First - an activation of Pod without comboing can still be really good. For example, if you manage to upgrade a 2-drop into rallier and return voice, that can be really good vs control or agro, gumming up the board. Against people holding up bolt, you wouldn't necessarily even want to go for a combo line.
Second - the beauty of kiki-pod back in the day was that every card you could combo with was powerful by itself. That's not remotely true for Hippo, and although Conscripts is better, it's a little hit and miss depending on the match-up.
Third (and probably most importantly) - this new pod is both slower and more vunerable. As a result, building your deck focusing on combo could be troublesome. I think it's more important than ever to have a solid list that works without POD, and slot everything else in around it.
That's EXACTLY what I meant with my old posts, couldn't agree more. I think that the Hippo/Sun Titan/Conscripts package gives too much relevance to Vannifar that, as you said, is quite vulnerable. The aim of the deck is, obviously, the combo, but making it work without it can save your games most of the time.
Anyway, I updated my list:
This list features some improvements to the one I posted a few days ago. I'm pretty happy with it but I feel that it does still need some tweaking.
Pros
Eldritch Evolution, as many of you guys said before, convinced me and proved to be a very useful alternative to Chord of Calling in certain scenarios. More than picking up combo pieces, I've used it very often to pick specific silver bullets and try out some nice plays, like EE -> Sac BoP/Hierarch -> Renegade Rallier that picks up again Hierarch and gives us one more card to tap with Chord. I'm really enjoying EE, so I think it has carved itself a solid place in my list.
Rhythm of the Wild could make the final cut, but as a sideboard card: Domri, sadly, proved to be too slow and Rhythm replaced him effectively. It's a strong card to play in certain matchups, and it helps by empowering our creatures in general more than keeping them safe from counters. It may be too much in the main deck, but I'm really positive about keeping it as a sideboard card (unless I find something more interesting, of course).
I just love how easy and flexible is sideboarding with this list: since there are many one-copy cards useful in very specific scenarios, swapping between main deck and sideboard is simple and effective.
I'm pretty happy with the manabase, I think I've finally found a good balance between colors, fetches, shocklands and utilities (maybe just Gavony is a liiitle bit uncertain).
Cons
Dead starting hands used to happen often with the previous list, but, even if their frequence has been lowered significantly, it still happens a bit too often. If I don't start with at least one mana dork and two lands, it's really easy to get stuck. That's the reason why I added another Noble Hierarch and a land, but I'm not sure if it is enough. Are you guys having the same problem? If not, how did you manage to solve it?
I'm still unsure about the number of copies of certain cards: there are some I could add a more copy of (Scryb Ranger, Eternal Witness, Noble Hierarch) and some I could remove one copy of (Deceiver Exarch, Kitchen Finks, Renegade Rallier), not sure about how to balance that.
I'm not entirely sure about playing Voice of Resurgence: I've always loved that card, and it sure sinergizes well with Vannifar and Evolution, but is it worth playing or it could give some space to other useful things?
What do you guys think? Are you testing some other interesting cards?
@Sgears - a few thoughts on your list... I'm going to put them in this box because it got tooo long.
I think Hallowed Fountain will likely be better as a 2nd Breeding Pool. The rest of your mana looks good to me, I like the single Township.
I really like how you have incorporated vannifar, evo and chord. They all have unique upside and also their own issues. However, I think the execution might be slightly off. I'll try explain my opinion rather than just give it!
So I'm playing "kiki-chord" this week (in preparation) and so don't have access to POD. However, it runs 3 Evo and 2 Chord. By switching those numbers around, I feel like you've added more clunk and removed some speed. THEN you're adding extra 4 drops in the form of Vannifar. My first recommendation would be to either drop the 3rd chord entirely, or swap it for Evo - otherwise I think your deck might be a little too slow.
I agree that your numbers might be slightly off. We have both recently said how you need to build the deck without the combo in mind, and then just have that as a way to close a game. Because of that, I think the 2nd Deceiver and possibly the 2nd Rallier should be cut. In addition, I always look at Shalai and think "that won't protect my vannifar", and I think there's better things to evo into.
I think Finks is better when you run hippo (since finks can turn into combo kill that way), and you're not running those. I'd like to see both of those finks replaced with more knight of autumn, since its just a slightly more flexible card. It helps you in some of your trickier match-ups.
I don't actually think you have a lot to go grab with your Evo if you sac a 2 or 3 drop. I'm currently testing Pia and Kiran Nalaar as that "combos" nicely with Voice + Evo, and its been great when behind on board or when you just need to deploy as many threats as possible vs control (think it's better than Shalai). I also think your current build could utilise a Reveillark over the 2nd Kiki-Jiki. It'll act as a combo piece some amount of the time, and the rest of the time, lets you play a value game.
On Voice of Resurgence - I think it's great vs anything not combo. So, it probably is worth a slot. I could easily see it becoming Wall of Omens if you're worried about hitting your land drops though.
It's also possible that you want some removal MD. Knight covers most bases, but when you're playing a more midrange/controlling strategy, I think Deputy of Detention becomes a bit of a liability. It may be that a Glorybringer is worth considering, or perhaps just some MD Path.
I realise there's quite a few changes that I've suggested there. But, what it comes down to is reducing the reliance on comboing, increasing the toolbox options, and reducing the clunkiness. If I were taking your list for a spin, this is what i'd probably do:
-1 Chord +1 Witness
-1 Kiki-Jiki +1 Reveillark
-1 Deceiver +1 Scooze
-2 Finks +2 Knight of Autumn
-1 Shalai +1 Pia and Kiran
-1 Fountain + Breeding Pool
-1 Deputy of Detention +1 Voice of Resurgence
I think those changes give you plenty of ways to gum up the board, helping you beat agro, midrange and control. I can't see too many decks plowing through 2x Scooze, 3x knight, 2x resto easily, and even Voice, Wall of Roots, Deceiver, Rallier & Pia & Kiran gum up the board nicely. That also gives you value vs midrange/control, which is great.
You then have a bunch of low-curving creatures to sac to Evo to fetch up SB bullets. FWIW, I think Kataki & Staticaster are pretty poor right now, and with the changes I suggested, I doubt the 4th Knight is necessary! Tireless Tracker may be worth considering as a value card that avoids the GY, though it's likely unnecessary. I think 2-3x Damping Sphere would be great in your list. I also think 1-2 Fiery Justice would be nice too, if you can find room (I personally think Rhythm of the Wild would be on the chopping block, along with those less good bullets).
Sorry for the wall of text! Although I've given quite a few suggestions there, I do really like your list. IMO at least, you're heading down the right direction and perhaps just need to commit to it more. I'm stealing the idea of chord + Evo though!
I think I'm going to test Sylvan Safekeeper as an alternative to Spellskite to protect Kiki-Jiki that I can tutor up with Ranger of Eos.
If it is good enough for Legacy I think it has a fair shot in Modern.
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Re: avalanche riders vs fulminator: I think the two big pluses in avalanche’s case are that you can sac it to Vannifar after it blows up a land and that it works well with flicker effects. Fulminator might be better in a list that goes sun titan? It’s also worth noting that if you go with fewer R mana sources, riders is easier to cast.
What protection creatures are you all thinking for the MB? I’ve seen spellskite, selfless spirit, shalai, and glen elendra. I think I personally like spellskite and shalai as 1-ofs. If we go with Ranger of Eos, dauntless bodyguard could be a possibility as well?
I definitely like the route of going less into the combo. I almost wonder if it’s worth cutting the Kiki combo and going black for more disruption.
I think I'm going to test Sylvan Safekeeper as an alternative to Spellskite to protect Kiki-Jiki that I can tutor up with Ranger of Eos.
If it is good enough for Legacy I think it has a fair shot in Modern.
That would be a sick option if it were modern legal would highly likely singlehandedly make the Devoted Druid decks tier 1.
I personally don't see much of going less into the combo, trading creatures one for one and only once each turn seems a bit clunky to me. Especially with Vannifar being legendary so drawing multiples without giving them haste somehow is disaster. With pod there were times, when you activated two or three pods per turn and that did the thing. But swapping creatures from 4th turn without combo... I mean, T1 Bird, T2 finks, T3 Vannifar doesn't do much against many opponents, control wraths the board, BGx has removal, burn kills T3 ideally, dredge almost the same... Without presenting a lethal next or same turn vannifar enters the game, playing 2/4 with nothing upon entering is a bad joke.
If it was for the utility creature shell, than it should be creatures, that somehow hoses other strategies, Magus of the moon, elesh norn, Iona... just playing something and doing nothing isn't fast enough. Just saying
Maybe I'm too sceptic, but with field infested with dredge, hollow ones, spirits and burn I just don't want to sit and do nothing, when other side of table is killing me almost without resistance.
Unfortunately I'm not able to do any testing now, so it's just some thoughts and struggles I've been into lately.
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zyrgul_CZ - but you've hit the nail on the head there... you want a way to kill on Turn 4 if you untap with Vannifar. But you also want to be able to disrupt in the meantime.
A card like Knight of Autumn is relevant vs hollow one (disenchant), burn (gain life), spirits (aether vial poof or gain 4)... flexible creatures that gain value when they come into play let you pod them without any worries. I honestly think the key is finding the right bullets, and finding them fast enough.
Also remember not every deck is trying to kill you on Turn 3-4. If you are against BGx or UWx, then Vannifar is just another threat they have to deal with. Thats fine. Having cards like Finks, Voice, Witness etc that are a little harder to kill makes you resilient in those MUs.
I'm personally quite optimistic. My list is changing daily even without testing, thanks to this group and the discord.
@thErgonomic - Spellskite is my go-to protection spell. You can cast it BEFORE you cast Vannifar, which is basically all i'm interested in when I'm racing. If my hand is all-in on combo-ing fast (my build isn't really combo focused, but it'll have hands that just have to try race), then I want Spellskite down before I play vannifar. Negate and Shalai fail in that spot imo. I'd rather run Spell Pierce than Negate, though I admittedly run Spell Pierce more than anyone healthy should!
Imho serious considerations for rhythm should also merit serious considerations for saheeli rai. Dork, saheeli, felidar gives you another t3 kill. Saheeli can copy vannifar t3 for a bolt proof kill because the copy has haste. Vannifar chains can already utilize felidar if you flicker something like bounding krasis, which although requires some battlefield presence isn't asking for much, guardian also combos with Kiki. These pieces don't have to amount for a full 8 slots, they could easily be 4-8 slots. It makes the deck surprisingly resilient because if your opponent taps out with saheeli on board t2 they risk losing to either 4 drop (felidar/Vannifar). These situations are very reminiscent of twin. What creatures are rhythms making into serious combat threats? Not many because very few are all that decent standalone in combat when you're facing down endless phoenixes and T1-2 hollow ones and gurmags.
Chord always gets slow without a lot of the grindier set up cards like voice and rallier that give you a sticky board presence. Not sure that's something you can afford going up against a deck like KCI or storm. Unfortunately coco isn't super viable here and I don't like evolution without cards like lotus cobra and I think the deck is going to be too tight for that.
militia bugler hits a surprising percentage of the deck.
Lemme hear a shoutout for my boy void grafter >_>. No one ever sees him coming.
Given how fast the format is, I'd say that counting on something else than the combo to win is delusional. Birthing Pod was able to do that because it was one turn faster, you could search for your bullet pretty fast. Nowadays the best option for that kind of play is Eldritch Evolution. In all fairness, Pod lost most of G1s to very fast openings from decks like Ascendancy Combo, Burn, Affinity, Tron... So don't expect Vannifar to do as good or better while she's one turn slower. If by any magic we're still alive on turn 4/5, we must combo off, because it's too late for silver bullets to save the day.
So cards like Knight of Autumn are not even a given in the deck. It's a debatable card in GW Value Town, Vizier Company and so on because it's truly a SB card and doesn't help win as many G1s as people wish.
I'm not entirely sure about playing Voice of Resurgence: I've always loved that card, and it sure sinergizes well with Vannifar and Evolution, but is it worth playing or it could give some space to other useful things?
Another good example. Back in the day it fought Jund, Abzan, Twin, nowadays where is it good ? Wall of Omens, Coiling Oracle might be cards to consider.
I actually played Pod in Modern recently to figure out whether Shaheen Soorani was out of his mind or not about Pod being unbannable. Well, believe me or not, I struggled real hard against the Tier 1 decks (while I was a dedicated Pod player back in the day). Kiki Pod is closer to Vannifar because both decks focus on the combo, while Thune Pod rather is the Value Town. My point is the meta is so hostile to midrange decks, that playing Vannifar in a midrange shell is no good. It has to be a combo shell in my humble opinion.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
I've used apostle's blessing to protect various creature and saheeli combos (with liquimetal coating :sunny:). Given the mana base, it is probably worth keeping in mind as I think the 2 life is marginal when it's so easy to cast. Especially if we are considering bouncing forests to our hand non-stop off scryb. The G for blossoming defense to protect the combo isn't always going to be around. Even more so if we eat a dork to start our chain without thinking ahead. I think if you are all in on the combo and looking to protect it, apostle's blessing is probably where you want to be in almost every match except burn. The +2/+2 from blossoming can be relevant if you have to be the beat down and shut the door, but it's really not super common for modern decks to have to default to a plan B/C - let alone run mainboard cards that potentially only shine in those scenarios. Blessing can also let you slip past blockers (not that anything in this deck is hitting for more than 2-3 points of damage anyway).
@daviusminimus I get it, but how are you going to search for exactly one Knight of autumn? When you have Vannifar active, then it's just better to combo off, Chord demands 6 mana to do that so T3 with bird and wall of roots on it's best. the only way is EE by sacing bird, for example. On T2 it leaves you with two land, dead mana dork and one silver bullet, which actually just hurt the opponent but didn't kill him. I know, gaining life against burn is crucial, but 4 life with no meaningful threat on the board is nothing. Killing one hollow one with 2 remaining is nothing. repeating the process via restoration angel is fine, but you can't possibly do that the next turn. What i want my silver bullets to do is to entirely shut off opponent's way to win in the way RiP hoses graveyard shenanigans or Stony silence shuts off artifacts. For me much better card against burn is eidolon of rhetoric but they still have the option to get through with creatures. However it buys you enough time to stabilize/gain life/find combo when landed early.
As I see it, cards we consider "silver bullets" should have permanent effect or should be able to be fired up repeatedly from a gatling, but one shot even from winchester deals nothing to many decks.
As a long time Jund player (switched to Jund after banning of pod), decks I really wanted to see across the table were creature toolboxes and other similar stuff. The deck has so much disruption, it's awesome. It's just about killing mana dork T1 on the draw and good discard T1 on the play, then you just keep deploying threats and keep mana up for targeted removal for anything comboish. Only headache was collected company, because it gave the possibility to recover from disruption.
I aggree on the Spellskite though
@mapccu I love Saheeli and I'm curious if she will fit in this deck, if so, that would be awesome
I'm going to start by sharing my list, because I think that might answer some questions from Zyrgul_CZ, Headminerve (not questions as such, just a counter point), Sgears:
Lands
2 Breeding Pool
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
3 Chord of Calling
2 Path to Exile
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Deceiver Exarch
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Knight of Autumn
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Prime Speaker Vannifar
1 Renegade Rallier
3 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Spellskite
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wall of Roots
//Sideboard
1 Avalanche Riders
3 Damping Sphere
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fiery Justice
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Remorseful Cleric
1 Tireless Tracker
Hopefully you can see how I'm at least TRYING to build the deck. There's a few things I might try to squeeze into the sideboard (rending volley and possibly an extra avalanche riders) but you can see the idea hopefully.
The plan for me is to try and grind in Game 1. So @zyrgul / headminerve - I'm running multiple Knight of Autumns to increase the chance of drawing it. There's a lot of sticky creatures to help chord be live earlier, and there's enough disruptive creatures to at least keep people off balance. You can use Deceiver to tap down lands, Knight (2) for whatever mode is necessary, Scooze (2), Spellskite and kinda voice/walls specifically against agro. Add in the Resto Angels to reuse the key effects, and you have a way to slow down the faster decks whilst developing your own game plan (plus path). Now, I'm not saying this makes us favoured against KCI/Storm, because it doesn't. But what it does mean is that there's a chance to steal Game 1 without it ruining your game against agro/control/midrange. Postboard, I have a tonne of stuff I can bring in to help (ravenous trap, remorseful cleric, damping sphere and eidolon are all great vs KCI/Storm).
That's the route i'm going to start out on anyway. However, I appreciate there's more than 1 way to skin a cat (weird phrase used in the UK). Here's what I'd play if i were going full-on combo, trying to race everyone.
//Lands
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
The idea here is that you have redundancy thanks to Saheeli Cat, and you have Pod kills on top. If you happen to go T1 Dork, T2 Saheeli, T3 Pod, you'll win on the spot without Kiki (just felidar cat). If you dont have haste for POD, you can combo on Turn 4. It also keeps the old god-hand of T1 Bop, T2 Cobra + Fetch + Rallier + Saheeli + Evo - 7 perfect cards for a turn 2 kill (and your draw step left in hand)!!! Because this list is so combo focused, there's very few value cards or top-end (Shalai is the top end / protection, and that's it). There's plenty of ways to dig with Oath + Oracle, which are all repeatable with Saheeli, Rallier, Kiki + Felidar. Because of this approach, I'm sure Hall of the Bandit Lord is worthwhile, allowing a Turn 3 kill with Pod without needing Saheeli.
The sideboard here is more focused, trying to deal with problematic cards in whatever form they turn up (spell pierce and path dealing with specific 1-ofs). Tracker and Thragtusk are value cards that avoid the GY, so you have a better chance vs UW if they board in RIP. Knights might be wrong here, but I wanted some lifegain in the SB, so they seemed to fit nicely there.
Hope the decklists help share my opinion on the deck... basically, I think it's best to either commit to combo or commit to value, and don't sit somewhere in the middle (e.g. Chord lists with Hippo + Zealous Conscripts). Obviously you then have to build the whole 75 with that in mind.
1 last thing I want to mention... I've seen people writing stuff like "cant come up with a SB until I know how the deck plays". I think that's a load of rubbish! If they deck plays well, you'll need a SB. If it doesn't, well the SB doesn't fix that. What I've been doing as part of the theory-crafting is saying "what cards are weak against deck x", and then going "what would I board in". I've spent a good few hours looking at each MU and trying to fill in the blanks. The numbers in my lists aren't random. It may be that the actual cards themselves are not correct, but the roles should be (e.g. removal for Titi, hate for KCI etc).
It's a list leaning heavy onto combo using Postmortem Lunge, I guess since you expect Vannifar to get killed it's a way of playing it the next turn regardless
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- Humans
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@daviusminimus first I have to apologise, seems that my old manners kicked in and I have slipped to harsh expressions. I menat no offense, it was just I had the feeling, that everyone here is so excited about the return of the king, respectively pod, that they forgot about hostility of today's meta. I mean, even pod is too slow to play some mind gmaes with value creatures.
My friend played vizier company and the best performance it had was, whent the deck was fully dedicated to combo, either to infinite life or killing with ballista. The half combo half value version was simply much worse.
I like both your lists though, obviously I prefer the second one, which is similar to something I was thinking about. The Hippo + conscripts shell is fully dedicated to combo out with Vannifar, as mentioned in Sam Pardee's article. There are some things I like, especially postmortem lunge to revive any dead part of the combo, but I do not like the vision of woodland bellower and four krasis, which could lead to some awkward draws and mulligans.
Hey, I just remembert a pearl I used to play in Evo/Chord deck, Cataclysmic gearhulk it was fantastic in some matchups, aggro especially, but I don't know whether it will do the same now.
One last thing, don't get me, that I'm just sitting here and criticising everything without actually thinking about the deck, I do, but I'll have access to my cards on friday evening and without feeling them in my hand it's just too hard to concentrate
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The Sam Pardee list looks awful to me. For a start, I think Sun Titan is a better Woodland Bellower for the most part. Second, because he's running Bellower, he's running Bounding Krasis, which is also pretty bad when compared to deceiver (which can tap down lands on Turn 2).
The idea of running Postmortem Lunge is an interesting 1, but 4 copies looks excessive. The deck also looks like it does absolute 0 without Vannifar itself. I'm also a bit baffled by the Phantasmal Image? There's no combo to speak of with it, though it can be a way to combo with a 1-drop + 2-drop if you have no ranger left over (though that's not true if the ranger is in the GY, since you can get rallier).
In a nutshell, his deck has no interaction, and only has 1 way to give vannifar haste first time around (postmortem lunge is no good when you first try to combo). As a result, it's VERY unlikely to combo on turn 3, meaning on the draw, you need everyone you face to be slower than turn 5. The deck has almost 0 interaction on its way.
I can't imagine Pardee's list doing much, but I've been wrong before and will be wrong again!!!
@zyrgul_CZ - oh there was nothing harsh, nothing personal! Just sharing ideas Also, I think Cataclysmic Gearhulk should be in the SB of any Eldritch Evo decks we come up with, so I need to add it to mine.
I think there's a couple of routes to try out, and everyone is going to have different opinions on the best starting point. Only testing and actually playing the cards will tell us for sure. But, theory-crafting is always fun
Personally I don’t want to count out a value-heavy list just because old Pod decks eventually dropped combo altogether even when twin and probe combos were around. I said already that I think our best strength is going to be a good game against fair decks, though I see the strength in threatening a combo kill every turn Vannifar is out. I need to do a lot more testing anyways.
What are people thinking for anti-control in the sideboard? I was figuring shalai and maybe prowling serpopard. Could either Thalia work in some amount?
@twakatsonic - I think my plan vs Control is just to deploy as many threats as possible. Vannifar is obviously a threat, as is Voice of Resurgence. Picking them back up with Witness and potentially saving them or getting more value with resto's seems pretty solid too. Being able to play on end step will be useful as well.
I honestly think my 1st decklist is pretty well set vs control, but I would likely sideboard out a few mana dorks and probably the scryb ranger + spellskite (since 'skite doesn't really matter when you are on a value train). I can't see too many spots where the opponent taps out and doesn't deal with vannifar, so I don't need to commit to combo. I want to bring in more must-answer or sticky threats, but I'd like to avoid the GY. As a result, I think I'll just run some tireless trackers / thragtusks etc. It's also pretty reasonable to tempo out control by end-stepping a deceiver, running out an avalance rider then flicker it with resto. That'll be my aim!
If I'm playing the all-in combo deck, I just want to bring in cards that can protect the combo as best as possible, which is likely spell pierce, plus any value creatures I have laying around.
one way or other way, it has to be tested and it will need some time to tune the decklists if it is a viable strategy. Really hate losing value in cards, which seem busted at first glance, but time proves them wrong. I can't tell you how happy I was, when I saw Assassin's trophy, i can't tell you about my disappointment either.
I'm thinking about the control matchup and as it has been before, voice is probably the best card available, makes bodies, leaves body upon dying, bouncing with Jace or Teferi probably wont help much because there should be already some tokens to do their work. If we make control player to play on sorcery speed instead of instant, we have almost won. How about selfless spirit against sweepers? Thragtusk is also great, decent body, life gain, leaves token even when blinked. Another solid card could be Huntmaster of the fells I played him/her a lot. If we stay out of Chord, Gaddock teeg also comes to mind.
Maybe we could do some list of mostly played archetypes, their goal and pick good/bad cards against them, then the most common among them could be maindeckable, some of them sideboardable and the worst of the worst will get the kick man, it's gonna be hard to forget Jund playstyle for a while. As it seems to me, then
synergistic aggro - humans, spirits - lifegain, board sweep and back in the day ghostly prison and worship + hexproof dude made aggro strategies sick
dredge - permanent graveyard removal, one shot does nothing except for hitting conflagrate, huge lifegain now with chill on the list, and sometimes they can struggle after good land denial with loam in their hand/gy and no green mana to cast it for.
control - early resilient threats or hasty threats
good ol' BGx - resilient threats, protection on creatures
burn - life gain
storm - spell denial, gy removal
that's all that came to my mind for now, especially because my playtesting would involve these decks amongst my friends
So let's start brainstorming...
how about sun titan in saheeli/vannifar shell? it would be probably hard to get him just with vannifar if there were no zealous conscripts (I know, I know, they are bad) but it could recur saheeli if needed which could lead to insta win, based on board state. Just imagine saheeli gets killed in response to felidar trigger, you sac felidar, chain for sun titan, recur saheeli... it's a question, whether you have enough cards available to combo out, but in magic christmas land...
edit: what about body double as a 5cmc target? I'm still thinking about reveillark substitutes, because it does nothing when searched for, if I remember it right.
what about body double as a 5cmc target? I'm still thinking about reveillark substitutes, because it does nothing when searched for, if I remember it right.
Body Double copying what? Remember that when it copies a creature its CMC becomes the copied creatures CMC.
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I know, I know, it could copy anything dead, so scryb ranger, rallier... obviously it will not work with sun titan
it was meant instead of Reveillark, to copy anything dead instead of recurring it when reveillark leaves the field
That's EXACTLY what I meant with my old posts, couldn't agree more. I think that the Hippo/Sun Titan/Conscripts package gives too much relevance to Vannifar that, as you said, is quite vulnerable. The aim of the deck is, obviously, the combo, but making it work without it can save your games most of the time.
Anyway, I updated my list:
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Spellskite
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Wall of Roots
2 Renegade Rallier
2 Deceiver Exarch
1 Deputy of Detention
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Knight of Autumn
3 Prime Speaker Vannifar
2 Restoration Angel
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Chord of Calling
2 Eldritch Evolution
Lands[23]
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Gavony Township
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Rhythm of the Wild
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Knight of Autumn
3 Path to Exile
1 Remorseful Cleric
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thragtusk
This list features some improvements to the one I posted a few days ago. I'm pretty happy with it but I feel that it does still need some tweaking.
Pros
What do you guys think? Are you testing some other interesting cards?
I think Hallowed Fountain will likely be better as a 2nd Breeding Pool. The rest of your mana looks good to me, I like the single Township.
I really like how you have incorporated vannifar, evo and chord. They all have unique upside and also their own issues. However, I think the execution might be slightly off. I'll try explain my opinion rather than just give it!
So I'm playing "kiki-chord" this week (in preparation) and so don't have access to POD. However, it runs 3 Evo and 2 Chord. By switching those numbers around, I feel like you've added more clunk and removed some speed. THEN you're adding extra 4 drops in the form of Vannifar. My first recommendation would be to either drop the 3rd chord entirely, or swap it for Evo - otherwise I think your deck might be a little too slow.
I agree that your numbers might be slightly off. We have both recently said how you need to build the deck without the combo in mind, and then just have that as a way to close a game. Because of that, I think the 2nd Deceiver and possibly the 2nd Rallier should be cut. In addition, I always look at Shalai and think "that won't protect my vannifar", and I think there's better things to evo into.
I think Finks is better when you run hippo (since finks can turn into combo kill that way), and you're not running those. I'd like to see both of those finks replaced with more knight of autumn, since its just a slightly more flexible card. It helps you in some of your trickier match-ups.
I don't actually think you have a lot to go grab with your Evo if you sac a 2 or 3 drop. I'm currently testing Pia and Kiran Nalaar as that "combos" nicely with Voice + Evo, and its been great when behind on board or when you just need to deploy as many threats as possible vs control (think it's better than Shalai). I also think your current build could utilise a Reveillark over the 2nd Kiki-Jiki. It'll act as a combo piece some amount of the time, and the rest of the time, lets you play a value game.
On Voice of Resurgence - I think it's great vs anything not combo. So, it probably is worth a slot. I could easily see it becoming Wall of Omens if you're worried about hitting your land drops though.
It's also possible that you want some removal MD. Knight covers most bases, but when you're playing a more midrange/controlling strategy, I think Deputy of Detention becomes a bit of a liability. It may be that a Glorybringer is worth considering, or perhaps just some MD Path.
I realise there's quite a few changes that I've suggested there. But, what it comes down to is reducing the reliance on comboing, increasing the toolbox options, and reducing the clunkiness. If I were taking your list for a spin, this is what i'd probably do:
-1 Chord +1 Witness
-1 Kiki-Jiki +1 Reveillark
-1 Deceiver +1 Scooze
-2 Finks +2 Knight of Autumn
-1 Shalai +1 Pia and Kiran
-1 Fountain + Breeding Pool
-1 Deputy of Detention +1 Voice of Resurgence
I think those changes give you plenty of ways to gum up the board, helping you beat agro, midrange and control. I can't see too many decks plowing through 2x Scooze, 3x knight, 2x resto easily, and even Voice, Wall of Roots, Deceiver, Rallier & Pia & Kiran gum up the board nicely. That also gives you value vs midrange/control, which is great.
You then have a bunch of low-curving creatures to sac to Evo to fetch up SB bullets. FWIW, I think Kataki & Staticaster are pretty poor right now, and with the changes I suggested, I doubt the 4th Knight is necessary! Tireless Tracker may be worth considering as a value card that avoids the GY, though it's likely unnecessary. I think 2-3x Damping Sphere would be great in your list. I also think 1-2 Fiery Justice would be nice too, if you can find room (I personally think Rhythm of the Wild would be on the chopping block, along with those less good bullets).
Sorry for the wall of text! Although I've given quite a few suggestions there, I do really like your list. IMO at least, you're heading down the right direction and perhaps just need to commit to it more. I'm stealing the idea of chord + Evo though!
If it is good enough for Legacy I think it has a fair shot in Modern.
Remember, I don't know *****. ...Oh chungus I forgot that the PG-13 rules are enforced.
What protection creatures are you all thinking for the MB? I’ve seen spellskite, selfless spirit, shalai, and glen elendra. I think I personally like spellskite and shalai as 1-ofs. If we go with Ranger of Eos, dauntless bodyguard could be a possibility as well?
I definitely like the route of going less into the combo. I almost wonder if it’s worth cutting the Kiki combo and going black for more disruption.
That would be a sick option if it were modern legal would highly likely singlehandedly make the Devoted Druid decks tier 1.
On a more serious note. What are peoples' favourite cards for protecting Kiki-Jiki?
Mine are Shalai, Voice of Plenty, Spellskite and Negate.
Also, do we still call using the ability that Vannifar has Poding?
Remember, I don't know *****. ...Oh chungus I forgot that the PG-13 rules are enforced.
If it was for the utility creature shell, than it should be creatures, that somehow hoses other strategies, Magus of the moon, elesh norn, Iona... just playing something and doing nothing isn't fast enough. Just saying
Maybe I'm too sceptic, but with field infested with dredge, hollow ones, spirits and burn I just don't want to sit and do nothing, when other side of table is killing me almost without resistance.
Unfortunately I'm not able to do any testing now, so it's just some thoughts and struggles I've been into lately.
"Aut vincere aut mori"
A card like Knight of Autumn is relevant vs hollow one (disenchant), burn (gain life), spirits (aether vial poof or gain 4)... flexible creatures that gain value when they come into play let you pod them without any worries. I honestly think the key is finding the right bullets, and finding them fast enough.
Also remember not every deck is trying to kill you on Turn 3-4. If you are against BGx or UWx, then Vannifar is just another threat they have to deal with. Thats fine. Having cards like Finks, Voice, Witness etc that are a little harder to kill makes you resilient in those MUs.
I'm personally quite optimistic. My list is changing daily even without testing, thanks to this group and the discord.
@thErgonomic - Spellskite is my go-to protection spell. You can cast it BEFORE you cast Vannifar, which is basically all i'm interested in when I'm racing. If my hand is all-in on combo-ing fast (my build isn't really combo focused, but it'll have hands that just have to try race), then I want Spellskite down before I play vannifar. Negate and Shalai fail in that spot imo. I'd rather run Spell Pierce than Negate, though I admittedly run Spell Pierce more than anyone healthy should!
Imho serious considerations for rhythm should also merit serious considerations for saheeli rai. Dork, saheeli, felidar gives you another t3 kill. Saheeli can copy vannifar t3 for a bolt proof kill because the copy has haste. Vannifar chains can already utilize felidar if you flicker something like bounding krasis, which although requires some battlefield presence isn't asking for much, guardian also combos with Kiki. These pieces don't have to amount for a full 8 slots, they could easily be 4-8 slots. It makes the deck surprisingly resilient because if your opponent taps out with saheeli on board t2 they risk losing to either 4 drop (felidar/Vannifar). These situations are very reminiscent of twin. What creatures are rhythms making into serious combat threats? Not many because very few are all that decent standalone in combat when you're facing down endless phoenixes and T1-2 hollow ones and gurmags.
Chord always gets slow without a lot of the grindier set up cards like voice and rallier that give you a sticky board presence. Not sure that's something you can afford going up against a deck like KCI or storm. Unfortunately coco isn't super viable here and I don't like evolution without cards like lotus cobra and I think the deck is going to be too tight for that.
militia bugler hits a surprising percentage of the deck.
Lemme hear a shoutout for my boy void grafter >_>. No one ever sees him coming.
So cards like Knight of Autumn are not even a given in the deck. It's a debatable card in GW Value Town, Vizier Company and so on because it's truly a SB card and doesn't help win as many G1s as people wish.
Another good example. Back in the day it fought Jund, Abzan, Twin, nowadays where is it good ? Wall of Omens, Coiling Oracle might be cards to consider.
I actually played Pod in Modern recently to figure out whether Shaheen Soorani was out of his mind or not about Pod being unbannable. Well, believe me or not, I struggled real hard against the Tier 1 decks (while I was a dedicated Pod player back in the day). Kiki Pod is closer to Vannifar because both decks focus on the combo, while Thune Pod rather is the Value Town. My point is the meta is so hostile to midrange decks, that playing Vannifar in a midrange shell is no good. It has to be a combo shell in my humble opinion.
I think the deck’s going to have bad G1s against combo but that’s just how the meta goes. You can’t have good matchups against every deck.
Remember, I don't know *****. ...Oh chungus I forgot that the PG-13 rules are enforced.
As I see it, cards we consider "silver bullets" should have permanent effect or should be able to be fired up repeatedly from a gatling, but one shot even from winchester deals nothing to many decks.
As a long time Jund player (switched to Jund after banning of pod), decks I really wanted to see across the table were creature toolboxes and other similar stuff. The deck has so much disruption, it's awesome. It's just about killing mana dork T1 on the draw and good discard T1 on the play, then you just keep deploying threats and keep mana up for targeted removal for anything comboish. Only headache was collected company, because it gave the possibility to recover from disruption.
I aggree on the Spellskite though
@mapccu I love Saheeli and I'm curious if she will fit in this deck, if so, that would be awesome
@headminerve exactly
"Aut vincere aut mori"
Lands
2 Breeding Pool
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
3 Chord of Calling
2 Path to Exile
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Deceiver Exarch
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Knight of Autumn
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Prime Speaker Vannifar
1 Renegade Rallier
3 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Spellskite
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wall of Roots
//Sideboard
1 Avalanche Riders
3 Damping Sphere
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fiery Justice
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Remorseful Cleric
1 Tireless Tracker
The plan for me is to try and grind in Game 1. So @zyrgul / headminerve - I'm running multiple Knight of Autumns to increase the chance of drawing it. There's a lot of sticky creatures to help chord be live earlier, and there's enough disruptive creatures to at least keep people off balance. You can use Deceiver to tap down lands, Knight (2) for whatever mode is necessary, Scooze (2), Spellskite and kinda voice/walls specifically against agro. Add in the Resto Angels to reuse the key effects, and you have a way to slow down the faster decks whilst developing your own game plan (plus path). Now, I'm not saying this makes us favoured against KCI/Storm, because it doesn't. But what it does mean is that there's a chance to steal Game 1 without it ruining your game against agro/control/midrange. Postboard, I have a tonne of stuff I can bring in to help (ravenous trap, remorseful cleric, damping sphere and eidolon are all great vs KCI/Storm).
That's the route i'm going to start out on anyway. However, I appreciate there's more than 1 way to skin a cat (weird phrase used in the UK). Here's what I'd play if i were going full-on combo, trying to race everyone.
//Lands
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Coiling Oracle
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Deputy of Detention
3 Felidar Guardian
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Prime Speaker Vannifar
3 Renegade Rallier
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
//Sideboard
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fiery Justice
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Knight of Autumn
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thragtusk
2 Tireless Tracker
The sideboard here is more focused, trying to deal with problematic cards in whatever form they turn up (spell pierce and path dealing with specific 1-ofs). Tracker and Thragtusk are value cards that avoid the GY, so you have a better chance vs UW if they board in RIP. Knights might be wrong here, but I wanted some lifegain in the SB, so they seemed to fit nicely there.
Hope the decklists help share my opinion on the deck... basically, I think it's best to either commit to combo or commit to value, and don't sit somewhere in the middle (e.g. Chord lists with Hippo + Zealous Conscripts). Obviously you then have to build the whole 75 with that in mind.
1 last thing I want to mention... I've seen people writing stuff like "cant come up with a SB until I know how the deck plays". I think that's a load of rubbish! If they deck plays well, you'll need a SB. If it doesn't, well the SB doesn't fix that. What I've been doing as part of the theory-crafting is saying "what cards are weak against deck x", and then going "what would I board in". I've spent a good few hours looking at each MU and trying to fill in the blanks. The numbers in my lists aren't random. It may be that the actual cards themselves are not correct, but the roles should be (e.g. removal for Titi, hate for KCI etc).
On a more positive note...
1 day to go!!!!
On the topic of Value vs Straight Combo, has anyone else checked out the list by Sam Pardee?
Mtgoldfish list (different one!) https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/prime-speaker-vannifar-with-kiki-combo-in-modern/
It's a list leaning heavy onto combo using Postmortem Lunge, I guess since you expect Vannifar to get killed it's a way of playing it the next turn regardless
Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo
My friend played vizier company and the best performance it had was, whent the deck was fully dedicated to combo, either to infinite life or killing with ballista. The half combo half value version was simply much worse.
I like both your lists though, obviously I prefer the second one, which is similar to something I was thinking about. The Hippo + conscripts shell is fully dedicated to combo out with Vannifar, as mentioned in Sam Pardee's article. There are some things I like, especially postmortem lunge to revive any dead part of the combo, but I do not like the vision of woodland bellower and four krasis, which could lead to some awkward draws and mulligans.
Hey, I just remembert a pearl I used to play in Evo/Chord deck, Cataclysmic gearhulk it was fantastic in some matchups, aggro especially, but I don't know whether it will do the same now.
One last thing, don't get me, that I'm just sitting here and criticising everything without actually thinking about the deck, I do, but I'll have access to my cards on friday evening and without feeling them in my hand it's just too hard to concentrate
"Aut vincere aut mori"
The idea of running Postmortem Lunge is an interesting 1, but 4 copies looks excessive. The deck also looks like it does absolute 0 without Vannifar itself. I'm also a bit baffled by the Phantasmal Image? There's no combo to speak of with it, though it can be a way to combo with a 1-drop + 2-drop if you have no ranger left over (though that's not true if the ranger is in the GY, since you can get rallier).
In a nutshell, his deck has no interaction, and only has 1 way to give vannifar haste first time around (postmortem lunge is no good when you first try to combo). As a result, it's VERY unlikely to combo on turn 3, meaning on the draw, you need everyone you face to be slower than turn 5. The deck has almost 0 interaction on its way.
I can't imagine Pardee's list doing much, but I've been wrong before and will be wrong again!!!
I think there's a couple of routes to try out, and everyone is going to have different opinions on the best starting point. Only testing and actually playing the cards will tell us for sure. But, theory-crafting is always fun
What are people thinking for anti-control in the sideboard? I was figuring shalai and maybe prowling serpopard. Could either Thalia work in some amount?
I honestly think my 1st decklist is pretty well set vs control, but I would likely sideboard out a few mana dorks and probably the scryb ranger + spellskite (since 'skite doesn't really matter when you are on a value train). I can't see too many spots where the opponent taps out and doesn't deal with vannifar, so I don't need to commit to combo. I want to bring in more must-answer or sticky threats, but I'd like to avoid the GY. As a result, I think I'll just run some tireless trackers / thragtusks etc. It's also pretty reasonable to tempo out control by end-stepping a deceiver, running out an avalance rider then flicker it with resto. That'll be my aim!
If I'm playing the all-in combo deck, I just want to bring in cards that can protect the combo as best as possible, which is likely spell pierce, plus any value creatures I have laying around.
I'm thinking about the control matchup and as it has been before, voice is probably the best card available, makes bodies, leaves body upon dying, bouncing with Jace or Teferi probably wont help much because there should be already some tokens to do their work. If we make control player to play on sorcery speed instead of instant, we have almost won. How about selfless spirit against sweepers? Thragtusk is also great, decent body, life gain, leaves token even when blinked. Another solid card could be Huntmaster of the fells I played him/her a lot. If we stay out of Chord, Gaddock teeg also comes to mind.
Maybe we could do some list of mostly played archetypes, their goal and pick good/bad cards against them, then the most common among them could be maindeckable, some of them sideboardable and the worst of the worst will get the kick man, it's gonna be hard to forget Jund playstyle for a while. As it seems to me, then
synergistic aggro - humans, spirits - lifegain, board sweep and back in the day ghostly prison and worship + hexproof dude made aggro strategies sick
dredge - permanent graveyard removal, one shot does nothing except for hitting conflagrate, huge lifegain now with chill on the list, and sometimes they can struggle after good land denial with loam in their hand/gy and no green mana to cast it for.
control - early resilient threats or hasty threats
good ol' BGx - resilient threats, protection on creatures
burn - life gain
storm - spell denial, gy removal
that's all that came to my mind for now, especially because my playtesting would involve these decks amongst my friends
So let's start brainstorming...
"Aut vincere aut mori"
edit: what about body double as a 5cmc target? I'm still thinking about reveillark substitutes, because it does nothing when searched for, if I remember it right.
"Aut vincere aut mori"
Body Double copying what? Remember that when it copies a creature its CMC becomes the copied creatures CMC.
Remember, I don't know *****. ...Oh chungus I forgot that the PG-13 rules are enforced.
it was meant instead of Reveillark, to copy anything dead instead of recurring it when reveillark leaves the field
"Aut vincere aut mori"