Last month, a player named Michael Neilson took this archetype to the SCG Invitational and managed to place 3rd with it. Since then, Saffron Olive highlighted it in an Instant Deck Tech, and there has been some testing and discussion that has mostly taken place in a Reddit thread. I have been heavily testing this deck and would really like to see it get some more traction, as I love it but have personally hit a plateau in optimizing/developing it.
Note: I am not the creator of this deck, and all credit goes to Neilson for brewing this up.
Essentially this is an old-style Prison deck in Mono-Green, using land destruction to lock the opponent out of the game, with an additional "1-card prison loop" as the creator calls it, otherwise known as the Eternal Command. The deck also just so happens to run for less than 200$ as of right now.
We have a massive focus on mana ramping into early LD spells, then Primal Command gives the ability to tutor for our threats while bouncing permanents from the opponents battlefield back onto the top of their deck. Then we use eternal witness to loop the effect, pulling more Eternal witnesses out of the deck to softloop until we run out, then we tutor for Sabertooth to bounce eternal witness, play her to pull Primal command, and continue to gain life and topdeck the opponents land ad-infinitum, locking their hand for as long as we decide, while our threats swing in for the finish. We can also use Serow/Slime to smash across an artifact/enchantment heavy board. Bramblecrush even gives us the ability to kill planeswalkers. And any card we need back we can pull with strategic use of eternal witness/serow.
Walking Ballista gives us much needed removal/blocking utility, and can be brought back with Ewit. Thragtusk gives us Lifegain on a big body with pseudo Persistence that is very resilient against any type of removal. Hornet Queen tends to end games as 5 flying deathtouchers is bad news for any board state.
A single Pendalhaven lends some legitimacy to blocking with all the 1/1 mana dorks we run, though in testing I have found it to be a tad underwhelming. I discuss additional nonbasic strategies at the botton of this post.
Don't forget, Sakura-Tribe Elder is not to be immediately sacrificed on playing it. Don't let it sit on the battlefield for another turn, but at least wait to see if you can get a block out of him, or bait for a lightning bolt before you sac.
In the sideboard Trinispheree is probably the most notable and useful piece, especially against aggro decks, as most of our spells cost 4 or more. I am also experimenting with Root Maze in this slot, and the more I do, the more I think one or the other belongs in the mainboard as at least a 2x. This is a prison deck after all, and while ensnaring bridge doesn't really fit well, Root Maze has amazing synergy with the topdeck loop, and Trinisphere stops pure aggro and burn decks dead in their tracks, and eases our lockout strategy, as we only need to keep them below 3 lands, and even if they have 3, they can only cast one spell per turn.
Cloudthresher is the original threat the creator ran in the deck, boasting the ability to flash in on an opponents turn after they cast+activate Jace/Liliana and finish him on our turn before Jace has a chance to bounce. Also happens to perform well against Affinity and Lingering souls, and at its least helpful its a flash-in blocker. I only run one of because I find the other threats to be too useful in all other matchups. However, As long as you're ahead 3 or more in life, a looped Cloudthresher becomes another win condition: Primal, Tutor for this/topdeck land, bounce it up and down with Serow for 2 life each turn, looped until opponent catches your drift and concedes.
Chameleon Colossus is one I'm hesistant on, and its why I only run one. It's a great card, but without another way to boost his power, its just a bit underwhelming, but it does pound black decks.
Obstinate Baloth is discard hate, especially against 8rack and Jund. Decent against Burn but Thragtusk is better for that matchup.
Scavenging Ooze is our graveyard hate and what a deck to run scoozy in. Having nearly always open mana, scooze can be incredibly core to the punishing of decks that play from their graveyard.
Thrun has been an anti-control staple for a while. Boseiju does much better than Pendelhaven in this matchup. Tyrant is our finisher.
Dungrove Elder - probably deserves 2 slots for the sheer amount of forests we're able to drop by turn 3. Maybe even a mainboard slot.
Fracturing Gust - this replaces Creeping Corrosion for me, and what a good card it is against Bogles, Mono-White Prison, Free Win Red, Lantern Control, Affinity, Tron, you name it.
There are many intricacies to this deck that are further explored in the links above and I'm excited to see how many others you all are able to discover, and to work with you all as we begin to develop and optimize towards getting a solid Primer in place.
Potentials for the threat slots
Primeval Titan - This card has quickly become the ramp target for the deck. not only do we swing with a 6/6 next turn, he can pull two Treetop Villages if we run them, and he takes us to 8 lands as soon as he comes down, which is where we can start playing eternal witness as well as any spell in our graveyard in one turn.
Woodland Bellower - Summons an Ewit, (free, same-turn graveyard to hand recursion), Scooze, or Dungrove Elder for free. Great if you prefer to have the graveyard recursion over the land summons, but no trample.
Deus of Calamity - 6/6 for 5 with pseudo-"Annihilator 1" - One of my favorite cards to really nail down the coffin
Engulfing Slagwurm - 7/7 with pseudo-deathtouch/lifelink. Whether this is worth running over the others is questionable but it does punish attacking us, and makes the decision to block it even more painful.
Primeval Titan - As good as this card is on its own, using it to pull out a Boseiju, Who Shelters All against a control deck would turn the tide, as it gives us free reign to chip away at their land or just Eternal Command while we swing for 6 trample every turn.
Something I am just not sold on yet, is 1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in place of Pendelhaven. I feel that, especially with Courser of Kruphix and Primeval Titan on mainboard, Nykthos could do a lot of work mid game, and could especially make Walking ballista an easy wincon. Its not optimal to see in an opening hand with Utopia Sprawl, but the advantage it could give is huge. We could even throw a Treetop Village in alongside it to get the most value out of Primeval Titan's tutor, or side in Boseiju against control decks. These cards get even better with a Garruk Wildspeaker or even Nissa, Worldwaker on mainboard.
Overall though, with the current mana ramp package, this deck does not like nonbasic lands, I would not run more than 2 nonbasics and that is 100% only if Primeval Titan is mainboard.
I've run this list for the last month, finishing 5-0-1 last night. At this point, I'm 9-1-3 with the below list. The changes I made going into last night were -1 Acidic Slime for the 3rd Courser of Kruphix. The occasional topdeck filtering and lifegain were great, as well as the roadblock on Turns 2 & 3 when we didn't have LD.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and the deuce Treetop Villages have saved my rear more than once, by powering out the 1-card loops, grabbing a team of blockers, or pushing final damage through against my control opponent ala Primeval Titan. In honor of one of the Reddit posters, I'm calling this Green Lantern as a nod to the inevitability and plodding gameplay of the Lantern decks. Well, that and because it's only limited by your imagination (and meta), just like the lantern's ring. Anyhow, here's the list. I'm happy to welcome any card choice questions, but I'd surmise a lot of these are obvious given the OP's awesome primer writeup.
I've run this list for the last month, finishing 5-0-1 last night. At this point, I'm 9-1-3 with the below list. The changes I made going into last night were -1 Acidic Slime for the 3rd Courser of Kruphix. The occasional topdeck filtering and lifegain were great, as well as the roadblock on Turns 2 & 3 when we didn't have LD.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and the deuce Treetop Villages have saved my rear more than once, by powering out the 1-card loops, grabbing a team of blockers, or pushing final damage through against my control opponent ala Primeval Titan. In honor of one of the Reddit posters, I'm calling this Green Lantern as a nod to the inevitability and plodding gameplay of the Lantern decks. Well, that and because it's only limited by your imagination (and meta), just like the lantern's ring. Anyhow, here's the list. I'm happy to welcome any card choice questions, but I'd surmise a lot of these are obvious given the OP's awesome primer writeup.
Hey! Thanks for the shoutout, and I'd love to field a few questions about your build.
1. Which matchups have been the most difficult for you, and do you think the more traditional build would have faired better in those matchups?
2. Which matchups do you think your build faired better than the traditional build would have?
3. Have you considered swapping a treetop with a basic forest for maximum efficiency with Utopia Sprawl? If not, why do you choose to run more nonbasic lands than you can reliably tutor for?
4. If we are going the route of slightly more nonbasic lands, and you already have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx with two Primeval Titan in the mainboard, what do you think of the following: Dropping a Treetop for a Kessig Wolf Run, and a forest for a single Mountain? We'd be moving more towards a Green Devotion build at that point, but if we're talking Prime Time/Nykthos/Garruk, its worth discussing.
5. What made you want to mainboard a card that seems as narrow as Chameleon Colossus?
7. Have you considered running Reclaiming Vines to give yourself a chance to hit Artifact/Enchantment Creatures as well as the Bramblecrush for Planeswalkers?
8. Do you feel secure in only running 1x Stampeding Wildebeests, as crucial to the combo as that card is? Have you had it removed and lost the game because of it?
9. What sort of hands do you look to keep?
10. Finally, what are the ideal lines of play that you've identified? I'm especially interested in how Garruk works for you.
Hey! Thanks for the shoutout, and I'd love to field a few questions about your build.
1. Which matchups have been the most difficult for you, and do you think the more traditional build would have faired better in those matchups?
2. Which matchups do you think your build faired better than the traditional build would have?
3. Have you considered swapping a treetop with a basic forest for maximum efficiency with Utopia Sprawl? If not, why do you choose to run more nonbasic lands than you can reliably tutor for?
4. If we are going the route of slightly more nonbasic lands, and you already have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx with two Primeval Titan in the mainboard, what do you think of the following: Dropping a Treetop for a Kessig Wolf Run, and a forest for a single Mountain? We'd be moving more towards a Green Devotion build at that point, but if we're talking Prime Time/Nykthos/Garruk, its worth discussing.
5. What made you want to mainboard a card that seems as narrow as Chameleon Colossus?
7. Have you considered running Reclaiming Vines to give yourself a chance to hit Artifact/Enchantment Creatures as well as the Bramblecrush for Planeswalkers?
8. Do you feel secure in only running 1x Stampeding Wildebeests, as crucial to the combo as that card is? Have you had it removed and lost the game because of it?
9. What sort of hands do you look to keep?
10. Finally, what are the ideal lines of play that you've identified? I'm especially interested in how Garruk works for you.
1. You may laugh, but my most difficult matchups were both against U/B Mill. They have so many ways to dump your GY off one card and run up to 26 land. They only need to stick the 1 drop crab and they'll go from there with fetches. That, and Remand for your Primal Command to prevent you from shuffling your GY back into your library. In the 2 times I've faced it, I was 1 turn away from stabilizing and winning. Outside that, D&T with 8 maindecked LD lands can be backbreaking for us, but not impossible. You need to sequence your spells perfectly and wait to see how they've established themselves. If they are spending turns Quartering your Utopia Sprawl'd lands they aren't playing their dudes and you can start working on their mana base on a fair level (casting 4CMC spells on turn 4, etc).
2. I'm not so sure I'm ready to call anything "traditional." Neilson's certainly the inspiration, and all credit is due to him for this in the form that it's in (as well as the redditors). However, it's a mashup of a few decks as-is, and I wasn't having a ton of fun with the all-in approach of LD. Neilson ran 17 maindecked LD spells and Cloudthresher as the windmill beatdown, I chose to develop a more midrange strategy that was more resilient to a deck that nukes your mana dorks or kills enchanted lands. I'm not saying it's better, but it has different lines of play and likely different strengths and weaknesses. I'd honestly have to play more before I could give a full answer to that, but I will say I loved playing against any type of control. Jeskai, U/W, and Tron variants were actually pretty smooth matchups, along with the nearly auto-win that is burn. We have such a diversified set of threatening spells that need countered and, in the case of a list sporting a singleton Thragtusk alongside 4 Primal Command Burn just gets crushed under inevitability, through Skullcrack because we can keep them off critical burn spells until they run out of stuff to do with Plow Under (as well as the diet Plow Under mode of Command) via recursion.
3. I run the 2 treetops because I like seeing both when games go longer (past turn 7 or 8). Nonbasics make up a small portion of my manabase and can certainly make things tough if they're all I see opening hand, which hasn't yet happened, though I'm sure it can and will.
4. I don't think KWR and a singleton mountain is a bad idea, but that's swapping 2 green-producing sources for a colorless and red-producing source, which will certainly exacerbate the issues you're concerned with.
5. Chameleon Colossus is narrow in its protection, not its utility. Yeah, sometimes the pro-black is irrelevant, but it also survives burn spells by activating its ability, can randomly swing for 64 as your topdeck, and utterly blanks Death's Shadow. It's won me more than a few games outside the matchups its in the main for, so it's earned its spot..for now.
6. Not really? Not yet? Too early to tell? I'm not quite sure on the ratios yet. I have 5 virtual copies of Slime in the main if I count Primal Command, which I do. Again, I've moved away from the 17 dedicated LD spells and I still have 2 Bramblecrushs as a "blow up anything" card, so I don't see it as necessary. There were games where I wished I had another Courser for its toughness instead of the slime sitting in my hand and a 3/3 on the opponents side of the field. Courser, with Mwoncuvuli Acid-Moss, land drops, and Primeval Titan has gained me loads of life, and that's to say nothing of giving us a turn 3 play and topdeck selection. More testing is needed though cause I'm never satisfied with the ratios between those two cards.
7. I haven't, but I'm not opposed to it. I ran Neilson's 2nd list, card-for-card at my first magic tournament in 7 years (first ever modern tournament). The current iteration is based off my experience and what type of deck I wanted to pilot.
8. Yes. On its own, it's mostly a junk creature that doesn't interact well with a lot of the creatures in my toolbox build (or Neilson's stock list). It's counter-tempo in a lot of circumstances to bounce a dude next turn and a terrible topdeck. The combo you're referring to isn't what I'd call a win-more, but once you set it up - it's unlikely you can lose. The combo isn't the point of the deck, but adds to its inevitability.
9. Anything with a turn 3 play, even if it's just Courser. But ideally 2 Forest, 1 Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk, Acid-Moss/Bramblecrush/Plow Under/Primal Command are pretty nuts.
10. Garruk has been an all star. He makes Utopia Sprawl'd Forests amazing. His ultimate has won me a ton of games. His Beats stave off aggressive decks. He's proven himself time and time again generally, like in MTG, and he fits in nicely with this deck. I'll post more when I can sit down and think of it a bit more clearly.
Hey! Thanks for the shoutout, and I'd love to field a few questions about your build.
1. Which matchups have been the most difficult for you, and do you think the more traditional build would have faired better in those matchups?
2. Which matchups do you think your build faired better than the traditional build would have?
3. Have you considered swapping a treetop with a basic forest for maximum efficiency with Utopia Sprawl? If not, why do you choose to run more nonbasic lands than you can reliably tutor for?
4. If we are going the route of slightly more nonbasic lands, and you already have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx with two Primeval Titan in the mainboard, what do you think of the following: Dropping a Treetop for a Kessig Wolf Run, and a forest for a single Mountain? We'd be moving more towards a Green Devotion build at that point, but if we're talking Prime Time/Nykthos/Garruk, its worth discussing.
5. What made you want to mainboard a card that seems as narrow as Chameleon Colossus?
7. Have you considered running Reclaiming Vines to give yourself a chance to hit Artifact/Enchantment Creatures as well as the Bramblecrush for Planeswalkers?
8. Do you feel secure in only running 1x Stampeding Wildebeests, as crucial to the combo as that card is? Have you had it removed and lost the game because of it?
9. What sort of hands do you look to keep?
10. Finally, what are the ideal lines of play that you've identified? I'm especially interested in how Garruk works for you.
1. You may laugh, but my most difficult matchups were both against U/B Mill. They have so many ways to dump your GY off one card and run up to 26 land. They only need to stick the 1 drop crab and they'll go from there with fetches. That, and Remand for your Primal Command to prevent you from shuffling your GY back into your library. In the 2 times I've faced it, I was 1 turn away from stabilizing and winning. Outside that, D&T with 8 maindecked LD lands can be backbreaking for us, but not impossible. You need to sequence your spells perfectly and wait to see how they've established themselves. If they are spending turns Quartering your Utopia Sprawl'd lands they aren't playing their dudes and you can start working on their mana base on a fair level (casting 4CMC spells on turn 4, etc).
2. I'm not so sure I'm ready to call anything "traditional." Neilson's certainly the inspiration, and all credit is due to him for this in the form that it's in (as well as the redditors). However, it's a mashup of a few decks as-is, and I wasn't having a ton of fun with the all-in approach of LD. Neilson ran 17 maindecked LD spells and Cloudthresher as the windmill beatdown, I chose to develop a more midrange strategy that was more resilient to a deck that nukes your mana dorks or kills enchanted lands. I'm not saying it's better, but it has different lines of play and likely different strengths and weaknesses. I'd honestly have to play more before I could give a full answer to that, but I will say I loved playing against any type of control. Jeskai, U/W, and Tron variants were actually pretty smooth matchups, along with the nearly auto-win that is burn. We have such a diversified set of threatening spells that need countered and, in the case of a list sporting a singleton Thragtusk alongside 4 Primal Command Burn just gets crushed under inevitability, through Skullcrack because we can keep them off critical burn spells until they run out of stuff to do with Plow Under (as well as the diet Plow Under mode of Command) via recursion.
3. I run the 2 treetops because I like seeing both when games go longer (past turn 7 or 8). Nonbasics make up a small portion of my manabase and can certainly make things tough if they're all I see opening hand, which hasn't yet happened, though I'm sure it can and will.
4. I don't think KWR and a singleton mountain is a bad idea, but that's swapping 2 green-producing sources for a colorless and red-producing source, which will certainly exacerbate the issues you're concerned with.
5. Chameleon Colossus is narrow in its protection, not its utility. Yeah, sometimes the pro-black is irrelevant, but it also survives burn spells by activating its ability, can randomly swing for 64 as your topdeck, and utterly blanks Death's Shadow. It's won me more than a few games outside the matchups its in the main for, so it's earned its spot..for now.
6. Not really? Not yet? Too early to tell? I'm not quite sure on the ratios yet. I have 5 virtual copies of Slime in the main if I count Primal Command, which I do. Again, I've moved away from the 17 dedicated LD spells and I still have 2 Bramblecrushs as a "blow up anything" card, so I don't see it as necessary. There were games where I wished I had another Courser for its toughness instead of the slime sitting in my hand and a 3/3 on the opponents side of the field. Courser, with Mwoncuvuli Acid-Moss, land drops, and Primeval Titan has gained me loads of life, and that's to say nothing of giving us a turn 3 play and topdeck selection. More testing is needed though cause I'm never satisfied with the ratios between those two cards.
7. I haven't, but I'm not opposed to it. I ran Neilson's 2nd list, card-for-card at my first magic tournament in 7 years (first ever modern tournament). The current iteration is based off my experience and what type of deck I wanted to pilot.
8. Yes. On its own, it's mostly a junk creature that doesn't interact well with a lot of the creatures in my toolbox build (or Neilson's stock list). It's counter-tempo in a lot of circumstances to bounce a dude next turn and a terrible topdeck. The combo you're referring to isn't what I'd call a win-more, but once you set it up - it's unlikely you can lose. The combo isn't the point of the deck, but adds to its inevitability.
9. Anything with a turn 3 play, even if it's just Courser. But ideally 2 Forest, 1 Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk, Acid-Moss/Bramblecrush/Plow Under/Primal Command are pretty nuts.
10. Garruk has been an all star. He makes Utopia Sprawl'd Forests amazing. His ultimate has won me a ton of games. His Beats stave off aggressive decks. He's proven himself time and time again generally, like in MTG, and he fits in nicely with this deck. I'll post more when I can sit down and think of it a bit more clearly.
Hope that helps!
2. I'm with you on the terminology, I just meant traditional in the sense that Neilson's list is what I'd consider the baseline to be modified from. Its focused, fast, and simple in what it does. I'm definitely interested in testing out different modifications to it and several of yours are already in my new running build as well, though the changes in my numbers are a bit more conservative to start out.
3. Treetops have definitely made a massive difference for me in my MonoG Stompy deck, so I'm adding in one for now because I do like it a lot. I'm also starting to recognize that the early mana ramping just doesn't seem to be moving towards enough muscle sometimes, and I have to settle for soft locking while I draw into threats longer than I'd like, so Treetop seems a good solution to this. I also didn't notice that Primeval tutors lands when he attacks as well...that really makes the difference. By the way, while we're talking about tutor value...check out the possible synergy with an attacking Primeval and Panglacial Wurm. Titan > Nykthos > attacking Titan > activate Nykthos > Wurm.
4. I would run those two in place of any Treetops and alongside a single Nykthos to minimize the impact as much as possible, but yes, we do lose green sources, though all I'm really worried about is suboptimal hands with Utopia. We can even Utopia the Mountain for green if we really need to.
6. Courser is definitely a great addition, and I'm running 1 right now to test. Like I said, I like to stay conservative in changes and slowly move out. I think as long as we have 4x Eternal Witnesses, dropping down to a 1-of in Slime is a safe bet, though having a few deathtouch blockers out is a really nice thing to have sometimes.
8. This is a good point, and I think I've been prioritizing the setup of the loop too much. Out comes one for me as well.
Good points overall and thanks for your input. Let me know if you'd like to help with the primer, I'd like to narrow down a few different builds for it and I think yours is a good one. Interestingly, I wanted to get into Green Devotion but balked at the price tag, and stumbled across this deck instead...and then your build turns out to be a lighter version of Green Devo with all the fun of the mono green control as well.
2. I'm with you on the terminology, I just meant traditional in the sense that Neilson's list is what I'd consider the baseline to be modified from. Its focused, fast, and simple in what it does. I'm definitely interested in testing out different modifications to it and several of yours are already in my new running build as well, though the changes in my numbers are a bit more conservative to start out.
3. Treetops have definitely made a massive difference for me in my MonoG Stompy deck, so I'm adding in one for now because I do like it a lot. I'm also starting to recognize that the early mana ramping just doesn't seem to be moving towards enough muscle sometimes, and I have to settle for soft locking while I draw into threats longer than I'd like, so Treetop seems a good solution to this. I also didn't notice that Primeval tutors lands when he attacks as well...that really makes the difference. By the way, while we're talking about tutor value...check out the possible synergy with an attacking Primeval and Panglacial Wurm. Titan > Nykthos > attacking Titan > activate Nykthos > Wurm.
4. I would run those two in place of any Treetops and alongside a single Nykthos to minimize the impact as much as possible, but yes, we do lose green sources, though all I'm really worried about is suboptimal hands with Utopia. We can even Utopia the Mountain for green if we really need to.
6. Courser is definitely a great addition, and I'm running 1 right now to test. Like I said, I like to stay conservative in changes and slowly move out. I think as long as we have 4x Eternal Witnesses, dropping down to a 1-of in Slime is a safe bet, though having a few deathtouch blockers out is a really nice thing to have sometimes.
8. This is a good point, and I think I've been prioritizing the setup of the loop too much. Out comes one for me as well.
Good points overall and thanks for your input. Let me know if you'd like to help with the primer, I'd like to narrow down a few different builds for it and I think yours is a good one. Interestingly, I wanted to get into Green Devotion but balked at the price tag, and stumbled across this deck instead...and then your build turns out to be a lighter version of Green Devo with all the fun of the mono green control as well.
2. I see what you mean now. Neilson's list was obviously successful for him, and he's been testing and refining it for much longer than I have. At some point, he chose to drive in a more linear direction with the cheap ramp and LD because he found that to be successful for what he was trying to achieve and it landed him a top 8 at a large tournament. I want to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with his, while I will admit there may be many things wrong with mine. However, being linear in such a diverse format in Modern has both upsides and downsides. He's more consistent, but he's also weaker to decks can blank his early plays and nail land drops through selection. Any deck packing Lightning Bolt and Mana Leak can be a challenge if the pilot kills your mana dork, blows up a Utopia'd land, and/or counters your business spells. It's not un-winnable by a mile, but the all-in approach can open doors we'd rather like to keep closed. Skred Red would be nightmarish, as their Skreds progressively get better, they run Mind Stone for ramp, can ramp off of Koth of the Hammer, and can drive into much more unanswerable threats than he can.
3. There's something to be said for reliably being able to stick a 4/5-mana LD spell on turns 2 and 3 every game, but it's a more vulnerable strategy. Adding to the nonbasics doesn't make it a whole lot more vulnerable, but it does effect it. I suppose it all came down to a cost/reward ratio, and I looked at what I gained from the nonbasics vs. what it would cost me. Nykthos and Treetop offer unique lines of play, even if I'm grabbing a Titan with a T3 Command, I'm setting up 2 additional 3/3s with trample (12 total damage with Titan), setting (or bluffing) 2 3/3 blockers), or picking up a Nykthos so I can start doing stuff after early acceleration/LD. Panglacial Wurm looks nasty and may be worth attention.
4. Utopia Sprawl won't enchant a Mountain, it has to enchant a forest. I looked at that with KWR, and I looked at splashing some snow actually for Skred, Into the North, and Scrying Sheets, but it really just became a worse version of Ponza.
6. Nothing wrong with being conservative with an established build, but let me give you something to consider. Neilson's list ran 17 dedicated LD spells and 11 1/1 mana dorks, right? I'm running 6 1/1 mana dorks and 14 LD spells. Our ratios are:
28% LD / 18% Mana Dorks for Neilson
23% LD / 10% Mana dorks for me
At the end of the day, I'm still sitting at nearly 1/4 of my deck being dedicated towards LD, with spells that can hit other permanents in the main. I have a tenth of my deck dedicated to helping Utopia Sprawl power out early plays, but I'm also running 3 Garruk and 2 Prime Time, which puts me back at 11 acceleration spells, just at a different CMC, but with significantly more utility than an Elvish Mystic or Sakura-Tribe Elder. This is of course ignoring Acid-Moss' ramp, which only furthers our goals and acts as a 2-for-1 piece of card advantage. Just for the luls, I actually thought of running Troll Ascetic / Courser split. Now that I think of it, it may not be a terrible idea to test..
8. The loop is worth keeping in, believe me, but I'd much rather have a tutorable silver bullet as the 2nd copy. You don't really need the loop itself until you run out of LD spells or Witnesses to grab with Command, which can take a few turns. Most decks cannot survived a few sustained turns of diet plow under/actual plow under/getting their faced caved in by 6/6 bodies with tramble (or a random 64/64 Colossus, which we power with Nykthos).
As far as the other stuff, don't despair on accidentally being a bit of green devotion. My list has Garruk, man lands, toolbox, and Prime Time on purpose. It can certainly get absurd devotion plays off Nykthos, but it's not our focus, just something we can easily set up. I do want to find room for Harmonize and Nissa, Worldwaker to further entrench us as control, as well as more diversification in our bullet list. Don't be afraid to toss conservatism out the window when you're theory crafting, at least to goldfish a few hundred times. I've used Tappedout's "playtest" feature extensively just to see what my board state looks like off random draws more than a hundred times. Sometimes it reveals what's too much of a good thing and sometimes it lets me know I'm on to something.
I think we're on to something.
@Amicdeep: I'm not ignoring you, btw. I love your ideas! What's a border post? (sorry, been away a LONG time). Do you have any other big bombs that are tough to kill?
2. I'm with you on the terminology, I just meant traditional in the sense that Neilson's list is what I'd consider the baseline to be modified from. Its focused, fast, and simple in what it does. I'm definitely interested in testing out different modifications to it and several of yours are already in my new running build as well, though the changes in my numbers are a bit more conservative to start out.
3. Treetops have definitely made a massive difference for me in my MonoG Stompy deck, so I'm adding in one for now because I do like it a lot. I'm also starting to recognize that the early mana ramping just doesn't seem to be moving towards enough muscle sometimes, and I have to settle for soft locking while I draw into threats longer than I'd like, so Treetop seems a good solution to this. I also didn't notice that Primeval tutors lands when he attacks as well...that really makes the difference. By the way, while we're talking about tutor value...check out the possible synergy with an attacking Primeval and Panglacial Wurm. Titan > Nykthos > attacking Titan > activate Nykthos > Wurm.
4. I would run those two in place of any Treetops and alongside a single Nykthos to minimize the impact as much as possible, but yes, we do lose green sources, though all I'm really worried about is suboptimal hands with Utopia. We can even Utopia the Mountain for green if we really need to.
6. Courser is definitely a great addition, and I'm running 1 right now to test. Like I said, I like to stay conservative in changes and slowly move out. I think as long as we have 4x Eternal Witnesses, dropping down to a 1-of in Slime is a safe bet, though having a few deathtouch blockers out is a really nice thing to have sometimes.
8. This is a good point, and I think I've been prioritizing the setup of the loop too much. Out comes one for me as well.
Good points overall and thanks for your input. Let me know if you'd like to help with the primer, I'd like to narrow down a few different builds for it and I think yours is a good one. Interestingly, I wanted to get into Green Devotion but balked at the price tag, and stumbled across this deck instead...and then your build turns out to be a lighter version of Green Devo with all the fun of the mono green control as well.
2. I see what you mean now. Neilson's list was obviously successful for him, and he's been testing and refining it for much longer than I have. At some point, he chose to drive in a more linear direction with the cheap ramp and LD because he found that to be successful for what he was trying to achieve and it landed him a top 8 at a large tournament. I want to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with his, while I will admit there may be many things wrong with mine. However, being linear in such a diverse format in Modern has both upsides and downsides. He's more consistent, but he's also weaker to decks can blank his early plays and nail land drops through selection. Any deck packing Lightning Bolt and Mana Leak can be a challenge if the pilot kills your mana dork, blows up a Utopia'd land, and/or counters your business spells. It's not un-winnable by a mile, but the all-in approach can open doors we'd rather like to keep closed. Skred Red would be nightmarish, as their Skreds progressively get better, they run Mind Stone for ramp, can ramp off of Koth of the Hammer, and can drive into much more unanswerable threats than he can.
3. There's something to be said for reliably being able to stick a 4/5-mana LD spell on turns 2 and 3 every game, but it's a more vulnerable strategy. Adding to the nonbasics doesn't make it a whole lot more vulnerable, but it does effect it. I suppose it all came down to a cost/reward ratio, and I looked at what I gained from the nonbasics vs. what it would cost me. Nykthos and Treetop offer unique lines of play, even if I'm grabbing a Titan with a T3 Command, I'm setting up 2 additional 3/3s with trample (12 total damage with Titan), setting (or bluffing) 2 3/3 blockers), or picking up a Nykthos so I can start doing stuff after early acceleration/LD. Panglacial Wurm looks nasty and may be worth attention.
4. Utopia Sprawl won't enchant a Mountain, it has to enchant a forest. I looked at that with KWR, and I looked at splashing some snow actually for Skred, Into the North, and Scrying Sheets, but it really just became a worse version of Ponza.
6. Nothing wrong with being conservative with an established build, but let me give you something to consider. Neilson's list ran 17 dedicated LD spells and 11 1/1 mana dorks, right? I'm running 6 1/1 mana dorks and 14 LD spells. Our ratios are:
28% LD / 18% Mana Dorks for Neilson
23% LD / 10% Mana dorks for me
At the end of the day, I'm still sitting at nearly 1/4 of my deck being dedicated towards LD, with spells that can hit other permanents in the main. I have a tenth of my deck dedicated to helping Utopia Sprawl power out early plays, but I'm also running 3 Garruk and 2 Prime Time, which puts me back at 11 acceleration spells, just at a different CMC, but with significantly more utility than an Elvish Mystic or Sakura-Tribe Elder. This is of course ignoring Acid-Moss' ramp, which only furthers our goals and acts as a 2-for-1 piece of card advantage. Just for the luls, I actually thought of running Troll Ascetic / Courser split. Now that I think of it, it may not be a terrible idea to test..
8. The loop is worth keeping in, believe me, but I'd much rather have a tutorable silver bullet as the 2nd copy. You don't really need the loop itself until you run out of LD spells or Witnesses to grab with Command, which can take a few turns. Most decks cannot survived a few sustained turns of diet plow under/actual plow under/getting their faced caved in by 6/6 bodies with tramble (or a random 64/64 Colossus, which we power with Nykthos).
As far as the other stuff, don't despair on accidentally being a bit of green devotion. My list has Garruk, man lands, toolbox, and Prime Time on purpose. It can certainly get absurd devotion plays off Nykthos, but it's not our focus, just something we can easily set up. I do want to find room for Harmonize and Nissa, Worldwaker to further entrench us as control, as well as more diversification in our bullet list. Don't be afraid to toss conservatism out the window when you're theory crafting, at least to goldfish a few hundred times. I've used Tappedout's "playtest" feature extensively just to see what my board state looks like off random draws more than a hundred times. Sometimes it reveals what's too much of a good thing and sometimes it lets me know I'm on to something.
I think we're on to something.
@Amicdeep: I'm not ignoring you, btw. I love your ideas! What's a border post? (sorry, been away a LONG time). Do you have any other big bombs that are tough to kill?
2. I do think Courser especially gives us a notable advantage T2/3 and entrenches us in a way that the deck was missing, as well as ensuring our draws will less often be wasted on lands. I also like the additional threats you've added, I always felt like 3 wasn't quite enough.
6. I actually really like the Tribe Elders, and they have a hidden card advantage as well: The ability to block before sacrificing for a land pull. Certainly no Garruk, but now that I've taken out Pendelhaven, I might take out the Mystics all together just so I can keep in some Tribe elders and make room for Garruk.
8. I think you're right, and I also think that replacing the Serow with a Temur Sabertooth would give that slot the resiliency it needs as the sole lynchpin of the combo. Sure, it slows it down, but most of the time you're not playing Ewit and Primal on the same turn anyways. Plus, it gives us the option not to bounce if we don't want to, which could be well worth the cost.
While we're at it, we could even partially replace our mana ramp package to include Wall of Roots, Overgrown Battlement, and possibly Wall of Mulch to give Carven Caryatid further use. Maybe a defender build is something to look at.
However, the more i look at her, Nissa, Worldwaker seems like a winmore card to me, and the extra mana cost doesn't really justify the slight advantage she has over Garruk. Her ult also takes longer to set up than Garruk's. If we could find a way to run her as a one of and tutor for her, it might be worth it, as having both her and Garruk out would be brutal.
Some more food for thought, I've played against Ponza with my stompy deck a few times in the last couple of weeks, and couldn't help but notice the similarities between our deck and theirs...and what Ponza did better. I think we should have a conversation as to what sets us apart from Ponza/Green Devo/Eternal Command, where this deck's identity lies, and how to keep those boundaries in mind as we experiment. We want to maintain a strong, unique core strategy that does its own thing and does that thing better than adjacent decks, rather than becoming a mashup of several decks at once that...kinda does it all.
So I'd start off with:
We're a control deck, specifically a prison deck. Our ideal goal is to ramp into land destruction as a temp play and timewalk our opponent, while we simultaneously increase our resources and land big threats onto an empty board as early as T3-4. Walking Ballista is our main threat filling the slot of Masticore in the original Prison build. Ballista can block and clear the board of cheap creatures against our worst matchup, aggro. We mainboard additional threats as game enders, which we either use alongside Ballista or instead of it, depending on the boardstate.
We're different from Green Devo and Ponza in that we trade some explosiveness for the ability to lock the opponent out of the game while we build up our board state. We ramp into tempo offsets first, then threats. If we start falling behind, we lock the game down and gain health until we stabilize. Our deck doesn't have much in the way of threat density, so we must play the right threat, at the right time, onto the right boardstate. We trade the top end of green devo for midgame stability and to increase inevitability. We trade Ponza's ability to quickly disrupt and go wide/hard for additional tempo advantages, more effective disruption, better threat selection, and more options all around.
The prison element of the deck is not our ideal wincon but it is our fallback, our stabilizer, our way to draw cards while our opponent does not, and our way to select threats. And getting there as fast as possible, while preventing our opponent from getting ahead first, is first and foremost. Without the prison element, we are just a slower Ponza, or a weaker Green Devo, so while those two are natural directions to head in when developing, we need to be careful to retain the core elements that make our deck different. To me, that is:
4x Eternal Witness
4x Primal Command
1x Sabertooth (still not 100% sold on this slot as a 1x)
3x Plow Under
4x Acidmoss
1x Walking Ballista
1x Acidic Slime
4x Arbor Elf
4x Utopia Sprawl
6x Additional ramp slots (Mystic, Sakura, Courser, Garruk)
2x Threat slots (Ballista, Thragtusk, Hornets, Titan, Elderscale)
The above feels like the immovable core to me. Even going 1 less on any of them just doesn't feel right. However, the rest of the deck seems totally open to experimentation. The deck can run better with all nonbasics in certain circumstances. Or a Nykthos. Or Treetops. Or more ramp slots, or more slime, or additional threats. Its up to us to find out which list is best, or which ones are competitive enough that saying which is better is a hard call.
Some more food for thought, I've played against Ponza with my stompy deck a few times in the last couple of weeks, and couldn't help but notice the similarities between our deck and theirs...and what Ponza did better. I think we should have a conversation as to what sets us apart from Ponza/Green Devo/Eternal Command, where this deck's identity lies, and how to keep those boundaries in mind as we experiment. We want to maintain a strong, unique core strategy that does its own thing and does that thing better than adjacent decks, rather than becoming a mashup of several decks at once that...kinda does it all.
So I'd start off with:
We're a control deck, specifically a prison deck. Our ideal goal is to ramp into land destruction as a temp play and timewalk our opponent, while we simultaneously increase our resources and land big threats onto an empty board as early as T3-4. Walking Ballista is our main threat filling the slot of Masticore in the original Prison build. Ballista can block and clear the board of cheap creatures against our worst matchup, aggro. We mainboard additional threats as game enders, which we either use alongside Ballista or instead of it, depending on the boardstate.
We're different from Green Devo and Ponza in that we trade some explosiveness for the ability to lock the opponent out of the game while we build up our board state. We ramp into tempo offsets first, then threats. If we start falling behind, we lock the game down and gain health until we stabilize. Our deck doesn't have much in the way of threat density, so we must play the right threat, at the right time, onto the right boardstate. We trade the top end of green devo for midgame stability and to increase inevitability. We trade Ponza's ability to quickly disrupt and go wide/hard for additional tempo advantages, more effective disruption, better threat selection, and more options all around.
The prison element of the deck is not our ideal wincon but it is our fallback, our stabilizer, our way to draw cards while our opponent does not, and our way to select threats. Without the prison element, we are just a slower Ponza, or a weaker Green Devo.
All of this ^. We're eminently customizable based off of our metas and can tailor suite our threat package and control cards to what we're seeing / expect to see. Your prison comment reminded me of some things I'm working through, namely Trinisphere moved from side to main and mainboarded Root Maze. We'd really be a prison deck there, with our "core" package in place, which I believe to be this:
Obviously the ratios can change depending on how deep into LD you want/need to be, but that's been my starting point each time. I have 3 E witnesses as my minimum and usually 2 Slime as a baseline, but as with everything - we can tweak. I think you'd be surprised to find just how many flex spots there are. If we eschew away from Elf/Sprawl, our mana package can change to utility walls, Garruk, etc.
Some more food for thought, I've played against Ponza with my stompy deck a few times in the last couple of weeks, and couldn't help but notice the similarities between our deck and theirs...and what Ponza did better. I think we should have a conversation as to what sets us apart from Ponza/Green Devo/Eternal Command, where this deck's identity lies, and how to keep those boundaries in mind as we experiment. We want to maintain a strong, unique core strategy that does its own thing and does that thing better than adjacent decks, rather than becoming a mashup of several decks at once that...kinda does it all.
So I'd start off with:
We're a control deck, specifically a prison deck. Our ideal goal is to ramp into land destruction as a temp play and timewalk our opponent, while we simultaneously increase our resources and land big threats onto an empty board as early as T3-4. Walking Ballista is our main threat filling the slot of Masticore in the original Prison build. Ballista can block and clear the board of cheap creatures against our worst matchup, aggro. We mainboard additional threats as game enders, which we either use alongside Ballista or instead of it, depending on the boardstate.
We're different from Green Devo and Ponza in that we trade some explosiveness for the ability to lock the opponent out of the game while we build up our board state. We ramp into tempo offsets first, then threats. If we start falling behind, we lock the game down and gain health until we stabilize. Our deck doesn't have much in the way of threat density, so we must play the right threat, at the right time, onto the right boardstate. We trade the top end of green devo for midgame stability and to increase inevitability. We trade Ponza's ability to quickly disrupt and go wide/hard for additional tempo advantages, more effective disruption, better threat selection, and more options all around.
The prison element of the deck is not our ideal wincon but it is our fallback, our stabilizer, our way to draw cards while our opponent does not, and our way to select threats. Without the prison element, we are just a slower Ponza, or a weaker Green Devo.
All of this ^. We're eminently customizable based off of our metas and can tailor suite our threat package and control cards to what we're seeing / expect to see. Your prison comment reminded me of some things I'm working through, namely Trinisphere moved from side to main and mainboarded Root Maze. We'd really be a prison deck there, with our "core" package in place, which I believe to be this:
Obviously the ratios can change depending on how deep into LD you want/need to be, but that's been my starting point each time. I have 3 E witnesses as my minimum and usually 2 Slime as a baseline, but as with everything - we can tweak. I think you'd be surprised to find just how many flex spots there are. If we eschew away from Elf/Sprawl, our mana package can change to utility walls, Garruk, etc.
I've been making sure to side in 3x Trini against aggro and it makes a huge difference, I'd say they're normally our worst matchup. Locking all spells at 3 > and keeping their mana at <3 is a truely crippling lockout effect, though it requires a bit of an ideal hand to pull off. I don't really like to drop it immediately against other matchups, as it makes our own ramp quite expensive to play, but once I have 4-5 mana sources Trini is coming down. I've been trying to find space for at least 2 in the main as it shuts down a lot of early strategies.
I saw another build that used Ensnaring Bridge but I'm not sure that really fits our strategy well, unless we stick to the Cloudthresher bounce, which I'd really rather not do.
I've been making sure to side in 3x Trini against aggro and it makes a huge difference, I'd say they're normally our worst matchup. Locking all spells at 3 > and keeping their mana at <3 is a truely crippling lockout effect, though it requires a bit of an ideal hand to pull off. I don't really like to drop it immediately against other matchups, as it makes our own ramp quite expensive to play, but once I have 4-5 mana sources Trini is coming down. I've been trying to find space for at least 2 in the main as it shuts down a lot of early strategies.
I saw another build that used Ensnaring Bridge but I'm not sure that really fits our strategy well, unless we stick to the Cloudthresher bounce, which I'd really rather not do.
I'm sure some sort of list could be constructed to mitigate Trini/Maze's effects on us, but it may not be better. I love siding in Trini against Burn, Aggro, and Control. Snapcaster Mage-ing a Lightning Bolt is suddenly less attractive when it costs 6. Doesn't bother us, because we've ramped into oblivion pretty quickly and mostly ignore the restriction.
I'll just be running Root Maze on paper until I can afford a playset of Trinisphere, but either way, we do run 4x Arbor elf, which is more than enough to untap our land drop for turn, and all the other ways we have to play land come in tapped anyways! So we're largely unaffected by a hand with Arbor Elf/Root maze, except that we can't use elfyboi to power out a T2 Acidmoss via Utopia.
But when we're already slowing our opponent by one turn per land drop for...1 mana...I'm not really complaining. Frankly I've just convinced myself that Root Maze deserves at least 2 slots in the main board and Trini is just a nice to have, because Arbor Elf is already built in.
Furthermore, I might even look at trading out the Mystics for even more early untap power with Voyaging Satyr, which would have the additional bonus of untapping Nykthos for us...I don't think I have to explain how explosive that could be.
Furthermore, I might even look at trading out the Mystics for even more early untap power with Voyaging Satyr, which would have the additional bonus of untapping Nykthos for us...I don't think I have to explain how explosive that could be.
I tested Deus of Calamity mainboard today and...it was just absolutely disgusting. With how fast this deck ramps, he's basically an annihilator 1 turn 3-4-5, depending on if you draw the right ramp and if you have to tutor for him. Anything blocked by him that early dies, and if they run out of blockers, their land is wide open for free destruction. It might seem like a win-more card, but remember...this is a prison deck, and our mechanism of action is consistently keeping our opponent off their land. Deus gives us a huge, cheap threat that furthers our cause. I took out Thragtusk for him, because as good as Thraggy is...I mean, its a trade off. We lose the ability to bounce Thrag for life and free 3/3s, but if we land Deus, he ends the game in the time it would take to set up that combo, AND keeps the opponent off their land. And, trample.
I found all I needed was a hand with good ramp, a 4cmc land destruction effect, and either Deus or Primal, and by the time he comes out, the opponent is so far on their back foot he just clears the board in a way no other mainboard threat I've tested has done. I'm leaving in Ballista for now, but frankly I'm tempted to take out Hornet and run 2x Deus. I haven't even tested him with Trinisphere yet, I can't imagine how gross slamming a Trinisphere first would be.
Also, I've found that the deck runs FAR more consistently with the full package of ramp, and after more testing, I'm not really a fan of how Courser gives away our plays. We can ramp fast enough that he's not really necessary, and I got him in place of a ramp card more times than one, where the hand would have otherwise been perfect.
Another testing note, Temur Sabertooth has some serious advantages over Stampeding Serow. 1. We get to choose if/when we bounce. This is huge in itself, as being forced to do anything allows the opponent to play around our board and guess our plays. Also, we can block with Temur+a creature, return creature to hand, and Temur is indestructable. Same with attacking. And we can even trigger temur more than once per turn! And, the biggest one...his ability works the SAME TURN he comes down.
Just a thought...This deck can get to 8 mana pretty easily, what better finisher for us than Ulamog's Crusher? Or even Bane of Bala Ged. I hate to go the cliche Eldrazi-finisher route, but I think they fit quite well with our decks strategy. I had several people tell me that the deck was very good but didn't quite have enough to do with the mana...and if we don't get our combo pieces in the first few turns, they're quite right. It might be worth looking into running a single game-ender to tutor for in case stabilizing isn't an option, or we lose our combo pieces to removal/counters.
I tested Deus of Calamity mainboard today and...it was just absolutely disgusting. With how fast this deck ramps, he's basically an annihilator 1 turn 3-4-5, depending on if you draw the right ramp and if you have to tutor for him. Anything blocked by him that early dies, and if they run out of blockers, their land is wide open for free destruction. It might seem like a win-more card, but remember...this is a prison deck, and our mechanism of action is consistently keeping our opponent off their land. Deus gives us a huge, cheap threat that furthers our cause. I took out Thragtusk for him, because as good as Thraggy is...I mean, its a trade off. We lose the ability to bounce Thrag for life and free 3/3s, but if we land Deus, he ends the game in the time it would take to set up that combo, AND keeps the opponent off their land. And, trample.
I found all I needed was a hand with good ramp, a 4cmc land destruction effect, and either Deus or Primal, and by the time he comes out, the opponent is so far on their back foot he just clears the board in a way no other mainboard threat I've tested has done. I'm leaving in Ballista for now, but frankly I'm tempted to take out Hornet and run 2x Deus. I haven't even tested him with Trinisphere yet, I can't imagine how gross slamming a Trinisphere first would be.
Also, I've found that the deck runs FAR more consistently with the full package of ramp, and after more testing, I'm not really a fan of how Courser gives away our plays. We can ramp fast enough that he's not really necessary, and I got him in place of a ramp card more times than one, where the hand would have otherwise been perfect.
Another testing note, Temur Sabertooth has some serious advantages over Stampeding Serow. 1. We get to choose if/when we bounce. This is huge in itself, as being forced to do anything allows the opponent to play around our board and guess our plays. Also, we can block with Temur+a creature, return creature to hand, and Temur is indestructable. Same with attacking. And we can even trigger temur more than once per turn! And, the biggest one...his ability works the SAME TURN he comes down.
Just a thought...This deck can get to 8 mana pretty easily, what better finisher for us than Ulamog's Crusher? Or even Bane of Bala Ged. I hate to go the cliche Eldrazi-finisher route, but I think they fit quite well with our decks strategy. I had several people tell me that the deck was very good but didn't quite have enough to do with the mana...and if we don't get our combo pieces in the first few turns, they're quite right. It might be worth looking into running a single game-ender to tutor for in case stabilizing isn't an option, or we lose our combo pieces to removal/counters.
before and agree it's more of win-more, as it doesn't impact the LD in the way we want reliably, like Acidic Slime but may be worth a slot or two in a more aggressive list.
Primeval Titan, Plow Under, and Primal Command are really my ramp targets. Titan puts you so far ahead of your opponent on mana, on top of our LD, that they can rarely catch up. That, and it's beefy, finds us threats on an empty board (Treetop Village), and has synergy with Courser.
You're right, the deck does what it's trying to do more consistently with the full ramp package. Again, I'm still ramping just as much, just with different cards that give me different options. I like options.
Sabertooth is very appealing to me, especially with the option. However, I really like the P/T of Wildebeests, as well as the trample, which has been relevant more than once.
As for the Crusher/Bane, I'd rather have something with an ETB trigger than wait a turn. Sometimes, when things aren't going so swell, we want our desired effect to occur immediately, though I will concede those creatures are just dirty. What about Sundering Titan?
I've been testing over the last week and have come up with a list with a bit more filtering & CA, though I know you're not a huge fan of Courser haha. I'm sitting at 13 LD with 4 of them being Commands, which of course is also utility. 13 isn't 17, but the ratios aren't all that crazy. Anyhow, I'll post an update after tonight.
4-0-2 tonight with the above list, except I did swap out the Wildebeest to test Temur Sabertooth.
Round 1: B/W Spirits 0-2
The conspicuous lack of Cloudthresher in my main or side after weeks of never using him comes back to haunt me. More than once I spiked back up close to 20 after my opponent chipped away with 1/1 flying spirit tokens. More than once could I produce 10 mana with a primal command in-hand (to gain 7 and search for Thresher' & evoke it). I did not have Thresher'. Lesson learned.
Round 2: Burn 2-1
He played burn spells and got there super fast game 1. He nuked my T1 dork and Ghost Quarter'd my enchanted land. Games 2 and 3 I have 3 boarded in Obstinate Baloth and get there with mana denial and rising above 20 life.
Round 3: U/R Gifts Storm 2-0
Poor guy doesn't know how to play this list and has only seen about an hour of coverage. He makes frequent misplays (tapping his red mana for draw spells / Baral) and can't quite keep up. Boseiju comes in from the board and his Remands / sided-in Dispels don't do anything to slow me down.
Round 4: Serum Powder Eldrazi 2-0
He's relying on Serum Powder and Simian Spirit Guide to power out Aliens early and out-tempo the opponent. Problem is he's paying 5 cards to do it on turn one and my Turn 2 Acid-Moss removes his sole land and I get my life back and play a Thragtusk with Command. Game 2 I don't even sideboard and do nearly the same play, this time seeing 2 Plow Under off Harmonize.
Round 5: Eldrazi Tron 2-0
He can't seem to keep a land online, much less assemble tron. He casts nothing meaningful and dies to Prime Time & 2 fetched Treetops.
Round 6: Jund 1-2
This was to make Top 8. Game 1 is super grindy for me, but I get there by out-valuing him. Garruk's ultimate with 2 Coursers and 2 Treetops seal the deal after Primal Command-ing his Liliana & gaining 7 life stabilizing me. Game 2 went longer than most of my rounds, seeing me reach 38 life and get beat down by Tireless Tracker and a gigantic Scavenging Ooze. Game 3 I mull to 5 after pitching 2 no-landers. I end up with 2 Forest, 1 Sprawl, 1 Arbor Elf, 1 Acid-Moss, which is a near-godhand. I play Elf and pass. He Duresses my Acid-Moss, Abrupt Decays my Sprawl and I don't see another land for the rest of the game, but I die with 3 Primal Commands in hand.
Thoughts:
1. Courser of Kruphix was amazing. I never wanted to side it out and gained over 25 life in 6 games off it (sometimes with 2 copies in play).
2. Tireless Tracker is amazing and could find a home in our deck, though it occupies the Courser spot. Maybe a 2/2 or 3/3 split would be in order. The CA gained from that card by my Jund opponent, as well as the resilient threat that it is, convinces me it's worth our close scrutiny at the very least.
3. Cloudthresher has a home in the main, potentially over even Hornet Queen, which I actually sided out many games. Queen's great against certain matchups, just not mine and might be better sided in against them.
4. Garruk Wildspeaker is now beyond reproach for me in this list. All 3 of his abilities are relevant, and he can turn a lackluster board state with 1/1, 2/1, and 2/4 dorks into lethal one turn after coming into play. That, and he untaps Utopia Sprawl'd lands and Nykthos, enabling filthy plays.
5. Stampeding Wildebeests / Temur Sabertooth came out in every match for a card either more utilitarian or just plain useful against my opponents. The loop n' lock is great, and probably easier to get going in Neilson's list. In here, not so much. I'm probably just going to cut it for something else.
6. Harmonize was great when cast and drew plain gas. However, it often drew a LD spell I was digging for (plus 2 cards), which is what I removed (Bramblecrush) to make room for Harmonize. At the end of the day, I would like to have more T2/T3 LD or anti-Liliana, The Last Hope spray. The gas wasn't worth the consistency, I'm afraid.
7. Garruk Relentless deserves a look. I picked up 2 copies at the store and am looking to theorycraft him into my build, either as a singleton or 2 copies. This deck could potentially benefit from the reach and removal it offers.
8. Scavenging Ooze deserves a spot in the main for it's absurd utility, if only as a singleton for toolbox.
1. I go back and forth on this card. As much as it ****s up my ramp sometimes, and shows off our draws, the topdeck filtering and lifegain is pretty great. I can't see myself ever running more than 2 as is.
2. TT is an exceptional card, and I imagine more so with Courser, but where it really shines is with fetchlands. It has always been an under-performer for me in decks that run mono landbases.
3. Thresher is another great card, but at least in my meta, it doesn't deserve a mainboard spot. I never see lingering souls, ever.
4. He really is good...and I never thought about what he does for our mana dorks. I have 3 and I'm trying to get in a couple, as I have noticed I actually get a statistically high number of hands that are all ramp and nothing to do with it, which says I can probably afford to stretch out the ramp curve into Courser and Garruk just slightly.
5. You know, I found I was doing the same thing, but I think its actually due to a mistake in the way I'm playing. Getting that loop set up is our fallback and if at all possible should be done first, before pulling any main threats, unless we're getting beat to ***** by go-wide aggro.
6. I agree, its a great card but not worth the slot. I actually run 8 4drop LD spells right now, and its made a difference. Speaking of card advantage though, I recently found Lifecrafter's Bestiary when looking to optimize my other mono green deck. While it's not quite as amazing in this deck, since we run slightly less creatures, giving us scry+card advantage is certainly worth looking at. Though there are anti-synergies with Courser, so its probably one or the other, but they both have their advantages. edit:Another card I just found that also grants CA, and actually works with courser, seer's sundial
7. He seems cool, but also very easily disruptable, I'm not sure how I feel about him. Also, doesn't him being Legendary mean we can't have both Garruk's in play?
8. Ol' Scoozy deserves a slot in any green deck lol.
I got stomped on last night. My first game was great but I think I let it get to my head and lost every one after that. I need to remember that this isn't stompy, and that my initial focus is on keeping them off their lands, then setting myself up, then pulling creatures...not immediately pulling creatures.
I don't know about you, but over all I'm very satisfied with this archetype in almost every way except for its lack of Trinisphere. The more I play, the more I feel this deck just begs for trinisphere, and we can get it out as early as T2. Nearly every game I lost last night was due to my opponent getting our under me before I could LD, and then not having the turns to both stabilize and respond with my own threat, which would not have been a concern in the least with Trinisphere.
I absolutely cannot find a single non-foil copy anywhere I look though, which is unfortunate. I might just have to run Root Maze for now, but it doesn't quite feel the same.
7. He seems cool, but also very easily disruptable, I'm not sure how I feel about him. Also, doesn't him being Legendary mean we can't have both Garruk's in play?
I got stomped on last night. My first game was great but I think I let it get to my head and lost every one after that. I need to remember that this isn't stompy, and that my initial focus is on keeping them off their lands, then setting myself up, then pulling creatures...not immediately pulling creatures.
I don't know about you, but over all I'm very satisfied with this archetype in almost every way except for its lack of Trinisphere. The more I play, the more I feel this deck just begs for trinisphere, and we can get it out as early as T2. Nearly every game I lost last night was due to my opponent getting our under me before I could LD, and then not having the turns to both stabilize and respond with my own threat, which would not have been a concern in the least with Trinisphere.
I absolutely cannot find a single non-foil copy anywhere I look though, which is unfortunate. I might just have to run Root Maze for now, but it doesn't quite feel the same.
I was surprised to learn this upon coming back to MTG, but Wildspeaker would not cause any negative interaction with Relentless in Play due to the newer legendary rules. When Lorwyn came out, they made rule 704.5j which stated:
"If a player controls two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the “planeswalker uniqueness rule.”
This past August, rule 704.5k was added, changing the effect.
"If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the “legend rule.”
So, this means a few things. One, if the opponent plays a Wildspeaker or Relentless and we have one in hand, we can play it without fear because one player must control both copies of the same card with the same card name in order for one to go to the graveyard. Two, we can have one of each Relentless and Wildspeaker in play since they have different names.
As far as the merits of Garruk Relentless:
His vanilla form produces dorks -1/-1 weaker than Wildspeaker, which can chump the same or get there if necessary.
The following turn he can target that dork, one of our mana dorks, or anything with >3 Power and flip. This can be used as removal as early as Turn 2. That's something we generally can't do at all, but if they stick a problematic creature that has 3 power, we can 1-for-1. Otherwise, it's killing a Scooze, mana dork, Dark Confidant, Thalia, Leonin Arbiter, Goblin Guide, Swiftspear, etc.
Garruk the Veil-Cursed has some merits of his own:
He can produce kill-anything 1/1 wolves.
He can sacrifice that wolf on the next turn or a no-longer-useful mana dork the turn he flips and tutor for anything (furthering the viability of a toolbox).
His ultimate can potentially be better than Wildspeaker's.
Yeah, the general line of play for early turns (1-4 or 5) is Mana Dork > Additional Mana Dork / Enabler > 4 CMC LD > Primal with Diet Plow Under / Plow Under / LD #3. After that it's Go get something big and unfriendly > Smash & LD > Smash & LD > Win.
The problem with setting up the loop is that it requires we focus on it. Sometimes the board is in such a state that I'm more interested in the lifegain & creature search with Primal that I don't yet have time for the loop. Once I get to the point where I've cast 3 Witnesses and recurred Primal 3 times, I'm usually drawing other copies of Primal and would rather just get what's going to win outright. However, you still may be right about it but my list doesn't allow for it as easily as Neilson's.
Trinisphere calls to me in my sleep, and has come in against burn, aggro, and any decks lower to the ground each week. There are some games where it will impact us more than them, but nearly every game it will be dirty on Turn 2. I wouldn't be opposed to maining 3 copies, I just don't know where I'd start with a list to make the most of it.
You know, I saw two versions of Liliana out on another table last night, and now that makes sense. We do need removal as well, and Ballista can be too late often times. Sacrificial deatchtouch blockers may be the answer here, but I was also looking at Master of the Wild Hunt a while back in the same slot. Never tested with it much as its weak to bolt, but so are the planeswalkers. We'll see how Trinisphere changes that dynamic.
I think I like the idea of mainboarding a Primeval in all builds because it immediately sets us up for the magical mana number of 8 for the ewit/primal soft lock the next turn, so if we do end up going without bounce effects, I think Primeval needs to stay for sure, to ensure we at least have the ability to soft lock and lifegain stabilize/tutor for threats.
Really excited to try Lifecrafter's Bestiary in my build, what do you think of trying the seer's sundial with the Coursers in yours? Maybe go down 1 courser for it?
I just found 4x Trini on eBay I'll probably be maining at least 2, with at least 1 side. If you're on untap, message me your username so I can add you, and we can do some mirror matches and brew outside of this forum. And if you're not testing on untap...you really need to try it. Unless of course you're an MTGO guy who laughs at us freeware plebs.
You know, I saw two versions of Liliana out on another table last night, and now that makes sense. We do need removal as well, and Ballista can be too late often times. Sacrificial deatchtouch blockers may be the answer here, but I was also looking at Master of the Wild Hunt a while back in the same slot. Never tested with it much as its weak to bolt, but so are the planeswalkers. We'll see how Trinisphere changes that dynamic.
I think I like the idea of mainboarding a Primeval in all builds because it immediately sets us up for the magical mana number of 8 for the ewit/primal soft lock the next turn, so if we do end up going without bounce effects, I think Primeval needs to stay for sure, to ensure we at least have the ability to soft lock and lifegain stabilize/tutor for threats.
Really excited to try Lifecrafter's Bestiary in my build, what do you think of trying the seer's sundial with the Coursers in yours? Maybe go down 1 courser for it?
I just found 4x Trini on eBay I'll probably be maining at least 2, with at least 1 side. If you're on untap, message me your username so I can add you, and we can do some mirror matches and brew outside of this forum. And if you're not testing on untap...you really need to try it. Unless of course you're an MTGO guy who laughs at us freeware plebs.
Master of the Wild Hunt sounds pretty great, actually. I do recall you (someone?) mentioning him on the Reddit thread and I totally forgot about that critter. Might be worth it in addition to Garruk, cause I'm greedy and more of a "Why not both?" sorta guy.
I agree, and we maybe only really need one. I mean, it's nice to just cast when you have 6 mana and has an immediate effect on the board state, but we have 5 virtual copies if we're counting Primal. I've liked 2, but never casted 2 in the same game before, so it may be that once he hits he's served his purpose.
I would have a hard time dropping coursers for Sundial personally, as I tried filling that space with Harmonize already (still not sure on it, tbh) and wished it was something else. Maybe there's some trade off with the ratios I'm incapable of seeing right now, as it's hard to experience moderate success and change everything up. At this point, I'd rather have 2 business spells in place of a 4 CMC CA machine. I might change my mind.
I uhh, don't actually have a personal computer I can do anything with atm. At least not anything that can run something more sophisticated than solitaire (crummy netbook + work machine is all I have). I guess that makes me less than a freeware pleb
And if you're not testing on untap...you really need to try it. Unless of course you're an MTGO guy who laughs at us freeware plebs.
My freeware platform of choice has been XMage. I recommend checking it out if you haven't heard of it before.
FYI -- I've been tinkering with this deck as well and have been 'lurking' in the thread since its creation. Really enjoying the conversation so far. Keep up the good work and testing. Hoping I can chime in with some suggestions as well as the deck evolves.
Master of the Wild Hunt sounds pretty great, actually. I do recall you (someone?) mentioning him on the Reddit thread and I totally forgot about that critter. Might be worth it in addition to Garruk, cause I'm greedy and more of a "Why not both?" sorta guy.
I agree, and we maybe only really need one. I mean, it's nice to just cast when you have 6 mana and has an immediate effect on the board state, but we have 5 virtual copies if we're counting Primal. I've liked 2, but never casted 2 in the same game before, so it may be that once he hits he's served his purpose.
I would have a hard time dropping coursers for Sundial personally, as I tried filling that space with Harmonize already (still not sure on it, tbh) and wished it was something else. Maybe there's some trade off with the ratios I'm incapable of seeing right now, as it's hard to experience moderate success and change everything up. At this point, I'd rather have 2 business spells in place of a 4 CMC CA machine. I might change my mind.
I uhh, don't actually have a personal computer I can do anything with atm. At least not anything that can run something more sophisticated than solitaire (crummy netbook + work machine is all I have). I guess that makes me less than a freeware pleb
[quote from="mistahARK »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/790575-mono-green-control?comment=20"] And if you're not testing on untap...you really need to try it. Unless of course you're an MTGO guy who laughs at us freeware plebs.
I pretty much just run 1x of each threat mainboard, with a total of 3-4 threat slots currently, and my sideboard has the more matchup-specific threats. So 1x Primeval already makes sense to me, but if you like to draw him naturally, as the Neilson did with the Cloudthresher, then its a really good card to run 2x of. I saw it argued against a lot in the other thread, but I think that the fact of it bringing us from 6 to the magic 8 lands in a turn was missed. I might even cut a land as I've been getting flooded a lot, and since I run the Elders, no Coursers (as of now) and now Primeval, plus acidmoss, getting natural land drops doesn't matter a whole lot after the initial ramp.
A bit of a tangent off of this vein, some sideboarding advice that I came across recently: Mathematically, the difference between 20 lands on play and 19 lands on the draw is .1% percent...so we can ALWAYS afford to trade in an extra threat from the sideboard for a forest without taking anything else out if we're on the draw G2/3.
As for the removal, again I really do think it'll be far less of a big deal when I can start dropping Trinisphere early, but we need something faster than Ballista, which takes 6-8 lands to become relevant to the board (without Nykthos) and at that point we ideally want Primeval first. I'm not super confident about either Garruk or Master but they might serve their purpose early game.
If you do end up giving sundial a shot, try just going to 2 Coursers and 1 sundial, and remember that harmonize is a sorcery that requires Ewit for recursion, while sundial is a static boost that has great synergy with the other two coursers you're still running. Personally I'll probably be sticking to 1-2 Bestiarys.
Ha! Well luckily untap is a web app, so it might not be as intensive as some of the other applications. I'm running it on my 2011 macbook and its flawless.
My freeware platform of choice has been XMage. I recommend checking it out if you haven't heard of it before.
FYI -- I've been tinkering with this deck as well and have been 'lurking' in the thread since its creation. Really enjoying the conversation so far. Keep up the good work and testing. Hoping I can chime in with some suggestions as well as the deck evolves.
Yes! Someone else! lol. It would be great to have as many eyes and minds on this as possible, its easy to get stuck in one way of thinking without more opinions and parallel efforts.
You know I've heard a lot of good things about xMage, but like MTGO, it just doesn't want to run on my mac :/
I've mostly been goldfishing the deck and noticed instances where I've had 'slower' opening hands (for example, maybe something like 3 Forest, Arbor Elf, Eternal Witness, Acid-Moss, Primal Command) where our LD won't come online by Turn 3 at the earliest and we're just durdling around on Turn 2 -- or even worse, our Elf gets bolted/pushed and we're floundering around until Turn 4. I DO understand that decks that use an early-game ramp strategy naturally fall victim to drawing the wrong half of the deck at times. Should we try to include a few more 2-drop or 3-drop plays for times where we don't have hands that do much in the opening turns or would this simply be diluting our main strategy? Should we just be trying to mulligan for faster hands in general? I feel like the above example is a 'playable 7' but maybe our deck shouldn't settle for just 'playable' hands...? I guess if we try to include Coursers then we have these kinds of situations covered better. Has keeping a sub-optimal or slower hand been a problem against most opponents? I guess my main question is where would you draw the line for keepable opening hands?
I think the best 3 drops and you should avoid 2 drops outside of Ooze are Tireless Tracker and Courser of Kruphix. Choose many or one and go with it. However, the more value creatures you choose the less LD or other creatures you may have. You might have to accept that as a control deck, your early turns are lost and you will lose against aggro decks like Elves or Infect.
I think the best 3 drops and you should avoid 2 drops outside of Ooze are Tireless Tracker and Courser of Kruphix. Choose many or one and go with it. However, the more value creatures you choose the less LD or other creatures you may have. You might have to accept that as a control deck, your early turns are lost and you will lose against aggro decks like Elves or Infect.
3 Coursers have been great for me, but I want to find room for Tireless tracker. We can trigger Tracker's ability with standard land drops, Acid-Moss, and Prime Titan. Do we need fetches to make that work (I'm avoiding fetches in mono green).
I've mostly been goldfishing the deck and noticed instances where I've had 'slower' opening hands (for example, maybe something like 3 Forest, Arbor Elf, Eternal Witness, Acid-Moss, Primal Command) where our LD won't come online by Turn 3 at the earliest and we're just durdling around on Turn 2 -- or even worse, our Elf gets bolted/pushed and we're floundering around until Turn 4. I DO understand that decks that use an early-game ramp strategy naturally fall victim to drawing the wrong half of the deck at times. Should we try to include a few more 2-drop or 3-drop plays for times where we don't have hands that do much in the opening turns or would this simply be diluting our main strategy? Should we just be trying to mulligan for faster hands in general? I feel like the above example is a 'playable 7' but maybe our deck shouldn't settle for just 'playable' hands...? I guess if we try to include Coursers then we have these kinds of situations covered better. Has keeping a sub-optimal or slower hand been a problem against most opponents? I guess my main question is where would you draw the line for keepable opening hands?
Neilson's stock list ran 4 Sakura-Tribe Elder and 11 turn 1 acceleration dorks/enchantments. I diversified that ramp in my list with the knowledge I don't get to turn 2 LD as much, but I reliably turn 3 LD pretty often. I'm also running Coursers to help fill the void in turns and stave off / recover from early turns. The mainboard Thrag is also there to help us get back online from a slower start with Primal Command gaining 7 life and finding the Thragtusk.
Note: I am not the creator of this deck, and all credit goes to Neilson for brewing this up.
The Reddit thread
The Instant Deck Tech (outdated build)
Neilson's most updated list
Current running build:
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Arbor Elf
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Acidic Slime
1 Stampeding Wildebeests
3 Eternal Witness
Planeswalker
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Artifact
2 Trinisphere
Enchantment
4 Utopia Sprawl
Sorcery
3 Plow Under
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2 Bramblecrush
2 Creeping Mold
4 Primal Command
1 Pendelhaven
19 Forest
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Carnage Tyrant
1 Cloudthresher
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Trinisphere
1 Hornet Queen
1 Thragtusk
1 Fracturing Gust
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Scavenging Ooze
Essentially this is an old-style Prison deck in Mono-Green, using land destruction to lock the opponent out of the game, with an additional "1-card prison loop" as the creator calls it, otherwise known as the Eternal Command. The deck also just so happens to run for less than 200$ as of right now.
We have a massive focus on mana ramping into early LD spells, then Primal Command gives the ability to tutor for our threats while bouncing permanents from the opponents battlefield back onto the top of their deck. Then we use eternal witness to loop the effect, pulling more Eternal witnesses out of the deck to softloop until we run out, then we tutor for Sabertooth to bounce eternal witness, play her to pull Primal command, and continue to gain life and topdeck the opponents land ad-infinitum, locking their hand for as long as we decide, while our threats swing in for the finish. We can also use Serow/Slime to smash across an artifact/enchantment heavy board. Bramblecrush even gives us the ability to kill planeswalkers. And any card we need back we can pull with strategic use of eternal witness/serow.
Walking Ballista gives us much needed removal/blocking utility, and can be brought back with Ewit. Thragtusk gives us Lifegain on a big body with pseudo Persistence that is very resilient against any type of removal. Hornet Queen tends to end games as 5 flying deathtouchers is bad news for any board state.
A single Pendalhaven lends some legitimacy to blocking with all the 1/1 mana dorks we run, though in testing I have found it to be a tad underwhelming. I discuss additional nonbasic strategies at the botton of this post.
Don't forget, Sakura-Tribe Elder is not to be immediately sacrificed on playing it. Don't let it sit on the battlefield for another turn, but at least wait to see if you can get a block out of him, or bait for a lightning bolt before you sac.
In the sideboard
Trinispheree is probably the most notable and useful piece, especially against aggro decks, as most of our spells cost 4 or more. I am also experimenting with Root Maze in this slot, and the more I do, the more I think one or the other belongs in the mainboard as at least a 2x. This is a prison deck after all, and while ensnaring bridge doesn't really fit well, Root Maze has amazing synergy with the topdeck loop, and Trinisphere stops pure aggro and burn decks dead in their tracks, and eases our lockout strategy, as we only need to keep them below 3 lands, and even if they have 3, they can only cast one spell per turn.
Cloudthresher is the original threat the creator ran in the deck, boasting the ability to flash in on an opponents turn after they cast+activate Jace/Liliana and finish him on our turn before Jace has a chance to bounce. Also happens to perform well against Affinity and Lingering souls, and at its least helpful its a flash-in blocker. I only run one of because I find the other threats to be too useful in all other matchups. However, As long as you're ahead 3 or more in life, a looped Cloudthresher becomes another win condition: Primal, Tutor for this/topdeck land, bounce it up and down with Serow for 2 life each turn, looped until opponent catches your drift and concedes.
Chameleon Colossus is one I'm hesistant on, and its why I only run one. It's a great card, but without another way to boost his power, its just a bit underwhelming, but it does pound black decks.
Obstinate Baloth is discard hate, especially against 8rack and Jund. Decent against Burn but Thragtusk is better for that matchup.
Scavenging Ooze is our graveyard hate and what a deck to run scoozy in. Having nearly always open mana, scooze can be incredibly core to the punishing of decks that play from their graveyard.
Thrun has been an anti-control staple for a while. Boseiju does much better than Pendelhaven in this matchup. Tyrant is our finisher.
Dungrove Elder - probably deserves 2 slots for the sheer amount of forests we're able to drop by turn 3. Maybe even a mainboard slot.
Fracturing Gust - this replaces Creeping Corrosion for me, and what a good card it is against Bogles, Mono-White Prison, Free Win Red, Lantern Control, Affinity, Tron, you name it.
There are many intricacies to this deck that are further explored in the links above and I'm excited to see how many others you all are able to discover, and to work with you all as we begin to develop and optimize towards getting a solid Primer in place.
Potentials for the threat slots
Primeval Titan - This card has quickly become the ramp target for the deck. not only do we swing with a 6/6 next turn, he can pull two Treetop Villages if we run them, and he takes us to 8 lands as soon as he comes down, which is where we can start playing eternal witness as well as any spell in our graveyard in one turn.
Woodland Bellower - Summons an Ewit, (free, same-turn graveyard to hand recursion), Scooze, or Dungrove Elder for free. Great if you prefer to have the graveyard recursion over the land summons, but no trample.
Deus of Calamity - 6/6 for 5 with pseudo-"Annihilator 1" - One of my favorite cards to really nail down the coffin
Engulfing Slagwurm - 7/7 with pseudo-deathtouch/lifelink. Whether this is worth running over the others is questionable but it does punish attacking us, and makes the decision to block it even more painful.
Primeval Titan - As good as this card is on its own, using it to pull out a Boseiju, Who Shelters All against a control deck would turn the tide, as it gives us free reign to chip away at their land or just Eternal Command while we swing for 6 trample every turn.
Carnage Tyrant
Something I am just not sold on yet, is 1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx in place of Pendelhaven. I feel that, especially with Courser of Kruphix and Primeval Titan on mainboard, Nykthos could do a lot of work mid game, and could especially make Walking ballista an easy wincon. Its not optimal to see in an opening hand with Utopia Sprawl, but the advantage it could give is huge. We could even throw a Treetop Village in alongside it to get the most value out of Primeval Titan's tutor, or side in Boseiju against control decks. These cards get even better with a Garruk Wildspeaker or even Nissa, Worldwaker on mainboard.
Overall though, with the current mana ramp package, this deck does not like nonbasic lands, I would not run more than 2 nonbasics and that is 100% only if Primeval Titan is mainboard.
Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and the deuce Treetop Villages have saved my rear more than once, by powering out the 1-card loops, grabbing a team of blockers, or pushing final damage through against my control opponent ala Primeval Titan. In honor of one of the Reddit posters, I'm calling this Green Lantern as a nod to the inevitability and plodding gameplay of the Lantern decks. Well, that and because it's only limited by your imagination (and meta), just like the lantern's ring. Anyhow, here's the list. I'm happy to welcome any card choice questions, but I'd surmise a lot of these are obvious given the OP's awesome primer writeup.
Critters: 20
1x Acidic Slime
1x Walking Ballista
2x Primeval Titan
1x Stampeding Wildebeests
1x Thragtusk
4x Arbor Elf
1x Chameleon Colossus
3x Courser of Kruphix
1x Elvish Mystic
3x Eternal Witness
1x Hornet Queen
1x Llanowar Elves
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
Sorcery: 13
4x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2x Bramblecrush
3x Plow Under
4x Primal Command
Enchantment: 4
4x Utopia Sprawl
Land: 20
17x Forest
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Treetop Village
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Cloudthresher
2x Fracturing Gust
3x Obstinate Baloth
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Trinisphere
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
Hey! Thanks for the shoutout, and I'd love to field a few questions about your build.
1. Which matchups have been the most difficult for you, and do you think the more traditional build would have faired better in those matchups?
2. Which matchups do you think your build faired better than the traditional build would have?
3. Have you considered swapping a treetop with a basic forest for maximum efficiency with Utopia Sprawl? If not, why do you choose to run more nonbasic lands than you can reliably tutor for?
4. If we are going the route of slightly more nonbasic lands, and you already have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx with two Primeval Titan in the mainboard, what do you think of the following: Dropping a Treetop for a Kessig Wolf Run, and a forest for a single Mountain? We'd be moving more towards a Green Devotion build at that point, but if we're talking Prime Time/Nykthos/Garruk, its worth discussing.
5. What made you want to mainboard a card that seems as narrow as Chameleon Colossus?
6. Do you ever find yourself wishing you had more ramp, Acidic Slime, or at least less Courser of Kruphix?
7. Have you considered running Reclaiming Vines to give yourself a chance to hit Artifact/Enchantment Creatures as well as the Bramblecrush for Planeswalkers?
8. Do you feel secure in only running 1x Stampeding Wildebeests, as crucial to the combo as that card is? Have you had it removed and lost the game because of it?
9. What sort of hands do you look to keep?
10. Finally, what are the ideal lines of play that you've identified? I'm especially interested in how Garruk works for you.
1. You may laugh, but my most difficult matchups were both against U/B Mill. They have so many ways to dump your GY off one card and run up to 26 land. They only need to stick the 1 drop crab and they'll go from there with fetches. That, and Remand for your Primal Command to prevent you from shuffling your GY back into your library. In the 2 times I've faced it, I was 1 turn away from stabilizing and winning. Outside that, D&T with 8 maindecked LD lands can be backbreaking for us, but not impossible. You need to sequence your spells perfectly and wait to see how they've established themselves. If they are spending turns Quartering your Utopia Sprawl'd lands they aren't playing their dudes and you can start working on their mana base on a fair level (casting 4CMC spells on turn 4, etc).
2. I'm not so sure I'm ready to call anything "traditional." Neilson's certainly the inspiration, and all credit is due to him for this in the form that it's in (as well as the redditors). However, it's a mashup of a few decks as-is, and I wasn't having a ton of fun with the all-in approach of LD. Neilson ran 17 maindecked LD spells and Cloudthresher as the windmill beatdown, I chose to develop a more midrange strategy that was more resilient to a deck that nukes your mana dorks or kills enchanted lands. I'm not saying it's better, but it has different lines of play and likely different strengths and weaknesses. I'd honestly have to play more before I could give a full answer to that, but I will say I loved playing against any type of control. Jeskai, U/W, and Tron variants were actually pretty smooth matchups, along with the nearly auto-win that is burn. We have such a diversified set of threatening spells that need countered and, in the case of a list sporting a singleton Thragtusk alongside 4 Primal Command Burn just gets crushed under inevitability, through Skullcrack because we can keep them off critical burn spells until they run out of stuff to do with Plow Under (as well as the diet Plow Under mode of Command) via recursion.
3. I run the 2 treetops because I like seeing both when games go longer (past turn 7 or 8). Nonbasics make up a small portion of my manabase and can certainly make things tough if they're all I see opening hand, which hasn't yet happened, though I'm sure it can and will.
4. I don't think KWR and a singleton mountain is a bad idea, but that's swapping 2 green-producing sources for a colorless and red-producing source, which will certainly exacerbate the issues you're concerned with.
5. Chameleon Colossus is narrow in its protection, not its utility. Yeah, sometimes the pro-black is irrelevant, but it also survives burn spells by activating its ability, can randomly swing for 64 as your topdeck, and utterly blanks Death's Shadow. It's won me more than a few games outside the matchups its in the main for, so it's earned its spot..for now.
6. Not really? Not yet? Too early to tell? I'm not quite sure on the ratios yet. I have 5 virtual copies of Slime in the main if I count Primal Command, which I do. Again, I've moved away from the 17 dedicated LD spells and I still have 2 Bramblecrushs as a "blow up anything" card, so I don't see it as necessary. There were games where I wished I had another Courser for its toughness instead of the slime sitting in my hand and a 3/3 on the opponents side of the field. Courser, with Mwoncuvuli Acid-Moss, land drops, and Primeval Titan has gained me loads of life, and that's to say nothing of giving us a turn 3 play and topdeck selection. More testing is needed though cause I'm never satisfied with the ratios between those two cards.
7. I haven't, but I'm not opposed to it. I ran Neilson's 2nd list, card-for-card at my first magic tournament in 7 years (first ever modern tournament). The current iteration is based off my experience and what type of deck I wanted to pilot.
8. Yes. On its own, it's mostly a junk creature that doesn't interact well with a lot of the creatures in my toolbox build (or Neilson's stock list). It's counter-tempo in a lot of circumstances to bounce a dude next turn and a terrible topdeck. The combo you're referring to isn't what I'd call a win-more, but once you set it up - it's unlikely you can lose. The combo isn't the point of the deck, but adds to its inevitability.
9. Anything with a turn 3 play, even if it's just Courser. But ideally 2 Forest, 1 Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk, Acid-Moss/Bramblecrush/Plow Under/Primal Command are pretty nuts.
10. Garruk has been an all star. He makes Utopia Sprawl'd Forests amazing. His ultimate has won me a ton of games. His Beats stave off aggressive decks. He's proven himself time and time again generally, like in MTG, and he fits in nicely with this deck. I'll post more when I can sit down and think of it a bit more clearly.
Hope that helps!
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
2. I'm with you on the terminology, I just meant traditional in the sense that Neilson's list is what I'd consider the baseline to be modified from. Its focused, fast, and simple in what it does. I'm definitely interested in testing out different modifications to it and several of yours are already in my new running build as well, though the changes in my numbers are a bit more conservative to start out.
3. Treetops have definitely made a massive difference for me in my MonoG Stompy deck, so I'm adding in one for now because I do like it a lot. I'm also starting to recognize that the early mana ramping just doesn't seem to be moving towards enough muscle sometimes, and I have to settle for soft locking while I draw into threats longer than I'd like, so Treetop seems a good solution to this. I also didn't notice that Primeval tutors lands when he attacks as well...that really makes the difference. By the way, while we're talking about tutor value...check out the possible synergy with an attacking Primeval and Panglacial Wurm. Titan > Nykthos > attacking Titan > activate Nykthos > Wurm.
4. I would run those two in place of any Treetops and alongside a single Nykthos to minimize the impact as much as possible, but yes, we do lose green sources, though all I'm really worried about is suboptimal hands with Utopia. We can even Utopia the Mountain for green if we really need to.
6. Courser is definitely a great addition, and I'm running 1 right now to test. Like I said, I like to stay conservative in changes and slowly move out. I think as long as we have 4x Eternal Witnesses, dropping down to a 1-of in Slime is a safe bet, though having a few deathtouch blockers out is a really nice thing to have sometimes.
8. This is a good point, and I think I've been prioritizing the setup of the loop too much. Out comes one for me as well.
Good points overall and thanks for your input. Let me know if you'd like to help with the primer, I'd like to narrow down a few different builds for it and I think yours is a good one. Interestingly, I wanted to get into Green Devotion but balked at the price tag, and stumbled across this deck instead...and then your build turns out to be a lighter version of Green Devo with all the fun of the mono green control as well.
2. I see what you mean now. Neilson's list was obviously successful for him, and he's been testing and refining it for much longer than I have. At some point, he chose to drive in a more linear direction with the cheap ramp and LD because he found that to be successful for what he was trying to achieve and it landed him a top 8 at a large tournament. I want to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with his, while I will admit there may be many things wrong with mine. However, being linear in such a diverse format in Modern has both upsides and downsides. He's more consistent, but he's also weaker to decks can blank his early plays and nail land drops through selection. Any deck packing Lightning Bolt and Mana Leak can be a challenge if the pilot kills your mana dork, blows up a Utopia'd land, and/or counters your business spells. It's not un-winnable by a mile, but the all-in approach can open doors we'd rather like to keep closed. Skred Red would be nightmarish, as their Skreds progressively get better, they run Mind Stone for ramp, can ramp off of Koth of the Hammer, and can drive into much more unanswerable threats than he can.
3. There's something to be said for reliably being able to stick a 4/5-mana LD spell on turns 2 and 3 every game, but it's a more vulnerable strategy. Adding to the nonbasics doesn't make it a whole lot more vulnerable, but it does effect it. I suppose it all came down to a cost/reward ratio, and I looked at what I gained from the nonbasics vs. what it would cost me. Nykthos and Treetop offer unique lines of play, even if I'm grabbing a Titan with a T3 Command, I'm setting up 2 additional 3/3s with trample (12 total damage with Titan), setting (or bluffing) 2 3/3 blockers), or picking up a Nykthos so I can start doing stuff after early acceleration/LD. Panglacial Wurm looks nasty and may be worth attention.
4. Utopia Sprawl won't enchant a Mountain, it has to enchant a forest. I looked at that with KWR, and I looked at splashing some snow actually for Skred, Into the North, and Scrying Sheets, but it really just became a worse version of Ponza.
6. Nothing wrong with being conservative with an established build, but let me give you something to consider. Neilson's list ran 17 dedicated LD spells and 11 1/1 mana dorks, right? I'm running 6 1/1 mana dorks and 14 LD spells. Our ratios are:
28% LD / 18% Mana Dorks for Neilson
23% LD / 10% Mana dorks for me
At the end of the day, I'm still sitting at nearly 1/4 of my deck being dedicated towards LD, with spells that can hit other permanents in the main. I have a tenth of my deck dedicated to helping Utopia Sprawl power out early plays, but I'm also running 3 Garruk and 2 Prime Time, which puts me back at 11 acceleration spells, just at a different CMC, but with significantly more utility than an Elvish Mystic or Sakura-Tribe Elder. This is of course ignoring Acid-Moss' ramp, which only furthers our goals and acts as a 2-for-1 piece of card advantage. Just for the luls, I actually thought of running Troll Ascetic / Courser split. Now that I think of it, it may not be a terrible idea to test..
8. The loop is worth keeping in, believe me, but I'd much rather have a tutorable silver bullet as the 2nd copy. You don't really need the loop itself until you run out of LD spells or Witnesses to grab with Command, which can take a few turns. Most decks cannot survived a few sustained turns of diet plow under/actual plow under/getting their faced caved in by 6/6 bodies with tramble (or a random 64/64 Colossus, which we power with Nykthos).
As far as the other stuff, don't despair on accidentally being a bit of green devotion. My list has Garruk, man lands, toolbox, and Prime Time on purpose. It can certainly get absurd devotion plays off Nykthos, but it's not our focus, just something we can easily set up. I do want to find room for Harmonize and Nissa, Worldwaker to further entrench us as control, as well as more diversification in our bullet list. Don't be afraid to toss conservatism out the window when you're theory crafting, at least to goldfish a few hundred times. I've used Tappedout's "playtest" feature extensively just to see what my board state looks like off random draws more than a hundred times. Sometimes it reveals what's too much of a good thing and sometimes it lets me know I'm on to something.
I think we're on to something.
@Amicdeep: I'm not ignoring you, btw. I love your ideas! What's a border post? (sorry, been away a LONG time). Do you have any other big bombs that are tough to kill?
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
2. I do think Courser especially gives us a notable advantage T2/3 and entrenches us in a way that the deck was missing, as well as ensuring our draws will less often be wasted on lands. I also like the additional threats you've added, I always felt like 3 wasn't quite enough.
6. I actually really like the Tribe Elders, and they have a hidden card advantage as well: The ability to block before sacrificing for a land pull. Certainly no Garruk, but now that I've taken out Pendelhaven, I might take out the Mystics all together just so I can keep in some Tribe elders and make room for Garruk.
8. I think you're right, and I also think that replacing the Serow with a Temur Sabertooth would give that slot the resiliency it needs as the sole lynchpin of the combo. Sure, it slows it down, but most of the time you're not playing Ewit and Primal on the same turn anyways. Plus, it gives us the option not to bounce if we don't want to, which could be well worth the cost.
As far as Harmonize, something to think about is that we already have an engine for abusing ETB triggers...so why not Carven Caryatid,
Elvish Visionary, or even Sage of Ancient Lore/Soul of the Harvest.
While we're at it, we could even partially replace our mana ramp package to include Wall of Roots, Overgrown Battlement, and possibly Wall of Mulch to give Carven Caryatid further use. Maybe a defender build is something to look at.
However, the more i look at her, Nissa, Worldwaker seems like a winmore card to me, and the extra mana cost doesn't really justify the slight advantage she has over Garruk. Her ult also takes longer to set up than Garruk's. If we could find a way to run her as a one of and tutor for her, it might be worth it, as having both her and Garruk out would be brutal.
So I'd start off with:
We're a control deck, specifically a prison deck. Our ideal goal is to ramp into land destruction as a temp play and timewalk our opponent, while we simultaneously increase our resources and land big threats onto an empty board as early as T3-4. Walking Ballista is our main threat filling the slot of Masticore in the original Prison build. Ballista can block and clear the board of cheap creatures against our worst matchup, aggro. We mainboard additional threats as game enders, which we either use alongside Ballista or instead of it, depending on the boardstate.
We're different from Green Devo and Ponza in that we trade some explosiveness for the ability to lock the opponent out of the game while we build up our board state. We ramp into tempo offsets first, then threats. If we start falling behind, we lock the game down and gain health until we stabilize. Our deck doesn't have much in the way of threat density, so we must play the right threat, at the right time, onto the right boardstate. We trade the top end of green devo for midgame stability and to increase inevitability. We trade Ponza's ability to quickly disrupt and go wide/hard for additional tempo advantages, more effective disruption, better threat selection, and more options all around.
The prison element of the deck is not our ideal wincon but it is our fallback, our stabilizer, our way to draw cards while our opponent does not, and our way to select threats. And getting there as fast as possible, while preventing our opponent from getting ahead first, is first and foremost. Without the prison element, we are just a slower Ponza, or a weaker Green Devo, so while those two are natural directions to head in when developing, we need to be careful to retain the core elements that make our deck different. To me, that is:
4x Eternal Witness
4x Primal Command
1x Sabertooth (still not 100% sold on this slot as a 1x)
3x Plow Under
4x Acidmoss
1x Walking Ballista
1x Acidic Slime
4x Arbor Elf
4x Utopia Sprawl
6x Additional ramp slots (Mystic, Sakura, Courser, Garruk)
2x Threat slots (Ballista, Thragtusk, Hornets, Titan, Elderscale)
The above feels like the immovable core to me. Even going 1 less on any of them just doesn't feel right. However, the rest of the deck seems totally open to experimentation. The deck can run better with all nonbasics in certain circumstances. Or a Nykthos. Or Treetops. Or more ramp slots, or more slime, or additional threats. Its up to us to find out which list is best, or which ones are competitive enough that saying which is better is a hard call.
All of this ^. We're eminently customizable based off of our metas and can tailor suite our threat package and control cards to what we're seeing / expect to see. Your prison comment reminded me of some things I'm working through, namely Trinisphere moved from side to main and mainboarded Root Maze. We'd really be a prison deck there, with our "core" package in place, which I believe to be this:
4 Primal Command
3 Plow Under
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
3 Eternal Witness
2 Acidic Slime
4 Arbor Elf
4 Utopia Sprawl
Obviously the ratios can change depending on how deep into LD you want/need to be, but that's been my starting point each time. I have 3 E witnesses as my minimum and usually 2 Slime as a baseline, but as with everything - we can tweak. I think you'd be surprised to find just how many flex spots there are. If we eschew away from Elf/Sprawl, our mana package can change to utility walls, Garruk, etc.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
I've been making sure to side in 3x Trini against aggro and it makes a huge difference, I'd say they're normally our worst matchup. Locking all spells at 3 > and keeping their mana at <3 is a truely crippling lockout effect, though it requires a bit of an ideal hand to pull off. I don't really like to drop it immediately against other matchups, as it makes our own ramp quite expensive to play, but once I have 4-5 mana sources Trini is coming down. I've been trying to find space for at least 2 in the main as it shuts down a lot of early strategies.
I saw another build that used Ensnaring Bridge but I'm not sure that really fits our strategy well, unless we stick to the Cloudthresher bounce, which I'd really rather not do.
I'm sure some sort of list could be constructed to mitigate Trini/Maze's effects on us, but it may not be better. I love siding in Trini against Burn, Aggro, and Control. Snapcaster Mage-ing a Lightning Bolt is suddenly less attractive when it costs 6. Doesn't bother us, because we've ramped into oblivion pretty quickly and mostly ignore the restriction.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
But when we're already slowing our opponent by one turn per land drop for...1 mana...I'm not really complaining. Frankly I've just convinced myself that Root Maze deserves at least 2 slots in the main board and Trini is just a nice to have, because Arbor Elf is already built in.
Furthermore, I might even look at trading out the Mystics for even more early untap power with Voyaging Satyr, which would have the additional bonus of untapping Nykthos for us...I don't think I have to explain how explosive that could be.
That's...absolutely disgusting. I LOVE IT!
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
I found all I needed was a hand with good ramp, a 4cmc land destruction effect, and either Deus or Primal, and by the time he comes out, the opponent is so far on their back foot he just clears the board in a way no other mainboard threat I've tested has done. I'm leaving in Ballista for now, but frankly I'm tempted to take out Hornet and run 2x Deus. I haven't even tested him with Trinisphere yet, I can't imagine how gross slamming a Trinisphere first would be.
Also, I've found that the deck runs FAR more consistently with the full package of ramp, and after more testing, I'm not really a fan of how Courser gives away our plays. We can ramp fast enough that he's not really necessary, and I got him in place of a ramp card more times than one, where the hand would have otherwise been perfect.
Another testing note, Temur Sabertooth has some serious advantages over Stampeding Serow. 1. We get to choose if/when we bounce. This is huge in itself, as being forced to do anything allows the opponent to play around our board and guess our plays. Also, we can block with Temur+a creature, return creature to hand, and Temur is indestructable. Same with attacking. And we can even trigger temur more than once per turn! And, the biggest one...his ability works the SAME TURN he comes down.
Just a thought...This deck can get to 8 mana pretty easily, what better finisher for us than Ulamog's Crusher? Or even Bane of Bala Ged. I hate to go the cliche Eldrazi-finisher route, but I think they fit quite well with our decks strategy. I had several people tell me that the deck was very good but didn't quite have enough to do with the mana...and if we don't get our combo pieces in the first few turns, they're quite right. It might be worth looking into running a single game-ender to tutor for in case stabilizing isn't an option, or we lose our combo pieces to removal/counters.
I looked at
Primeval Titan, Plow Under, and Primal Command are really my ramp targets. Titan puts you so far ahead of your opponent on mana, on top of our LD, that they can rarely catch up. That, and it's beefy, finds us threats on an empty board (Treetop Village), and has synergy with Courser.
You're right, the deck does what it's trying to do more consistently with the full ramp package. Again, I'm still ramping just as much, just with different cards that give me different options. I like options.
Sabertooth is very appealing to me, especially with the option. However, I really like the P/T of Wildebeests, as well as the trample, which has been relevant more than once.
As for the Crusher/Bane, I'd rather have something with an ETB trigger than wait a turn. Sometimes, when things aren't going so swell, we want our desired effect to occur immediately, though I will concede those creatures are just dirty. What about Sundering Titan?
I've been testing over the last week and have come up with a list with a bit more filtering & CA, though I know you're not a huge fan of Courser haha. I'm sitting at 13 LD with 4 of them being Commands, which of course is also utility. 13 isn't 17, but the ratios aren't all that crazy. Anyhow, I'll post an update after tonight.
Critters: 20
2x Acidic Slime
4x Arbor Elf
3x Courser of Kruphix
1x Elvish Mystic
3x Eternal Witness
1x Hornet Queen
1x Llanowar Elves
2x Primeval Titan
1x Stampeding Wildebeests
1x Thragtusk
1x Walking Ballista
2x Harmonize
3x Plow Under
4x Primal Command
4x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
Planeswalker: 3
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
Enchantments: 4
4x Utopia Sprawl
Lands: 20
17x Forest
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Treetop Village
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2x Chameleon Colossus
2x Fracturing Gust
3x Obstinate Baloth
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Trinisphere
Wish me luck!
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
Round 1: B/W Spirits 0-2
The conspicuous lack of Cloudthresher in my main or side after weeks of never using him comes back to haunt me. More than once I spiked back up close to 20 after my opponent chipped away with 1/1 flying spirit tokens. More than once could I produce 10 mana with a primal command in-hand (to gain 7 and search for Thresher' & evoke it). I did not have Thresher'. Lesson learned.
Round 2: Burn 2-1
He played burn spells and got there super fast game 1. He nuked my T1 dork and Ghost Quarter'd my enchanted land. Games 2 and 3 I have 3 boarded in Obstinate Baloth and get there with mana denial and rising above 20 life.
Round 3: U/R Gifts Storm 2-0
Poor guy doesn't know how to play this list and has only seen about an hour of coverage. He makes frequent misplays (tapping his red mana for draw spells / Baral) and can't quite keep up. Boseiju comes in from the board and his Remands / sided-in Dispels don't do anything to slow me down.
Round 4: Serum Powder Eldrazi 2-0
He's relying on Serum Powder and Simian Spirit Guide to power out Aliens early and out-tempo the opponent. Problem is he's paying 5 cards to do it on turn one and my Turn 2 Acid-Moss removes his sole land and I get my life back and play a Thragtusk with Command. Game 2 I don't even sideboard and do nearly the same play, this time seeing 2 Plow Under off Harmonize.
Round 5: Eldrazi Tron 2-0
He can't seem to keep a land online, much less assemble tron. He casts nothing meaningful and dies to Prime Time & 2 fetched Treetops.
Round 6: Jund 1-2
This was to make Top 8. Game 1 is super grindy for me, but I get there by out-valuing him. Garruk's ultimate with 2 Coursers and 2 Treetops seal the deal after Primal Command-ing his Liliana & gaining 7 life stabilizing me. Game 2 went longer than most of my rounds, seeing me reach 38 life and get beat down by Tireless Tracker and a gigantic Scavenging Ooze. Game 3 I mull to 5 after pitching 2 no-landers. I end up with 2 Forest, 1 Sprawl, 1 Arbor Elf, 1 Acid-Moss, which is a near-godhand. I play Elf and pass. He Duresses my Acid-Moss, Abrupt Decays my Sprawl and I don't see another land for the rest of the game, but I die with 3 Primal Commands in hand.
Thoughts:
1. Courser of Kruphix was amazing. I never wanted to side it out and gained over 25 life in 6 games off it (sometimes with 2 copies in play).
2. Tireless Tracker is amazing and could find a home in our deck, though it occupies the Courser spot. Maybe a 2/2 or 3/3 split would be in order. The CA gained from that card by my Jund opponent, as well as the resilient threat that it is, convinces me it's worth our close scrutiny at the very least.
3. Cloudthresher has a home in the main, potentially over even Hornet Queen, which I actually sided out many games. Queen's great against certain matchups, just not mine and might be better sided in against them.
4. Garruk Wildspeaker is now beyond reproach for me in this list. All 3 of his abilities are relevant, and he can turn a lackluster board state with 1/1, 2/1, and 2/4 dorks into lethal one turn after coming into play. That, and he untaps Utopia Sprawl'd lands and Nykthos, enabling filthy plays.
5. Stampeding Wildebeests / Temur Sabertooth came out in every match for a card either more utilitarian or just plain useful against my opponents. The loop n' lock is great, and probably easier to get going in Neilson's list. In here, not so much. I'm probably just going to cut it for something else.
6. Harmonize was great when cast and drew plain gas. However, it often drew a LD spell I was digging for (plus 2 cards), which is what I removed (Bramblecrush) to make room for Harmonize. At the end of the day, I would like to have more T2/T3 LD or anti-Liliana, The Last Hope spray. The gas wasn't worth the consistency, I'm afraid.
7. Garruk Relentless deserves a look. I picked up 2 copies at the store and am looking to theorycraft him into my build, either as a singleton or 2 copies. This deck could potentially benefit from the reach and removal it offers.
8. Scavenging Ooze deserves a spot in the main for it's absurd utility, if only as a singleton for toolbox.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
2. TT is an exceptional card, and I imagine more so with Courser, but where it really shines is with fetchlands. It has always been an under-performer for me in decks that run mono landbases.
3. Thresher is another great card, but at least in my meta, it doesn't deserve a mainboard spot. I never see lingering souls, ever.
4. He really is good...and I never thought about what he does for our mana dorks. I have 3 and I'm trying to get in a couple, as I have noticed I actually get a statistically high number of hands that are all ramp and nothing to do with it, which says I can probably afford to stretch out the ramp curve into Courser and Garruk just slightly.
5. You know, I found I was doing the same thing, but I think its actually due to a mistake in the way I'm playing. Getting that loop set up is our fallback and if at all possible should be done first, before pulling any main threats, unless we're getting beat to ***** by go-wide aggro.
6. I agree, its a great card but not worth the slot. I actually run 8 4drop LD spells right now, and its made a difference. Speaking of card advantage though, I recently found Lifecrafter's Bestiary when looking to optimize my other mono green deck. While it's not quite as amazing in this deck, since we run slightly less creatures, giving us scry+card advantage is certainly worth looking at. Though there are anti-synergies with Courser, so its probably one or the other, but they both have their advantages. edit:Another card I just found that also grants CA, and actually works with courser, seer's sundial
7. He seems cool, but also very easily disruptable, I'm not sure how I feel about him. Also, doesn't him being Legendary mean we can't have both Garruk's in play?
8. Ol' Scoozy deserves a slot in any green deck lol.
I got stomped on last night. My first game was great but I think I let it get to my head and lost every one after that. I need to remember that this isn't stompy, and that my initial focus is on keeping them off their lands, then setting myself up, then pulling creatures...not immediately pulling creatures.
I don't know about you, but over all I'm very satisfied with this archetype in almost every way except for its lack of Trinisphere. The more I play, the more I feel this deck just begs for trinisphere, and we can get it out as early as T2. Nearly every game I lost last night was due to my opponent getting our under me before I could LD, and then not having the turns to both stabilize and respond with my own threat, which would not have been a concern in the least with Trinisphere.
I absolutely cannot find a single non-foil copy anywhere I look though, which is unfortunate. I might just have to run Root Maze for now, but it doesn't quite feel the same.
I was surprised to learn this upon coming back to MTG, but Wildspeaker would not cause any negative interaction with Relentless in Play due to the newer legendary rules. When Lorwyn came out, they made rule 704.5j which stated:
"If a player controls two or more planeswalkers that share a planeswalker type, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the “planeswalker uniqueness rule.”
This past August, rule 704.5k was added, changing the effect.
"If a player controls two or more legendary permanents with the same name, that player chooses one of them, and the rest are put into their owners’ graveyards. This is called the “legend rule.”
So, this means a few things. One, if the opponent plays a Wildspeaker or Relentless and we have one in hand, we can play it without fear because one player must control both copies of the same card with the same card name in order for one to go to the graveyard. Two, we can have one of each Relentless and Wildspeaker in play since they have different names.
As far as the merits of Garruk Relentless:
His vanilla form produces dorks -1/-1 weaker than Wildspeaker, which can chump the same or get there if necessary.
The following turn he can target that dork, one of our mana dorks, or anything with >3 Power and flip. This can be used as removal as early as Turn 2. That's something we generally can't do at all, but if they stick a problematic creature that has 3 power, we can 1-for-1. Otherwise, it's killing a Scooze, mana dork, Dark Confidant, Thalia, Leonin Arbiter, Goblin Guide, Swiftspear, etc.
Garruk the Veil-Cursed has some merits of his own:
He can produce kill-anything 1/1 wolves.
He can sacrifice that wolf on the next turn or a no-longer-useful mana dork the turn he flips and tutor for anything (furthering the viability of a toolbox).
His ultimate can potentially be better than Wildspeaker's.
Yeah, the general line of play for early turns (1-4 or 5) is Mana Dork > Additional Mana Dork / Enabler > 4 CMC LD > Primal with Diet Plow Under / Plow Under / LD #3. After that it's Go get something big and unfriendly > Smash & LD > Smash & LD > Win.
The problem with setting up the loop is that it requires we focus on it. Sometimes the board is in such a state that I'm more interested in the lifegain & creature search with Primal that I don't yet have time for the loop. Once I get to the point where I've cast 3 Witnesses and recurred Primal 3 times, I'm usually drawing other copies of Primal and would rather just get what's going to win outright. However, you still may be right about it but my list doesn't allow for it as easily as Neilson's.
Trinisphere calls to me in my sleep, and has come in against burn, aggro, and any decks lower to the ground each week. There are some games where it will impact us more than them, but nearly every game it will be dirty on Turn 2. I wouldn't be opposed to maining 3 copies, I just don't know where I'd start with a list to make the most of it.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
I think I like the idea of mainboarding a Primeval in all builds because it immediately sets us up for the magical mana number of 8 for the ewit/primal soft lock the next turn, so if we do end up going without bounce effects, I think Primeval needs to stay for sure, to ensure we at least have the ability to soft lock and lifegain stabilize/tutor for threats.
Really excited to try Lifecrafter's Bestiary in my build, what do you think of trying the seer's sundial with the Coursers in yours? Maybe go down 1 courser for it?
I just found 4x Trini on eBay I'll probably be maining at least 2, with at least 1 side. If you're on untap, message me your username so I can add you, and we can do some mirror matches and brew outside of this forum. And if you're not testing on untap...you really need to try it. Unless of course you're an MTGO guy who laughs at us freeware plebs.
Master of the Wild Hunt sounds pretty great, actually. I do recall you (someone?) mentioning him on the Reddit thread and I totally forgot about that critter. Might be worth it in addition to Garruk, cause I'm greedy and more of a "Why not both?" sorta guy.
I agree, and we maybe only really need one. I mean, it's nice to just cast when you have 6 mana and has an immediate effect on the board state, but we have 5 virtual copies if we're counting Primal. I've liked 2, but never casted 2 in the same game before, so it may be that once he hits he's served his purpose.
I would have a hard time dropping coursers for Sundial personally, as I tried filling that space with Harmonize already (still not sure on it, tbh) and wished it was something else. Maybe there's some trade off with the ratios I'm incapable of seeing right now, as it's hard to experience moderate success and change everything up. At this point, I'd rather have 2 business spells in place of a 4 CMC CA machine. I might change my mind.
I uhh, don't actually have a personal computer I can do anything with atm. At least not anything that can run something more sophisticated than solitaire (crummy netbook + work machine is all I have). I guess that makes me less than a freeware pleb
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
My freeware platform of choice has been XMage. I recommend checking it out if you haven't heard of it before.
FYI -- I've been tinkering with this deck as well and have been 'lurking' in the thread since its creation. Really enjoying the conversation so far. Keep up the good work and testing. Hoping I can chime in with some suggestions as well as the deck evolves.
I pretty much just run 1x of each threat mainboard, with a total of 3-4 threat slots currently, and my sideboard has the more matchup-specific threats. So 1x Primeval already makes sense to me, but if you like to draw him naturally, as the Neilson did with the Cloudthresher, then its a really good card to run 2x of. I saw it argued against a lot in the other thread, but I think that the fact of it bringing us from 6 to the magic 8 lands in a turn was missed. I might even cut a land as I've been getting flooded a lot, and since I run the Elders, no Coursers (as of now) and now Primeval, plus acidmoss, getting natural land drops doesn't matter a whole lot after the initial ramp.
A bit of a tangent off of this vein, some sideboarding advice that I came across recently: Mathematically, the difference between 20 lands on play and 19 lands on the draw is .1% percent...so we can ALWAYS afford to trade in an extra threat from the sideboard for a forest without taking anything else out if we're on the draw G2/3.
As for the removal, again I really do think it'll be far less of a big deal when I can start dropping Trinisphere early, but we need something faster than Ballista, which takes 6-8 lands to become relevant to the board (without Nykthos) and at that point we ideally want Primeval first. I'm not super confident about either Garruk or Master but they might serve their purpose early game.
If you do end up giving sundial a shot, try just going to 2 Coursers and 1 sundial, and remember that harmonize is a sorcery that requires Ewit for recursion, while sundial is a static boost that has great synergy with the other two coursers you're still running. Personally I'll probably be sticking to 1-2 Bestiarys.
Ha! Well luckily untap is a web app, so it might not be as intensive as some of the other applications. I'm running it on my 2011 macbook and its flawless.
Yes! Someone else! lol. It would be great to have as many eyes and minds on this as possible, its easy to get stuck in one way of thinking without more opinions and parallel efforts.
You know I've heard a lot of good things about xMage, but like MTGO, it just doesn't want to run on my mac :/
3 Coursers have been great for me, but I want to find room for Tireless tracker. We can trigger Tracker's ability with standard land drops, Acid-Moss, and Prime Titan. Do we need fetches to make that work (I'm avoiding fetches in mono green).
Neilson's stock list ran 4 Sakura-Tribe Elder and 11 turn 1 acceleration dorks/enchantments. I diversified that ramp in my list with the knowledge I don't get to turn 2 LD as much, but I reliably turn 3 LD pretty often. I'm also running Coursers to help fill the void in turns and stave off / recover from early turns. The mainboard Thrag is also there to help us get back online from a slower start with Primal Command gaining 7 life and finding the Thragtusk.
Optimal opening hands for me are: 2 forest, 1 sprawl, 1 arbor elf, 1 garruk, 1 mwonvuli acid-moss, primal command/plow under/bramblecrush
I generally have pretty keepable hands, but all business spells and only 1 accelerant can be rough.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red