Hi. I am putting the deck together irl. After reafing through the discussions it seems like there are two possible builds. The 'control route' that plays very little creatures. And the midrange route with creatures. The midrange route plays a lott more like a BGx deck like rock, abzan or jund.
What os unique with both styles of play is that we get to - reload with niv mizzet. Getting a 6/6 and 2 to 4 cards on averadge is quite good. We can also loop it with kolegans command, or glittering wish (in some builds.) Also, the bring to light for silver bullit seems quite good. (Unmoore Ego, Supreme Verdict, Kholigans Command and Primal command mostly.)
Have anybody done any thought to ditching some of the colours. Izzet in particular seems a bit weak.
I am planing on experementing with going midrange. Cut the number of nivs down to 2, keep the 4 bring to light.
Any deck that can play the following cards in the same deck sounds good:
(One possible route is to leave Bring to Light behind and get Niv-Mizzet with Neoform. I do not think this is a good way to go as we would have very few 4 drop in the deck and relly on a '2 card combo'. The list would probably look more like old Birthing Pod lists. As well as Neoform being bad of BBE if you have no other creatures.)
I am sure a very compettetive midrange or controll deck is in there somewhere. Now most GBx decks runs 6 discard spells, so that is probably a good place to start. I am a bit unsure about Tidehollow Sculler. He is usualy best in a deck where you 'trade' cards vs their awnsers until you are left standing. It is like a spellskite for removalspells, and usualy soaked up the removal that was meant for your Dark Confidant. Obvously nothing like that is happening here.
I would like to see some more good creatures outside of BBE and Voice of Resurgence. I am not sure if Voice should be in our list, but in most midrange decks I play it in, it is very good. He and Teferi should give any instant speed deck a run for their money. Can you also imagine going BBE into Teferi. That just sounds sick.
The Boros lifegain cards are quite good. Nahiri is also a real threath once she can get Niv-Mizzet. In fact, the multi coloured removal suite from all the colours is just insane.
Midrange decks die to tron. But Assassin's Throphy into Unmore Ego (or bring to light) can help with that.
I will think about this and try to come up with a good build. Preferably without izzet in the maindeck. Sugestions for more good 'midrange' creatures are welcome.
So I sat down and tinkered around a bit. Suggestions on lands is welcome, but how about this:
It tries to use some of the new snow cards especially Arcum's Astrolabe for mana-fixing and Ice-Fang Coatl with Prismatic Vista to get the basics.
I'm not sure if this manabase is good enough to support a 5C decks though.
Out of the newer cards Wrenn and Six seems like a really good addition to the deck as it can help recycle fetches and consistently hit land drops and also fight against LD which can cripple the deck.
@D90Dennis14 - this was discussed on discord (jiggywiggy is very active there). The Arcum's are amazing, as is the vista. The Ice-fang I felt was average. Nissa has since been dropped. Wreen & 6 is a bomb, and everyone who tests it is very high on it
The more debateable card is Tolsimir. What Tolsimir does is help you "get back" in a game. So if you have 5 mana & bring to light, sometimes you need Tolsimir to stabilise, since Niv will just be 1 blocker. In that spot, it's your only real way back into the game. once back in the game, it can even sometimes start swinging and win with it. I've found it worth a SB slot for sure,
The way you need to construct the manabase to make Astrolabe work just doesn't seem as good as running 4x Pillar and more fetchlands+shocklands imho.
So many basic lands in a 5C deck is just asking to get color-screwed imho and a bit of mana fixing from the the artifacts doesn't seem enough to justify it.
@D90 - Tolsimir is the only 1 that can make 2 bodies AND remove 1 from the opponent, making it almost 3 bodies + 3 life. It's very good at stabilising. There's also a small synergy with Huntmaster, though i haven't had that come up yet. Tolsimir is a higher-costed huntmaster though, which is why i think it belongs in the board. It's great to BTL for it when you're behind, but you won't always want that effect (basically just vs agro).
The TLDR is that Tolsimir is the best at stabilising out of all the options. If you want something more agressive, Siege Rhino fits better but isn't a Niv hit. If you want a Niv hit that's agressive, Obzedat is good there but it is the hardest to actually cast out of all of them. If you are heavier on creatures I imagine Trostani's anthem being ok, but outside of that, I don't see it.
On the manabase, I hate 10 basics, but I think 5-6 is passable, and with fetchlands involved, you can easily get to around 14 lands that "turn on" astrolabe. Astrolabe is a great payoff, it does work extremely well. But you can run both it and pillar, which may well be the sweet spot. I've attached my current list for reference!
Hey all, am putting together a deck for FNM, haven't played magic in a while from what y'all say this deck sounds like a blast.
I'm thinking of running a list that relies on Glittering Wish as a silver bullet tutor. I'd fill the sb with one of cards that are extremely strong in particular matchups. Basically I'm aiming to combine 5c Glittering wish with this deck, as I feel they compliment each other well.
Possible Silver bullets:
New Ashiok
Wheel of sun and moon
Geist of saint traft
Extra supreme verdict (1 MB)
Fracturing gust
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Cindervines
Zealous Persecution
Anathemancer (criminally underrated)
Deafening Clairon
Unmoored Ego (probably running one MB)
Kambal
Despark
Angrath's Rampage
Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
In terms of my multicolored cards, I'm thinking of going the midrange route with inquisitions, thought disruptions, and sin collectors to help pick out my silver bullets, along with value cards like Bloodbraid and k commands. Also gonna run unmoored Ego to benefit off the hand disruption.
Imo, this deck looks at it's most powerful when it plays like a toolbox, so I'm going all in on that route.
Sorry I can't tag cards, typing from phone.
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Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
@TheCelticWombat - the discord for Niv is pretty active, and I can say a lot of these ideas have been testing already, which is great. I've seen as mayn as 3 g-wish being run.
Lavinia, Ego, Deafening Clarion, Kambal, Gust and Verdict are all brilliant bullets. I'd run them even if I didn't run G-wish (which i currently dont).
I used to run Cindervines for small upside vs UW and storm, and as a way to beat blood moon off a single forest. However, since moving to the snow manabase, it's a lot less necessary and i've cut it. It's a close 1 though.
New Ashiok is sweet, but i've found the 3-mana walker a little slow to tutor up vs hogaak (going T2 Wish T3 Ashiok is just not quick enough, especially on the draw). It has uses elsewhere and is probably better when sided in.
Wheel of Sun & Moon is just a worse ashiok, dont run it!
Sigarda has seen a little play from some guys, though i think you're better with just another Niv at that point.
Dreadbore is generally better than Angrath's Rampage. You want to tag cards like Thought Knot that Helix misses, and Angrath can sometimes run into matter reshapers etc poorly.
Sounds like you have a good plan. Don't worry about running the odd "non-wish" target though. I'm on 4 Leyline of the Void and they're a necesary evil this week!
I may as well note that the latest MTGO lists with results have often used Wrenn and Six, Arcum's Astrolabe, or both. Guess they need the colour fixing (in the case of Astrolabe, enough to drop Niv-Mizzet targets).
Fair enough, but Wrenn and Six also helps the color fixing. A UG fetch can grab say WU then when you refused it can grab GB. You are dead on in most your comments. Just tweaking that last one.
Guys I just recorded 5 matches with a budget list for youtube. Check out my website and follow the links to find stuff!! Hopefully will see some of you on a stream sometime https://budgetmodernmagic.com/
Modern: G Stompy G UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR UWB Spirits UWB UWB Brain Control UWB WUB Esper Reveillark WUB EDH: WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
What os unique with both styles of play is that we get to - reload with niv mizzet. Getting a 6/6 and 2 to 4 cards on averadge is quite good. We can also loop it with kolegans command, or glittering wish (in some builds.) Also, the bring to light for silver bullit seems quite good. (Unmoore Ego, Supreme Verdict, Kholigans Command and Primal command mostly.)
Have anybody done any thought to ditching some of the colours. Izzet in particular seems a bit weak.
I am planing on experementing with going midrange. Cut the number of nivs down to 2, keep the 4 bring to light.
Any deck that can play the following cards in the same deck sounds good:
Good Creatures:
Discard Spells:
Awnsers:
Good Tempor Card/Anoying:
Combo killer:
Unmoored ego
Universal Tutors:
Draw Spells:
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
(One possible route is to leave Bring to Light behind and get Niv-Mizzet with Neoform. I do not think this is a good way to go as we would have very few 4 drop in the deck and relly on a '2 card combo'. The list would probably look more like old Birthing Pod lists. As well as Neoform being bad of BBE if you have no other creatures.)
I am sure a very compettetive midrange or controll deck is in there somewhere. Now most GBx decks runs 6 discard spells, so that is probably a good place to start. I am a bit unsure about Tidehollow Sculler. He is usualy best in a deck where you 'trade' cards vs their awnsers until you are left standing. It is like a spellskite for removalspells, and usualy soaked up the removal that was meant for your Dark Confidant. Obvously nothing like that is happening here.
I would like to see some more good creatures outside of BBE and Voice of Resurgence. I am not sure if Voice should be in our list, but in most midrange decks I play it in, it is very good. He and Teferi should give any instant speed deck a run for their money. Can you also imagine going BBE into Teferi. That just sounds sick.
The Boros lifegain cards are quite good. Nahiri is also a real threath once she can get Niv-Mizzet. In fact, the multi coloured removal suite from all the colours is just insane.
Midrange decks die to tron. But Assassin's Throphy into Unmore Ego (or bring to light) can help with that.
I will think about this and try to come up with a good build. Preferably without izzet in the maindeck. Sugestions for more good 'midrange' creatures are welcome.
So I sat down and tinkered around a bit. Suggestions on lands is welcome, but how about this:
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Meddling Mage
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Niv-Mizzet Reborn
3 Thoughtseize
2 Thought Erasure
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Lightning Helix
2 Kaya's Guile
1 Deafening Clarion
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Unmoored ego
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
24 Lands
Edit: I am a silly goose, the original list was not 60 cards.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-five-colors-niv-mizzet
It tries to use some of the new snow cards especially Arcum's Astrolabe for mana-fixing and Ice-Fang Coatl with Prismatic Vista to get the basics.
I'm not sure if this manabase is good enough to support a 5C decks though.
Tolsimir seems rather weak for a 5-mana creature.
Nissa, Steward of Elements doesn't seem like a good fit for the deck as well.
Out of the newer cards Wrenn and Six seems like a really good addition to the deck as it can help recycle fetches and consistently hit land drops and also fight against LD which can cripple the deck.
The more debateable card is Tolsimir. What Tolsimir does is help you "get back" in a game. So if you have 5 mana & bring to light, sometimes you need Tolsimir to stabilise, since Niv will just be 1 blocker. In that spot, it's your only real way back into the game. once back in the game, it can even sometimes start swinging and win with it. I've found it worth a SB slot for sure,
So many basic lands in a 5C deck is just asking to get color-screwed imho and a bit of mana fixing from the the artifacts doesn't seem enough to justify it.
In the Tolsimir slot you might as well run Regisaur Alpha (which at least doesn't die to Bolt) but it doesn't seem that great either.
Both of them just seem like overcosted versions of Huntmaster of the Fells to me which is a pretty good stabilization card.
Other creatures that can provide a reasonable body and gain life can be: Obzedat, Ghost Council, Trostani Discordant and Loxodon Hierarch/Siege Rhino.
The TLDR is that Tolsimir is the best at stabilising out of all the options. If you want something more agressive, Siege Rhino fits better but isn't a Niv hit. If you want a Niv hit that's agressive, Obzedat is good there but it is the hardest to actually cast out of all of them. If you are heavier on creatures I imagine Trostani's anthem being ok, but outside of that, I don't see it.
On the manabase, I hate 10 basics, but I think 5-6 is passable, and with fetchlands involved, you can easily get to around 14 lands that "turn on" astrolabe. Astrolabe is a great payoff, it does work extremely well. But you can run both it and pillar, which may well be the sweet spot. I've attached my current list for reference!
I'm thinking of running a list that relies on Glittering Wish as a silver bullet tutor. I'd fill the sb with one of cards that are extremely strong in particular matchups. Basically I'm aiming to combine 5c Glittering wish with this deck, as I feel they compliment each other well.
Possible Silver bullets:
New Ashiok
Wheel of sun and moon
Geist of saint traft
Extra supreme verdict (1 MB)
Fracturing gust
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Cindervines
Zealous Persecution
Anathemancer (criminally underrated)
Deafening Clairon
Unmoored Ego (probably running one MB)
Kambal
Despark
Angrath's Rampage
Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
In terms of my multicolored cards, I'm thinking of going the midrange route with inquisitions, thought disruptions, and sin collectors to help pick out my silver bullets, along with value cards like Bloodbraid and k commands. Also gonna run unmoored Ego to benefit off the hand disruption.
Imo, this deck looks at it's most powerful when it plays like a toolbox, so I'm going all in on that route.
Sorry I can't tag cards, typing from phone.
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
Lavinia, Ego, Deafening Clarion, Kambal, Gust and Verdict are all brilliant bullets. I'd run them even if I didn't run G-wish (which i currently dont).
I used to run Cindervines for small upside vs UW and storm, and as a way to beat blood moon off a single forest. However, since moving to the snow manabase, it's a lot less necessary and i've cut it. It's a close 1 though.
New Ashiok is sweet, but i've found the 3-mana walker a little slow to tutor up vs hogaak (going T2 Wish T3 Ashiok is just not quick enough, especially on the draw). It has uses elsewhere and is probably better when sided in.
Wheel of Sun & Moon is just a worse ashiok, dont run it!
Sigarda has seen a little play from some guys, though i think you're better with just another Niv at that point.
Dreadbore is generally better than Angrath's Rampage. You want to tag cards like Thought Knot that Helix misses, and Angrath can sometimes run into matter reshapers etc poorly.
Sounds like you have a good plan. Don't worry about running the odd "non-wish" target though. I'm on 4 Leyline of the Void and they're a necesary evil this week!
https://budgetmodernmagic.com/
G Stompy G
UR Izzet Prowess/Delver UR
UWB Spirits UWB
UWB Brain Control UWBWUB Esper Reveillark WUB
EDH:
WUBRG Horde of Notions WUBRG
W Nine-and-a-Half TailsW
WGUR Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis WGUR
1 Breeding Pool
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Pillar of the Paruns
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Kess, Dissident Mage
3 Niv-Mizzet Reborn
1 Tolsimir, Friend to Wolves
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
3 Wrenn and Six
3 Bring to Light
1 Dreadbore
2 Safewright Quest
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Thought Erasure
1 Unmoored Ego
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Izzet Charm
2 Kaya's Guile
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Helix
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Unmoored Ego
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Deafening Clarion
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Hostage Taker
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Weather the Storm
There's a lot of links to useful information for the deck, and it is expanding as I have time to work on it.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/598381-kiki-chord-kiki-company
Bring to Niv
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/814060-bring-to-niv-the-golden-deck
Legacy - Lands
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/535484-primer-lands