I´m a little dissapointed to hear that your testing with Sorin, Lord of Innistrad went that way. I thought that it would be actaully better than good ol' Gid, but oh well...
I´m sure I´ll give him a try at some point. I guess his -2 is kind of like embleming a Gideon right away, only that you don´t get +1 toughness and you keep a 1 loyalty planeswalker. You´re right in that this is not actually that impressive, even on paper...
LoI is better on an empty board state than SV. Whether LoI is better than Gideon with an open board state is debatable. Generally, a chump blocker is a chump blocker and the lifelink will even make up for the occasion where the bad guy has trample. LoI's tokens are made with the +1 and that's significant. Gideon can do the beater trick though.
Well, the thing with Start // Finish is that that card would probably be good enough to be played even if the tokens didn´t have vigilance, simply because it can pull a decent Lingering Souls impression with it´s two halves.
The way I see it getting just 3 tokens for a 4cmc spell is simply not worth it, it doesn´t matter whether they have lifelink or any other ability or if the spell let´s you freecast something for 3cmc or less (like Sram's Expertise).
I think it won´t see play not because lifelink is such a horrible ability for us (it´s not, I agree with you on that) but more so because the card itself doesn´t provide us with enough value for it´s high cmc.
Compare it to Spectral Procession, a card the both of us cut down to a 3x already. It´s usually 1 mana less AND gives us better tokens (Flying > Lifelink). I simply can´t see a world where we would play that spell over adding the 4th Procession first.
Don't get me wrong, I freaking love Spectral procession and 99% of times flying is better than lifelink. However he's really locking our mana base and give us few space for utility lands (Ghost quarter comes to mind). Maybe I'm just being a big baby/drama queen about it since diatetone doesn't seem to have a problem with 4 colorless mana sources and I actually do with only two. (Congrats on placing 6th with such a large player pool BTW)
Also, I can think of a couple scenario where 3 lifelinker would save me. Most aggro decks don't want to see 1/1 lifelinkers, let alone three and let alone beefed-up ones. it's also another type of tokens that make cards like Bile blight and Maelstrom pulse weaker. Plus, If you're looking for gainging life while not cutting on the strategy too much, lifelink tokens seem like the way to go. But still, turn 4 makes it very slow, especially against burn decks. You're supposedly dead by the point the tokens can attack. If only it was an instant
Still I'm willing to test it before completely shunning it and see what happens. If you're looking at sorin, Lord of innistrad, this card is technically three sorin +1 in a single turn.
I´m a little dissapointed to hear that your testing with Sorin, Lord of Innistrad went that way. I thought that it would be actually better than good ol' Gid, but oh well...
I´m sure I´ll give him a try at some point. I guess his -2 is kind of like embleming a Gideon right away, only that you don´t get +1 toughness and you keep a 1 loyalty planeswalker. You´re right in that this is not actually that impressive, even on paper...
He'st not fantastic, but he does his job, just slower and less menacingly. Like pzbw7z said, he's pretty good at making chump blockers. I'm gonna test him more before really making a final judgement. I'm still at the first week of testing after all, maybe it was just a bad one. I seem to be having a lot of those lately.
Hey some of you guys were wondering what an aggro-midrange build of BW Tokens would look like (as opposed to the midrange-control shells most of us are running). This is a little old, but I found an interesting example from which you could probably extrapolate what the modern iteration would be:
Well, I think diateone's approach to utility lands is entirely without fault. Even if there are no major mana troubles that come with it, it makes the manabase a bit more inconsistent, it has to.
If you read his report a few posts above (post #3403) in round 1 he did get stuck with 2 Ghost Quarters and had problems finding WW for his wrath.
Also hiting WWW on 3 for Spectral Procession is not as much of a restriction as many seem to make it out to be. (At least for me it hasn´t. Even keeping in mind that my manabase is quite far from perfect at this point I don´t remember the last time I had to cast it for more than 3 mana)
We all tested Sram's Expertise when it came out, right? We tought about it and it seemed like such a great card. Potentially 3 2/2 tokens for 4cmc (with Intangible Virtue as freecast) or even 5 tokens for 4cmc (with Lingering Souls as freecast). Maybe even an amazing tempo play with any removal spell as freecast.
Looking at it even only on paper alone this has to be far superior to 3 1/1 lifelink tokens, right?
Turns out Expertise was not good enough. Not anywhere close. Why would this card be good enough then? Just because it might gain us some life? We have other things that do that better. MUCH better.
You're probably right about that. We do have better lifegain options. Perhaps I should seriously revisit Auriok Champion and Timely reinforcements. I just hate the fact that those are near useless in certain match-ups like combo and control and so they will take places in the side.
Hey some of you guys were wondering what an aggro-midrange build of BW Tokens would look like (as opposed to the midrange-control shells most of us are running). This is a little old, but I found an interesting example from which you could probably extrapolate what the modern iteration would be:
Simply cutting our 4-drop to two Sorin, solemn visitor and running raise the alarm already makes our deck way more aggressive. That's probably something I should revisit too. I feel like my build has been getting slower and slower in the last month or so.
Yesterday I went 4-0 at my local FNM with a list far from optimal (I' ve borrowed the March of Multitudes Event deck - https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/264072#paper - from a friend and added some cards that were lying around in my collection), but it performed really well.
As you can see, this is a mess. Anyway, these were my games.
2-1 against Jeskai Nahiri: lost G1 to Emrakul and Supreme Verdict. Duress and Cast Out helped a lot in G2, and G3 he missed the third land drop for a couple turns with a double anthem on the battlefield and 4 tokens on my side.
2-1 against Grixis control: won G1 with a fast clock, Dismembering his Tasigur and Pushing Kalitas. Lost G2 to mana flood and one well timed Damnation with a finishing Bolt-Snap-Bolt. Won G3 topdecking a third anthem effect with 3 spirits flying over his Kalitas for 12 damage.
2-1 against UB Mill: Lost G1 to Fraying Sanity with Glimpse milling my last 20 cards (I had lethal on board my next turn). G2 I side in Sunscourge Champion just so to have something to cast from the grave and guess what, she won me the game. G3 he keeps a sketchy hand with 4 lands, Duress turn1 and Sculler turn2 keeps him out of G3.
2-0 against Storm: G1 I win turn5 thanks to anthem + Shefet pump. G2 Relic makes it really easy.
People, try Shefet Dunes if you haven't already. It's a really good card in this deck. Cheers
Shefet Dunes looks like a perfectly reasonable one-of.
Replace Elspeth, Knight-Errant with Sorin, Solemn Visitor and you're closer to where the cool kids are. [card-Liliana, the Last Hope]Newliana[/card] is unconventional but not a bad card by any means. Scully isn't popular these days but he's fine.
Start replacing the two extra Swamps with W-fetches and then the Isolated Chapels and the Caves of Koilos with more W-fetches or Fetid Heath and you'll have solid mana.
Things like Ensnaring Bridge are the reason I like an Anguished Unmaking in the main-deck in the removal suite. It can take care of Bridges, Worship and all manner of random jank and still kill a creature in a pinch.
A good card in the vein of AU or Utter End, that is, a similar, reasonably costed effect, is what BW tokens really needs, in my view. Neither of these is really good, but AU seems like a necessary evil.
Well sir, congrats for the deck. We are getting serious now I really like your mainlist, even if I am not sure how I feel about running 4 BB. I might try some day. The SB is a bit different to what I like to play, but it is perfectly reasonable. You could consider adding a 3rd Stony there for the last slot.
Nice build tarotplz! Congratulations on the deck! I would actually recommend dropping your third Shambling Vent for that fourth Windswept Heath Otherwise, it looks good!
I am interested in trying out a pair of them. Seems like another way to grind opponents down. Effectively 4 mana for a 1/1 lifelink token isn't great but it does play to the strengths of the deck and I can see it being a star in some matchups. Sweeper insurance mostly. Attacking with 3 creatures is trivial for us so flipping it should be easy. I like that it costs W but wouldn't play it over hand disruption turn 1. Seems more like a turn 4ish play and I especially like that it flips and then becomes Path mana if needed.
Very excited to see token generators coming up in new editions!
Objectively, I am not sure it makes the cut. Very low impact on its own, plus our deck being quite streamlined in the first turns with a fenomenal discard-package makes difficult finding room for it. If you want to play it early, then you should run 3 minimum, and that doesn't play nice with the legend rule, if you happen to draw multiples. Lifelink is nice but flying is what wins us 80% of the games.
Once it transforms into the land, it is nuts, but unfortunately the effect is not immediate usually.
It impacts ok-ish on turn one and only when the board is already settled when drawn late. Seems like a win more card for us that, as much as I would like to, doesnt seem to make the cut here.
It gives fuel for Finish, let's not ignore that. Also, it's not a turn 1 play as we aren't gonna flip it until 3 at the earliest anyhow. I like it turn 3+ and flip that same turn.
I think a 1 or 2 of will end up mandatory for this card. And in some match ups in the sideboard, especially where you are bringing in things like Secure the Wastes and big Elspeth.
The key to me in Legion's Landing is when its flipped it basically is playing an extra land on turn 4. It makes things like Elspeth Tirel possibly playable as a turn 4 drop.
Its initial and subsequent token's have lifelink, which make it relevant with Bitterblossom and against burn.
This is the best use it could have, IMO. T4 play and flip for some ramp. However, it requires a developed board, just as Sorin does. Only that he is way more powerful. Thus, the feeling that it does not make the cut...
I've been messing around with GW Tokens for awhile, but I always missed what you got from Black. The GW Tokens lists from Standard kind of made me rethink how you could build token decks around creatures and token generators and global pump. So looking at the new 'Walker rules I'm getting ready to try this out:
Clearly, it's not "there" yet, and I don't know if it counts as a tokens deck or just a very different kind of junk deck. It's got a lot of pro-active plays on turns 1 and 2, and can really grind people out in the long game while the tokens, discard, and removal slow the game down early on.
Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on this? Telling me to take it to a different thread works too, because this really pushes the bounds of this one.
Thanks.
IDK... I also thought going back to 23 lands and take a couple things out for a 3of, but I just dont feel it is right. I really dont have time these days but I would love to see some testing. Something like: -Shambling vent -Push + 2 Legion's Landing.
You're right about the Kamigawa lands and running less than 4x Lingering Souls. 25 lands might also be too much. I've run Intangible Virtue in token decks before, and I have mixed feelings on its effectiveness. When it works, it's really, really good. But it doesn't always work. And it's a big fat nothing if you're not ahead when you cast it. So yeah, I've got mixed feelings about it.
I've always liked Vastwood Seer, but you're right, she might not be the best fit for this deck, but her 4/4 token is pretty hefty, and the card draw is strong. Playing a version of this deck last night, I liked the card draw and the hefty blocker quite a bit. The removal and discard package needs tweaking, it doesn't feel like it's quite there yet. Some number of Paths should be included.
Thanks for the feedback, you had some really good points.
EDIT: maybe Pride Sovereign should be in here? Flip Gideon can untap him every turn if needed.
I always have mixed emotions about creatures that act as token generators. You try to go wide and numb their spot removal, while you source is something that spot removal can target. That is counter-intuitive, and feels wrong to me.
I would go -3 nissa flip -3 kytheon +3 path +2 smuggler's copter +1 Start / Finish. Brimaz could stay, although I would replace him with another pw, likely Gideon, AoZ. 2 Abrupt decays seems excessive considering you run 3 pushes, and the current state of the meta. Some people have tried it and they didnt really like it. Maybe replacing 1 for a zealous persecution and leaving 1 for maindeck farts like ensnaring bridge or Lili, last hope?
And if you finally decide that you like intangible (which is the card that make token decks possible, imo), I would remove the vehicles for a playset of them.
Definitely go down 1 land (since you are playing legion's landing) and a Sorin, LoI for the 2 Lingering souls remaining, you can't go with less than 4, forum rules...
Field of Ruin can be played as early as turn 3 but unlike Ghost Quarters, it doesn't put you down a land. I don't like playing more than 2 colorless sources but this seems quite interesting. Maybe less relevant in Modern because most decks do play some sort of basics.
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LoI is better on an empty board state than SV. Whether LoI is better than Gideon with an open board state is debatable. Generally, a chump blocker is a chump blocker and the lifelink will even make up for the occasion where the bad guy has trample. LoI's tokens are made with the +1 and that's significant. Gideon can do the beater trick though.
I'm not sure, but I doubt LoI replaces Gideon.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Also, I can think of a couple scenario where 3 lifelinker would save me. Most aggro decks don't want to see 1/1 lifelinkers, let alone three and let alone beefed-up ones. it's also another type of tokens that make cards like Bile blight and Maelstrom pulse weaker. Plus, If you're looking for gainging life while not cutting on the strategy too much, lifelink tokens seem like the way to go. But still, turn 4 makes it very slow, especially against burn decks. You're supposedly dead by the point the tokens can attack. If only it was an instant
Still I'm willing to test it before completely shunning it and see what happens. If you're looking at sorin, Lord of innistrad, this card is technically three sorin +1 in a single turn. He'st not fantastic, but he does his job, just slower and less menacingly. Like pzbw7z said, he's pretty good at making chump blockers. I'm gonna test him more before really making a final judgement. I'm still at the first week of testing after all, maybe it was just a bad one. I seem to be having a lot of those lately.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-tokens-05-02-14-1/
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
My sideboard is already soooo freaking full.Simply cutting our 4-drop to two Sorin, solemn visitor and running raise the alarm already makes our deck way more aggressive. That's probably something I should revisit too. I feel like my build has been getting slower and slower in the last month or so.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Shefet Dunes looks like a perfectly reasonable one-of.
Replace Elspeth, Knight-Errant with Sorin, Solemn Visitor and you're closer to where the cool kids are. [card-Liliana, the Last Hope]Newliana[/card] is unconventional but not a bad card by any means. Scully isn't popular these days but he's fine.
Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek are de rigeur in BW tokens. You should probably find room for some one-mana discard main-deck.
Start replacing the two extra Swamps with W-fetches and then the Isolated Chapels and the Caves of Koilos with more W-fetches or Fetid Heath and you'll have solid mana.
Soul Warden seems unusual. Perhaps Collective Brutality would be a good choice for extra side-board life-gain.
Despite the good result with Sunscourge Champion, I doubt it's the best choice.
In any case, side-boards have to built with one's environment in mind so it's difficult to recommend choices for anyone else.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
A good card in the vein of AU or Utter End, that is, a similar, reasonably costed effect, is what BW tokens really needs, in my view. Neither of these is really good, but AU seems like a necessary evil.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
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Curse PremiumI didn't do fantastic unfortunately. But I figured it might be worth the read for somebody out there.
https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgModernTokens/comments/6z8wx6/at_the_frogtownhobbies_scg_iq_remind_me_to_post_a/
Objectively, I am not sure it makes the cut. Very low impact on its own, plus our deck being quite streamlined in the first turns with a fenomenal discard-package makes difficult finding room for it. If you want to play it early, then you should run 3 minimum, and that doesn't play nice with the legend rule, if you happen to draw multiples. Lifelink is nice but flying is what wins us 80% of the games.
Once it transforms into the land, it is nuts, but unfortunately the effect is not immediate usually.
It impacts ok-ish on turn one and only when the board is already settled when drawn late. Seems like a win more card for us that, as much as I would like to, doesnt seem to make the cut here.
What do you guys think? Some playtest never hurts
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I think a 1 or 2 of will end up mandatory for this card. And in some match ups in the sideboard, especially where you are bringing in things like Secure the Wastes and big Elspeth.
Its initial and subsequent token's have lifelink, which make it relevant with Bitterblossom and against burn.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3x Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Vehicles - 2
2x Heart of Kiran
Planeswalkers - 10
3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
Spells - 14
3x Legion's Landing
3x Fatal Push
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Lingering Souls
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Gavony Township
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Windswept Heath
1x Temple Garden
1x Godless Shrine
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Forest
2x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Concealed Courtyard
1x Blooming Marsh
1x Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Eiganjo Castle
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Aven Mindcensor
2x Obsinate Baloth
3x Stony Silence
3x Duress
Clearly, it's not "there" yet, and I don't know if it counts as a tokens deck or just a very different kind of junk deck. It's got a lot of pro-active plays on turns 1 and 2, and can really grind people out in the long game while the tokens, discard, and removal slow the game down early on.
Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on this? Telling me to take it to a different thread works too, because this really pushes the bounds of this one.
Thanks.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
You're right about the Kamigawa lands and running less than 4x Lingering Souls. 25 lands might also be too much. I've run Intangible Virtue in token decks before, and I have mixed feelings on its effectiveness. When it works, it's really, really good. But it doesn't always work. And it's a big fat nothing if you're not ahead when you cast it. So yeah, I've got mixed feelings about it.
I've always liked Vastwood Seer, but you're right, she might not be the best fit for this deck, but her 4/4 token is pretty hefty, and the card draw is strong. Playing a version of this deck last night, I liked the card draw and the hefty blocker quite a bit. The removal and discard package needs tweaking, it doesn't feel like it's quite there yet. Some number of Paths should be included.
Thanks for the feedback, you had some really good points.
EDIT: maybe Pride Sovereign should be in here? Flip Gideon can untap him every turn if needed.
I would go -3 nissa flip -3 kytheon +3 path +2 smuggler's copter +1 Start / Finish. Brimaz could stay, although I would replace him with another pw, likely Gideon, AoZ. 2 Abrupt decays seems excessive considering you run 3 pushes, and the current state of the meta. Some people have tried it and they didnt really like it. Maybe replacing 1 for a zealous persecution and leaving 1 for maindeck farts like ensnaring bridge or Lili, last hope?
And if you finally decide that you like intangible (which is the card that make token decks possible, imo), I would remove the vehicles for a playset of them.
Definitely go down 1 land (since you are playing legion's landing) and a Sorin, LoI for the 2 Lingering souls remaining, you can't go with less than 4, forum rules...
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Field of Ruin can be played as early as turn 3 but unlike Ghost Quarters, it doesn't put you down a land. I don't like playing more than 2 colorless sources but this seems quite interesting. Maybe less relevant in Modern because most decks do play some sort of basics.