@badmcfadden have you tried a ratchet/ee split so one interacts with whir?
I have considered ratchet bomb before for that exact reason (being whirrable), but my experience with spellbomb/relic kind of shows that we do not whir for "occasionally value" cards in game one. It's pretty much always better to get a combo piece or a bridge. Also, I don't think there are many scenarios where whirring for a ratchet bomb g1 is going to solve a problem fast enough to matter.
You can't tutor the explosives, but they have surprise value (Cast and pop), can immediately take out CMC 2-3- and even 4, and can be dropped for 0 if you just need the opal/whir/bridge value. For example in one game today I 4-for-1d elves turn 3 with explosives. Christmasland yes, but if I had cast ratchet bomb t2 he would not have extended into 2 more one drops on his turn. Versus bloom he tried to stabilize with an azusa vs tez at 9 life. I was able to ghetto it up with a 3 point explosives and kill azusa then make another 5/5 and swing for lethal. Niche yes, but those options with explosives are what impress. I don't think bomb has those sort of random situational upsides (okay, we could tick it up to 7 to kill elesh norn or 8 to kill platinum emperion)
I did just get to live the dream of mindcranking a living end opponent out. We were having a staredown and he finally taps low to suspend living end, so I whir for crank, untap cast duskmantle activate and swing with a beast token (he had killed a foundry earlier) gg. I actually also ridiculously had 9 mana available too thanks to a loaded pentad prism and an opal with opal in hand so could have combod off without attacking. The mindcrank scenarios kind of look like this:
3 mana version: mindcrank and gmage on table, activate mage, deal damage with mage or thopter token.
5 mana version: mindcrank and thopter on table. Cast mage, activate, deal damage with thopter
7 mana version: mindcrank and gmage on table, activate both gmage abilities.
9 mana version: mindcrank on table, cast mage, activate both abilities.
So its faster if you can punch them with a thopter or the gmage rather than use both abilities, and faster if you expose the guildmage for a turn. In all cases I just assume I'm whirring for the mindcrank end of turn or have already cast it earlier. There are also other ways to kick off the combo like discard or ghost quarter, or just abrupt decaying something! It triggers whenever any card goes to their yard or whenever they lose life! It may also be another reason to put a grid in the board as that is a more reliable way to get that first point of damage in to set off the chain.
So in addition to being stony proof, it can sort of fall-from-the-sky for 5 mana (thopter token) as well. A couple loaded prisms can even make the 9 mana thing not as silly as it sounds. The downside is that it does not get past RiP/Leyline of the void and is still vulnerable to ancient grudge type things. But its surprisingly strong to just cast a guildmage out and then pass turn - if it looks clear you whir for mindcrank EoT untap and that's game
that seems like a pretty decent idea. I think I had darkslicks in as a "zero cost" dual land but as you say, the times its tapped offset the times that 1-2 life points matter, and playing more fetch/basic helps vs the fast blood moon decks. Will try it - would you go up to 3 spires then? (i play 2 atm)
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I don't have a lot of experience vs storm but I mostly expect grafdigger's cage and ethersworn canonist to get me there. If they shattering spree or shatterstorm though that's more or less unbeatable I think (kinda like when valakut hits their grudge) Muddle the Mixture is also pretty solid and then yeah whatever targeted discard you have. Definitely a match where you get high variance on collective brutality. If they t2 electromancer its quite good, t2 baral not so much, and if they just wait for 4+ mana and cast their dude and go off it feels real bad.
I've put in a bunch of games on cockatrice today with that one mindcrank 2 guildmage sideboard and I feel like there really is something there - I am not sure it shores up enough of what the deck needs but that combo is kinda legit. If they know what it does and you lay either piece out cold it gives them fits. A crank or guildmage on board and access to 5 mana means they can just lose next turn splinter twin style, and with this deck you could just be showing 3 mana, then drop land+opal and win so they kind of have to respect it even when you dont have the mana showing (not to mention prisms make it very easy to show 5 mana). I've basically gone with 4/3 thotper sword main - and board I drop 1 of each and then 1 whatever-else to make room for the 2 mage 1 crank. That's fairly low opportunity cost for adding an entire other combo (partially whirrable, stony-proof). It's best post board because they should be dropping removal spells to make room for their hate cards.
The biggest grief I have right now with this deck is feeling like its really good but fundamentally flawed, so as tight as I had the maindeck and was happy with it, fixing the post-board games needs more experimentation and everytime I find something that looks promising in SB it usually means rebuilding the maindeck to match (which takes more time). For example, if crank/guildmage is good and that warrants a return to prisms, now I kinda want heralds back in the board to leverage prisms. But now I have too much ***** to bring in between all those and 2x decay 1x pulse so I cut artifacts and now the improvise and metalcraft isnt reliable (god help me if they ancient grudge). I look for cheap ways to set off the mindcrank combo and boy ghost quarter looks nice... and hey quarter also works with surgical for those tron games... and hey then I maybe dont need any other grave hate.. and now im dropping my relic/spellbomb... and now my artifact count is off... etc etc etc. jesus lol.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I attended the 110 player Face to Face Open in Halifax yesterday with my Tezzeret Thopter deck, it was the biggest draw ever in the Maritimes with a strong pool of players. Finished 4-2-1 after 7 rounds and was 3-1-1 going into round 6 meaning 1 win away from being in the top 8 (finished in 20th spot overall). More meaningful is that I did not drop a game one in any of the 7 rounds and both losses were to players who did make the top 8. I really feel with a little more tweaking of the sideboard that I could have easily have gotten into the top 8. Rounds were:
Round 1: Jund: Game one he started with an overgrown tomb, I needle calling Lil based on the land he frowns and I know I guess right. He turn twos a grim flayer, I drop swords, he drops Lil (figure waiting for a decay or removal on needle)...Turn 3 I draw Thopter = GG. Game two he mulled to 6 and I had 2 IOK in had = GG. 2-0 round 1.
Round 2: Storm: I knew there were a few strong Storm players there so I main decked both Cage and Trinisphere. Game 1 I drop Cage turn 1. Game 2 I dropped Trinisphere turn 3, finished both quickly with combo from there. Was laughable. 2-0 again round 2.
Round 3: Ad Nauseam: Not much experience playing this deck but I was on the play and assembled thopter / swords by turn 3 and just took over from there. Game 2 and 3 he simply got off way too fast both times, bounced my spellskite with recall in game 3 to finish me when I was going infinite turns with seive next turn. He went on to finish 6-0-1 and made top 8. Very tight match but lost 1-2 round 3.
Round 4: Blue Black Fairies: Game 1 assembled combo by turn 4 not sure he knew what I was playing as I whirred in a foundry that he could have countered on his end step turn 3 then IOK his counter spell to drop swords on my turn 4. He had bitter down from there which just meant lay back and watch him die as I picked away with thopters. Game 2 I resolved a Tezz on turn 3 and activated a 5/5 Citadel followed up by a turn 5 Herald = GG. Win round 4 2-0. 3-1 and very much alive.
Round 5: Eldra Tron: I was prepared for this deck game 1 I needle Karn right away on turn 1, drop swords turn 2, he drops seer turn 3 to take my foundry but I then draw a bridge = all but over. He lays a ton of Eldrazi put I slowly pick away after getting combo assembled, it took 20+ minutes. Game 2 took a very long time he dropped Chalice for 1 early, I whir in a needle calling Karn then got a bridge out at 5 life from seer and smasher beat downs. We were both stalled for the longest time as he needled my foundry (eventually abrupt decayed his needle). I eventually got the combo as time was getting down but got greedy trying to close the game out and made a thopter end of his turn with 1 mana open as he had relic...he pops relic...I respond by sacking a 2nd bridge out and he surgicals my thopter...I should have waited. We go to time and I move to 3-1-1 still have a shot at top 8. I feel this match up REALLY favors us I simply did not anticipate the extraction and had I been less aggressive would have combo'd off to move to 4-1.
Round 6: Naya Zoo: Game 1 was hilarious. Really good guy was make it or break it for both of us but we were joking around a ton before the match begun which was great to see. He drops a mountain passes. I drop a needle / opal turn 1 naming...what do you name on a mountain lol??? I said Koth why not His turn 2 he goes...Burning Tree...Burning Tree...Burning Tree..then 2 of those standard green ones that give 2 mana...5 2/2's..we laughed what else can you do. Turn 2 I drop swords...he hits me for 10. Turn 3 I drop foundry with Opal open to make a blocker on his turn dropping me to 3. Now my turn 4 I have 5 mana open to his 4 creatures = took over with thopters chump blocking and came back to win...it was unreal. Game 2 and 3 both went the same route though I boarded in a damnation and torpor orb along with a demon but got landed screwed both games and he simply was too fast (didnt see much of my key cards). This loss ended the day but off to round 7...
Round 7: Grixis Death Shadow: I don't understand how anyone can think this is a tough match up for us. Between 2 Jars, the whirs, bridge and combo pieces they simply cannot handle all out threats. Assembled combo easily by turn 4-5 both games.
All in all I was 1 win away from top 8 and honestly felt I could have gotten there with a few sideboard tweaks. I'll post the deck list when I can but key notes:
-Had 1 Damnation mainboard and 1 side, I think 2 main and 1 side is the right choice. If our deck has time to assemble the combo we win its that simple. Bridge (I had 3 mainboard) or boardwipes gives us that time.
-Opals: I ran 3 opal and 3 pentad, will be moving to 4 and 4.
-Mainboard grafdiggers cage and trinisphere...will be dropping trinisphere but if you expect storm include it = intant win.
-I loved demon from the sideboard likely going to up him to 3 there. It's a great way to close out that game 3 surprise.
-21 lands felt perfect
Little feedback on a long day and will be back with the list soonish
-Had 1 Damnation mainboard and 1 side, I think 2 main and 1 side is the right choice. If our deck has time to assemble the combo we win its that simple. Bridge (I had 3 mainboard) or boardwipes gives us that time.
This seems a little off to me. Bridge usually stops creature decks cold, and if bridge doesnt then chump blocking with thopters does. The idea you also need damnation main seems weird. post-board sure because they will blow up your bridge and lock/blow up your combo so you need another way to buy time. But mainboard? It's going to be more dead cards in matchups where your bridges are already useless. I'm all for 1-2 damnations sideboard, but maindeck to me would have to be a serious meta-call and not default build at all.
-Opals: I ran 3 opal and 3 pentad, will be moving to 4 and 4.
Not feeling it. You'll be cutting something good to make room for this, and multiples of either card are quite weak (if not completely dead). Both are also really lousy topdecks if you're out of gas. 3 of each already feels like pushing the limit of how bad it is to draw them late vs how good it is to have them early.
-Mainboard grafdiggers cage and trinisphere...will be dropping trinisphere but if you expect storm include it = intant win.
Isn't trinisphere dead in pretty much every other matchup in Modern - and worse its symmetrical making those opal/bauble/vision draws atrocious. I cannot imagine maindecking this for any reason and I would have thought most would agree canonist is a better sideboard card (cheaper to whir, asymmetrical).
-I loved demon from the sideboard likely going to up him to 3 there. It's a great way to close out that game 3 surprise.
Certainly increases the odds you lay one down on t3/t4. I found it was awkward because you want it vs stony silence, but stony silence decks play path, and if they have any scruples they will be leaving some paths in for tezzeret -1 ability. If you found it was mostly going uncontested to win games then 3 could certainly be correct.
-21 lands felt perfect
And one note I have no disagreement with. How many colourless do you run with 21 lands?
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Congrats to all the players for such exciting showings this week-end and thanks very much for the reports! It's great to see us moving forward like this
On alternate wincons, don't you guys forget Altar of the Brood. I think it has the most inevitability of the bunch (hey, kills infinite life!), though it's a little slow. But its sleek casting cost and whirability make it really stand out IMO. Was it @The_Nobodys that brought it up first? It may deserve some more testing, if you're doing the great alternate wincon search.
Like I said previously however, ATM my go-to out of the board supplementary wincon is the 4th Tezzeret. It's hella powerful for obvious reasons, and with all the removal we board in (Decays, Pulse, Brutality, Damnation), postboard games are often more planeswalker-control type of gameplan oriented. It eludes me how I had not considered this before.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Congrats to all the players for such exciting showings this week-end and thanks very much for the reports! It's great to see us moving forward like this
On alternate wincons, don't you guys forget Altar of the Brood. I think it has the most inevitability of the bunch (hey, kills infinite life!), though it's a little slow. But its sleek casting cost and whirability make it really stand out IMO. Was it @The_Nobodys that brought it up first? It may deserve some more testing, if you're doing the great alternate wincon search.
Like I said previously however, ATM my go-to out of the board supplementary wincon is the 4th Tezzeret. It's hella powerful for obvious reasons, and with all the removal we board in (Decays, Pulse, Brutality, Damnation), postboard games are often more planeswalker-control type of gameplan oriented. It eludes me how I had not considered this before.
I dont think you're milling anybody out with altar under a stony silence or rip, which is the reason to run a secondary win condition. Without thopter tokens altar looks pretty sad sack and if you have combo the only place altar is good if vs like... ghostly prison? Opposing bridge? Stuff we could decay; or jace aot which we can needle. Time sieve also solves these if we can combo (draw deck spam tez ults til ded)
I have really not been blown away by tez vs stony. Way too often its cast, make a 5/5, they kill the 5/5 and kil tez and we're back where we started. Tezz mostly shines when behind a bridge otherwise its just so hard to defend him with a creatureless removalless deck. The 5/5 mode is good vs non interactive decks and slower combo decks to quickly clock but otherwise not great. A white deck doing t2 stony will get to cast a body t3 before we lay tez - now we can make a 5/5 and pray they dont have path or plus one and draw something useless under stony or maybe a bridge. Bridge will render the 5/5 thing useless again but makes the ult a plausible plan. Its hard to deal 20 with stony silence though - ten artifacts is no joke.
So yeah tezz ult is still a way to win games. The 5/5 is usually risky. A full playset plus damnations and pulses etc could make for brutally slow hands.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
@BadMcFadden my thoughts on choices for the day were:
Damnation - IMO Naya Zoo gets down way too fast to handle with 3 bridges and 1 damnation main, 1 artifact removal card for them + atarka command = good game for us. Eldra Tron is the same, seer out the bridge then reality smasher = good game. Even vs blue black fairies which I won I would have felt way more comfortable with 2 main damnations...I can just swap out that Trinisphere haha
Opals: A lotus petal to speed things up even more and get bridge faster is not a bad thing imo. Does it make for a bad top deck later? Yes, but if we're late game then I like the odds of winning anyhow. Both my losses were decided in turns 2-4 where a 2nd Opal would have helped.
Trinisphere: This was a meta call and made my round 2 a very easy 2-0. As well a Storm player took the 110 player tournament so had I beaten Naya Zoo I could have faced him top 8 which then gave me 2 cards main board to cripple him had we met. For THIS DAY I would have kept it in all day long, kind of like Torpor Orb if you expect soul sisters, merfolk, combo, tron etc...
Demon: I play zero creatures game 1 and 2 which by game 3 honestly most players are taking out their paths for more hate. I like my odds with IOK to grab what troubles demon. He just seemed really solid.
Lands: I ran 1 Academy ruins, 1 Inventors Fair and 2 Darksteel. Also had 4 glimmervoids which imo is a must.
Architect is cute but seems strictly worse than sieve or ironworks. You need combo for it to do anything. It turns on all their removal. It cannot be tutored with whir.
Sieve really covers off all possible blocks if the combo is online. Between infinite tezz and liliana ults and drawing your deck they will die. What is of interest are alt win cons that get through gy and artifact hate. Herald and tezzeret are great for bypassing all of the hate cards but they are still relatively slow and vulnerable.
And again this isnt just academic - the combo was nuts in extended because it was complimented by hexmage dark depths combo - an entirely different angle of attack. Tezz and herald are good but they are nowhere near as vicious as hexdepths. We really want something fast to punish opponents for wasting turns on stony silences and ancient grudges
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
So I wanted to post this earlier but am just now finding the time. Over the weekend I attended a PPTQ with about 70 players. I'm bad with posting deck lists to this site but I basically ran turbo tezz (Mishra's Bauble, 3 Opal 3 Pentad 2 IoK 2 Thoughtseize 2 CoBrutality). I finished 4th going 5-1-1 into top 8. In top 8 I won the first match to 4 color humans then lost my second match to UW control finishing the night at 6-2-1.
Overall I'm very happy with my list(When i'm off work I'll try to edit it in here). The only real question was if Sieve should've had a spot. The big problem was the side. I'd really like to go in depth on it as I felt it really held me back in the event.
The sideboard is as follows:
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Ghirapur Aether Grid
1x Damnation
1x Spellskite
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Herald of Anguish
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Time Sieve
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Witchbane Orb
The Abrupt Decay/Pulse package is basically never leaving. I wouldn't of had a chance against Stony Silence without that. Flaying Tendrils and Damnation felt awful all night. I'll go into matches a bit but basically every aggro match-up I wanted to find bridge and protect it, Tendrils was rarely enough to dent a board state. I think I'll play around with switching these to Fatal Push. Most times if I sided into a push it would've bought me enough time to hide under Bridge, rather than a wrath sitting in hand.
Ghirapur + Time Sieve was definitely wrong. They seem to loosely fit the same role and I can tutor one. Aether Grid is likely coming out. It mostly was there to be able to do something against SS but I feel prepared for that now. I'll try Sieve in the main, I just hate the idea of drawing it in a fast matchup. Spellskite was useful but hard to determine if there was value in siding it in. It was my replacement for Padeem, as I think she's awesome but without a tutor can't be relied on. Ethersworn Canonist and Witchbane Orb won't come out. The Storm match was probably the easiest played due to them. Herald, Grafdiggers and Needle are all pretty standard, but Chalice was iffy. There's been enough discussion on the card where I really just need to decide if I want it there or not.
Going over the match-ups very quickly, the first game was Jeskai Control.
Ended 0-0-1
The draw here was frustrating. Because my opponent (Very nice guy) had no artifact removal game one Ensnaring Bridge got there. He didn't have enough burn in hand. Game 2 he picked up because of awesome Spell Queller Tempo. Game 3 went long and I couldn't draw a threat to save my life. I had a bridge and Orb out to where I just needed to find a kill to wrap up the game. Herald put in work but the 2nd half of thopter sword came on turn 5 and we ended there.
Next was Affinity and this was a quick 2-0. Opponent was a good player but maybe hadn't been on Affinity long. Played a Master of Etherium that got him well over bridge and game 2 didn't find Ancient Grudge.
Storm went very well with another 2-0 due to Canonist. He managed to bounce her but Whirring in a Orb got there.
Lost to Burn, not much to say here. Didn't find anything to help myself until he had 3 Eidolons out...
Running out of time but the other games were a win to Elves and Valakut. In top 8 Humans don't line up well with Bridge but UW Control is a tough one.
Anyway I'll continue to rock the deck as always but I thought I'd share that! I'm gonna be working hard to perfect my sideboard over the coming weeks.
@stu20, I really like leaving IOK in with Jund as I know I'm going to take a valuable piece from them (ideally pulse or decay) but aside from that I think seeing their hand is crucial to dictate my plays. If he has pulse and decay I ditch one the choose what he's likely going to destroy first, if he has creatures I'll lay foundry followed by bridge to by more time. No removal then I'll lay foundry to start thopters. Does he have Lil? If so then I may try to hang on to an extra land...I LOVE getting that information to dictate my turns.
Overall I'm very happy with my list(When i'm off work I'll try to edit it in here). The only real question was if Sieve should've had a spot. The big problem was the side. I'd really like to go in depth on it as I felt it really held me back in the event.
The sideboard is as follows:
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Ghirapur Aether Grid
1x Damnation
1x Spellskite
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Herald of Anguish
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Time Sieve
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Witchbane Orb
The Abrupt Decay/Pulse package is basically never leaving. I wouldn't of had a chance against Stony Silence without that. Flaying Tendrils and Damnation felt awful all night. I'll go into matches a bit but basically every aggro match-up I wanted to find bridge and protect it, Tendrils was rarely enough to dent a board state. I think I'll play around with switching these to Fatal Push. Most times if I sided into a push it would've bought me enough time to hide under Bridge, rather than a wrath sitting in hand.
Ghirapur + Time Sieve was definitely wrong. They seem to loosely fit the same role and I can tutor one. Aether Grid is likely coming out. It mostly was there to be able to do something against SS but I feel prepared for that now. I'll try Sieve in the main, I just hate the idea of drawing it in a fast matchup. Spellskite was useful but hard to determine if there was value in siding it in. It was my replacement for Padeem, as I think she's awesome but without a tutor can't be relied on. Ethersworn Canonist and Witchbane Orb won't come out. The Storm match was probably the easiest played due to them. Herald, Grafdiggers and Needle are all pretty standard, but Chalice was iffy. There's been enough discussion on the card where I really just need to decide if I want it there or not.
The goldfish post today was the first time I have seen time sieve in a sideboard, now I see you did it too. What is the logic here? The card's only purpose is to steal games against otherwise unwinnable matchups. The highest chance of success for that is game 1 before you have to fight a mountain of hate just to put the thopter/sword online. If anything I could understand frequently boarding it out. But putting it in the board is pretty baffling to me.
I have often thought about push in the side - if you try it let us know how it goes. I used to think it was perfect for the deck between 1cmc (castable off talisman t2) and all our revolt enablers: bauble fetch foundry quarter. I was always skeptical that tendrils would do enough to warrant the slot so not surprised by that. Damnation though I have rarely every regretted drawing in g2/g3. If I've brought it in it won't be a dead card, and if I'm dead before I cast it then it didnt likely matter, and if I'm losing and I draw it that's a massive stabilizer. Surprised you would have a bad experience with it out of the board.
Grid yes I agree. Not worth stretching the manabase when we have other options to fight stony silence with. Maybe I had horrid luck but I kept drawing it and then losing my red source to stony, or casting it when they put a t0 leyline of sanctity, or casting it after they ancient grudged two artifacts away and I couldn't ping anything.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I can see the logic behind that but I'm still firmly in the camp that the card is win-more. I'm not trying to convince anyone where to put there Sieve but if I had opened with the card on my Affinity, Humans, Storm or Elves games I would have lost.
I will be trying out Push as it's hard to rely on 1 Damnation and 2 seems to be raising the curve above where I want it.
Another thing worth input is how to prepare for hard control matches. Heavily considered putting countersquall back in but I think I'll try out Dispel for the next large event.
Caustic - I mean okay, but 1) how good is drawing your second copy of thopter foundry in those matches? or second copy of tezzeret? If your margin is so slim that one dead-ish two mana card costs you the game I don't think that's the case you want to point out for why to play or not play it. And I can understand thinking its a win-more card, but then what is it doing in the sideboard? For situations where you need to win-more?
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
It's terrible, that's why I don't run a play-sets of the most important cards in my deck haha. And I think it's clear that it's win-more in the main because most match-ups don't require it. I want it when my 60 has no game against what I'm sitting across from. Anyway like I said, not trying to convince anyone on whether or not to run the card, I was considering putting it in the main. I'm more concerned with nailing down a good 15 well suited for the meta as I think there's too many bad match-ups to not really focus on that.
Hi guys, I got the decklist featured in instant deck tech my Seth of MTGGoldfish, after writing to Seth and asking if he would, so that's pretty sweet
I wanted to say that I looked at @Molz7 video on page 51 and mostly agree with him. So this is the list I'm running right now and took to a PPTQ on Sunday:
I went 4-2 in the 51-man PPTQ needing 13 points to top 8, but I was extremely happy as my only 2 match losses saw me mulligan to 5, keeping weak 5s and losing that way. Ever match where I had keepable hands I won. I beat Grixis shadow, eldrazi tron, abzan midrange, and tribal flames Death's Shadow. I lost to burn and and GB elves. In general I feel I got lucky against tron (had time sieve and combo g2-3, and extremely unlucky in both my losses. I've also played 1 competitive league with this version and went 4-1, only losing to poor sideboarding against affinity ( a usually near-unlosbale matchup).
Some points I'd like to make:
I used to feel like we needed to get lucky vs Grixis shadow (other variants were always fine), but removing herald and the conflict between wanting to cut prisms/opals and bring in heralds is a big plus. Chalice as an alternate sb card is a big deal, as the deck cant beat chalice on 1. Basically, we're left with every card being very impactful in the matchup and with all of their cantrips, redundant fatties, etc. we just have way more cards that matter, and it now feels very good
I generally only struggle against tron variants now. While eldrazi torn is more winnable, it seems like we need them to stumble to win, and need time sieve, but we beat all the other tier 1 decks so I'm ok with this.
Is chalice just for burn, storm, DS? It seems kinda lacklustre against affinity to me as we want all our 0 drop to stay in vs them. Any thoughts?
I like Liliana. It is great with bridge g1, good in grindy matchups, good against shadow, and just helps with yet another alternate win-con which some people seem to want.
I feel like my manabase makes UW control easy. without glimmervoids/spire ghost quarter wrecks the decay plan. As far as I see it the damage from spire comes up more than the downside of glimmervoid, but maybe that's just me. I find we have more keepable hands with glimmervoid and it helps the burn matchup stay favourable. It hurts the shadow matchup but I still feel safe there with the sb changes aforementioned.
That's all that comes to mind now. I am really liking the deck and expect a lot from my remaining PPTQs. I came 2nd and 3rd in two other PPTQs on Grixis control, so the fact that I'm switching to this deck hopefully shows how pumped I am for it.
I am happy to talk sideboards, gameplay, etc. with any one if they're up for it. I'm based in Australia so will be on at weird times for you lot I imagine.
So I've not tested this yet but I've been wracking my mind for a SB card that can actually deal with tron. Everything we have in the cardpool is too slow and my attempt at countering everything they play fails because we need to tap out to pressure them in a significant way.
What about one or two copies of
Commandeer? If we grab a t3 Karn with it that is game over, right? Next turn hit a land and still have Karn??
I think with serums/tezzes/whirs/foundries we would have enough blue to have the requisite pitch cards.
Just wondering if anyone's ever tried it.
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I have considered ratchet bomb before for that exact reason (being whirrable), but my experience with spellbomb/relic kind of shows that we do not whir for "occasionally value" cards in game one. It's pretty much always better to get a combo piece or a bridge. Also, I don't think there are many scenarios where whirring for a ratchet bomb g1 is going to solve a problem fast enough to matter.
You can't tutor the explosives, but they have surprise value (Cast and pop), can immediately take out CMC 2-3- and even 4, and can be dropped for 0 if you just need the opal/whir/bridge value. For example in one game today I 4-for-1d elves turn 3 with explosives. Christmasland yes, but if I had cast ratchet bomb t2 he would not have extended into 2 more one drops on his turn. Versus bloom he tried to stabilize with an azusa vs tez at 9 life. I was able to ghetto it up with a 3 point explosives and kill azusa then make another 5/5 and swing for lethal. Niche yes, but those options with explosives are what impress. I don't think bomb has those sort of random situational upsides (okay, we could tick it up to 7 to kill elesh norn or 8 to kill platinum emperion)
I did just get to live the dream of mindcranking a living end opponent out. We were having a staredown and he finally taps low to suspend living end, so I whir for crank, untap cast duskmantle activate and swing with a beast token (he had killed a foundry earlier) gg. I actually also ridiculously had 9 mana available too thanks to a loaded pentad prism and an opal with opal in hand so could have combod off without attacking. The mindcrank scenarios kind of look like this:
3 mana version: mindcrank and gmage on table, activate mage, deal damage with mage or thopter token.
5 mana version: mindcrank and thopter on table. Cast mage, activate, deal damage with thopter
7 mana version: mindcrank and gmage on table, activate both gmage abilities.
9 mana version: mindcrank on table, cast mage, activate both abilities.
So its faster if you can punch them with a thopter or the gmage rather than use both abilities, and faster if you expose the guildmage for a turn. In all cases I just assume I'm whirring for the mindcrank end of turn or have already cast it earlier. There are also other ways to kick off the combo like discard or ghost quarter, or just abrupt decaying something! It triggers whenever any card goes to their yard or whenever they lose life! It may also be another reason to put a grid in the board as that is a more reliable way to get that first point of damage in to set off the chain.
So in addition to being stony proof, it can sort of fall-from-the-sky for 5 mana (thopter token) as well. A couple loaded prisms can even make the 9 mana thing not as silly as it sounds. The downside is that it does not get past RiP/Leyline of the void and is still vulnerable to ancient grudge type things. But its surprisingly strong to just cast a guildmage out and then pass turn - if it looks clear you whir for mindcrank EoT untap and that's game
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I've put in a bunch of games on cockatrice today with that one mindcrank 2 guildmage sideboard and I feel like there really is something there - I am not sure it shores up enough of what the deck needs but that combo is kinda legit. If they know what it does and you lay either piece out cold it gives them fits. A crank or guildmage on board and access to 5 mana means they can just lose next turn splinter twin style, and with this deck you could just be showing 3 mana, then drop land+opal and win so they kind of have to respect it even when you dont have the mana showing (not to mention prisms make it very easy to show 5 mana). I've basically gone with 4/3 thotper sword main - and board I drop 1 of each and then 1 whatever-else to make room for the 2 mage 1 crank. That's fairly low opportunity cost for adding an entire other combo (partially whirrable, stony-proof). It's best post board because they should be dropping removal spells to make room for their hate cards.
The biggest grief I have right now with this deck is feeling like its really good but fundamentally flawed, so as tight as I had the maindeck and was happy with it, fixing the post-board games needs more experimentation and everytime I find something that looks promising in SB it usually means rebuilding the maindeck to match (which takes more time). For example, if crank/guildmage is good and that warrants a return to prisms, now I kinda want heralds back in the board to leverage prisms. But now I have too much ***** to bring in between all those and 2x decay 1x pulse so I cut artifacts and now the improvise and metalcraft isnt reliable (god help me if they ancient grudge). I look for cheap ways to set off the mindcrank combo and boy ghost quarter looks nice... and hey quarter also works with surgical for those tron games... and hey then I maybe dont need any other grave hate.. and now im dropping my relic/spellbomb... and now my artifact count is off... etc etc etc. jesus lol.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Round 1: Jund: Game one he started with an overgrown tomb, I needle calling Lil based on the land he frowns and I know I guess right. He turn twos a grim flayer, I drop swords, he drops Lil (figure waiting for a decay or removal on needle)...Turn 3 I draw Thopter = GG. Game two he mulled to 6 and I had 2 IOK in had = GG. 2-0 round 1.
Round 2: Storm: I knew there were a few strong Storm players there so I main decked both Cage and Trinisphere. Game 1 I drop Cage turn 1. Game 2 I dropped Trinisphere turn 3, finished both quickly with combo from there. Was laughable. 2-0 again round 2.
Round 3: Ad Nauseam: Not much experience playing this deck but I was on the play and assembled thopter / swords by turn 3 and just took over from there. Game 2 and 3 he simply got off way too fast both times, bounced my spellskite with recall in game 3 to finish me when I was going infinite turns with seive next turn. He went on to finish 6-0-1 and made top 8. Very tight match but lost 1-2 round 3.
Round 4: Blue Black Fairies: Game 1 assembled combo by turn 4 not sure he knew what I was playing as I whirred in a foundry that he could have countered on his end step turn 3 then IOK his counter spell to drop swords on my turn 4. He had bitter down from there which just meant lay back and watch him die as I picked away with thopters. Game 2 I resolved a Tezz on turn 3 and activated a 5/5 Citadel followed up by a turn 5 Herald = GG. Win round 4 2-0. 3-1 and very much alive.
Round 5: Eldra Tron: I was prepared for this deck game 1 I needle Karn right away on turn 1, drop swords turn 2, he drops seer turn 3 to take my foundry but I then draw a bridge = all but over. He lays a ton of Eldrazi put I slowly pick away after getting combo assembled, it took 20+ minutes. Game 2 took a very long time he dropped Chalice for 1 early, I whir in a needle calling Karn then got a bridge out at 5 life from seer and smasher beat downs. We were both stalled for the longest time as he needled my foundry (eventually abrupt decayed his needle). I eventually got the combo as time was getting down but got greedy trying to close the game out and made a thopter end of his turn with 1 mana open as he had relic...he pops relic...I respond by sacking a 2nd bridge out and he surgicals my thopter...I should have waited. We go to time and I move to 3-1-1 still have a shot at top 8. I feel this match up REALLY favors us I simply did not anticipate the extraction and had I been less aggressive would have combo'd off to move to 4-1.
Round 6: Naya Zoo: Game 1 was hilarious. Really good guy was make it or break it for both of us but we were joking around a ton before the match begun which was great to see. He drops a mountain passes. I drop a needle / opal turn 1 naming...what do you name on a mountain lol??? I said Koth why not
Round 7: Grixis Death Shadow: I don't understand how anyone can think this is a tough match up for us. Between 2 Jars, the whirs, bridge and combo pieces they simply cannot handle all out threats. Assembled combo easily by turn 4-5 both games.
All in all I was 1 win away from top 8 and honestly felt I could have gotten there with a few sideboard tweaks. I'll post the deck list when I can but key notes:
-Had 1 Damnation mainboard and 1 side, I think 2 main and 1 side is the right choice. If our deck has time to assemble the combo we win its that simple. Bridge (I had 3 mainboard) or boardwipes gives us that time.
-Opals: I ran 3 opal and 3 pentad, will be moving to 4 and 4.
-Mainboard grafdiggers cage and trinisphere...will be dropping trinisphere but if you expect storm include it = intant win.
-I loved demon from the sideboard likely going to up him to 3 there. It's a great way to close out that game 3 surprise.
-21 lands felt perfect
Little feedback on a long day and will be back with the list soonish
This seems a little off to me. Bridge usually stops creature decks cold, and if bridge doesnt then chump blocking with thopters does. The idea you also need damnation main seems weird. post-board sure because they will blow up your bridge and lock/blow up your combo so you need another way to buy time. But mainboard? It's going to be more dead cards in matchups where your bridges are already useless. I'm all for 1-2 damnations sideboard, but maindeck to me would have to be a serious meta-call and not default build at all.
Not feeling it. You'll be cutting something good to make room for this, and multiples of either card are quite weak (if not completely dead). Both are also really lousy topdecks if you're out of gas. 3 of each already feels like pushing the limit of how bad it is to draw them late vs how good it is to have them early.
Isn't trinisphere dead in pretty much every other matchup in Modern - and worse its symmetrical making those opal/bauble/vision draws atrocious. I cannot imagine maindecking this for any reason and I would have thought most would agree canonist is a better sideboard card (cheaper to whir, asymmetrical).
Certainly increases the odds you lay one down on t3/t4. I found it was awkward because you want it vs stony silence, but stony silence decks play path, and if they have any scruples they will be leaving some paths in for tezzeret -1 ability. If you found it was mostly going uncontested to win games then 3 could certainly be correct.
And one note I have no disagreement with. How many colourless do you run with 21 lands?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
On alternate wincons, don't you guys forget Altar of the Brood. I think it has the most inevitability of the bunch (hey, kills infinite life!), though it's a little slow. But its sleek casting cost and whirability make it really stand out IMO. Was it @The_Nobodys that brought it up first? It may deserve some more testing, if you're doing the great alternate wincon search.
Like I said previously however, ATM my go-to out of the board supplementary wincon is the 4th Tezzeret. It's hella powerful for obvious reasons, and with all the removal we board in (Decays, Pulse, Brutality, Damnation), postboard games are often more planeswalker-control type of gameplan oriented. It eludes me how I had not considered this before.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I dont think you're milling anybody out with altar under a stony silence or rip, which is the reason to run a secondary win condition. Without thopter tokens altar looks pretty sad sack and if you have combo the only place altar is good if vs like... ghostly prison? Opposing bridge? Stuff we could decay; or jace aot which we can needle. Time sieve also solves these if we can combo (draw deck spam tez ults til ded)
I have really not been blown away by tez vs stony. Way too often its cast, make a 5/5, they kill the 5/5 and kil tez and we're back where we started. Tezz mostly shines when behind a bridge otherwise its just so hard to defend him with a creatureless removalless deck. The 5/5 mode is good vs non interactive decks and slower combo decks to quickly clock but otherwise not great. A white deck doing t2 stony will get to cast a body t3 before we lay tez - now we can make a 5/5 and pray they dont have path or plus one and draw something useless under stony or maybe a bridge. Bridge will render the 5/5 thing useless again but makes the ult a plausible plan. Its hard to deal 20 with stony silence though - ten artifacts is no joke.
So yeah tezz ult is still a way to win games. The 5/5 is usually risky. A full playset plus damnations and pulses etc could make for brutally slow hands.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Damnation - IMO Naya Zoo gets down way too fast to handle with 3 bridges and 1 damnation main, 1 artifact removal card for them + atarka command = good game for us. Eldra Tron is the same, seer out the bridge then reality smasher = good game. Even vs blue black fairies which I won I would have felt way more comfortable with 2 main damnations...I can just swap out that Trinisphere haha
Opals: A lotus petal to speed things up even more and get bridge faster is not a bad thing imo. Does it make for a bad top deck later? Yes, but if we're late game then I like the odds of winning anyhow. Both my losses were decided in turns 2-4 where a 2nd Opal would have helped.
Trinisphere: This was a meta call and made my round 2 a very easy 2-0. As well a Storm player took the 110 player tournament so had I beaten Naya Zoo I could have faced him top 8 which then gave me 2 cards main board to cripple him had we met. For THIS DAY I would have kept it in all day long, kind of like Torpor Orb if you expect soul sisters, merfolk, combo, tron etc...
Demon: I play zero creatures game 1 and 2 which by game 3 honestly most players are taking out their paths for more hate. I like my odds with IOK to grab what troubles demon. He just seemed really solid.
Lands: I ran 1 Academy ruins, 1 Inventors Fair and 2 Darksteel. Also had 4 glimmervoids which imo is a must.
With an opal it's a turn 3 win, or just an anthem for existing thopters. Infinite life....
Seems like it could be something
EDIT: too cute.
Sieve really covers off all possible blocks if the combo is online. Between infinite tezz and liliana ults and drawing your deck they will die. What is of interest are alt win cons that get through gy and artifact hate. Herald and tezzeret are great for bypassing all of the hate cards but they are still relatively slow and vulnerable.
And again this isnt just academic - the combo was nuts in extended because it was complimented by hexmage dark depths combo - an entirely different angle of attack. Tezz and herald are good but they are nowhere near as vicious as hexdepths. We really want something fast to punish opponents for wasting turns on stony silences and ancient grudges
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
Overall I'm very happy with my list(When i'm off work I'll try to edit it in here). The only real question was if Sieve should've had a spot. The big problem was the side. I'd really like to go in depth on it as I felt it really held me back in the event.
The sideboard is as follows:
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Ghirapur Aether Grid
1x Damnation
1x Spellskite
1x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Herald of Anguish
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Time Sieve
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Witchbane Orb
The Abrupt Decay/Pulse package is basically never leaving. I wouldn't of had a chance against Stony Silence without that. Flaying Tendrils and Damnation felt awful all night. I'll go into matches a bit but basically every aggro match-up I wanted to find bridge and protect it, Tendrils was rarely enough to dent a board state. I think I'll play around with switching these to Fatal Push. Most times if I sided into a push it would've bought me enough time to hide under Bridge, rather than a wrath sitting in hand.
Ghirapur + Time Sieve was definitely wrong. They seem to loosely fit the same role and I can tutor one. Aether Grid is likely coming out. It mostly was there to be able to do something against SS but I feel prepared for that now. I'll try Sieve in the main, I just hate the idea of drawing it in a fast matchup. Spellskite was useful but hard to determine if there was value in siding it in. It was my replacement for Padeem, as I think she's awesome but without a tutor can't be relied on. Ethersworn Canonist and Witchbane Orb won't come out. The Storm match was probably the easiest played due to them. Herald, Grafdiggers and Needle are all pretty standard, but Chalice was iffy. There's been enough discussion on the card where I really just need to decide if I want it there or not.
Going over the match-ups very quickly, the first game was Jeskai Control.
Ended 0-0-1
The draw here was frustrating. Because my opponent (Very nice guy) had no artifact removal game one Ensnaring Bridge got there. He didn't have enough burn in hand. Game 2 he picked up because of awesome Spell Queller Tempo. Game 3 went long and I couldn't draw a threat to save my life. I had a bridge and Orb out to where I just needed to find a kill to wrap up the game. Herald put in work but the 2nd half of thopter sword came on turn 5 and we ended there.
Next was Affinity and this was a quick 2-0. Opponent was a good player but maybe hadn't been on Affinity long. Played a Master of Etherium that got him well over bridge and game 2 didn't find Ancient Grudge.
Storm went very well with another 2-0 due to Canonist. He managed to bounce her but Whirring in a Orb got there.
Lost to Burn, not much to say here. Didn't find anything to help myself until he had 3 Eidolons out...
Running out of time but the other games were a win to Elves and Valakut. In top 8 Humans don't line up well with Bridge but UW Control is a tough one.
Anyway I'll continue to rock the deck as always but I thought I'd share that! I'm gonna be working hard to perfect my sideboard over the coming weeks.
The goldfish post today was the first time I have seen time sieve in a sideboard, now I see you did it too. What is the logic here? The card's only purpose is to steal games against otherwise unwinnable matchups. The highest chance of success for that is game 1 before you have to fight a mountain of hate just to put the thopter/sword online. If anything I could understand frequently boarding it out. But putting it in the board is pretty baffling to me.
I have often thought about push in the side - if you try it let us know how it goes. I used to think it was perfect for the deck between 1cmc (castable off talisman t2) and all our revolt enablers: bauble fetch foundry quarter. I was always skeptical that tendrils would do enough to warrant the slot so not surprised by that. Damnation though I have rarely every regretted drawing in g2/g3. If I've brought it in it won't be a dead card, and if I'm dead before I cast it then it didnt likely matter, and if I'm losing and I draw it that's a massive stabilizer. Surprised you would have a bad experience with it out of the board.
Grid yes I agree. Not worth stretching the manabase when we have other options to fight stony silence with. Maybe I had horrid luck but I kept drawing it and then losing my red source to stony, or casting it when they put a t0 leyline of sanctity, or casting it after they ancient grudged two artifacts away and I couldn't ping anything.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I will be trying out Push as it's hard to rely on 1 Damnation and 2 seems to be raising the curve above where I want it.
Another thing worth input is how to prepare for hard control matches. Heavily considered putting countersquall back in but I think I'll try out Dispel for the next large event.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I wanted to say that I looked at @Molz7 video on page 51 and mostly agree with him. So this is the list I'm running right now and took to a PPTQ on Sunday:
3 Collective Brutality
4 Serum Visions
4 Whir of Invention
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Mox Opal
4 Pentad Prism
1 Pithing Needle
3 Sword of the Meek
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Thopter Foundry
1 Welding Jar
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Glimmervoid
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins
1 Spire of Industry
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Defense Grid
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Time Sieve
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Witchbane Orb
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
I went 4-2 in the 51-man PPTQ needing 13 points to top 8, but I was extremely happy as my only 2 match losses saw me mulligan to 5, keeping weak 5s and losing that way. Ever match where I had keepable hands I won. I beat Grixis shadow, eldrazi tron, abzan midrange, and tribal flames Death's Shadow. I lost to burn and and GB elves. In general I feel I got lucky against tron (had time sieve and combo g2-3, and extremely unlucky in both my losses. I've also played 1 competitive league with this version and went 4-1, only losing to poor sideboarding against affinity ( a usually near-unlosbale matchup).
Some points I'd like to make:
That's all that comes to mind now. I am really liking the deck and expect a lot from my remaining PPTQs. I came 2nd and 3rd in two other PPTQs on Grixis control, so the fact that I'm switching to this deck hopefully shows how pumped I am for it.
I am happy to talk sideboards, gameplay, etc. with any one if they're up for it. I'm based in Australia so will be on at weird times for you lot I imagine.
What about one or two copies of
Commandeer? If we grab a t3 Karn with it that is game over, right? Next turn hit a land and still have Karn??
I think with serums/tezzes/whirs/foundries we would have enough blue to have the requisite pitch cards.
Just wondering if anyone's ever tried it.