Sidenote: i am proxying a 1x of proclamation of rebirth for consideration in the maindeck for active card advantage. The consideration of the card as a 1-of is as a recovery tactic against certain sweepers or massive quantities of spot removal
That seems terrible. The game should be over before you ever get to cast that.
I think he means casting the spell at value of 2 or more, which in some cases he is right, but I still have a feeling that suggests that proclamation could be a useful option.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I dunno about that. Do we really need a 3 cmc spell to recover a few creatures?
By that point in the game, the other dude should be in bolt/helix range already.
I think i will side with urafever on this one.
And i dont mean by the point you can get 3 mana online, but at the point you could get 2 creatures back to attack and get some value out of them returning to the field.
BTW, when they come back they will be 1/1 or 0/1, without landrops or instants to transform, so im not too convinced.
I dunno about that. Do we really need a 3 cmc spell to recover a few creatures?
By that point in the game, the other dude should be in bolt/helix range already.
I think i will side with urafever on this one.
And i dont mean by the point you can get 3 mana online, but at the point you could get 2 creatures back to attack and get some value out of them returning to the field.
BTW, when they come back they will be 1/1 or 0/1, without landrops or instants to transform, so im not too convinced.
I've used Proclamation before and it's better than it looks. Even getting back 2 is a lot of creatures for 3 mana. The thing is, you're already maxed on Bolts and Helix. This is another way to provide reach. It should at least be explored before being dismissed.
I've used Proclamation before and it's better than it looks. Even getting back 2 is a lot of creatures for 3 mana. The thing is, you're already maxed on Bolts and Helix. This is another way to provide reach. It should at least be explored before being dismissed.
What are you taking out of your deck to put in proclamation? Is that card worse than proclamation? Also what are cards are you getting back with proclamation, a 1/1 or an 0/1 that need work to become better creatures. Delver and steppe lynx aren't that good mid-late game.
As further evidence that proclamation of rebirth isn't that good, all the winning lists of the white life gain decks in the daily events don't run the card anymore. The only card worth rebirthing is serra ascendant, and you need 30 life for that card to do anything. Proclamation is just too slow and situational.
There was a pro player that said delver is the most powerful creature that can be printed. There is no other one drop in modern that has been printed that matches delver. Hes one of the only one drops that is a good top card, and always a threat in almost every situation. People just talk crap about him because hes a 50 cent common. If he was a 60$ mythic he would get the respect he deserves. If they banned delver tomarrow decks in all format would suffer, there is no replacment of delver. And he almost created tempo decks overnight.
I disagree with this. Cards like goblin guide, nimble mongoose, and wild nacatl are just flat out better one-drops. Sure, nacatl and mongoose aren't in the format, but goblin guide still has delver beat out by a long shot in terms of consistency. Delver has nothing to do with tempo, either. He's a vanilla creature with a chance to increase his p/t. If anything, he's the best aggro blue has outside merfolk, which isn't saying much.
I disagree with this. Cards like goblin guide, nimble mongoose, and wild nacatl are just flat out better one-drops. Sure, nacatl and mongoose aren't in the format, but goblin guide still has delver beat out by a long shot in terms of consistency. Delver has nothing to do with tempo, either. He's a vanilla creature with a chance to increase his p/t. If anything, he's the best aggro blue has outside merfolk, which isn't saying much.
Yes, cards that aren't legal and/or banned in modern are better than the best one drop in modern. Goblin guide isn't better, because it doesn't go into decks that are good.
Yes, cards that aren't legal and/or banned in modern are better than the best one drop in modern. Goblin guide isn't better, because it doesn't go into decks that are good.
I'd be willing to bet 4 goblin guides in place of delver would do just as good in this deck, if not, better lol.
People seem to forget a lot that goblin gives your opponent lands which fixes their draws, making them faster, something we do not want. He doesnt have evasion like delver, either, and is always in bolt range, unlike lynx, who can get really bad, if left untouched.
I brought up this discussion `cause i think they are the best one drops modern has to offer for WUR, but goblin guide is a card you get on UR delver, since they dont run white to support lynx.
People seem to forget a lot that goblin gives your opponent lands which fixes their draws, making them faster, something we do not want. He doesnt have evasion like delver, either, and is always in bolt range, unlike lynx, who can get really bad, if left untouched.
I brought up this discussion `cause i think they are the best one drops modern has to offer for WUR, but goblin guide is a card you get on UR delver, since they dont run white to support lynx.
I agree with your statements about goblin guide but i think you neglected to mention that the UR delver deck has room to run more burn that ultimately compliments guide, which i find very important
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
People seem to forget a lot that goblin gives your opponent lands which fixes their draws, making them faster, something we do not want. He doesnt have evasion like delver, either, and is always in bolt range, unlike lynx, who can get really bad, if left untouched.
Extra lands and fixing draws is hardly ever a legitimate problem, and sometimes a non-land revealed card is one worth knowing about (a counterspell, or removal, for instance). Delver doesn't have evasion on his own either, and flying is hardly what some decks would even consider evasion anyway. Both are boltable as well, which makes that irrelevant.
I'm going to have to be foolish and stubborn here and say that I still think delver is the worst card in this deck and hardly what I would consider the backbone of this deck that relies more on the power of cards like lightning bolt and remand than something as inconsistent as delver. Against other more aggressive aggro strategies he's just another blocker. Against combo and control, there are faster aggro cards that this deck would be better off with than waiting for a delver to flip. Both while playing with and against this deck, delver is usually the card I am most disappointed with (except for maybe serum visions). He might be the best blue one-drop creature in the format, but like I said, that's not saying much.
On a side note: student of warfare and figure of destiny would be other one-drops that I'd still consider quite better than delver in the format.
Extra lands and fixing draws is hardly ever a legitimate problem, and sometimes a non-land revealed card is one worth knowing about (a counterspell, or removal, for instance). Delver doesn't have evasion on his own either, and flying is hardly what some decks would even consider evasion anyway. Both are boltable as well, which makes that irrelevant.
I'm going to have to be foolish and stubborn here and say that I still think delver is the worst card in this deck and hardly what I would consider the backbone of this deck that relies more on the power of cards like lightning bolt and remand than something as inconsistent as delver. Against other more aggressive aggro strategies he's just another blocker. Against combo and control, there are faster aggro cards that this deck would be better off with than waiting for a delver to flip. Both while playing with and against this deck, delver is usually the card I am most disappointed with (except for maybe serum visions). He might be the best blue one-drop creature in the format, but like I said, that's not saying much.
On a side note: student of warfare and figure of destiny would be other one-drops that I'd still consider quite better than delver in the format.
The "I know what you're drawing" aspect to goblin guide isn't really an advantage. I could point you to any number of articles and/or posts on here about how information isn't really that important. People highly overrate the aspect of "knowing" certain things like your opponent's hand or the top of their deck. It rarely results in any real competitive advantage. If they have the nuts, it's irrelevant if you see it coming or not. If they have nothing, it's irrelevant if you see it or not. In some situations, there is a gray area where it can be useful, but knowing the top of your opponent's deck is not worth the drawback of giving them cards.
The problem is, there are urza's lands, fetchlands, and duals in this format. You're not handing them like a swamp, you're unlocking their entire hand for them sometimes.
Also, student of warfare? Really? That card is way, way too slow in this format. This is a turn three karn format with multiple infinite combos, as well as a viable storm deck. When exactly do you have time to durdle around with a student of warfare?
I disagree with this. Cards like goblin guide, nimble mongoose, and wild nacatl are just flat out better one-drops. Sure, nacatl and mongoose aren't in the format, but goblin guide still has delver beat out by a long shot in terms of consistency. Delver has nothing to do with tempo, either. He's a vanilla creature with a chance to increase his p/t. If anything, he's the best aggro blue has outside merfolk, which isn't saying much.
Where were those guys when delver was top 8ing in all formats. Steppe lynx is amazing, and so is goblin guide. They are the only two one drops I would put on delvers power level. Flying just puts delver over the top I think.
Mastodon, I'm going to go ahead and agree with you on being foolish and stubborn about this. You may not Like Delver of Secrets, but you seem to be the only one on this thread who actually thinks the card is bad. The "worst card in the deck" is in actuality the reason the deck is tier one successful. Maybe you missed it, but delver actually does win games. Lots of them.
Having played with Guide, Nacatl, Goose, Lynx, Figure, And Delver, I will agree they are all strong creatures. Guide is probably my favorite, as it certainly is fast and consistent. Nacatl is awesome when you play Naya, Lynx is great when you fetch, Figure/student are very pricey but strong lategame, and Mongoose is slow but resilient. But delver FLIES. They are all conditional on some level. At their best though, Delver is the most powerful start, hands down. If goose was a 3/3 shroud on turn 2 just as often, it might be close. If we could play Nacatl in WUR, it might be close. If goblin guide didnt lose card advantage, it would be no contest. But that's not the case.
You know which card has won me the most games in legacy RUG, especially against aggro? I'll give you one guess.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. Some people just don't like certain cards or mechanics. But your going to have a hard time time convincing this thread that our best card is actually our worst. And it won't stop us from continuing to win with Insectile Abberations.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
But your going to have a hard time time convincing this thread that our best card is actually our worst.
Yeah, I gave it my best shot.
And I am disappointed with serum visions...because it's not as good as brainstorm or ponder. I understand its the best blue draw spell the deck has in this format, but it feels really lack-luster when compared to better draw spells that you might play with more frequently in other formats. I understand that this deck still needs serum visions. God only knows how good delver will be after ponder rotates out in standard.
Also, for the record, I never said delver was a bad card. But I do still think it's the worst card in the deck, and I apologize if that makes anyone else upset.
The list seems solid to me, but 4 molten rain? Is tron such a big part of your meta? Because, sure it works on other decks, but be get better options against them. I really like the forked bolt, but right now im running electrolize over it, but the fact that i cant imprint it bothers me to no end, so i was going to try forked bolt.
And I am disappointed with serum visions...because it's not as good as brainstorm or ponder. I understand its the best blue draw spell the deck has in this format, but it feels really lack-luster when compared to better draw spells that you might play with more frequently in other formats.
You're doing it again, bro --- those cards are banned or not legal. It's irrelevant if they're better or not, because no one gets to play with them. Yes, once you've played with brainstorm, preordain, or ponder, you realize that serum visions isn't nearly as good, but we can't do anything about it. They banned those cards, so it's all we've got.
It's not that you're hurting anyone's feelings, it's just that you don't make sense. How is it possibly relevant that cards in the deck are worse than cards that are banned, not in the format, or unplayable in the deck? You need to either play with the deck more, or change up some of the key slots and see how it goes. My money is on the deck being way, way worse with goblin guide in over delver, but you can try it if you want.
That seems terrible. The game should be over before you ever get to cast that.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Before you get to 3 mana?
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
By that point in the game, the other dude should be in bolt/helix range already.
I think i will side with urafever on this one.
And i dont mean by the point you can get 3 mana online, but at the point you could get 2 creatures back to attack and get some value out of them returning to the field.
BTW, when they come back they will be 1/1 or 0/1, without landrops or instants to transform, so im not too convinced.
edit: just saw that someone else mentioned it too.
R// Thalia Zoo
G// Exalted Face Crush
R/ Vampires
Coming soon G// Zombie Smallpox
I've used Proclamation before and it's better than it looks. Even getting back 2 is a lot of creatures for 3 mana. The thing is, you're already maxed on Bolts and Helix. This is another way to provide reach. It should at least be explored before being dismissed.
What are you taking out of your deck to put in proclamation? Is that card worse than proclamation? Also what are cards are you getting back with proclamation, a 1/1 or an 0/1 that need work to become better creatures. Delver and steppe lynx aren't that good mid-late game.
As further evidence that proclamation of rebirth isn't that good, all the winning lists of the white life gain decks in the daily events don't run the card anymore. The only card worth rebirthing is serra ascendant, and you need 30 life for that card to do anything. Proclamation is just too slow and situational.
I disagree with this. Cards like goblin guide, nimble mongoose, and wild nacatl are just flat out better one-drops. Sure, nacatl and mongoose aren't in the format, but goblin guide still has delver beat out by a long shot in terms of consistency. Delver has nothing to do with tempo, either. He's a vanilla creature with a chance to increase his p/t. If anything, he's the best aggro blue has outside merfolk, which isn't saying much.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Yes, cards that aren't legal and/or banned in modern are better than the best one drop in modern. Goblin guide isn't better, because it doesn't go into decks that are good.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
I'd be willing to bet 4 goblin guides in place of delver would do just as good in this deck, if not, better lol.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
People seem to forget a lot that goblin gives your opponent lands which fixes their draws, making them faster, something we do not want. He doesnt have evasion like delver, either, and is always in bolt range, unlike lynx, who can get really bad, if left untouched.
I brought up this discussion `cause i think they are the best one drops modern has to offer for WUR, but goblin guide is a card you get on UR delver, since they dont run white to support lynx.
I agree with your statements about goblin guide but i think you neglected to mention that the UR delver deck has room to run more burn that ultimately compliments guide, which i find very important
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Extra lands and fixing draws is hardly ever a legitimate problem, and sometimes a non-land revealed card is one worth knowing about (a counterspell, or removal, for instance). Delver doesn't have evasion on his own either, and flying is hardly what some decks would even consider evasion anyway. Both are boltable as well, which makes that irrelevant.
I'm going to have to be foolish and stubborn here and say that I still think delver is the worst card in this deck and hardly what I would consider the backbone of this deck that relies more on the power of cards like lightning bolt and remand than something as inconsistent as delver. Against other more aggressive aggro strategies he's just another blocker. Against combo and control, there are faster aggro cards that this deck would be better off with than waiting for a delver to flip. Both while playing with and against this deck, delver is usually the card I am most disappointed with (except for maybe serum visions). He might be the best blue one-drop creature in the format, but like I said, that's not saying much.
On a side note: student of warfare and figure of destiny would be other one-drops that I'd still consider quite better than delver in the format.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
The "I know what you're drawing" aspect to goblin guide isn't really an advantage. I could point you to any number of articles and/or posts on here about how information isn't really that important. People highly overrate the aspect of "knowing" certain things like your opponent's hand or the top of their deck. It rarely results in any real competitive advantage. If they have the nuts, it's irrelevant if you see it coming or not. If they have nothing, it's irrelevant if you see it or not. In some situations, there is a gray area where it can be useful, but knowing the top of your opponent's deck is not worth the drawback of giving them cards.
The problem is, there are urza's lands, fetchlands, and duals in this format. You're not handing them like a swamp, you're unlocking their entire hand for them sometimes.
Also, student of warfare? Really? That card is way, way too slow in this format. This is a turn three karn format with multiple infinite combos, as well as a viable storm deck. When exactly do you have time to durdle around with a student of warfare?
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Where were those guys when delver was top 8ing in all formats. Steppe lynx is amazing, and so is goblin guide. They are the only two one drops I would put on delvers power level. Flying just puts delver over the top I think.
Having played with Guide, Nacatl, Goose, Lynx, Figure, And Delver, I will agree they are all strong creatures. Guide is probably my favorite, as it certainly is fast and consistent. Nacatl is awesome when you play Naya, Lynx is great when you fetch, Figure/student are very pricey but strong lategame, and Mongoose is slow but resilient. But delver FLIES. They are all conditional on some level. At their best though, Delver is the most powerful start, hands down. If goose was a 3/3 shroud on turn 2 just as often, it might be close. If we could play Nacatl in WUR, it might be close. If goblin guide didnt lose card advantage, it would be no contest. But that's not the case.
You know which card has won me the most games in legacy RUG, especially against aggro? I'll give you one guess.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that. Some people just don't like certain cards or mechanics. But your going to have a hard time time convincing this thread that our best card is actually our worst. And it won't stop us from continuing to win with Insectile Abberations.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Yeah, I gave it my best shot.
And I am disappointed with serum visions...because it's not as good as brainstorm or ponder. I understand its the best blue draw spell the deck has in this format, but it feels really lack-luster when compared to better draw spells that you might play with more frequently in other formats. I understand that this deck still needs serum visions. God only knows how good delver will be after ponder rotates out in standard.
Also, for the record, I never said delver was a bad card. But I do still think it's the worst card in the deck, and I apologize if that makes anyone else upset.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
You're doing it again, bro --- those cards are banned or not legal. It's irrelevant if they're better or not, because no one gets to play with them. Yes, once you've played with brainstorm, preordain, or ponder, you realize that serum visions isn't nearly as good, but we can't do anything about it. They banned those cards, so it's all we've got.
It's not that you're hurting anyone's feelings, it's just that you don't make sense. How is it possibly relevant that cards in the deck are worse than cards that are banned, not in the format, or unplayable in the deck? You need to either play with the deck more, or change up some of the key slots and see how it goes. My money is on the deck being way, way worse with goblin guide in over delver, but you can try it if you want.
*DCI Rules Advisor*