So I played last night at our local Thursday Modern night. I think we were pushing 30 which, considering at least 15 regulars were on their way to GP "Boston", was pretty good.
So I decided to take a departure from the build I've been running for a while and decided to play Michael Jacob's version from his article. Out went the Geists, a Craterhoof, a Primal Command, and a Wistful Selkie, in went 2 Abundant Growths, 2 Birds of Paradise, a Joraga Treespeaker, an Eternal Witness, and an extra land.
My notes aren't great so I'm going off of memory here.
R1 - Mono Green Devotion
Yep, I played the mirror match.
G1 - He didn't get much going with a bunch of Elvish Visionaries coming into play. I built up my board with Arbor Elves, Wistful Selkies, and a Garruk. I won with Garruk's utimate and a Kessig Wolf Run.
G2 - I think I mulled to 5, couldn't get going fast enough and he won with Garruk, Elves, and Elvish Archdruid (I think). I did get to Genesis Wave for six, but had an absolutely horrible Wave, hitting Wave and Command, 2 lands, a Sprawl, and something else.
G3 - I managed to keep him off of mana with Primal Command and Ghost Quarter, looping them with Witness. I then Titan'd for Kessig and Nykthos and that was all she wrote
The list that this guy was running was very similar to CurdBros' list, with Coiling Oracle, Archruid, and Elves, running Chord of Calling AND Genesis Wave.
R2 - UWR
G1 was a close one and it came down, again, to a poor Genesis Wave. G2 wasn't even close
R3 - UWR (again)
This time it was the Delver version. G1 he flipped 2 Delvers quickly while I stumbled on mana. G2, I was able to build board presence and won with Garruk's ultimate. G3, he flipped an early Delver that I couldn't remove in time.
R4 - GB Rock
While UWR is a bad matchup, this is supposed to be a good one; typically I beat up on Pod and Jund-esque decks. He also lost to my R1 opponent in his previous round, so I was feeling good.
G1 was closer than it should have been, given I hit no Waves or Commands. G2, I kept a really sketchy hand that had a HUGE upside. I had Forest, Ghost Quarter, Treespeaker, Titan, Titan, Garruk, something. If the Treespeaker lives, it's a great hand. Otherwise, it blows. So, turn 2, I level the Treespeaker, he Dismembers it, and that was pretty much all she wrote.
I now remember why I don't like Treespeaker, as he acts as a Time Walk for my opponent most of the time. I think I was able to use him once, but the rest of the time he really blew.
Abundant Growth was okay, but didn't impress. I think I would have preferred the extra Selkie, purely for the devotion, and the extra Primal Command.
Birds didn't come up enough for me to comment on.
I did feel the loss of the Geists, especially against UWR. It's resiliency in the face of bolts, Electrolyze, etc., is really useful. It's also a great card against Rock decks.
Anyways, I haven't decided what to do next week. I'm leaning towards the build I'm more comfortable with, but I might be adventurous and try something different.
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i don't personally like avalanche rider in the above mentioned deck because of the echo cost. it also don't help us build board presence. if i am going the land destruction mid range route, i will rather go with acidic slime,plow under and primal command. i will do without genesis waveand play chord of calling to ensure consistency in disruption and tutor for solution. the problem with this build is it is weak against counterspell heavy deck like twin and scapeshift. sideboarding a dosan the falling leaf to be chord out would be an idea.
i have tried the elf version before, it is very fast but lose badly to removal and sweeper. therefore very weak against UWR. joraga warcaller might help out and also serve as a win con as pyroclasm,anger of the god hurt us badly.
I completely agree on Treespeaker...I never truly understood while Jacob's added it (I read the article and his reasoning, but still didn't like it).
I am currently testing against Rock as well (as it is becoming exceedingly popular) and will also test against the "Mirror" (Micheal Jacob's version that is) tonight as well. I'll try to keep detailed notes as well (thus far I've kept minor notes, but I will make sure to write out much more in my next several match ups!
I'm surprised you had any trouble with general removal with an Elf build. One-for-one removal is traditionally terrible against us. In most cases they waste one card killing a card that already drew us a card (basically a 1-for-2). Decks that run a lot of 1-for-1 removal loose rather quickly (things like Path, Bolt, Dismember, Slaughter Pact, Abrupt Decay, etc. are not great against us). Electrolyze, however, (if done before an Archdruid) can be very good against us in the early game. You are right, however, that sweepers can be bad if we start slow. Having said this, I don't know what decks you played against or how much you tested the deck; but please feel free to PM me with your findings (as I'd love additional testing info and would greatly appreciate it). I will, however, provide my discussion on sweepers (as it pertains to the Elf Version of Green Devotion) below:
The only real sweepers in the current Meta (per MTGTop8) are Anger of the Gods and Pyroclasm (in some Tron builds), Bile Blight (in some Rock Bulds) and Supreme Verdict (in B/W Tron/Gift builds). Of these, approximately 75%+ of these sweepers are in boards in amounts of 1-2 of's. The "meta" decks that run these cards are (for the most part) 1. UWR control, (2) G/R Tron, and (3) Scapeshift (in the red-heavy versions), and (4) Gift Tron (with of Rock builds running Bile Blight):
1. UWR Control is one of our toughest match-ups. We do have to side in a lot against them and convert our build to more of a "beat down" mode where we punish their counters and their mana. Cavern of Souls is CRAZY good here; but they are definitely favored game one. Even if they side in two Anger of the Gods, however, we become very hard to beat with the Caverns, Summoning Trap, Choke/Boil, and Spellskite. This is the only deck we have a general "transformation" for. Because it's one of our worst match-ups; it is the one with the most dedicated sideboard hate. This helps tremendously in games 2 and 3 to put us in the favorable position.
2. G/R Tron and U/W Tron are typically pretty darn good match-ups for us (I'd say we are a good favorite in most cases to start). We are just that much faster than them and a Wurmcoil can only gain 6 life at most and Karn can only remove one permanent. I'll test a little more against them to see if I was missing something in my prior testing sessions vs. them.
3. Rock decks (as anyone who plays Green Devotion knows) are match-ups that are heavily in our favor. Most of their removal is 1-for-1; and we simply role over them. The same is true of Pod....they are just easy match-ups.
4. Scapeshift is very "style" dependent. Those versions that are more "control" oriented tend to be tougher (and we have to move into slightly more "control" board; but they also slow the game down and allow us to cast Elderscale Wurm and/or Magus of the Moon (both of which make it very difficult to win for them).
Oddly enough, one of my favorite cards against sweepers coming in from the board is Ezuri. His Regeneration ability can make their removal far less effective. This, of course is dependent on my drawing him early enough and/or Chording for him (which actually occurs more often than you'd think as most decks only run 1-2 sweepers). This, however, is a "treat" and is not something I rely on as a strategy directly against sweepers (although I always keep my mind open to it).
As I've discussed in the past, this deck generally doesn't "react" to things (and is more proactive). Rather than working to hold on to a card that can prevent a sweeper; we generally just play right through it. For them to sweep our creatures; that means they already resolved. In the case of a majority of my elves; that means I've already dawn a good amount of cards and cast a good amount of spells. Also, sweepers don't effect Utopia Sprawl, Arbor Elf, Kessig Wolf Run, or my 6 walkers. Since many of the decks that side in sweepers are relatively "slower" decks in general; these are the cards I'm going to be winning with anyways. As "straight-forward" as the deck may seem; it has taken me a LONG time to figure out the best way to play against all decks in the meta (including the tougher match-ups).
I do appreciate the insight though! Again, I don't know how much you tested it; but any amount of information is great information! While we have to be careful when examining decks not to fall into "generalizations" to discount decks; every bit of information can be extremely helpful. Most creature-based decks are bad to some form of removal. The trick is to discuss WHAT removal the deck is "bad to" and HOW they can play/side around it (assuming they can) to win 2 our of 3 games a majority of the time. Every deck in the end is going to be "bad" against something. People that tell you their deck is "pretty good against everything" are either lying or haven't adequately tested their own deck The real trick to brewing is to figure out exactly where your deck is weak and turn those match-ups post-board into good match-ups!
Hopefully this is helpful to anyone wishing to play this version. I don't want to come off like I'm discounting the other versions of Green Devotion, as I in no way intend to. My goal is not to "promote" the Elf Version over all others. It's simply to explain its viability of the particular version given my hundreds of games tested and history with the deck. While I believe the Elf Version to be the best route; this is based on my play-style and my history with the deck. I play it far better than the others because I've played it so darn much! I truly believe that Green Devotion is an archetype like many others in Modern (UWR Control, Rock/Jund, Pod) that can have 2-3 "core" types that people can play based on their play-style and what they are comfortable with (while still sticking to the core ideas of ramping and card advantage that Green Devotion can do so well). Just as there is Kiki-Pod, Melira Pod, and Angel Pod; so too can there be Primal Devotion, Elf Devotion, and Genesis Devotion (or whatever version you prefer). This primer can help everyone choose which "version they like best and what works best for that particular version. I don't believe there is one "Best Deck"; rather that there 2-3 "routes" you can take each having their own strengths and weaknesses and each performing better or worse against certain match ups (and of course with slightly differing sideboards based on this).
** As an aside, I tried out Dosan the Falling Leaf in the past against control, however found it to be less-than-what I wanted against control builds (as they tend to run bolts, helix's, Electrolyze's, and other items that can pick him off pretty easily). One card I liked that is similar, however, was Defense Grid. It is a card that goes in and out of my board (usually depending on how many Cavern of Souls and Summoning Trap's I'm running) and may very well go right back in soon I only tested about 50 games with him in the board against control builds, however; so my testing is by no means definitive. **
I'm definitely going to try a Joraga Warcaller as well Charlesching...I had tried it breifly in the past (but didn't love it because it's poor interactions with Genesis Wave and Chord of Calling); but it is definitely something that deserves a closer look than I gave it. Thank you so much for your ideas and information from your testing.
By the way, arbor elf does get smacked by sweepers. So does dryad arbor. I'm not entirely sure what you meant when you said it didn't get smacked by sweepers. But there we are.
Also I don't see inkmoth nexus being a wincon. They just bolt it. Not pretty.
I think we should take hints from how those games played out in that recent fnm report a couple of posts above. The problems he mentioned are the ones I've seen myself. It's why I stuck chord in my list in the first place. They cast removal on some clutch-important creature? Chord out a response (or a replacement) and you have either gained or maintained your tempo for the following turn.
It also gets rid of those situations where someone "has a delver I couldn't deal with". Chord up a shriekmaw, or even an elesh norn. Or a wurmcoil. Whatever.
Without something like this, the deck will always be a bit too linear and unable to respond to our opponent's disruption in a way which keeps us on parity or ahead over the course of a game.
The hard part is knowing where to strike the balance.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
mt testing then was more based on an elf build, may not count for much as i have only tried a few games with UWR. i run goblin deck as well, which i realized fared badly against UWR. i think i lose due to over extend as i am using my friend's elf as a base. joraga warcaller work better with primal command. i am thinking more of land destruction with elf base, might work. my testing is limited as i have quite a few deck that i played around with and budget constraint. will try out more.
I did some testing vs affinity and won nearly every game. That's pretty nice considering it's basically enemy number 1 at GPs and PTQs.key cards were nature's claim (3 in the sideboard) and qasali pridemage, who is a nice chordable response. Kataki showed up as well but honestly they can play around him. Spellskite stayed in to shut down ravager and it worked. Generally felt decent. Wurmcoil engine blocking their etched champions is a huge bonus. Corded that guy out and felt like a champ.
I think we have a fair matchup against pod, who are enemy number 2
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I just checked my spreadsheet with my results vs UW/UR/UWR Colors (nontron).
I noticed improvements vs Twin after changing to path to exile/elesh norn/linvala/spellskite/trap version. Turbo-Twin is still unwinable (deck with bops and hierarchs that combo off on turn 3). Tarmo Twin is really hard, as they have really good backup plan while still having access to turn 4 combo with distruption.
Notice I didnt lost a single game vs Tempo/Control. I was really surprised, maybe I forgot to add something?
I think key vs Tempo is: Path to Exile, Polukranos, Resto-angel, Elesh Norn, Summoning Trap. Kill their turn 1 delver, they do nothing. Polukranos cant be killed by tempo, and it destroys them. Elesh Norn is sweaper. Resto angel as a way to protect creature, get additional value, destroy their flyers. Remand your Witness/Selkie? Lets spin a weel with Trap - numerous games when on turn 2 I had 3 witnesses, resto angel and smething big like titan/polukranos/elesh.
Vs Control I just outgrinded them, they dont have real win condition. I think what is important is you shouldnt overextent do anger. And remember, always keep one eternal witness in hand, as when they kill it, witness for witness is a hell for them Command,Plow Under,Trap is too much for them after board.
Take those results with a graint of salt, as I was almost always playing non-genesis wave version. Might be why I had those results?
i like that you're bringing some hard numbers into this, but what sort of sample size are we dealing with? 5 matches against each deck? 2 matches against each deck? 30?
(also you don't need to tell us the total %, we can see that. it's better to tell us the overall % in your favour was - much more useful)
it also matters who your opponents were. a keyed-in player will know the deck already (or have an idea how it works) and capitalise on our weaknesses. a bad player may make good individual plays, but not realise the significance of how our deck works or how to make long-game plays against us.
it's a good start, for sure. i'd like to see those numbers qualified properly though, and corroborated by other players with similar testing regimes.
for example:
affinity (thoughtcast version)
wins 10, losses 0 - 100% wins (3 pre-board, 7 post board). this might seem to be great, but i only played against one opponent. it doesn't tell the whole story, and you should take my testing with a grain of salt.
despite this, there is obviously a grain of truth behind consistent wins - so it merits further testing. can someone else test against affinity?
finally - i still really don't like resto angel here. it riffs off our other cards too much and in a deck already full of cards which require other cards to be good... well i think instead of resto angel i'd like something more inherently good by itself, if you're going to include anything at all. if you're still set on having a more synergistic white flyer i think reveillark is miles better.
Haven't played a lot with the Modern deck, but fairly familiar with Green Genesis/ramp decks. Didn't expect too much from today.
R1: Mono-Black Discard
Fortunately this was a great confidence booster. Despite several discards and Smallpox, I managed to get Garruk and a few 3-Drops into play, and bash him. Game 2 set the precedent for all other matches of siding out most cards over 5 cmc and some G-Waves. Same strategy for the second game, sadly no Obstinate Baloths drawn.
1-0
R2: Junk Pod?
Several Pod like cards, but no actual pod seen. Garruk and Genesis Wave served well. Game 2 had Genesis Hydra into Xenagos, swing for 10.
2-0
R3: R/U Delver
Close Game 1, with two flipped Delvers against me, but I stacked enough Aura's to use Garruk and Nyx to Kessig Wolf Run for 17 in one hit. Game 2 he negated my 1st turn Utopia, bolted my Arbor Elf, and that was that. Game 3 had a turn 3 Primal Command that ended up preventing multiple Molten Rains from hitting my Aura lands. Spinning shock lands to the deck never gets old btw.
3-0
R4: Jund
Don't remember too much about this one sorry. 1st Game seems to be a no pressure build to Genesis Wave, and Game 2 my Scavenging Ooze got a lot of work done against Tarmogoyf. As Curd says above, G/B decks seem to be very favourable match ups for us.
R5: BURN
Ugh. Game 1 was Goblin Guide bashing a little, before multiple 3 damage spells and a Vexing Devil payment just torched me. Game 2 I got a Baloth and a few Courser heals, but continuous 3 damage spells, plus a Rakdos Charm for 5, when I foolishly played too many creatures unaware of it, was just enough.
4-1
R6: Jund
Not much recall about this one. Genesis into Behemoth Game 1, Game 2 they did a lot of chipping to themselves.
5-1
One game to go, in 8th place. Must play to actually make Top 8.
R7: RUG
This was an intense match. Tarmogoyf/Ooze and counters a lot. Plenty of careful sacrificing and timing, got Xenagos out, then Primeval Titan to swing for 12 plus Kessig. Game 2 reveals Aether Vial, Young Pyromancer and a bunch of tokens. He gets me down to 2 before I get a couple of Coursers and my Ooze to heal a little. Vendillion comes down, with no way for me to stop it, but I can have enough creatures and land drops that he can't just swing at me. Time is called, I get Garruk down and tick up. Vendillion goes after me instead, and after a 17/17 Mistcutter, I ultimate Garruk and trample the hell out of him.
6-1, 3rd after swiss.
Top 8: Jund
VERY much attrition base, though they tend to eat their own life. Garruk is a godsend. Game 2 he deals with all my ramp (good thing I rarely have anything greater than 5 after sideboard), and Primal Command just walks all over him, can't lock him, but shuffling our graveyards and searching for Eternal Witnesses really screws with Tarmogoyf. In the end Dark Confidant just kills him.
Top 4: Junk Pod
Mull to 5, keep a one lander with plenty of 2 mana ramp... no land. Game 2, had ramp, but no real gas, never got Command or Slime, and it was all over.
All in all, one of the best Modern tournaments I've ever played.
Garruk and Xenagos were MVPs, Nissa never got a real chance, and would swap for a 2nd Xenagos. My 3s (and 4s after siding) were great to play with nearly all times. I had very few colour issues (though be cautious with Utopia and Selkie). Genesis Hydra was fine, great against blue (got Remanded once or twice). I would probably try and get an extra Ooze in the 75, maybe move one or two in the main (very useful, once Nykthos for 7 to drain both graveyards against Tarmogoyf), take out a Thrun (too many in hand and on field).
i like that you're bringing some hard numbers into this, but what sort of sample size are we dealing with? 5 matches against each deck? 2 matches against each deck? 30?
(also you don't need to tell us the total %, we can see that. it's better to tell us the overall % in your favour was - much more useful)
it also matters who your opponents were. a keyed-in player will know the deck already (or have an idea how it works) and capitalise on our weaknesses. a bad player may make good individual plays, but not realise the significance of how our deck works or how to make long-game plays against us.
it's a good start, for sure. i'd like to see those numbers qualified properly though, and corroborated by other players with similar testing regimes.
for example:
affinity (thoughtcast version)
wins 10, losses 0 - 100% wins (3 pre-board, 7 post board). this might seem to be great, but i only played against one opponent. it doesn't tell the whole story, and you should take my testing with a grain of salt.
despite this, there is obviously a grain of truth behind consistent wins - so it merits further testing. can someone else test against affinity?
finally - i still really don't like resto angel here. it riffs off our other cards too much and in a deck already full of cards which require other cards to be good... well i think instead of resto angel i'd like something more inherently good by itself, if you're going to include anything at all. if you're still set on having a more synergistic white flyer i think reveillark is miles better.
This is whole Matches. Win is either 1-0, 2-0 or 2-1, loose is 0-1, 0-2 or 1-2. I also have data for overall match, however not specified to pre-post board.
Those results are from MTGO Daily/8-man queues, from GPT, PTQ, Monday Night Magic and Friday Night Magic from a most competitive shop in my area.
Every result is from a money tournament (dont know how much do you pay for FNMs or GPTs, we pay ~15$ for constucted gpt, ~8$ for MNM or FNM. I found it good value for money tournament around here.)
As for affinity: I dont have results from pre-stony silence/path to exile/elesh/kataki (for some time I didnt have any answer), currently:
Affinity 5 35,71% 9 64,29% 14 100,00%
Overall 57 29,08% 139 70,92% 196 100,00%
About Resto-Angel.
I am not forcing anyone to play it. Remember I am playing midrange version of this deck, with maindeck path to exile. I just found loosing to much to flyers from hatebears and was trying to find an answer, then I saw restoration angel and found it most synergistic with a version I was running at that point.
Reveillark is an interesting choice, might be really good (returns everything witness for additional way of grind :D)
Haven't played a lot with the Modern deck, but fairly familiar with Green Genesis/ramp decks. Didn't expect too much from today.
R1: Mono-Black Discard
Fortunately this was a great confidence booster. Despite several discards and Smallpox, I managed to get Garruk and a few 3-Drops into play, and bash him. Game 2 set the precedent for all other matches of siding out most cards over 5 cmc and some G-Waves. Same strategy for the second game, sadly no Obstinate Baloths drawn.
1-0
R2: Junk Pod?
Several Pod like cards, but no actual pod seen. Garruk and Genesis Wave served well. Game 2 had Genesis Hydra into Xenagos, swing for 10.
2-0
R3: R/U Delver
Close Game 1, with two flipped Delvers against me, but I stacked enough Aura's to use Garruk and Nyx to Kessig Wolf Run for 17 in one hit. Game 2 he negated my 1st turn Utopia, bolted my Arbor Elf, and that was that. Game 3 had a turn 3 Primal Command that ended up preventing multiple Molten Rains from hitting my Aura lands. Spinning shock lands to the deck never gets old btw.
3-0
R4: Jund
Don't remember too much about this one sorry. 1st Game seems to be a no pressure build to Genesis Wave, and Game 2 my Scavenging Ooze got a lot of work done against Tarmogoyf. As Curd says above, G/B decks seem to be very favourable match ups for us.
R5: BURN
Ugh. Game 1 was Goblin Guide bashing a little, before multiple 3 damage spells and a Vexing Devil payment just torched me. Game 2 I got a Baloth and a few Courser heals, but continuous 3 damage spells, plus a Rakdos Charm for 5, when I foolishly played too many creatures unaware of it, was just enough.
4-1
R6: Jund
Not much recall about this one. Genesis into Behemoth Game 1, Game 2 they did a lot of chipping to themselves.
5-1
One game to go, in 8th place. Must play to actually make Top 8.
R7: RUG
This was an intense match. Tarmogoyf/Ooze and counters a lot. Plenty of careful sacrificing and timing, got Xenagos out, then Primeval Titan to swing for 12 plus Kessig. Game 2 reveals Aether Vial, Young Pyromancer and a bunch of tokens. He gets me down to 2 before I get a couple of Coursers and my Ooze to heal a little. Vendillion comes down, with no way for me to stop it, but I can have enough creatures and land drops that he can't just swing at me. Time is called, I get Garruk down and tick up. Vendillion goes after me instead, and after a 17/17 Mistcutter, I ultimate Garruk and trample the hell out of him.
6-1, 3rd after swiss.
Top 8: Jund
VERY much attrition base, though they tend to eat their own life. Garruk is a godsend. Game 2 he deals with all my ramp (good thing I rarely have anything greater than 5 after sideboard), and Primal Command just walks all over him, can't lock him, but shuffling our graveyards and searching for Eternal Witnesses really screws with Tarmogoyf. In the end Dark Confidant just kills him.
Top 4: Junk Pod
Mull to 5, keep a one lander with plenty of 2 mana ramp... no land. Game 2, had ramp, but no real gas, never got Command or Slime, and it was all over.
All in all, one of the best Modern tournaments I've ever played.
Garruk and Xenagos were MVPs, Nissa never got a real chance, and would swap for a 2nd Xenagos. My 3s (and 4s after siding) were great to play with nearly all times. I had very few colour issues (though be cautious with Utopia and Selkie). Genesis Hydra was fine, great against blue (got Remanded once or twice). I would probably try and get an extra Ooze in the 75, maybe move one or two in the main (very useful, once Nykthos for 7 to drain both graveyards against Tarmogoyf), take out a Thrun (too many in hand and on field).
Looking forward to playing it again.
Good job! Really good finish.
That lose to Burn was really unlucky, as most of us feels this matchup is really good. However sometimes they have it all ;/
Interesting take on your build, could you tell us about some of your choices?
21 lands with 6 fetchlands - it is 1 more than almost every build seen here, also without 2nd splash most people dont play more than 4 fetchlands. How did you like this configuration? Did you play with different manabase? Did you have problems with drawing too many Nykthoses? (I found it really annoying, I am playing similar version with 6 fetchlands)
How did you like lack of Burning-Tree Emissary? Did you find it better or worse? Did you have any problems with devotion?
Similar question about ramp in 2 mana slot. How did you like both Voyaging Satyr and Fertile Ground?
Xenagos, God of Revels looks very good, as it allows every creature to have haste. Hasty Titan/Genesis Hydra happened a lot or most of the time it was just genesis wave combo finish enabler (in case pre-wave you didnt have any creature?)
Vs what decks (other than black discard and burn as it was obvious) did you sideboard Obstinate Baloths? Jund/BG? How did you like them there?
By the way, arbor elf does get smacked by sweepers. So does dryad arbor. I'm not entirely sure what you meant when you said it didn't get smacked by sweepers. But there we are.
Also I don't see inkmoth nexus being a wincon. They just bolt it. Not pretty.
I think we should take hints from how those games played out in that recent fnm report a couple of posts above. The problems he mentioned are the ones I've seen myself. It's why I stuck chord in my list in the first place. They cast removal on some clutch-important creature? Chord out a response (or a replacement) and you have either gained or maintained your tempo for the following turn.
It also gets rid of those situations where someone "has a delver I couldn't deal with". Chord up a shriekmaw, or even an elesh norn. Or a wurmcoil. Whatever.
Without something like this, the deck will always be a bit too linear and unable to respond to our opponent's disruption in a way which keeps us on parity or ahead over the course of a game.
The hard part is knowing where to strike the balance.
I don't actually run Dryad Arbor, but you are right that it does get hit by Sweepers as does Arbor Elf (and birds, and noble hierarch, eternal witness, elvish archdruid, BTE, oracle etc...) Fortunately for cards like Eternal Witness, Coiling Oracle, and Elvish Visionary, they've already "replaced" themselves. And Arbor Elf can untap a Forest (or one enchanted with Utopia Sprawl) in response to the wrath to be used in a later phase. As I was saying, however, Utopia Sprawl (and Garruk..but we ALL run Garruk do not get hit by wrath. As someone who's 1-mana ramp package is four Noble Hierarch, and four Birds...I am interested to know if you ever see any issues with Wrath of any sort? Is Supreme Verdict an issue, and if so how do you play around it? I have no doubt you dealt with this in the past, and I also have no doubt you've already figured out a way to best play/board around it!
I completely agree with you about Chord. You obviously have played with it long enough to begin to see how it can be played outside of just Chording for your win-con and are very proficient with it. I too have found that it is nearly as good in it's versatility as it is with it's pure power. I also quite like what you've done with Chord. I did think at first the deck was a little too close to Pod; however the changes you've made have been positive (in my opinion). I haven't tested it enough (although I have had a little time to test your version) to really have a "studied opinion"; but just in theory I like where it's at! I'm excited to hear about your testing/playing results.
In terms of the Gnuhouse's FNM results, while I appreciate any and all information; I am always careful not to take too much from one 3-game "mirror" match. Just as in the post below (where you discuss sample size); I can't really discount a deck based on a single match. In my history testing; it takes several dozen games just to begin to notice a single trend; let alone to discount one deck to another. I've actually found that game one; traditionally the "Elf Version" vs. the "Primal Command" version is about 60/40 in game one (only because it's slightly faster and generally in game one tends to be a race to get advantage). Games two and three this greatly evens out (of course depending on boards and draws) as they tend to go a few turns later. But this alone does not make one deck "better" than the other...as decks play against an entire meta (not just each other). And I know you weren't talking specifically about that single match when you discussed the posts above (and were more talking about the use and benefit of Chord)...I'm just talking about it as it pertains to the build I play.
One small area we need to be careful of is using "theory" to discount ideas. This is not something that is specific to this thread or to one person. This happens in numerous threads. Every single deck and idea will have a "counter" and/or something that is bad for it. That's what makes MTG such a long-standing game! Just as someone may say "I don't like X; they just bolt it."; I could say "I don't like Elesh Norn, as when you Chord for Elesh Norn they can respond by Path-ing it, Slaughter Pact-ing it, etc." or "the examples you provide of Shreikmaw, Wurmcoil, and/or Elesh Norn, would require 8, 9, and 10 mana sources (one less with Wall of Roots) respectively which is not realistic in many games...Does that make Elesh Norn a bad idea? Does that make Chord a bad idea? Not at all. They're both great and powerful. All of the downsides discussed are entirely true; but it is still a good idea; and knowing the "downsides" is important. We have to be careful that we aren't instantly discounting ideas and rather asking HOW the deck or brewer has dealt with these things. There will always be an "answer"...but the opponent has to have the right answer and have the answer at the right time in reality. Having said all of this, pointing out possibilities and answers is important (as there is every possibility that the brewer had not seen that factor yet...and it gives them an opportunity to discuss means to play around it and/or deal with it if they have).
As another example, many people will say things like, "Creeping Corrosion crushes you...what about Anger of the Gods...it's only got 3 toughness so it gets bolted...Graffdiggers Cage turns X off....etc. All of these are absolutely true and all are things that the deck brewer MUST pay attention to. They are not, however, instant "deck killers". Other factors must be taken into account. These include (a) how prevalent is said card in the meta? (b) is it run main board in many decks or just a sideboard card? (c) how many copies of said card are run on average, (d) is the card run in your otherwise good or bad match-ups? and (e) do you need to respond to it or find ways to play around/through it.
At this point, however, I'm getting far too deep into "theory crafting" and "deck development" and it can only get more boring from here I hope this doesn't seem too argumentative. I don't mean it to be. On the contrary, I love discussions like this and love how positive this thread has been! I only use examples to try to explain the larger ideas of "theory vs. reality". I'm excited to read all of the results that are being posted!
** As an aside...on the Inkmoth discussion, my only questions are (a) does the reward of a potential infect win with an assortment of cards outweigh the risk of having one less green/colored land? How many games has Inkmoth won that wouldn't have been won otherwise? How many games were you negatively affected by not having a colored mana? Keep track of these things during testing and it will tell you whether it should be there or not.
*** Also, for those interested in the "Elf Version"...one area of recent discussion has been how to play with disruption. The way I tend to prefer to deal with disruption is through card advantage (however we tend to hold card advantage/resource advantage in high regard in every build...if you have more cards and more mana than your opponent in any given game; it makes your chances for winning much better). If many of your cards are cantrips and/or are 2+ for 1's; (as Genesis Wave is) the opponent generally is not going to gain any advantage with 1-to-1 removal and/or 1-to-1 counters (i.e. one card for one card). If you can continue to overwhelm your opponent and don't run out of options/threats; you can begin to win "through" even the most disruptive of decks.
This is the one area that is by far the toughest "factor" to see without playing the deck. It is difficult to see "on paper" how powerful a top deck Abundant Growth into Coiling Oracle into Nissa Worldwaker can be. Also, since some of our cards are built on board state (such as Nykthos and Chord); the more enchantments and creatures the better. Having said this, it is extremely important that the deck be able to win in multiple ways and through multiple lines (i.e. you can't count on Craterhoof alone). Without Garruk's overrun, Ezuri's overrun, Craterhoof, Primeval Titan and Nissa (making an army of lands)...the deck would become far too linear and the opponent could simply wait for a Prime Time or Craterhoof and remove it. Purklpuff is 100% correct that the most important factor to Green Devotion decks is striking a balance between the "engine" and the "win-cons" of a deck (and making sure that the ramp is there and effective while also being versatile enough to win through multiple lines). But, there is always room for improvement; and I will keep trying out some new ideas and slight changes here and there...and of course I will post everything I find!
Anywho, I'll post my testing results this evening. Yesterday and today's testing include Rock, Affinity, MJ's Green Devotion build, UWR Control, and Twin (as I play the last two A LOT as they are my tougher match ups). I'll post the results/findings this evening. Keep up the good green work everyone
Nice response. My comment about inkmoth can be expanded.
After board, our opponents will bring in ghost quarter and fulminator mage if they have them. Savvy blue players might leave a cryptic command open. Who knows. Tec edge is a thing. I just know that the things they are likely to bring in against us also happen to be great against inkmoth nexus. I'm inclined to think that a wincon for this deck should play against those hate cards. Craterhoof does a decent job. xenagos, god of revels making hasty primeval titans does a similar thing.
I actually still quite like genesis hydra. If it gets remanded it's like christmasland. But that's just me.
And as someone that played the original plow under deck in standard (years ago) it's a bit of a revelation to see it here. It might work. Certainly seems decent.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Thanks for posting! What a cool list. Love to hear how both Xenagos and Genesis Hydra have performed (as these are somewhat distinct in your build compared to the majority). Can't wait to hear more about it!
I did some testing vs affinity and won nearly every game. That's pretty nice considering it's basically enemy number 1 at GPs and PTQs.key cards were nature's claim (3 in the sideboard) and qasali pridemage, who is a nice chordable response. Kataki showed up as well but honestly they can play around him. Spellskite stayed in to shut down ravager and it worked. Generally felt decent. Wurmcoil engine blocking their etched champions is a huge bonus. Corded that guy out and felt like a champ.
I think we have a fair matchup against pod, who are enemy number 2
Looks like your sideboard did some great work! And main board spellskite paid off too. You are absolutely right...Pod is generally a very easy match up and Affinity we are favored as well. 2 out of the "Big Three" is a great start!
I did some testing vs affinity and won nearly every game. That's pretty nice considering it's basically enemy number 1 at GPs and PTQs.key cards were nature's claim (3 in the sideboard) and qasali pridemage, who is a nice chordable response. Kataki showed up as well but honestly they can play around him. Spellskite stayed in to shut down ravager and it worked. Generally felt decent. Wurmcoil engine blocking their etched champions is a huge bonus. Corded that guy out and felt like a champ.
I think we have a fair matchup against pod, who are enemy number 2
Looks like your sideboard did some great work! And main board spellskite paid off too. You are absolutely right...Pod is generally a very easy match up and Affinity we are favored as well. 2 out of the "Big Three" is a great start!
Yeah kataki didnt feel great. I was much happier with actual removal. Letting them keep their best stuff and sac the rest to a ravager is sort of nasty. If you have spellskite out it's a different story so i guess it's alright. I prefer krosan grip (is that name right?), or just creeping corrosion. Spell is sick.
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Yeah...I could see that...that's really interesting about Kataki. Creeping Corrossion is unreal against them and I quite like Spellskite as well. Krosan Grip (and Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, etc.) tend to be reasonable too.
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So I decided to take a departure from the build I've been running for a while and decided to play Michael Jacob's version from his article. Out went the Geists, a Craterhoof, a Primal Command, and a Wistful Selkie, in went 2 Abundant Growths, 2 Birds of Paradise, a Joraga Treespeaker, an Eternal Witness, and an extra land.
My notes aren't great so I'm going off of memory here.
R1 - Mono Green Devotion
Yep, I played the mirror match.
G1 - He didn't get much going with a bunch of Elvish Visionaries coming into play. I built up my board with Arbor Elves, Wistful Selkies, and a Garruk. I won with Garruk's utimate and a Kessig Wolf Run.
G2 - I think I mulled to 5, couldn't get going fast enough and he won with Garruk, Elves, and Elvish Archdruid (I think). I did get to Genesis Wave for six, but had an absolutely horrible Wave, hitting Wave and Command, 2 lands, a Sprawl, and something else.
G3 - I managed to keep him off of mana with Primal Command and Ghost Quarter, looping them with Witness. I then Titan'd for Kessig and Nykthos and that was all she wrote
The list that this guy was running was very similar to CurdBros' list, with Coiling Oracle, Archruid, and Elves, running Chord of Calling AND Genesis Wave.
R2 - UWR
G1 was a close one and it came down, again, to a poor Genesis Wave. G2 wasn't even close
R3 - UWR (again)
This time it was the Delver version. G1 he flipped 2 Delvers quickly while I stumbled on mana. G2, I was able to build board presence and won with Garruk's ultimate. G3, he flipped an early Delver that I couldn't remove in time.
R4 - GB Rock
While UWR is a bad matchup, this is supposed to be a good one; typically I beat up on Pod and Jund-esque decks. He also lost to my R1 opponent in his previous round, so I was feeling good.
G1 was closer than it should have been, given I hit no Waves or Commands. G2, I kept a really sketchy hand that had a HUGE upside. I had Forest, Ghost Quarter, Treespeaker, Titan, Titan, Garruk, something. If the Treespeaker lives, it's a great hand. Otherwise, it blows. So, turn 2, I level the Treespeaker, he Dismembers it, and that was pretty much all she wrote.
I now remember why I don't like Treespeaker, as he acts as a Time Walk for my opponent most of the time. I think I was able to use him once, but the rest of the time he really blew.
Abundant Growth was okay, but didn't impress. I think I would have preferred the extra Selkie, purely for the devotion, and the extra Primal Command.
Birds didn't come up enough for me to comment on.
I did feel the loss of the Geists, especially against UWR. It's resiliency in the face of bolts, Electrolyze, etc., is really useful. It's also a great card against Rock decks.
Anyways, I haven't decided what to do next week. I'm leaning towards the build I'm more comfortable with, but I might be adventurous and try something different.
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i have tried the elf version before, it is very fast but lose badly to removal and sweeper. therefore very weak against UWR. joraga warcaller might help out and also serve as a win con as pyroclasm,anger of the god hurt us badly.
I am currently testing against Rock as well (as it is becoming exceedingly popular) and will also test against the "Mirror" (Micheal Jacob's version that is) tonight as well. I'll try to keep detailed notes as well (thus far I've kept minor notes, but I will make sure to write out much more in my next several match ups!
I'm surprised you had any trouble with general removal with an Elf build. One-for-one removal is traditionally terrible against us. In most cases they waste one card killing a card that already drew us a card (basically a 1-for-2). Decks that run a lot of 1-for-1 removal loose rather quickly (things like Path, Bolt, Dismember, Slaughter Pact, Abrupt Decay, etc. are not great against us). Electrolyze, however, (if done before an Archdruid) can be very good against us in the early game. You are right, however, that sweepers can be bad if we start slow. Having said this, I don't know what decks you played against or how much you tested the deck; but please feel free to PM me with your findings (as I'd love additional testing info and would greatly appreciate it). I will, however, provide my discussion on sweepers (as it pertains to the Elf Version of Green Devotion) below:
The only real sweepers in the current Meta (per MTGTop8) are Anger of the Gods and Pyroclasm (in some Tron builds), Bile Blight (in some Rock Bulds) and Supreme Verdict (in B/W Tron/Gift builds). Of these, approximately 75%+ of these sweepers are in boards in amounts of 1-2 of's. The "meta" decks that run these cards are (for the most part) 1. UWR control, (2) G/R Tron, and (3) Scapeshift (in the red-heavy versions), and (4) Gift Tron (with of Rock builds running Bile Blight):
1. UWR Control is one of our toughest match-ups. We do have to side in a lot against them and convert our build to more of a "beat down" mode where we punish their counters and their mana. Cavern of Souls is CRAZY good here; but they are definitely favored game one. Even if they side in two Anger of the Gods, however, we become very hard to beat with the Caverns, Summoning Trap, Choke/Boil, and Spellskite. This is the only deck we have a general "transformation" for. Because it's one of our worst match-ups; it is the one with the most dedicated sideboard hate. This helps tremendously in games 2 and 3 to put us in the favorable position.
2. G/R Tron and U/W Tron are typically pretty darn good match-ups for us (I'd say we are a good favorite in most cases to start). We are just that much faster than them and a Wurmcoil can only gain 6 life at most and Karn can only remove one permanent. I'll test a little more against them to see if I was missing something in my prior testing sessions vs. them.
3. Rock decks (as anyone who plays Green Devotion knows) are match-ups that are heavily in our favor. Most of their removal is 1-for-1; and we simply role over them. The same is true of Pod....they are just easy match-ups.
4. Scapeshift is very "style" dependent. Those versions that are more "control" oriented tend to be tougher (and we have to move into slightly more "control" board; but they also slow the game down and allow us to cast Elderscale Wurm and/or Magus of the Moon (both of which make it very difficult to win for them).
Oddly enough, one of my favorite cards against sweepers coming in from the board is Ezuri. His Regeneration ability can make their removal far less effective. This, of course is dependent on my drawing him early enough and/or Chording for him (which actually occurs more often than you'd think as most decks only run 1-2 sweepers). This, however, is a "treat" and is not something I rely on as a strategy directly against sweepers (although I always keep my mind open to it).
As I've discussed in the past, this deck generally doesn't "react" to things (and is more proactive). Rather than working to hold on to a card that can prevent a sweeper; we generally just play right through it. For them to sweep our creatures; that means they already resolved. In the case of a majority of my elves; that means I've already dawn a good amount of cards and cast a good amount of spells. Also, sweepers don't effect Utopia Sprawl, Arbor Elf, Kessig Wolf Run, or my 6 walkers. Since many of the decks that side in sweepers are relatively "slower" decks in general; these are the cards I'm going to be winning with anyways. As "straight-forward" as the deck may seem; it has taken me a LONG time to figure out the best way to play against all decks in the meta (including the tougher match-ups).
I do appreciate the insight though! Again, I don't know how much you tested it; but any amount of information is great information! While we have to be careful when examining decks not to fall into "generalizations" to discount decks; every bit of information can be extremely helpful. Most creature-based decks are bad to some form of removal. The trick is to discuss WHAT removal the deck is "bad to" and HOW they can play/side around it (assuming they can) to win 2 our of 3 games a majority of the time. Every deck in the end is going to be "bad" against something. People that tell you their deck is "pretty good against everything" are either lying or haven't adequately tested their own deck The real trick to brewing is to figure out exactly where your deck is weak and turn those match-ups post-board into good match-ups!
Hopefully this is helpful to anyone wishing to play this version. I don't want to come off like I'm discounting the other versions of Green Devotion, as I in no way intend to. My goal is not to "promote" the Elf Version over all others. It's simply to explain its viability of the particular version given my hundreds of games tested and history with the deck. While I believe the Elf Version to be the best route; this is based on my play-style and my history with the deck. I play it far better than the others because I've played it so darn much! I truly believe that Green Devotion is an archetype like many others in Modern (UWR Control, Rock/Jund, Pod) that can have 2-3 "core" types that people can play based on their play-style and what they are comfortable with (while still sticking to the core ideas of ramping and card advantage that Green Devotion can do so well). Just as there is Kiki-Pod, Melira Pod, and Angel Pod; so too can there be Primal Devotion, Elf Devotion, and Genesis Devotion (or whatever version you prefer). This primer can help everyone choose which "version they like best and what works best for that particular version. I don't believe there is one "Best Deck"; rather that there 2-3 "routes" you can take each having their own strengths and weaknesses and each performing better or worse against certain match ups (and of course with slightly differing sideboards based on this).
** As an aside, I tried out Dosan the Falling Leaf in the past against control, however found it to be less-than-what I wanted against control builds (as they tend to run bolts, helix's, Electrolyze's, and other items that can pick him off pretty easily). One card I liked that is similar, however, was Defense Grid. It is a card that goes in and out of my board (usually depending on how many Cavern of Souls and Summoning Trap's I'm running) and may very well go right back in soon I only tested about 50 games with him in the board against control builds, however; so my testing is by no means definitive. **
Also I don't see inkmoth nexus being a wincon. They just bolt it. Not pretty.
I think we should take hints from how those games played out in that recent fnm report a couple of posts above. The problems he mentioned are the ones I've seen myself. It's why I stuck chord in my list in the first place. They cast removal on some clutch-important creature? Chord out a response (or a replacement) and you have either gained or maintained your tempo for the following turn.
It also gets rid of those situations where someone "has a delver I couldn't deal with". Chord up a shriekmaw, or even an elesh norn. Or a wurmcoil. Whatever.
Without something like this, the deck will always be a bit too linear and unable to respond to our opponent's disruption in a way which keeps us on parity or ahead over the course of a game.
The hard part is knowing where to strike the balance.
I think we have a fair matchup against pod, who are enemy number 2
Lose Win Total:
DeckName Percent Percent Total: Percent
Tempo:
UR Delver 0,00% 9 100,00% 9 100,00%
UW Delver 0,00% 2 100,00% 2 100,00%
UWR Delver 0,00% 2 100,00% 2 100,00%
UWR Geist 0,00% 3 100,00% 3 100,00%
Control:
UW Control 0,00% 5 100,00% 5 100,00%
UWR 0,00% 5 100,00% 5 100,00%
UWR 0,00% 3 100,00% 3 100,00%
UWR Control 0,00% 2 100,00% 2 100,00%
Twin:
UWR Kiki 1 20,00% 4 80,00% 5 100,00%
UR Twin 2 40,00% 3 60,00% 5 100,00%
Turbo Twin 3 100,00% 0,00% 3 100,00%
Scapeshift-Twin 0,00% 2 100,00% 2 100,00%
Tarmo Twin 4 80,00% 1 20,00% 5 100,00%
I just checked my spreadsheet with my results vs UW/UR/UWR Colors (nontron).
I noticed improvements vs Twin after changing to path to exile/elesh norn/linvala/spellskite/trap version. Turbo-Twin is still unwinable (deck with bops and hierarchs that combo off on turn 3). Tarmo Twin is really hard, as they have really good backup plan while still having access to turn 4 combo with distruption.
Notice I didnt lost a single game vs Tempo/Control. I was really surprised, maybe I forgot to add something?
I think key vs Tempo is: Path to Exile, Polukranos, Resto-angel, Elesh Norn, Summoning Trap. Kill their turn 1 delver, they do nothing. Polukranos cant be killed by tempo, and it destroys them. Elesh Norn is sweaper. Resto angel as a way to protect creature, get additional value, destroy their flyers. Remand your Witness/Selkie? Lets spin a weel with Trap - numerous games when on turn 2 I had 3 witnesses, resto angel and smething big like titan/polukranos/elesh.
Vs Control I just outgrinded them, they dont have real win condition. I think what is important is you shouldnt overextent do anger. And remember, always keep one eternal witness in hand, as when they kill it, witness for witness is a hell for them Command,Plow Under,Trap is too much for them after board.
Take those results with a graint of salt, as I was almost always playing non-genesis wave version. Might be why I had those results?
(also you don't need to tell us the total %, we can see that. it's better to tell us the overall % in your favour was - much more useful)
it also matters who your opponents were. a keyed-in player will know the deck already (or have an idea how it works) and capitalise on our weaknesses. a bad player may make good individual plays, but not realise the significance of how our deck works or how to make long-game plays against us.
it's a good start, for sure. i'd like to see those numbers qualified properly though, and corroborated by other players with similar testing regimes.
for example:
affinity (thoughtcast version)
wins 10, losses 0 - 100% wins (3 pre-board, 7 post board). this might seem to be great, but i only played against one opponent. it doesn't tell the whole story, and you should take my testing with a grain of salt.
despite this, there is obviously a grain of truth behind consistent wins - so it merits further testing. can someone else test against affinity?
finally - i still really don't like resto angel here. it riffs off our other cards too much and in a deck already full of cards which require other cards to be good... well i think instead of resto angel i'd like something more inherently good by itself, if you're going to include anything at all. if you're still set on having a more synergistic white flyer i think reveillark is miles better.
4x Voyaging Satyr
3x Wistful Selkie
3x Courser of Kruphix
3x Eternal Witness
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
2x Primeval Titan
1x Genesis Hydra
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Nissa, Worldwaker
2x Fertile Ground
3x Genesis Wave
3x Primal Command
4x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
2x Stomping Grounds
8x Forest
3x Obstinate Baloth
3x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Mistcutter Hydra
3x Acidic Slime
1x Genesis Hydra
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Primal Command
I kinda just threw the sideboard together...
Haven't played a lot with the Modern deck, but fairly familiar with Green Genesis/ramp decks. Didn't expect too much from today.
R1: Mono-Black Discard
Fortunately this was a great confidence booster. Despite several discards and Smallpox, I managed to get Garruk and a few 3-Drops into play, and bash him. Game 2 set the precedent for all other matches of siding out most cards over 5 cmc and some G-Waves. Same strategy for the second game, sadly no Obstinate Baloths drawn.
1-0
R2: Junk Pod?
Several Pod like cards, but no actual pod seen. Garruk and Genesis Wave served well. Game 2 had Genesis Hydra into Xenagos, swing for 10.
2-0
R3: R/U Delver
Close Game 1, with two flipped Delvers against me, but I stacked enough Aura's to use Garruk and Nyx to Kessig Wolf Run for 17 in one hit. Game 2 he negated my 1st turn Utopia, bolted my Arbor Elf, and that was that. Game 3 had a turn 3 Primal Command that ended up preventing multiple Molten Rains from hitting my Aura lands. Spinning shock lands to the deck never gets old btw.
3-0
R4: Jund
Don't remember too much about this one sorry. 1st Game seems to be a no pressure build to Genesis Wave, and Game 2 my Scavenging Ooze got a lot of work done against Tarmogoyf. As Curd says above, G/B decks seem to be very favourable match ups for us.
R5: BURN
Ugh. Game 1 was Goblin Guide bashing a little, before multiple 3 damage spells and a Vexing Devil payment just torched me. Game 2 I got a Baloth and a few Courser heals, but continuous 3 damage spells, plus a Rakdos Charm for 5, when I foolishly played too many creatures unaware of it, was just enough.
4-1
R6: Jund
Not much recall about this one. Genesis into Behemoth Game 1, Game 2 they did a lot of chipping to themselves.
5-1
One game to go, in 8th place. Must play to actually make Top 8.
R7: RUG
This was an intense match. Tarmogoyf/Ooze and counters a lot. Plenty of careful sacrificing and timing, got Xenagos out, then Primeval Titan to swing for 12 plus Kessig. Game 2 reveals Aether Vial, Young Pyromancer and a bunch of tokens. He gets me down to 2 before I get a couple of Coursers and my Ooze to heal a little. Vendillion comes down, with no way for me to stop it, but I can have enough creatures and land drops that he can't just swing at me. Time is called, I get Garruk down and tick up. Vendillion goes after me instead, and after a 17/17 Mistcutter, I ultimate Garruk and trample the hell out of him.
6-1, 3rd after swiss.
Top 8: Jund
VERY much attrition base, though they tend to eat their own life. Garruk is a godsend. Game 2 he deals with all my ramp (good thing I rarely have anything greater than 5 after sideboard), and Primal Command just walks all over him, can't lock him, but shuffling our graveyards and searching for Eternal Witnesses really screws with Tarmogoyf. In the end Dark Confidant just kills him.
Top 4: Junk Pod
Mull to 5, keep a one lander with plenty of 2 mana ramp... no land. Game 2, had ramp, but no real gas, never got Command or Slime, and it was all over.
All in all, one of the best Modern tournaments I've ever played.
Garruk and Xenagos were MVPs, Nissa never got a real chance, and would swap for a 2nd Xenagos. My 3s (and 4s after siding) were great to play with nearly all times. I had very few colour issues (though be cautious with Utopia and Selkie). Genesis Hydra was fine, great against blue (got Remanded once or twice). I would probably try and get an extra Ooze in the 75, maybe move one or two in the main (very useful, once Nykthos for 7 to drain both graveyards against Tarmogoyf), take out a Thrun (too many in hand and on field).
Looking forward to playing it again.
This is whole Matches. Win is either 1-0, 2-0 or 2-1, loose is 0-1, 0-2 or 1-2. I also have data for overall match, however not specified to pre-post board.
Those results are from MTGO Daily/8-man queues, from GPT, PTQ, Monday Night Magic and Friday Night Magic from a most competitive shop in my area.
Every result is from a money tournament (dont know how much do you pay for FNMs or GPTs, we pay ~15$ for constucted gpt, ~8$ for MNM or FNM. I found it good value for money tournament around here.)
As for affinity: I dont have results from pre-stony silence/path to exile/elesh/kataki (for some time I didnt have any answer), currently:
Affinity 5 35,71% 9 64,29% 14 100,00%
Overall 57 29,08% 139 70,92% 196 100,00%
About Resto-Angel.
I am not forcing anyone to play it. Remember I am playing midrange version of this deck, with maindeck path to exile. I just found loosing to much to flyers from hatebears and was trying to find an answer, then I saw restoration angel and found it most synergistic with a version I was running at that point.
Reveillark is an interesting choice, might be really good (returns everything witness for additional way of grind :D)
Good job! Really good finish.
That lose to Burn was really unlucky, as most of us feels this matchup is really good. However sometimes they have it all ;/
Interesting take on your build, could you tell us about some of your choices?
21 lands with 6 fetchlands - it is 1 more than almost every build seen here, also without 2nd splash most people dont play more than 4 fetchlands. How did you like this configuration? Did you play with different manabase? Did you have problems with drawing too many Nykthoses? (I found it really annoying, I am playing similar version with 6 fetchlands)
How did you like lack of Burning-Tree Emissary? Did you find it better or worse? Did you have any problems with devotion?
Similar question about ramp in 2 mana slot. How did you like both Voyaging Satyr and Fertile Ground?
Xenagos, God of Revels looks very good, as it allows every creature to have haste. Hasty Titan/Genesis Hydra happened a lot or most of the time it was just genesis wave combo finish enabler (in case pre-wave you didnt have any creature?)
Vs what decks (other than black discard and burn as it was obvious) did you sideboard Obstinate Baloths? Jund/BG? How did you like them there?
I don't actually run Dryad Arbor, but you are right that it does get hit by Sweepers as does Arbor Elf (and birds, and noble hierarch, eternal witness, elvish archdruid, BTE, oracle etc...) Fortunately for cards like Eternal Witness, Coiling Oracle, and Elvish Visionary, they've already "replaced" themselves. And Arbor Elf can untap a Forest (or one enchanted with Utopia Sprawl) in response to the wrath to be used in a later phase. As I was saying, however, Utopia Sprawl (and Garruk..but we ALL run Garruk do not get hit by wrath. As someone who's 1-mana ramp package is four Noble Hierarch, and four Birds...I am interested to know if you ever see any issues with Wrath of any sort? Is Supreme Verdict an issue, and if so how do you play around it? I have no doubt you dealt with this in the past, and I also have no doubt you've already figured out a way to best play/board around it!
I completely agree with you about Chord. You obviously have played with it long enough to begin to see how it can be played outside of just Chording for your win-con and are very proficient with it. I too have found that it is nearly as good in it's versatility as it is with it's pure power. I also quite like what you've done with Chord. I did think at first the deck was a little too close to Pod; however the changes you've made have been positive (in my opinion). I haven't tested it enough (although I have had a little time to test your version) to really have a "studied opinion"; but just in theory I like where it's at! I'm excited to hear about your testing/playing results.
In terms of the Gnuhouse's FNM results, while I appreciate any and all information; I am always careful not to take too much from one 3-game "mirror" match. Just as in the post below (where you discuss sample size); I can't really discount a deck based on a single match. In my history testing; it takes several dozen games just to begin to notice a single trend; let alone to discount one deck to another. I've actually found that game one; traditionally the "Elf Version" vs. the "Primal Command" version is about 60/40 in game one (only because it's slightly faster and generally in game one tends to be a race to get advantage). Games two and three this greatly evens out (of course depending on boards and draws) as they tend to go a few turns later. But this alone does not make one deck "better" than the other...as decks play against an entire meta (not just each other). And I know you weren't talking specifically about that single match when you discussed the posts above (and were more talking about the use and benefit of Chord)...I'm just talking about it as it pertains to the build I play.
One small area we need to be careful of is using "theory" to discount ideas. This is not something that is specific to this thread or to one person. This happens in numerous threads. Every single deck and idea will have a "counter" and/or something that is bad for it. That's what makes MTG such a long-standing game! Just as someone may say "I don't like X; they just bolt it."; I could say "I don't like Elesh Norn, as when you Chord for Elesh Norn they can respond by Path-ing it, Slaughter Pact-ing it, etc." or "the examples you provide of Shreikmaw, Wurmcoil, and/or Elesh Norn, would require 8, 9, and 10 mana sources (one less with Wall of Roots) respectively which is not realistic in many games...Does that make Elesh Norn a bad idea? Does that make Chord a bad idea? Not at all. They're both great and powerful. All of the downsides discussed are entirely true; but it is still a good idea; and knowing the "downsides" is important. We have to be careful that we aren't instantly discounting ideas and rather asking HOW the deck or brewer has dealt with these things. There will always be an "answer"...but the opponent has to have the right answer and have the answer at the right time in reality. Having said all of this, pointing out possibilities and answers is important (as there is every possibility that the brewer had not seen that factor yet...and it gives them an opportunity to discuss means to play around it and/or deal with it if they have).
As another example, many people will say things like, "Creeping Corrosion crushes you...what about Anger of the Gods...it's only got 3 toughness so it gets bolted...Graffdiggers Cage turns X off....etc. All of these are absolutely true and all are things that the deck brewer MUST pay attention to. They are not, however, instant "deck killers". Other factors must be taken into account. These include (a) how prevalent is said card in the meta? (b) is it run main board in many decks or just a sideboard card? (c) how many copies of said card are run on average, (d) is the card run in your otherwise good or bad match-ups? and (e) do you need to respond to it or find ways to play around/through it.
At this point, however, I'm getting far too deep into "theory crafting" and "deck development" and it can only get more boring from here I hope this doesn't seem too argumentative. I don't mean it to be. On the contrary, I love discussions like this and love how positive this thread has been! I only use examples to try to explain the larger ideas of "theory vs. reality". I'm excited to read all of the results that are being posted!
** As an aside...on the Inkmoth discussion, my only questions are (a) does the reward of a potential infect win with an assortment of cards outweigh the risk of having one less green/colored land? How many games has Inkmoth won that wouldn't have been won otherwise? How many games were you negatively affected by not having a colored mana? Keep track of these things during testing and it will tell you whether it should be there or not.
*** Also, for those interested in the "Elf Version"...one area of recent discussion has been how to play with disruption. The way I tend to prefer to deal with disruption is through card advantage (however we tend to hold card advantage/resource advantage in high regard in every build...if you have more cards and more mana than your opponent in any given game; it makes your chances for winning much better). If many of your cards are cantrips and/or are 2+ for 1's; (as Genesis Wave is) the opponent generally is not going to gain any advantage with 1-to-1 removal and/or 1-to-1 counters (i.e. one card for one card). If you can continue to overwhelm your opponent and don't run out of options/threats; you can begin to win "through" even the most disruptive of decks.
This is the one area that is by far the toughest "factor" to see without playing the deck. It is difficult to see "on paper" how powerful a top deck Abundant Growth into Coiling Oracle into Nissa Worldwaker can be. Also, since some of our cards are built on board state (such as Nykthos and Chord); the more enchantments and creatures the better. Having said this, it is extremely important that the deck be able to win in multiple ways and through multiple lines (i.e. you can't count on Craterhoof alone). Without Garruk's overrun, Ezuri's overrun, Craterhoof, Primeval Titan and Nissa (making an army of lands)...the deck would become far too linear and the opponent could simply wait for a Prime Time or Craterhoof and remove it. Purklpuff is 100% correct that the most important factor to Green Devotion decks is striking a balance between the "engine" and the "win-cons" of a deck (and making sure that the ramp is there and effective while also being versatile enough to win through multiple lines). But, there is always room for improvement; and I will keep trying out some new ideas and slight changes here and there...and of course I will post everything I find!
Anywho, I'll post my testing results this evening. Yesterday and today's testing include Rock, Affinity, MJ's Green Devotion build, UWR Control, and Twin (as I play the last two A LOT as they are my tougher match ups). I'll post the results/findings this evening. Keep up the good green work everyone
After board, our opponents will bring in ghost quarter and fulminator mage if they have them. Savvy blue players might leave a cryptic command open. Who knows. Tec edge is a thing. I just know that the things they are likely to bring in against us also happen to be great against inkmoth nexus. I'm inclined to think that a wincon for this deck should play against those hate cards. Craterhoof does a decent job. xenagos, god of revels making hasty primeval titans does a similar thing.
I actually still quite like genesis hydra. If it gets remanded it's like christmasland. But that's just me.
And as someone that played the original plow under deck in standard (years ago) it's a bit of a revelation to see it here. It might work. Certainly seems decent.
Thanks for posting! What a cool list. Love to hear how both Xenagos and Genesis Hydra have performed (as these are somewhat distinct in your build compared to the majority). Can't wait to hear more about it!
Looks like your sideboard did some great work! And main board spellskite paid off too. You are absolutely right...Pod is generally a very easy match up and Affinity we are favored as well. 2 out of the "Big Three" is a great start!
Yeah kataki didnt feel great. I was much happier with actual removal. Letting them keep their best stuff and sac the rest to a ravager is sort of nasty. If you have spellskite out it's a different story so i guess it's alright. I prefer krosan grip (is that name right?), or just creeping corrosion. Spell is sick.