Basically, I'm trying to use the filtering ability of Brutality/Jace, combined with a higher than normal curve to add a bit more power to the deck so there's more 3's and 4's than you typically see. One theory I want to test is that in a build without many counters, Jace VP is actually better since it can pitch cards when the curve in your hand is too high, and it can smooth out having too many/too few lands.
Monastery Siege is another one that seems interesting along these lines. Both modes can be useful, especially with the super low curves and low land counts people are running these days.
If possible I would like some advice as to where to take this into UB. As I said, I'd like to keep the shenanigans preserved to some degree, but I understand if it ends up suffering some. From my moderate amount of research, it looks like BB, discard, and better removal are all things to acquire, as well as the obvious lands. My budget is somewhat tight though, so some sort of priority list with temporary budget options would be fantastic. Theoretically lands would be the first thing, but I want to be able to actually play with the cards while I'm assembling the deck. I'm currently looking at Pushes and IoKs, potentially Murderous Cut, some number of BBs with Secluded Glen and Choked Estuaries as budget lands. Suggestions as to where to make cuts would be appreciated as well--I have a rough idea, but guidance would still be nice.
In rough order of priority/budget:
3-4 Bitterblossoms are indispensible - they are your clock, they preserve card advantage and let you hold up answers, and they make SSS and MB Clique into reliable answers.
3-4 Fatal Push are absolutely top notch; (I also use one Go for the Throat, and one Murderous Cut, which are cheap, and worth having)
2-4 Inquisitions are relatively cheap right now, though some more recent lists forego hand disruption in favor of card draw, so less essential.
Even if you don't have shocks, fetch lands turn on revolt and help fix mana.
Creeping Tar Pit wins games.
If possible I would like some advice as to where to take this into UB. As I said, I'd like to keep the shenanigans preserved to some degree, but I understand if it ends up suffering some. From my moderate amount of research, it looks like BB, discard, and better removal are all things to acquire, as well as the obvious lands. My budget is somewhat tight though, so some sort of priority list with temporary budget options would be fantastic. Theoretically lands would be the first thing, but I want to be able to actually play with the cards while I'm assembling the deck. I'm currently looking at Pushes and IoKs, potentially Murderous Cut, some number of BBs with Secluded Glen and Choked Estuaries as budget lands. Suggestions as to where to make cuts would be appreciated as well--I have a rough idea, but guidance would still be nice.
In rough order of priority/budget:
3-4 Bitterblossoms are indispensible - they are your clock, they preserve card advantage and let you hold up answers, and they make SSS and MB Clique into reliable answers.
3-4 Fatal Push are absolutely top notch; (I also use one Go for the Throat, and one Murderous Cut, which are cheap, and worth having)
2-4 Inquisitions are relatively cheap right now, though some more recent lists forego hand disruption in favor of card draw, so less essential.
Even if you don't have shocks, fetch lands turn on revolt and help fix mana.
Creeping Tar Pit wins games.
A budget substitute for tar pit would be faerie conclave; keep in mind, tar pit is CLEARLY a better card. I always recommend spending money on the land base (fetches and shocks), as they can be used in ANY deck, and not just faeries. Not sure if anyone plays river of tears anymore, but I would not spend money on that particular land if it was on your list. Personally I like vendilion clique, but other than being a faeries, I would not say it is better than snapcaster mage, which is at a comparable price; for those that run snappy's in their builds that is.
Thanks for the suggestions. More or less what I figured, but still nice to have an opinion. I feel more drawn to the card draw route, but I'm somewhat undecided. Thoughts on which is better?
@BurningEffigy
Thanks for the help. I'm currently running faerie conclave, and yeah tar pits looks much better. Why no river of tears? It seems decent for main phase discard and bitterblossom, even if it does leave you stranded for fatal push. I like the idea of snappy, but unless you've got a cheaper source TCGPlayer has about a $10 difference between it and VClique.
Thanks for the help. I'm currently running faerie conclave, and yeah tar pits looks much better. Why no river of tears? It seems decent for main phase discard and bitterblossom, even if it does leave you stranded for fatal push. I like the idea of snappy, but unless you've got a cheaper source TCGPlayer has about a $10 difference between it and VClique.
The one advantage Conclave has is that like Mutavault it increases your faerie count for Spellstutter Sprite.
On the topic of River of Tears. I used it for a long time when I was playing on a budget. The deck is actually quite playable with them, but it will definitely cause headaches often and force you to sequence differently. I say save the Delta's and Tar Pits for last, go for stuff TheBarbaron mentioned first, they're essential!
My previous list was Mono U and didn't have Faerie Miscreant. I played Pestermite in that spot. I wanted to try Miscreant for better tempo play with turn 2 Spellstutter Sprite. I haven't been impressed with Miscreant though. It can occasionally helped but more often than not, it just got bolted.
I tried Ancestral Vision in the Serum Visions spot too but Serum is just better in this type of deck in my opinion. Id rather have better quality cards opposed to just 3 random cards that may or may not impact the game.
I was very happy with this list though over the U/B list. I didn't feel like I was hemorrhaging life points and I was able to play a little more loosely with my life total. It made a world of difference for me. I always felt under the gun but was always able to tempo my opponent out eventually. I know a lot of people will argue with 3 Vendilion Clique in the main too but outside of Cryptic Command (we can all agree is a Faerie card even though it doesnt say it on the card) Vendilion Clique was always the best Faerie. Having multiple always felt good because the first one usually got killed and the second one was just pure value.
I also really like Scion of Oona. This card is an all star! it either burns a removal spell out of their hand and protects a creature or it becomes a removal rod. It almost never sticks. But when it does, the games end quickly, especially if you have multiples.
Quickling can either be a really insane card or can lead to you getting blown out pretty hard. He does some pretty interesting things with Spellstutter Sprites or Snapcaster Mages or some relaly cool things with Mistbind Cliques. There was a game I got to play and Quickling basically won me the game with all of his shenanigans. Play Mistbind -> Champion Spellstutter -> tap opponents lands. Smack for 4 the next turn and pass. Opponent untaps confidently and plays a spell -> play Quickling -> return Mistbind -> counter with Spellstutter. the game ended in 2 turns while my opponent failed to do much of anything.
On the other hand though, if you're behind, Quickling is really bad. That's the reason I only play one now. I like him but I'm not in like with him. he does some pretty cool stuff but sometimes it's just too cute.
Hope you guys enjoyed. Let me know if you have any questions. Also let me know if i need to remove this list from this thread.
I always liked quickling, but it never worked in my control faeries build. The other fun thing it does with mistbind clique is, if you have 1 in play and 1 in hand, you champion a quickling on opponents upkeep with mistbind and tap the opponent out. Next turn you attack, then play a quickling to return mistbind AND a quickling (the championed quickling has an ETB effect when mistbind leaves the battlefield). Rinse and repeat for the lock.
Thanks for the suggestions. More or less what I figured, but still nice to have an opinion. I feel more drawn to the card draw route, but I'm somewhat undecided. Thoughts on which is better?
@BurningEffigy
Thanks for the help. I'm currently running faerie conclave, and yeah tar pits looks much better. Why no river of tears? It seems decent for main phase discard and bitterblossom, even if it does leave you stranded for fatal push. I like the idea of snappy, but unless you've got a cheaper source TCGPlayer has about a $10 difference between it and VClique.
Just the price for river of tears ($9), I wouldn't want to pay the money for a temporary card. Also the fact that it doesn't "power up" fatal push as @Sumthang mentioned. You're right about the snappy vs clique price... I preordered my snaps when MM17 spoiled them, and haven't checked the price since.
Not sure what your experience has been with him, but a chump block would be a big tempo loss, as you'd lose one of your creatures (by sacrificing it), AND pay 2 mana. Tasigur at least offers card advantage and can attack/block as normal. I can see the synergy with bitterblossom, with the whole lose 1 lie/gain 1 life, but I don't think you're actually accomplishing anything by tying up mana, and killing a creature. BB is a clock on its own if left to its own devices.
I've done a little testing with Bonus and so far you would be correct with the comparison to Tasigurs. At times Bontu is wonky. But not all the time, and against bad match ups like burn and Bant Eldrazi it's been a house when paired with bitterblossom. But like I said with very limited testing with Bontu.
I think there's some major differences between the mono-U and U/B builds in that they maintain a different focus. My build is mono U, utilizing the slots usually given to snaps or cryptics ( budget reasons) in favor of blink in Cloudstone Curios and freeing mana with Vial. Mistbinds and Vendillion with an activated Thassa close my games. The black in my base is solely there for push and 2 dismembers as i don't run BB.( I see the appeal though in my list, bouncing it out of play as needed to protect you life total). I feel like running discard is very nearly its own archetype with the bonus of hand info. But i think a build with enough blinking of Clique does the same thing.
Hello everyone, I'd like to discuss the future potential of UB Faeries going forward, as I think it's currently well-positioned (I even wrote an article saying so). The first thing I was wondering was how coming up with a consensus list was going - I saw lists with pretty significant differences between them in my research, and I do think a more settled deck would probably put up more consistent results. Secondly, I was puzzled to see that Snapcaster Mage was being favored over Scion of Oona - doesn't having a faster clock that can blow out potential disruption benefit you benefit you more than yet another value engine when you already have Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom? Thanks for any insight!
I think Snapcaster is a logical choice, it's the best blue card in Modern and it's card quality is just flat out high. That said, I personally would prefer a list without Snapcasters. When I see Snapcaster and Tasigur in UB Fae lists, I think 'I'd rather play Grixis Delver'. I think UB Fae's synergies, under the right conditions, should outperform raw quality cards like Snapcaster. I've very much a fan of the sudden clock a Scion can conjure with some other Fae in play, but we have to accept that it's an awful creature by itself.
That said, most tournament finishes recently all run ~2 Snapcasters and 0 Scions.
Another question to ask is: Ancestral Vision, yes or no? The few lists we've seen place well vary on that. There's either Ancestral Vision, Serum Visions, or neither.
I've faced it as an opponent and thought it was effective - a deck looking to 1-for-1 as much as current builds of Faeries do needs sources of card advantage in order to pull ahead, and Ancestral Vision does that better than any card I can think of (incidentally, the fact that it can't be flashed back is part of why I'm somewhat down on Snappy). Going T1 Vision into T2 Blossom and then reacting to everything sounds like a dream start.
Hello everyone, I'd like to discuss the future potential of UB Faeries going forward, as I think it's currently well-positioned (I even wrote an article saying so). The first thing I was wondering was how coming up with a consensus list was going - I saw lists with pretty significant differences between them in my research, and I do think a more settled deck would probably put up more consistent results. Secondly, I was puzzled to see that Snapcaster Mage was being favored over Scion of Oona - doesn't having a faster clock that can blow out potential disruption benefit you benefit you more than yet another value engine when you already have Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom? Thanks for any insight!
Hey, Faeries is not like Merfolk. Merfolk is a true aggro tribe, Elves is a true combo tribe and Faeries is the aggro-control tribe. It's pure aggro strategies aren't that good...(compare Scion of Oona with Lord of Atlantis). I think the Worcester lists are a nice start. They play hand disruption in the main, that is probably more useful for the aggro matchups. AV in the side. The Worcester lists share many cards and approaches to the game. But there isnt really a right or wrong. If Faeries would have been a true Tier 2 deck (for starters), a more settled list would naturally appear.
Hello everyone, I'd like to discuss the future potential of UB Faeries going forward, as I think it's currently well-positioned (I even wrote an article saying so). The first thing I was wondering was how coming up with a consensus list was going - I saw lists with pretty significant differences between them in my research, and I do think a more settled deck would probably put up more consistent results. Secondly, I was puzzled to see that Snapcaster Mage was being favored over Scion of Oona - doesn't having a faster clock that can blow out potential disruption benefit you benefit you more than yet another value engine when you already have Ancestral Vision and Bitterblossom? Thanks for any insight!
1. In general consensus lists only show up when a given list puts up a lot of results, and for a long time that hasn't ben the case with Faeries. That being said, one of the things that this board has discovered about Faeries lists is how customizable it is. I think a lot of posters here have begun to see that as a feature, not a bug, of this particular archetype, since you can build the deck to support the game plan that you enact. To that end, here's what I've observed to be the core of the consistently performing (and "canonical") lists
That's it. The other 30 slots change pretty radically depending on what specific gameplan people are trying to enact. There are some other consistencies that persist across multiple lists (3-5 islands, 1-2 Watery grave, 2-3 snapcaster mage, and 1 murderous cut for example) but you can alos find successful lists that slay those sacred cows and run radically different configurations (e.g. 3 mistbind, no mistbind, no snaps, 3 liliana of the veil, no discard, 8 discard, ancestral vision, smuggler's copter, tasigur, spell snare, mana leak, serum visions). In general, most lists play about 12 creatures, about 25 lands, and about 23 spells (including BB), but again, there's a lot of flex in those numbers.
From what I've seen, the lists that are putting up results are the ones that have the most experienced pilots, where the deck is tuned to suit the pilot's playstyle, and the pilot knows how to position in the matchups.
2. About Scion vs snapcaster: Scion is better in spots where we're already winning (active BB, trying to resolve mistbind, etc.) where snapcaster is still powerful if we are more even or behind. Buying back a cryptic to prevent a lethal swing when we can burst with ~5-10 power on the way back (Vendilion, snap, and tar pit make 8, and adding a mutavault makes 10) can steal a lot of games and is often the sort of situation you end up in if you don't have BB active and need to race. Other times the matchup is about casting a bunch of removal and snapcaster is a 2-power blocker with a fatal push attached while scion would only be a 1-power blocker.
Scion can shave a turn off of you clock by being an anthem for your tokens, but having a bunch of tokens in play usually means you're winning anyways, and it's rare that it's actually beneficial to blank a removal spell that's pointed at a token in those spots. I think most people would rather just have more ways to interact at that point.
I'm thinking more of it as a way to blank removal for the Bitterblossom itself. Abrupt Decay is still a thing, after all, and Scion would be your only answer to it.
While Snappy is an absolutely bonkers card, I question if it is really as effective in the U/B build as advertised. I don't see builds working without Scion. Whether mono or u/b, with such tiny creatures, Scion is the most effective "race" card we have. I mean, the shroud that Scions provide often blanks a huge amount of removal, making your tempo plays more powerful by making cards literally dead in hand. I also believe that V. Clique and Mistbind are the best two finishers in the deck. Locking an opponent's mana for a turn is backbreaking, more so if you can follow it up with things like V.Clique. And that gameplan is effective vs. almost any deck. Unless Im missing something that can play and win without lands
I think the ideal list is closer to discard lists ive seen here with Mistbind to further crush the opponent's gameplan. It most effectively disrupts while allowing us to build a lethal board.
I'm thinking more of it as a way to blank removal for the Bitterblossom itself. Abrupt Decay is still a thing, after all, and Scion would be your only answer to it.
That's not exactly true. Against all the decks that play AD "(DSJund, Jund, Abzan, Rock) we would like to land a T2 Bitterblossom because it is the best way to grind them out.
To safely land it we have 5-6 discard cards for T1.
We never want to wait until T5 to land BB with scion back up because we have cryptics/Mistbinds for those turns and an active BB is key to make them work.
Additionally, we already have a way to blank an AD by bouncing our BB with CC.
Imho, AD is one of these cases where I prefer to go with the plan, if they have it, they have it. These decks run 0-2 ADs atm, rarely a 3rd in the SB. That gives them slim chances to draw it, especially if we can rip one with discard T1. If they top deck it T2/3, that means they don't do anything else that turn and I can safely land a V. Clique to take their next removal/goyf.
Scion is not worth the slot for such a slim case and is not beneficial for the overall aggro-control strategy. That's why people have stopped playing with it.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Secluded Glen
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Island
2 Mutavault
1 Faerie Conclave
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
Creatures 13
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Mistbind Clique
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Sower of Temptation
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fatal Push
4 Collective Brutality
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cryptic Command
1 Far // Away
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Spellskite
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Monastery Siege
1 Dispel
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil
Basically, I'm trying to use the filtering ability of Brutality/Jace, combined with a higher than normal curve to add a bit more power to the deck so there's more 3's and 4's than you typically see. One theory I want to test is that in a build without many counters, Jace VP is actually better since it can pitch cards when the curve in your hand is too high, and it can smooth out having too many/too few lands.
Monastery Siege is another one that seems interesting along these lines. Both modes can be useful, especially with the super low curves and low land counts people are running these days.
In rough order of priority/budget:
3-4 Bitterblossoms are indispensible - they are your clock, they preserve card advantage and let you hold up answers, and they make SSS and MB Clique into reliable answers.
3-4 Fatal Push are absolutely top notch; (I also use one Go for the Throat, and one Murderous Cut, which are cheap, and worth having)
2-4 Inquisitions are relatively cheap right now, though some more recent lists forego hand disruption in favor of card draw, so less essential.
Even if you don't have shocks, fetch lands turn on revolt and help fix mana.
Creeping Tar Pit wins games.
A budget substitute for tar pit would be faerie conclave; keep in mind, tar pit is CLEARLY a better card. I always recommend spending money on the land base (fetches and shocks), as they can be used in ANY deck, and not just faeries. Not sure if anyone plays river of tears anymore, but I would not spend money on that particular land if it was on your list. Personally I like vendilion clique, but other than being a faeries, I would not say it is better than snapcaster mage, which is at a comparable price; for those that run snappy's in their builds that is.
Thanks for the suggestions. More or less what I figured, but still nice to have an opinion. I feel more drawn to the card draw route, but I'm somewhat undecided. Thoughts on which is better?
@BurningEffigy
Thanks for the help. I'm currently running faerie conclave, and yeah tar pits looks much better. Why no river of tears? It seems decent for main phase discard and bitterblossom, even if it does leave you stranded for fatal push. I like the idea of snappy, but unless you've got a cheaper source TCGPlayer has about a $10 difference between it and VClique.
The one advantage Conclave has is that like Mutavault it increases your faerie count for Spellstutter Sprite.
I always liked quickling, but it never worked in my control faeries build. The other fun thing it does with mistbind clique is, if you have 1 in play and 1 in hand, you champion a quickling on opponents upkeep with mistbind and tap the opponent out. Next turn you attack, then play a quickling to return mistbind AND a quickling (the championed quickling has an ETB effect when mistbind leaves the battlefield). Rinse and repeat for the lock.
Just the price for river of tears ($9), I wouldn't want to pay the money for a temporary card. Also the fact that it doesn't "power up" fatal push as @Sumthang mentioned. You're right about the snappy vs clique price... I preordered my snaps when MM17 spoiled them, and haven't checked the price since.
Not sure what your experience has been with him, but a chump block would be a big tempo loss, as you'd lose one of your creatures (by sacrificing it), AND pay 2 mana. Tasigur at least offers card advantage and can attack/block as normal. I can see the synergy with bitterblossom, with the whole lose 1 lie/gain 1 life, but I don't think you're actually accomplishing anything by tying up mana, and killing a creature. BB is a clock on its own if left to its own devices.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
That said, most tournament finishes recently all run ~2 Snapcasters and 0 Scions.
Another question to ask is: Ancestral Vision, yes or no? The few lists we've seen place well vary on that. There's either Ancestral Vision, Serum Visions, or neither.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Hey, Faeries is not like Merfolk. Merfolk is a true aggro tribe, Elves is a true combo tribe and Faeries is the aggro-control tribe. It's pure aggro strategies aren't that good...(compare Scion of Oona with Lord of Atlantis). I think the Worcester lists are a nice start. They play hand disruption in the main, that is probably more useful for the aggro matchups. AV in the side. The Worcester lists share many cards and approaches to the game. But there isnt really a right or wrong. If Faeries would have been a true Tier 2 deck (for starters), a more settled list would naturally appear.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
56781. In general consensus lists only show up when a given list puts up a lot of results, and for a long time that hasn't ben the case with Faeries. That being said, one of the things that this board has discovered about Faeries lists is how customizable it is. I think a lot of posters here have begun to see that as a feature, not a bug, of this particular archetype, since you can build the deck to support the game plan that you enact. To that end, here's what I've observed to be the core of the consistently performing (and "canonical") lists
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Cryptic Command
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
That's it. The other 30 slots change pretty radically depending on what specific gameplan people are trying to enact. There are some other consistencies that persist across multiple lists (3-5 islands, 1-2 Watery grave, 2-3 snapcaster mage, and 1 murderous cut for example) but you can alos find successful lists that slay those sacred cows and run radically different configurations (e.g. 3 mistbind, no mistbind, no snaps, 3 liliana of the veil, no discard, 8 discard, ancestral vision, smuggler's copter, tasigur, spell snare, mana leak, serum visions). In general, most lists play about 12 creatures, about 25 lands, and about 23 spells (including BB), but again, there's a lot of flex in those numbers.
From what I've seen, the lists that are putting up results are the ones that have the most experienced pilots, where the deck is tuned to suit the pilot's playstyle, and the pilot knows how to position in the matchups.
2. About Scion vs snapcaster: Scion is better in spots where we're already winning (active BB, trying to resolve mistbind, etc.) where snapcaster is still powerful if we are more even or behind. Buying back a cryptic to prevent a lethal swing when we can burst with ~5-10 power on the way back (Vendilion, snap, and tar pit make 8, and adding a mutavault makes 10) can steal a lot of games and is often the sort of situation you end up in if you don't have BB active and need to race. Other times the matchup is about casting a bunch of removal and snapcaster is a 2-power blocker with a fatal push attached while scion would only be a 1-power blocker.
Scion can shave a turn off of you clock by being an anthem for your tokens, but having a bunch of tokens in play usually means you're winning anyways, and it's rare that it's actually beneficial to blank a removal spell that's pointed at a token in those spots. I think most people would rather just have more ways to interact at that point.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I think the ideal list is closer to discard lists ive seen here with Mistbind to further crush the opponent's gameplan. It most effectively disrupts while allowing us to build a lethal board.
To safely land it we have 5-6 discard cards for T1.
We never want to wait until T5 to land BB with scion back up because we have cryptics/Mistbinds for those turns and an active BB is key to make them work.
Additionally, we already have a way to blank an AD by bouncing our BB with CC.
Imho, AD is one of these cases where I prefer to go with the plan, if they have it, they have it. These decks run 0-2 ADs atm, rarely a 3rd in the SB. That gives them slim chances to draw it, especially if we can rip one with discard T1. If they top deck it T2/3, that means they don't do anything else that turn and I can safely land a V. Clique to take their next removal/goyf.
Scion is not worth the slot for such a slim case and is not beneficial for the overall aggro-control strategy. That's why people have stopped playing with it.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past