I totally agree... Thing in the Ice is the creature to be beaten in the Phoenix deck and, for me, it's much more important in the deck than Phoenix itself. When you add Thing in the Oce + Arclight Phoenix this deck is simply turned into a bomb. The deck is not really a creature deck, it's a combo one.
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Once there were at least 5 players running phoenix at my LGS, I started playing Surgicals; 1 MB and 2 SB have been treating me well overall, however, TITI is still a problem as it's fairly difficult to get one in the yard.
I never understood having cards like Deglamer and Unravel in the sideboard. What is it mainly going after. I understand that you could target your own things but can't see 4 sideboard slots just for that. Can anyone give reasoning for it?
The actual meta is full of Surgical Extraction.. even Tron is using it nowadays. We really need to destroy artifacts and enchantments... and, at the same time, protect our most valuable permanents from destruction: auras. These cards can do both.
Deglamer and Unravel the Aether are different cards with the same effect. It's useful to use one on the 2nd game.. and the other on the 3rd game, for example. Having 2 copies of each gives us flexibility.
It's nice, but I don't think it's a good idea to have 4 cards with this same effect. It's too much.
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I have played Bogles quite a while ago and now I wanted to bring the deck out again and play some modern. Thing is I haven't been to a Modern Tournament for maybe a year or so and the metagame has changed drastically since then. There are so many new decks and that means I don't know how to sideboard, I hope you can help me with that.
It's definitely nice to see that this thread still has some traction to it.
I never understood having cards like Deglamer and Unravel in the sideboard. What is it mainly going after. I understand that you could target your own things but can't see 4 sideboard slots just for that. Can anyone give reasoning for it?
As I didn't build the deck and am quite out of the loop I can only guess that the 4 Deglamer/Unravel are against Tron and the artifact Prison decks (Lantern and Lanternless or Whir Prison or whatever you wanna call it) decks. Although I don't think it's needed as much against Tron. Against Lantern it helps to get rid of Ensnaring Bridge while getting around Welding Jar, as a little bonus it messes with your opponent if you play Deglamer/Unravel in response to them activating Bell/Pyxis/Codex Shredder on themselves.
Case Johnson made third place out of 988, so there is something to ther 4 Deglamer/Unravel.
Regarding the Lantern matchup I wanted to ask what your experiences with that matchup are and how everyone sideboards against those. (Or maybe you can link me to a guide that's up to date? I couldn't find one using google.) I also just found out that there is also this Prison deck with Whir of Invention, wich doesn't play any of the mill cards, is that more popular now than classic Lantern?
So there are alot of cards I want to board against those:
-Gaddock Teeg instead of Spiritdancers, against Engineered Explosives and Chalice.
-Stony Silence, is that needed against Lantern? I think it's more useful against Whir Prison.
-Deglamer against both of those decks.
-Leyline of Sanctity against the Lantern decks that play discard.
Cards to take out are probably Path to Exile and Spirit Mantle, although the Whir deck has Spellskites again, wich makes Path useful again. There are just so many cards, I am not sure. And it looks like the matchup isn't that great? They have so many cards that just stop Bogles outright (but that is more a problem of Modern in general imho, sideboard cards are way too powerful).
Against the Izzet Phoenix deck, what do you board? Path's are needed. Is Rest in Peace super important? Should I board Deglamer/Unravel, just to be able to maybe get rid of Blood Moon?
Do you have any more important info regarding the general metagame and match ups?
Gaddock Teeg comes in against both because it shuts down Whir. This could strand cards in hand, allowing a few small creatures (like a Dryad Arbor) to attack through Bridge.
Stony Silence is way better against Lantern. It shuts down what they are trying to accomplish. It is pretty devastating against them. Against Whir Prison, Stony Silence does come in (for Spellskites, Welding Jar, and Engineered Explosives), but it has fewer applications. They can win without it. Actually both decks can win without it, mostly by using Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas or Ghirapur Aether Grid if they have it.
I guess Deglamer and Unravel are mostly used in response to Welding Jar. That actually seems pretty good, but I'm also scared that they can just find it later on with Whir of Invention, whereas killing it and having Rest in Peace prevents Academy Ruins bringing it back.
Leyline of Sanctity definitely comes in vs. Lantern and not Whir. It also prevent Codex Shredder, although Pyxis and Ghoulcaller's Bell don't target.
I would say against Phoenix, Rest in Peace is NOT needed. We just need to focus on the Thing in the Ice and trying to get lifelink or being able to race whatever else they have. That card is the bane of Bogles (and most decks in the format). I think we can beat 1-2 Phoenixes if they are not too early and we get early Lifelink.
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Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
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Thanks, seems my thinking is mostly right so far. I still try to get a grasp of the current metagame. Could someone tell wich are the best and worst match ups for Bogles right now?
Best would be Burn, Dredge, Hollow One if anyone plays that, UR Phoenix if you dodge or kill Thing in the Ice, Titanshift and Jeskai if anyone plays those, I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.
Worst would be Infect, Amulet, Company decks, discard decks if you don't get Leyline or have to mulligan to non functional hands, UR Phoenix if their Thing lives. I'm probably forgetting some here too.
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Best would be Burn, Dredge, Hollow One if anyone plays that, UR Phoenix if you dodge or kill Thing in the Ice, Titanshift and Jeskai if anyone plays those, I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.
Worst would be Infect, Amulet, Company decks, discard decks if you don't get Leyline or have to mulligan to non functional hands, UR Phoenix if their Thing lives. I'm probably forgetting some here too.
You forgot Tron... that, for me, is terrible, the worst match. When Karn Liberated or Ugin finally come to the battlefield... you probably will lose the game :\
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Best would be Burn, Dredge, Hollow One if anyone plays that, UR Phoenix if you dodge or kill Thing in the Ice, Titanshift and Jeskai if anyone plays those, I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.
Worst would be Infect, Amulet, Company decks, discard decks if you don't get Leyline or have to mulligan to non functional hands, UR Phoenix if their Thing lives. I'm probably forgetting some here too.
You forgot Tron... that, for me, is terrible, the worst match. When Karn Liberated or Ugin finally come to the battlefield... you probably will lose the game :\
Simply put, we cannot beat Ugin. That being said, if we have the nuts, super quick hand, we can beat them if they stumble on assembling Tron. I feel it's only 40/60 for us. Prison decks are often around 20% probably.
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I never understood having cards like Deglamer and Unravel in the sideboard. What is it mainly going after. I understand that you could target your own things but can't see 4 sideboard slots just for that. Can anyone give reasoning for it?
It's normal to have 2-4 artifact/enchantment removal in the sideboard as they're useful against a multitude of decks. Affinity, Tron, Infect, Lantern, Whir Prison, and various decks where you can expect some problematic cards after sideboard (like Blood Moon or Worship).
The typical choices for this slot includes Nature's Claim, Natural State and Seal of Priomordium, all of which comes with advantages and disadvantages. The choice of Deglamer and Unravel is specifically targeted against the Whir Prison deck as neither Chalice of the Void nor Welding Jar can stop it. Whether this is correct when Whir Prison is just a small percentage of the meta is very doubtful, but there's little doubt that's his reason.
Whether or not you want Rest in Peace against Izzet Phoenix depends a lot on how many Snapcaster Mage, Pteramander and Pyromancer Ascension they run. They're not worth bringing in solely because of Phoenix, but I often feel like it's still worth it since we can spare some slots and we don't really have much else to bring in.
Regarding Tron, it can be a bit tough but it's not so awful. We do have a fast clock and they won't have a turn 4 Ugin all that often while a turn 3 Karn/Wurmcoil can often be beaten. Post sideboard we have a lot of strong cards that can lock them down quite well. More problematic than you would expect at first glance is Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger as it gets around all of our hate and exiles it. It's not fast but our sideboard cards often slow us down too, so they will have time for it often.
Sometimes in Games 2 and/or 3, you just play a Stony Silence and a Gaddock Teeg and they literally play nothing of consequence while trying to draw to Nature's Claim. A solid amount of games against Tron are non matches - either us with no permanents in play or them with 3 Stars that can't be cracked and a hand of 7 cards.
Whir Prison is an insane deck. I have been testing it myself, although I haven't played it in tournament play yet. I feel that it's okay to hedge against them a bit if it doesn't hurt other matchups too badly. I think that even when hedging, there is only a small window for us to get the win (poor draws by them, the nuts by us, mulligans, etc.).
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I never understood having cards like Deglamer and Unravel in the sideboard. What is it mainly going after. I understand that you could target your own things but can't see 4 sideboard slots just for that. Can anyone give reasoning for it?
It's normal to have 2-4 artifact/enchantment removal in the sideboard as they're useful against a multitude of decks. Affinity, Tron, Infect, Lantern, Whir Prison, and various decks where you can expect some problematic cards after sideboard (like Blood Moon or Worship).
The typical choices for this slot includes Nature's Claim, Natural State and Seal of Priomordium, all of which comes with advantages and disadvantages. The choice of Deglamer and Unravel is specifically targeted against the Whir Prison deck as neither Chalice of the Void nor Welding Jar can stop it. Whether this is correct when Whir Prison is just a small percentage of the meta is very doubtful, but there's little doubt that's his reason.
Whether or not you want Rest in Peace against Izzet Phoenix depends a lot on how many Snapcaster Mage, Pteramander and Pyromancer Ascension they run. They're not worth bringing in solely because of Phoenix, but I often feel like it's still worth it since we can spare some slots and we don't really have much else to bring in.
Regarding Tron, it can be a bit tough but it's not so awful. We do have a fast clock and they won't have a turn 4 Ugin all that often while a turn 3 Karn/Wurmcoil can often be beaten. Post sideboard we have a lot of strong cards that can lock them down quite well. More problematic than you would expect at first glance is Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger as it gets around all of our hate and exiles it. It's not fast but our sideboard cards often slow us down too, so they will have time for it often.
Unravel is also better than natural state in matchup against affinity where welding jar is also a common card.
Another better spot is against wurmcoil engine which unravel is a clean answer
*Sorry, not a strictly better Diabolic Edict since you can't target yourself with Liliana's Triumph, but the point stands.
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
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Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I never understood having cards like Deglamer and Unravel in the sideboard. What is it mainly going after. I understand that you could target your own things but can't see 4 sideboard slots just for that. Can anyone give reasoning for it?
Deglamer and Unravel the Aether are different cards with the same effect. It's useful to use one on the 2nd game.. and the other on the 3rd game, for example. Having 2 copies of each gives us flexibility.
It's nice, but I don't think it's a good idea to have 4 cards with this same effect. It's too much.
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
I have played Bogles quite a while ago and now I wanted to bring the deck out again and play some modern. Thing is I haven't been to a Modern Tournament for maybe a year or so and the metagame has changed drastically since then. There are so many new decks and that means I don't know how to sideboard, I hope you can help me with that.
It's definitely nice to see that this thread still has some traction to it.
As I didn't build the deck and am quite out of the loop I can only guess that the 4 Deglamer/Unravel are against Tron and the artifact Prison decks (Lantern and Lanternless or Whir Prison or whatever you wanna call it) decks. Although I don't think it's needed as much against Tron. Against Lantern it helps to get rid of Ensnaring Bridge while getting around Welding Jar, as a little bonus it messes with your opponent if you play Deglamer/Unravel in response to them activating Bell/Pyxis/Codex Shredder on themselves.
Case Johnson made third place out of 988, so there is something to ther 4 Deglamer/Unravel.
Regarding the Lantern matchup I wanted to ask what your experiences with that matchup are and how everyone sideboards against those. (Or maybe you can link me to a guide that's up to date? I couldn't find one using google.) I also just found out that there is also this Prison deck with Whir of Invention, wich doesn't play any of the mill cards, is that more popular now than classic Lantern?
So there are alot of cards I want to board against those:
-Gaddock Teeg instead of Spiritdancers, against Engineered Explosives and Chalice.
-Stony Silence, is that needed against Lantern? I think it's more useful against Whir Prison.
-Deglamer against both of those decks.
-Leyline of Sanctity against the Lantern decks that play discard.
Cards to take out are probably Path to Exile and Spirit Mantle, although the Whir deck has Spellskites again, wich makes Path useful again. There are just so many cards, I am not sure. And it looks like the matchup isn't that great? They have so many cards that just stop Bogles outright (but that is more a problem of Modern in general imho, sideboard cards are way too powerful).
Against the Izzet Phoenix deck, what do you board? Path's are needed. Is Rest in Peace super important? Should I board Deglamer/Unravel, just to be able to maybe get rid of Blood Moon?
Do you have any more important info regarding the general metagame and match ups?
Stony Silence is way better against Lantern. It shuts down what they are trying to accomplish. It is pretty devastating against them. Against Whir Prison, Stony Silence does come in (for Spellskites, Welding Jar, and Engineered Explosives), but it has fewer applications. They can win without it. Actually both decks can win without it, mostly by using Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas or Ghirapur Aether Grid if they have it.
I guess Deglamer and Unravel are mostly used in response to Welding Jar. That actually seems pretty good, but I'm also scared that they can just find it later on with Whir of Invention, whereas killing it and having Rest in Peace prevents Academy Ruins bringing it back.
Leyline of Sanctity definitely comes in vs. Lantern and not Whir. It also prevent Codex Shredder, although Pyxis and Ghoulcaller's Bell don't target.
I would say against Phoenix, Rest in Peace is NOT needed. We just need to focus on the Thing in the Ice and trying to get lifelink or being able to race whatever else they have. That card is the bane of Bogles (and most decks in the format). I think we can beat 1-2 Phoenixes if they are not too early and we get early Lifelink.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Worst would be Infect, Amulet, Company decks, discard decks if you don't get Leyline or have to mulligan to non functional hands, UR Phoenix if their Thing lives. I'm probably forgetting some here too.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)You forgot Tron... that, for me, is terrible, the worst match. When Karn Liberated or Ugin finally come to the battlefield... you probably will lose the game :\
| UBRG D. Shadow | WUBRG Humans | BRG Dredge | UG Infect |
Simply put, we cannot beat Ugin. That being said, if we have the nuts, super quick hand, we can beat them if they stumble on assembling Tron. I feel it's only 40/60 for us. Prison decks are often around 20% probably.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The typical choices for this slot includes Nature's Claim, Natural State and Seal of Priomordium, all of which comes with advantages and disadvantages. The choice of Deglamer and Unravel is specifically targeted against the Whir Prison deck as neither Chalice of the Void nor Welding Jar can stop it. Whether this is correct when Whir Prison is just a small percentage of the meta is very doubtful, but there's little doubt that's his reason.
Whether or not you want Rest in Peace against Izzet Phoenix depends a lot on how many Snapcaster Mage, Pteramander and Pyromancer Ascension they run. They're not worth bringing in solely because of Phoenix, but I often feel like it's still worth it since we can spare some slots and we don't really have much else to bring in.
Regarding Tron, it can be a bit tough but it's not so awful. We do have a fast clock and they won't have a turn 4 Ugin all that often while a turn 3 Karn/Wurmcoil can often be beaten. Post sideboard we have a lot of strong cards that can lock them down quite well. More problematic than you would expect at first glance is Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger as it gets around all of our hate and exiles it. It's not fast but our sideboard cards often slow us down too, so they will have time for it often.
Whir Prison is an insane deck. I have been testing it myself, although I haven't played it in tournament play yet. I feel that it's okay to hedge against them a bit if it doesn't hurt other matchups too badly. I think that even when hedging, there is only a small window for us to get the win (poor draws by them, the nuts by us, mulligans, etc.).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Unravel is also better than natural state in matchup against affinity where welding jar is also a common card.
Another better spot is against wurmcoil engine which unravel is a clean answer
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RIP Slippery Bogle 2012-2019.
I don't think someone will side that in vs. Bogles since it only gets the Slippery Bogle. Hopefully we have Gladecover Scout suited up instead, lol.
Here I thought we would have to wait for Modern Horizons to print Council's Judgement and either Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict. A strictly better Diabolic Edict? Damn, Wizards!
*Sorry, not a strictly better Diabolic Edict since you can't target yourself with Liliana's Triumph, but the point stands.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)