the overall curve of the deck (fewer high cmc planeswalkers) and do not play cards like Night's Whisper. The list may look very similar to a BW Token midrange shell, but it adapts the Gideon+Boardwipe package from your control lists for a faster clock and card advantage against creature based strategies.
I only play paper magic, so there is limited testing. So far the results have been mixed. Not sure I like the walls and I want to make space for something like Fulminator mage in the board. However, the archtype is definitley fun to play and strong in a creature heavy meta. The one thing I dislike is when you simply draw the wrong half of the deck, but I guess having no card selection is the flipside of not playing blue.
Awesome thread btw guys!
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With regards to Lili Vess, my gut feeling is that she's just too slow. Ob Nix and Gideon are both removal in addition to stall / card draw / beater, while Vess just forces discard on someone who may already be empty or just tutor. Tutor is sweet, but its also delayed. Who knows though, maybe it plays out much better than it seems.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDT3HySXevc&list=PLVfwJL8w3MeeVjPqruurI2BDxlwSs7i71
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
He does still stand by Grim Nemesis, and I've gotta say, I'm really, really liking it. A lot of people ask why not Elspeth, and then they lose their threat and drown in VS.
I'm hoping he keeps it up too. It's a niche deck, and being able to actually see games play out is a huge benefit.
Planeswalkers
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Gideon Jura
1 Liliana Vess
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Spells
3 Fatal Push
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Path to Exile
4 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
1 Anguished Unmaking
4 Lingering Souls
1 Damnation
1 Day of Judgment
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Wrath of God
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
Land
1 Fetid Heath
4 Field of Ruin
2 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
5 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Lost Legacy
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Runed Halo
1 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Rule of Law
2 Leyline of Sanctity
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
brink of venturing either into modern (again; first time on MTGO)
or into legacy. Not sure yet.
Nevertheless, Orzhov control seems to be in a great spot right now,
so it is definitely a big contender for my next deck.
Though I haven´t seen Zyrnak´s video yet,
I do get why he doesn´t run LOTV:
Her(+)ability lets you sacrifice a card in a deck with virtually no
card draw. You would have to use this to tick her up, losing valuable cards
in the process. And paying 3 CMC for one edict effect isn´t great either.
There is basically no real solid reason to run her, other than blindly bandwagoning with
her representing a no-brainer-value-card-that-needs-to-be-included-everytime (no offense, since you people
here don´t reflect this sentiment).
He trades card quality for draw and deck manipulation. Also, the lifelink thingy he
has going on with the Sorins, Westvale Abbey, Collective Brutality is spicy. Would probably go with two Night´s Whisper main deck.
Maybe Erebos, God of the Dead is a solid idea after all to provide another opportunity to draw at will and together with Ob Nixilis and Night´s Whisper? Or even Bob?
I will try to go for a more prisonish direction though. Maybe something along the lines of Ghostly Prison, Oblivion Ring or Damping Matrix from the sideboard.
Cheers
I get what he's saying. There have been times where I really want to tick Liliana up, but if I do I either need to discard land 5 or a 5 drop walker, when I would much rather hold onto both. Instead, he is more "aggressive" by putting out the stream of Gideons that demand an answer, so the hand attack and edict isn't as necessary.
FWIW though, I like having 2. Even as a bad edict, she is still fine, and against Combo / Control / Tron, she helps strip out resources.
Giving her up (my case) might open up a few needed slots.
Thank you for the post and hope we can make your decision into Modern or Legacy more clear. I do agree with your points on Liliana in several regards. In a deck without card draw or graveyard benefits, she is not ideal. Her -2 isn’t the best edict either as it leaves her open to any easy targeting. Losing valuable cards is tough especially if you aren’t getting quality land drops to back up any action you may draw. Having said that, she can be very effective against the decks that Acissathar had mentioned. Stripping opponents key resources is vital to our control plan and can also help us get rid of dead cards or Souls while building up to her ultimate, which can flat out win games. Her edict is also valuable in instances where you have difficulty interacting such as Boggles. I think running 1 is a viable option for our deck without negatively affecting our gameplan. I could be convinced otherwise though and may look into playing a third GotT in her place to test out in the future. I am sceptical about the Bobs though, especially in a heavy CMC build like ours. He’s such a great engine, but man with all the life loss black forces on you with card advantage, I would be scared to die to card draw alone. Would definitely be interested to see what a prison based theme would look like in this shell, if you had a build in mind.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
I'm currently waiting for some cards to arrive, and hopefully I'll be posting about my results in the next month or so.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
I tried the non-Lili build today on MTGO, putting one in the SB while sliding in a few more Giddys and adding in Westvale Abbey. I have to admit, it ran much better than I would’ve thought. The deck did feel more aggressive when I needed it and when I had a matchup where she could be vital, I just switched her in G2 no problem. As for Westvale, I was super sceptical about the card and thought it was going to just be a pretty slow and ultimately useless land. Of course my first game playing with it, it’s in my opening hand against BBE Jund. I flipped it on turn 6 at 4 life with my opponent at 16 and a loaded board. Won the next turn lol. I don’t think this card is a must have by any means, but so far between WA and Vault of the Archangel, I’m starting to see why Zyrnak is including them.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
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I could see myself going -1 Night's Whisper and -1 Inquisition of Kozilek for 2x Wall of Omens.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Either way I'm hyped to be here, and hyped to see this deck getting attention.
PS: Also, I play a 2 of Whisper. Wouldn't go any higher or lower. Feels just right.
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/2073-bw-control
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Gideon Jura
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sorin, Grim Nemesis
3 Fatal Push
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Path to Exile
4 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
1 Anguished Unmaking
4 Lingering Souls
1 Damnation
1 Day of Judgment
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Wrath of God
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Field of Ruin
2 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
5 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
3 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Fragmentize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Rest in Peace
1 Runed Halo
2 Stony Silence
1 Rule of Law
2 Leyline of Sanctity
UWAzorius Titan ControlUW
BWOrzhov ControlBW
4 marsh flats
1 flooded strand
2 godless shrine
1 fetid heath
2 concealed courtyard
3 shambling vent
3 field of ruin
1 vault of the archangel
4 plains
3 swamp
spells
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
2 collective brutality
3 path to exile
3 fatal push
2 wall of omens
3 bitterblossom
4 lingering souls
1 liliana of the veil
3 gideon of the trials
3 gideon, ally of zendikar
2 sorin, solemn visitor
2 wrath of god
1 damnation
1 gideon jura
2 rest in peace
2 stony silence
3 lost legacy
1 surgical extraction
1 settle the wreckage
1 blessed alliance
1 runed halo
2 pithing needle
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Disenchant
I only play paper magic, so there is limited testing. So far the results have been mixed. Not sure I like the walls and I want to make space for something like Fulminator mage in the board. However, the archtype is definitley fun to play and strong in a creature heavy meta. The one thing I dislike is when you simply draw the wrong half of the deck, but I guess having no card selection is the flipside of not playing blue.
Awesome thread btw guys!