Has anyone done any testing with Vengeful Pharaoh in the main or the side as a form of creature control? I'm thinking it would be good against Hollow One, Tasigur, etc, that you can't Fatal Push. If you get one (or more) in your graveyard with a Mesmeric Orb out, it seems like it would decimate their army pretty quickly, and keep ending up back in the graveyard for you next turn.
I think I might shave a couple Fatal Push and try to slot 3 Pharaohs in and see how it goes
That’s certainly a spicy card there. Too bad you still take the damage, and if you draw into it then its basically dead. But you can atleast discard it with collective brutality.
Im considering taking my ashiok out for it just to see how it goes. Not many people would be expecting it.
Pharaoh trick: let their first strike damage go through when facing humans. Then kill their biggest beater with Pharaoh trigger before they can damage you.
I won’t be testing Pharaoh(s) til later this month. I’ll let you guys know if he flops or not
1. Should I switch back to Visions of Beyond from Compelling Argument. I really like the versatility of Argument but once every 5-6 games I miss the draw 3 aspect of Visions.
2. Should I switch the Echoing Truths in the sideboard to Set Adrift? I like having the 2/2 split for protection, but Set Adrift helps to get rid of Leyline of Sanctity better.
3. I'd like to add 2 more Breaking // Entering but I can't find anything to cut. With the creature aggro heavy meta the combo of Profane Momento, Fatal Push and Ensnaring Bridge seems to be required protection.
Thoughts? Has anyone else done any live testing with the more recent lists? I think Mill is well positioned right now.
Nobody plays Compelling Argument to my knowledge. Because its very inefficient. In both modes. If you dont want to run 4 Visions of Beyond you can replace 4 Arguments with 2 Visions + 2 Breaking, this way you encounter way less 'draw one' situations. I personally not playing with less than 3 Visions.
I like Set Adrift because its a real removal and is even better with Orb. Echoing Truth is a tempo card but this can be ok. So meta/your personal preference decide.
Btw I like Shelldock Isle and mana sinks are especially important in bridge builds
How is Ensnaring Bridge working for people? You rarely empty your hand that fast to completely ignore attacks and the deck can have some trap (pun intended) draws that deactivate the bridge such as Visions and... Archive Trap. Humans seems to be the worst matchup where Bridge looks insane on paper but in practice they have a ton of ways to disrupt you and they don't search the library.
How is Ensnaring Bridge working for people? You rarely empty your hand that fast to completely ignore attacks and the deck can have some trap (pun intended) draws that deactivate the bridge such as Visions and... Archive Trap. Humans seems to be the worst matchup where Bridge looks insane on paper but in practice they have a ton of ways to disrupt you and they don't search the library.
I have not played Mill recently, but Snapcaster/Darkness was my go-to plan to beat aggressive decks (particularly Infect) when I did play. Incursion is also strong against Humans, but 3 CMC is expensive, especially if you're on the draw. With Darkness, you can actually play more mill on T3 (like Glimpse) while also staying alive. Or, on the play, you can get a powerful T4 Funeral with Darkness backup. Incursion often fills your entire turn, although the effect is undoubtedly strong.
Hi all! I don't have much experience with mill; however, I've been doing some reading and brainstorming. Mill has been underpowered, so I was thinking about an alternate approach to the deck. Sort of a "turbo-trap" version.
When looking at mill, the considerations for cards are how many total cards are milled (card efficiency) vs. their cost (mana efficiency). In this regard, Archive Trap is the best on both accounts. With Field of Ruin available for forced shuffling, I was curious how building around this might look. Here's a first draft that I came up with:
I know that this is relatively far from the established norm, and this is more about considering a new type of concept. I've been playing the build a bit, and it has the potential for much faster wins compared to standard builds, even having to pay mana for your spells. For example, T2: Find archive trap, T3: Fraying insanity, T4: Field of ruin + Find another archive trap and win.
White is included instead of black for path, which gives more shuffle effects. Although nobody will search once they know what you're up to. But I think it's probably reasonable (and maybe better) to run black for the classic Glimpse the unthinkable and Crypt Incursion.
Finding search effects is quite important, which is why the inclusion of the 4 tolaria wests. They can sure be clunky at times, but they're necessary for a build like this.
I'm really unsure on Mesmeric Orb. I included it since it feels like one of the better spells vs. control or decks with discard. But maybe it's just mediocre. I'm also even unsure about hedron crab in a build like this. Archive trap does so many cards in one go that the mill from crab frequently doesn't matter.
I included Ipnu because I had many games where I seemed to flood out, so I think it helps keep your consistency while also giving you options later.
Again, I stress that this is more a concept list. When reading I didn't see much discussion of heavy merchant scroll and trapmaker's snare lists, so I thought it was worth bringing up.
Interesting approach, needs testing and further development
Tolaria West too slow, only finds lands btw
Stream of Consciousness very bad, not only you spend a card just to enable another, it has a negative effect
Engineered Explosives kills Crab, Profane Memento and Orb, cmc = 2 is a low limit
Overall very inconsistent and slow as of now, discard and counterspells disrupt too much
Interesting approach, needs testing and further development
Tolaria West too slow, only finds lands btw
Yes, I know Tolaria west only finds lands. When you're building around mostly casting Archive Trap you need ways to get Field of Ruin for a forced shuffle. So TWest are field of ruins 5-8. Having to spend 3 is not ideal, but you need options.
Stream of Consciousness very bad, not only you spend a card just to enable another, it has a negative effect
Stream of Consciousness is a forced shuffle effect that you can tutor with Merchant Scroll. Some forced shuffle is necessary for archive trap. You also can choose zero cards and still force a shuffle, so it never has a negative effect. I'm not convinced it's necessary, but while I'm focusing on archive trap, I want to at least play with an option for forced shuffle. Oops, mistook the alternate cost on archive trap.
Engineered Explosives kills Crab, Profane Memento and Orb, cmc = 2 is a low limit
Yes, explosives kills some of our cards. It's there because you can find it with Tolaria West. We also don't have that many permanents, so it's relatively easy to play around.
Overall very inconsistent and slow as of now, discard and counterspells disrupt too much
I actually think a version like this works better in face of discard and counterspells. With emphasis on the high-value mill cards, you need to resolve fewer mill spells to end the game. Usually you only need 4 cards or 2 cards + Fraying Sanity to end it. Less consistent, yes. Mainly due to the shuffling restriction. But I think you also have far more explosive draws relative to most lists.
Stream of Consciousness is a forced shuffle effect that you can tutor with Merchant Scroll. Some forced shuffle is necessary for archive trap. You also can choose zero cards and still force a shuffle, so it never has a negative effect. I'm not convinced it's necessary, but while I'm focusing on archive trap, I want to at least play with an option for forced shuffle.
Either I misunderstood your intention or you're mistaken on what exactly enables Archive Trap. It's not shuffling, but _searching_ the library that enables us to cast Trap for 0.
My bad, yeah. I never needed the effect anyway, so I got rid of it. There was a deck tech on SCG this weekend talking about archive trap and shuffles, so I honestly overlooked it.
Been playing a bunch of this Uw mill version on Cockatrice, and it's been going very well. The deck is consistently very fast, yet has played very well against discard and counters too. Every card is a must answer and has the potential to mill a ton. I've also put more mill cards in here vs. regular lists. This gives a lot more consistency in just having the pieces you need, instead of drawing non-mill spells when you needed to just win the game.
Path to Exile has helped against high CMC delve threats, compared to Fatal Push. It's also so useful to fire off early archive traps to enable Visions of Beyond early.
Ipnu Rivulet has been an all-star at getting those last few cards milled. But to maximize it, you really want to be running 4 Fraying Sanity as well. Having lands which turn into mill 8 is great, and gives you a lot of game against discard and counters. Fraying sanity is also much more effective in this archive trap version. Unlike Glimpse the Unthinkable which mills instantly, you spend mana to get Archive trap in hand. This lets you play them after Fraying insanity without losing any tempo. They also allow the deck to have far more turn 4 kills compared to traditional builds.
I elect not to run any graveyard exile effects in the maindeck. I think they're too narrow for a general metagame, and would rather have more mill or answers for the board.
In this deck, Ensnaring Bridge is unnecessary. By the time you've played your cards, you've likely just won the game. And if you're dead...Well chances are your opponent was too fast for bridge to help anyway.
Having 5 copies of Echoing Truth due to Merchant Scroll has been a godsend against Leyline of Sanctity. Another reason why focusing on traps are so powerful. You can build up a trap hand without losing tempo, find an echoing truth, and close out the game.
Of course, more testing is needed, but this version has felt very good in my initial plays and I'm eager to keep testing it out. If anybody is interested in trying something different, I recommend trying this.
That's cool that our versions are so similar! I know you run 4x Serum Visions, but I'd still want an extra land in the list, 21 felt too light to me when I was playing. Every land drop is important, even up to 5 mana (sometimes hardcast archive trap is necessary...).
Speaking of lands, did you try Ipnu Rivulet? This card has been so good for me, especially with Tolaria West and Fraying Insanity. It's actually won me a bunch of games I wouldn't have otherwise won. I'd really recommend trying it out if you haven't. Running Ipnu works well with having more lands too, since you don't flood out as much since you can cash in your lands for value.
Do you feel Condemn is better than other creature options, like Profane Memento? The targeting restriction can be kind of awkward for making sure we're actually being efficient with our mana. But I haven't tried it, so I'm curious about your results with it. I've also considered Oust, which has some fun interactions with mill. I feel like some number of creature answers is important though.
Why no 1 Echoing Truth in the maindeck? It's a card I've felt I've needed in games 2-3 every game because you never know if an opponent has Leyline of Sanctity. (I definitely lost a bunch of games to Leylines I didn't expect...) It's not an unreasonable draw either, since it can stall for more time anyway. I feel so much safer having access to it.
Do you like the Serum Visions? I have trouble finding room for them. I feel like the deck is so redundant that I'm not sure they're necessary. They do slow you do a bit, but perhaps that's not an issue. It does help a lot to find sideboard cards though. Have they been crucial for you?
Leave no Trace is cool in the sideboard. It's for Leyline of Sanctity I assume? I thought that Echoing Truths might be enough, although this actually keeps the leyline from coming back down which could be important for games that go longer, as we might want crabs and fraying insanity out.
Stony Silence looks pretty great in the board. Seems like it would help a ton vs. affinity and Tron. I should find room for them in my sideboard.
Overall deck looks great! I know I've just started testing this version, so it's always great to get some confirmation from others that they've been having success too.
So onto spells, I'd be really interested to hear how Engineered Explosives has been working out for you.
Engineered Explosives is a very reasonable removal spell on its own. But with Tolaria West it seems like a waste to not run at least 1 copy. Still, I don't tutor for it often, but I feel much better having the option. Even with only two colors it deals with enough things to be worthwhile. It's best at stopping aggressive draws from decks, so sometimes you'll be really thankful to just draw it and get rid of two creatures!
On Echoing Truth, I think it's a great get out of jail for a turn card vs an opponent with hexproff, say with Leyline of Sanctity or Witchbane Orb. I tend to use mine as the effective 5th-8th card, thanks to Merchant Scroll, in conjunction with 4 Leave No Trace. Having 8 answers to Leyline of Sanctity means that I am confident I can draw into one, or multiples if I have to work through counterspells. What I have found is that I would prefer more creature removal in game one, so it usually sits in the sideboard ready for a specific use. That said it's really not a bad choice in the main either and I can see why you like it. Leave No Trace is also really handy vs enchantments like Damping Sphere or to really upset Boggles.
I think Leave No Trace is cool. I have trouble finding space for it though, we'll see. Echoing Truth just has so much utility that I think having 1 in the deck always is important.
There are only 3 Merchant Scroll in my version of the deck because I don't have space for more! Running 21 land, 8 removal spells and 8 cantrips means I end up with a 3-of in the deck. The other spells are quicker and more focused so I like this mix, but equally can see the benefit for running 4 Merchant Scroll and 3 Trapmakers Snare instead. I guess I like the instant speed tutoring a little more to allow me to hold up mana for removal if needed.
I kind of figured this to be the case. I don't find instant speed to be all that relevant, since not a lot of decks have haste threats that we need to deal with.
I would also be really interested to hear how you have been getting on with Mindbreak Trap and Surgical Extraction. How often do you tend to use them?
Mindbreak Trap is a very reasonable hate card against storm, which can be a tough MU since they want their graveyard filled up, and can be fast themselves. I'm a sucker for enabling my tutors, which is why I run it... Can't say I use it all that often though. It's a spot I could look at cutting.
Surgical feels like an important card, although I can't say that it's been amazing. I feel like an out to Emrakul is important, although when I think about the meta the odds of running into Emrakul doesn't seem that high.
I am also keen to find out your sideboarding strategy, what you take out to put things in, etc. I find myself looking at Mesmeric Orb most often unless it is particularly good in the matchup.
My general strategy is identifying if I need to be fast or not. If I need to be fast, Visions From Beyond usually gets cut. I don't sideboard out mill very often.
Against fast decks I side out 3 Visions from beyond, because the card advantage it offers doesn't matter much. The best shot at winning aggressive matchups is to be quick and disruptive. I will bring in 2 creature cards and 1 more echoing truth.
Tron is similar in that you want to be as fast as possible, but you want other sideboard cards. So I'll bring out 4 visions for 2 surgical, 2 stony silence.
Against discard decks I side in 4 Leyline of Sanctity, usually trimming 1 mesmeric orb, 1 visions, 1 crab, and 1 creature removal. (I run 6 creature removal) Generally all of your cards are useful against discard decks, so I try not to cut too much in any one direction.
Against Burn I'll side out hedron crab for Leyline of Sanctity. Most of the time these decks will have searing blaze/blood, so I like to try to deny them that card. Maybe this is wrong.
Against blue decks I'll bring out creature removal to bring in 2 silence and 1 mindbreak trap.
Against anything with Leyline of Sanctity I'll bring in my second echoing truth. But key in this matchups is not boarding out Mesmeric Orb, as it can gain you advantage through Leyline.
Sorry for quick notes, hopefully this gives an idea!
I don't think Ravenous Trap is a very reliable answer to Emrakaul, The Aeons Torn, because most decks have multiple copies. And if you have to "double mill" them in addition to casting graveyard hate, you can be pretty far behind. Sometimes I get good surgicals, but it can be tough. For example, against UW if they have multiple Colonnades, surgical isn't great. Against UW, I'd probably save surgical when they try to snapcaster a counterspell, since if they get to the point where they're attacking with colonnade, we're in trouble!
Against burn I probably wouldn't board in Leave No Trace. If you have to spend two mana to deal with their threat that still hits you for 2, then you're probably not winning. Against them we also can't afford to dilute our main game plan. Especially since we already have to board in 4 leyline. I think you just have to hope to get a little lucky that you outspeed them and/or they don't have an answer to Leyline.
I'm not sure Leave no Trace is necessary with 2 Echoing Truth in the 75. Leyline is a card, but it's not all too common. Here's my current sideboard:
I don't know if nodes are any good, but I just love this card. Currently I'm running 5 creature removal (4 path + 1 Engineered Explosives). I removed the 2 other creature removal and 1 visions from beyond for 3 serum visions. I think they're worthwhile to just give a little more consistency. I might drop the 24th land now for the 4th serum visions too. Although I do love my land drops, as getting to 4 mana on turn 4 creates our best chances for milling them out on turn 4.
I haven't played against Hatebears, but I think it's a bad matchup. Leonin Arbiter matches up well against our tutors, as well as Field of Ruin. They can elect to not pay, so we can't force them to search! Thalia, Guardian of Thraben also shuts off big Archive trap turns, and slows us down a ton (especially on the play). Note that Engineered Explosives is good against Thalia, because you can pay X = 1, but since Thalia requires you to pay 2 mana, you still get to trigger Sunburst for 2.
In terms of the metagame clock, we're basically a burn deck that's harder to disrupt. Although in practice we almost feel like a combo deck where we just need to resolve ~4 spells to win the game. But I'm not really sure.
I think Ravenous Trap is actually a very good answer to an Emrakul, The Aeons Torn as it exiles their library as well as Emrakul, compared to Surgical Extraction which gets rid of all the Emrakuls but does nothing about the shuffle effect. I think both have their place and am happy running a combination.
It is true that exiling the whole graveyard is useful to stop the shuffle trigger; however, we still need to deal with all Emrakuls until we can win. That's why I don't feel like Ravenous trap is a great answer. What does it matter if we exile the graveyard in response to the shuffle, yet have more Emrakuls in the graveyard to deal with?
Why are you worried about Damping Sphere? (Only echoing truth hits that card anyway.) While it can slow us down, it really doesn't do all that much against us. Especially since if a deck is tapping out for this instead of other threats, then we're in a good position. With 5 lands we can even activate field of ruins and cast 3 archive traps still! It does suck that Rest in Peace shuts of Fraying Sanity, although that's only one of our many mill cards. We can certainly play around it. Especially since control decks are slow. There is an opportunity cost to any non-mill or necessary answer cards. (Opponent might not draw/have rest in peace!) I'm still thinking about Leave no trace though.
Porphyry Nodes looks really interesting and isn't something I had considered. I like how it could be really effective in giving a creature based deck a hard decision about whether to commit to the board and the time this could buy us. Not great with Hedron Crab so I'm not 100% convinced it's the absolute best choice yet either, but I am happy to give them a go to see how they turn out.
Porphyry nodes is useful because it gets you a lot of tempo. Even if they have only one creature in play, you can prevent them from playing a second on their next turn unless they want to keep losing creatures. And since we have a quick way to end the game, I think the tempo can be worthwhile. I'll have to keep trying it to see if I like it.
For your sideboard, what do you think about swapping out Mindbreak Trap for a 3rd Surgical Extraction? Seems like when we want it we really want to find it so perhaps 2 is a little on the low side?
I really debate the surgical extractions. Let's say we ignore issues caused by Emrakul (which I think is very reasonable), how important is it then? They certainly help vs. graveyard decks, but to some degree these decks already help us in speeding up our clock. Surgical vs. tron can also be very helpful, although there is a large degree of randomness in actually hitting the proper tron lands before they get tron online. So ultimately I'm just not sure how much graveyard hate to have. Mindbreak Trap is pretty narrow, and honestly I'm not sure if it's even that powerful against Storm if they know we have it.
Glad you're giving Serum Visions a go, I'm always really happy to have 4 in the deck. I do strongly suggest keeping in the 4 Visions of Beyond as this is one of our most powerful cards! I find the balance of my 21 lands and those 8 cantrips means that I am very rarely mana flooded and have plenty to do in the late game.
Visions of Beyond can be powerful, but honestly I find it to be one of my worst cards. I'm always using my mana, so even 1 mana can be a sacrifice. I find it hard to trigger with so much focus on Archive Trap too. I'm generally prepping for one big archive trap turn, by using the forced shuffle of field of ruin. But if I can only draw a bunch of cards late in the game, then Visions isn't really helping me that much. There's probably a low opportunity cost to running this card though with a large upside, which is good. I think 3 is pretty reasonable, which is what I've been running, as they can be much worse in multiples.
Serum visions is very useful, and I think it helps this deck out a lot. Definitely going to be finding room for 4. Seeing 3 extra cards helps consistency of the deck immensely.
I would also highly recommend running 8 fetches to maximise the effectiveness of Hedron Crab. I have gone even further (like many before us) and added Oboro, Palace in the Clouds, tutorable when needed via Tolaria West, to try and squeeze every last ounce of efficiency out of my favourite little critter.
I don't think it's necessary to run a ton of fetches to maximize the crabs, since ipnu exists. I find that I don't need crabs to be that efficient to close out the game, since archive trap does so much in one go. For pure mill, let's compare long-term value of a fetchland to Ipnu Rivulet. If you have no crabs, ipnu gives you more value. If you have 1 crab, ipnu is still a little better than a fetchland. When you have multiple crabs, then the fetchland is better by a little bit.
Of course, more fetches give you more color consistency, which may be the real argument for running more fetches. But then there's the question, why 8? Why not 9? Or 7? Currently I run 5 fetches, which I think is a good balance, but I will keep an eye on it. Finding a good manabase is hard, because I want all the utility lands, but also color consistency! Here's what I currently have:
//23 lands
One card I think would be very strong in our UW version of the deck is Settle the Wreckage. As an instant speed mass Path To Exile with another opportunity to trigger Archive Trap is just seems amazing. It is a little on the high CMC side for my particular mana curve but I really want it to work. UB versions often run Damnation but for UW Settle The Wreckage seems so much better. Thoughts?
You can't rely on Settle the Wreckage to trigger archive trap. Given that this is game 2/3, (good) opponents will not search their library. And on turn 4 extra mana doesn't help them. We also don't need to worry about playing instants instead of settle. So I would just play wrath effects instead, if we really care about that effect.
After a fair bit of experimentation I'm pretty set on this deck format, able to race most midrange decks whilst still holding up enough control to deal with aggro threats. Mesmeric orb is the real powerhouse of the deck, and can pretty much win games on it's own.
I'd say Manic Scribe is the weakest card in the deck, I probably get a delirium trigger from it in about 50% of games, otherwise it's best asset is in chumping.
Edit: 3 main board surgical might be overkill, and it can certainly be a waste to draw a starting hand with two of them, however my local meta has lots of combo based decks so I'm not sure what I would replace them with.
I don't think it's necessary to run a ton of fetches to maximize the crabs, since ipnu exists. I find that I don't need crabs to be that efficient to close out the game, since archive trap does so much in one go. For pure mill, let's compare long-term value of a fetchland to Ipnu Rivulet. If you have no crabs, ipnu gives you more value. If you have 1 crab, ipnu is still a little better than a fetchland. When you have multiple crabs, then the fetchland is better by a little bit.
I'll have to disagree with you on the fetches vs rivulet, rivulet may mill one more but it puts you down a land as well as requiring two mana to actually use (three effective on that turn), that's a big tempo loss. Fetches on the other hand are instant speed and can get you a variety of mana. Blood moon is a big problem for this deck and i'd much rather have a fetch for the early turns so I can get my basics out.
Visions of Beyond can be powerful, but honestly I find it to be one of my worst cards. I'm always using my mana, so even 1 mana can be a sacrifice. I find it hard to trigger with so much focus on Archive Trap too. I'm generally prepping for one big archive trap turn, by using the forced shuffle of field of ruin. But if I can only draw a bunch of cards late in the game, then Visions isn't really helping me that much. There's probably a low opportunity cost to running this card though with a large upside, which is good. I think 3 is pretty reasonable, which is what I've been running, as they can be much worse in multiples.
Visions is an absolute house. Yes, it requires you to get twenty into the graveyard, but that can usually be achieved with crabs / mesmeric / archive trap quite early. I would go so far as to say visions is NEEDED to prevent this deck from running out of gas. At worst its a 1 mana cycling card, but at best its the most efficient card advantage spell in the game. I am always happy to see a Visions in my starting hand or top-deck one later, although I agree that seeing two of them at the start of the game can be a bit of a tilt if you don't have any easy way to fill their graveyard.
It does cause a non-bo with bridge, but this is usually avoidable by casting during their upkeep and just playing carefully.
I have always been a fan of mill and from my personal opinion I think it is in a great spot right now due to control decks being hot right now especially at my card store. I sleeved up the deck and went 3-1 with this list, I beat KCI, UW control and Jeskai control but I went 1-2 against some shaman eldritch evolution deck.
One card I wasn't that impressed with was fraying sanity and I am thinking I am going to take it out. I know it can be bonkers but from my games that I have played, it was always too late for it to be a late hit card. I have been tossing around the idea of maniac scribe but i thought mind funeral is a bigger hit. If I have played more creature heavy decks then I think it would be more needed.
I am going to ride this deck while it is hot so this is the list I am going to try out now.
One card I wasn't that impressed with was fraying sanity and I am thinking I am going to take it out. I know it can be bonkers but from my games that I have played, it was always too late for it to be a late hit card. I have been tossing around the idea of maniac scribe but i thought mind funeral is a bigger hit. If I have played more creature heavy decks then I think it would be more needed.
I agree with you on Fraying Sanity. If it were only two mana it would be amazing, but at 3 it hits the board too late. If you draw it your asking yourself to hold up on Archive trap and other mills spells to maximize it's effect, this means you might be missing good opportunities for archive trap or you simply die before you can get all your mill spells out. Visions of beyond depends on you stacking their graveyard ASAP, which means its a tempo non-bo with Fraying Sanity.
Personally I'm not a big fan of mind funeral either, whilst Manic Scribe is not an amazing card it does usually buy you time against creature decks. I've had far too many terrible hits off of Mind Funeral to play with it, one time I managed to hit 4 lands in a row... never again!
At 3 mana it also makes it hard to hold up control spells like Fatal Push.
I've played with Trap-makers snare and personally i'm not a fan. Since I rely on Field of Ruin (which should absolutely be a 4 of btw, I've gone off Ghost Quarter as the drawback of land loss is pretty significant, also if your opponent knows your playing Mill they will simply choose not to fetch a basic) to force those archive trap hits, it means I would need 4 lands on the turn I wanted to combo with it, once again I much prefer to run a low to the ground deck to generate better consistency.
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That’s certainly a spicy card there. Too bad you still take the damage, and if you draw into it then its basically dead. But you can atleast discard it with collective brutality.
Im considering taking my ashiok out for it just to see how it goes. Not many people would be expecting it.
UR Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind
WUR Narset's Coinflip Casino
Modern
UB Mill
I won’t be testing Pharaoh(s) til later this month. I’ll let you guys know if he flops or not
UR Niv-Mizzet, The Firemind
WUR Narset's Coinflip Casino
Modern
UB Mill
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Islands
3 Swamps
4 Field of Ruin
CREATURES (4)
4 Hedron Crab
COMBO (3)
3 Fraying Sanity
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Crypt Incursion
3 Fatal Push
3 Profane Memento
MILL (19)
4 Archive Trap
1 Mind Funeral
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Breaking // Entering
4 Compelling Argument
2 Damnation
2 Darkness
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Set Adrift
2 Echoing Truth
2 Spellskite
Questions I still have:
1. Should I switch back to Visions of Beyond from Compelling Argument. I really like the versatility of Argument but once every 5-6 games I miss the draw 3 aspect of Visions.
2. Should I switch the Echoing Truths in the sideboard to Set Adrift? I like having the 2/2 split for protection, but Set Adrift helps to get rid of Leyline of Sanctity better.
3. I'd like to add 2 more Breaking // Entering but I can't find anything to cut. With the creature aggro heavy meta the combo of Profane Momento, Fatal Push and Ensnaring Bridge seems to be required protection.
Thoughts? Has anyone else done any live testing with the more recent lists? I think Mill is well positioned right now.
My Decks:
I like Set Adrift because its a real removal and is even better with Orb. Echoing Truth is a tempo card but this can be ok. So meta/your personal preference decide.
Btw I like Shelldock Isle and mana sinks are especially important in bridge builds
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Maybe Crypt Incursion and Darkness in a more aggressive milling strategy are the way to go?
I have not played Mill recently, but Snapcaster/Darkness was my go-to plan to beat aggressive decks (particularly Infect) when I did play. Incursion is also strong against Humans, but 3 CMC is expensive, especially if you're on the draw. With Darkness, you can actually play more mill on T3 (like Glimpse) while also staying alive. Or, on the play, you can get a powerful T4 Funeral with Darkness backup. Incursion often fills your entire turn, although the effect is undoubtedly strong.
When looking at mill, the considerations for cards are how many total cards are milled (card efficiency) vs. their cost (mana efficiency). In this regard, Archive Trap is the best on both accounts. With Field of Ruin available for forced shuffling, I was curious how building around this might look. Here's a first draft that I came up with:
4 Archive Trap
4 Trapmaker's Snare
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Fraying Sanity
3 Hedron Crab
3 Mesmeric Orb
// The rest
3 Visions of Beyond
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
2 Profane Memento
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Echoing Truth
4 Field of Ruin
4 Tolaria West
2 Island
4 Ipnu Rivulet
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Profane Memento
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Silence
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
I know that this is relatively far from the established norm, and this is more about considering a new type of concept. I've been playing the build a bit, and it has the potential for much faster wins compared to standard builds, even having to pay mana for your spells. For example, T2: Find archive trap, T3: Fraying insanity, T4: Field of ruin + Find another archive trap and win.
White is included instead of black for path, which gives more shuffle effects. Although nobody will search once they know what you're up to. But I think it's probably reasonable (and maybe better) to run black for the classic Glimpse the unthinkable and Crypt Incursion.
Finding search effects is quite important, which is why the inclusion of the 4 tolaria wests. They can sure be clunky at times, but they're necessary for a build like this.
I'm really unsure on Mesmeric Orb. I included it since it feels like one of the better spells vs. control or decks with discard. But maybe it's just mediocre. I'm also even unsure about hedron crab in a build like this. Archive trap does so many cards in one go that the mill from crab frequently doesn't matter.
I included Ipnu because I had many games where I seemed to flood out, so I think it helps keep your consistency while also giving you options later.
Again, I stress that this is more a concept list. When reading I didn't see much discussion of heavy merchant scroll and trapmaker's snare lists, so I thought it was worth bringing up.
Tolaria West too slow, only finds lands btw
Stream of Consciousness very bad, not only you spend a card just to enable another, it has a negative effect
Engineered Explosives kills Crab, Profane Memento and Orb, cmc = 2 is a low limit
Overall very inconsistent and slow as of now, discard and counterspells disrupt too much
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Yes, I know Tolaria west only finds lands. When you're building around mostly casting Archive Trap you need ways to get Field of Ruin for a forced shuffle. So TWest are field of ruins 5-8. Having to spend 3 is not ideal, but you need options.
Stream of Consciousness is a forced shuffle effect that you can tutor with Merchant Scroll. Some forced shuffle is necessary for archive trap. You also can choose zero cards and still force a shuffle, so it never has a negative effect. I'm not convinced it's necessary, but while I'm focusing on archive trap, I want to at least play with an option for forced shuffle.Oops, mistook the alternate cost on archive trap.Yes, explosives kills some of our cards. It's there because you can find it with Tolaria West. We also don't have that many permanents, so it's relatively easy to play around.
I actually think a version like this works better in face of discard and counterspells. With emphasis on the high-value mill cards, you need to resolve fewer mill spells to end the game. Usually you only need 4 cards or 2 cards + Fraying Sanity to end it. Less consistent, yes. Mainly due to the shuffling restriction. But I think you also have far more explosive draws relative to most lists.
Either I misunderstood your intention or you're mistaken on what exactly enables Archive Trap. It's not shuffling, but _searching_ the library that enables us to cast Trap for 0.
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Profane Memento
1 Echoing Truth
4 Path to Exile
// Mill
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Hedron Crab
4 Fraying Sanity
4 Archive Trap
4 Trapmaker's Snare
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Field of Ruin
4 Tolaria West
3 Island
4 Ipnu Rivulet
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Plains
3 Seachrome Coast
2 Profane Memento
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Silence
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Been playing a bunch of this Uw mill version on Cockatrice, and it's been going very well. The deck is consistently very fast, yet has played very well against discard and counters too. Every card is a must answer and has the potential to mill a ton. I've also put more mill cards in here vs. regular lists. This gives a lot more consistency in just having the pieces you need, instead of drawing non-mill spells when you needed to just win the game.
Path to Exile has helped against high CMC delve threats, compared to Fatal Push. It's also so useful to fire off early archive traps to enable Visions of Beyond early.
Ipnu Rivulet has been an all-star at getting those last few cards milled. But to maximize it, you really want to be running 4 Fraying Sanity as well. Having lands which turn into mill 8 is great, and gives you a lot of game against discard and counters. Fraying sanity is also much more effective in this archive trap version. Unlike Glimpse the Unthinkable which mills instantly, you spend mana to get Archive trap in hand. This lets you play them after Fraying insanity without losing any tempo. They also allow the deck to have far more turn 4 kills compared to traditional builds.
Tolaria West has been very useful. Usually it searches up Field of Ruin to enable Archive Trap, but in several games I've picked up an Ipnu Rivulet to close out the game or an Engineered Explosives to not die. It can be slow, but the consistency is well worth it.
I elect not to run any graveyard exile effects in the maindeck. I think they're too narrow for a general metagame, and would rather have more mill or answers for the board.
In this deck, Ensnaring Bridge is unnecessary. By the time you've played your cards, you've likely just won the game. And if you're dead...Well chances are your opponent was too fast for bridge to help anyway.
Having 5 copies of Echoing Truth due to Merchant Scroll has been a godsend against Leyline of Sanctity. Another reason why focusing on traps are so powerful. You can build up a trap hand without losing tempo, find an echoing truth, and close out the game.
Of course, more testing is needed, but this version has felt very good in my initial plays and I'm eager to keep testing it out. If anybody is interested in trying something different, I recommend trying this.
That's cool that our versions are so similar! I know you run 4x Serum Visions, but I'd still want an extra land in the list, 21 felt too light to me when I was playing. Every land drop is important, even up to 5 mana (sometimes hardcast archive trap is necessary...).
Speaking of lands, did you try Ipnu Rivulet? This card has been so good for me, especially with Tolaria West and Fraying Insanity. It's actually won me a bunch of games I wouldn't have otherwise won. I'd really recommend trying it out if you haven't. Running Ipnu works well with having more lands too, since you don't flood out as much since you can cash in your lands for value.
Do you feel Condemn is better than other creature options, like Profane Memento? The targeting restriction can be kind of awkward for making sure we're actually being efficient with our mana. But I haven't tried it, so I'm curious about your results with it. I've also considered Oust, which has some fun interactions with mill. I feel like some number of creature answers is important though.
Why no 1 Echoing Truth in the maindeck? It's a card I've felt I've needed in games 2-3 every game because you never know if an opponent has Leyline of Sanctity. (I definitely lost a bunch of games to Leylines I didn't expect...) It's not an unreasonable draw either, since it can stall for more time anyway. I feel so much safer having access to it.
Do you like the Serum Visions? I have trouble finding room for them. I feel like the deck is so redundant that I'm not sure they're necessary. They do slow you do a bit, but perhaps that's not an issue. It does help a lot to find sideboard cards though. Have they been crucial for you?
Why only 3 Merchant Scroll? Do you feel you have enough mill otherwise? At the very least I'd go 3 trapmaker's snare/4 merchant scroll so you have more access to Echoing Truth.
Leave no Trace is cool in the sideboard. It's for Leyline of Sanctity I assume? I thought that Echoing Truths might be enough, although this actually keeps the leyline from coming back down which could be important for games that go longer, as we might want crabs and fraying insanity out.
Stony Silence looks pretty great in the board. Seems like it would help a ton vs. affinity and Tron. I should find room for them in my sideboard.
Overall deck looks great! I know I've just started testing this version, so it's always great to get some confirmation from others that they've been having success too.
Engineered Explosives is a very reasonable removal spell on its own. But with Tolaria West it seems like a waste to not run at least 1 copy. Still, I don't tutor for it often, but I feel much better having the option. Even with only two colors it deals with enough things to be worthwhile. It's best at stopping aggressive draws from decks, so sometimes you'll be really thankful to just draw it and get rid of two creatures!
I think Leave No Trace is cool. I have trouble finding space for it though, we'll see. Echoing Truth just has so much utility that I think having 1 in the deck always is important.
I kind of figured this to be the case. I don't find instant speed to be all that relevant, since not a lot of decks have haste threats that we need to deal with.
Mindbreak Trap is a very reasonable hate card against storm, which can be a tough MU since they want their graveyard filled up, and can be fast themselves. I'm a sucker for enabling my tutors, which is why I run it... Can't say I use it all that often though. It's a spot I could look at cutting.
Surgical feels like an important card, although I can't say that it's been amazing. I feel like an out to Emrakul is important, although when I think about the meta the odds of running into Emrakul doesn't seem that high.
My general strategy is identifying if I need to be fast or not. If I need to be fast, Visions From Beyond usually gets cut. I don't sideboard out mill very often.
Against fast decks I side out 3 Visions from beyond, because the card advantage it offers doesn't matter much. The best shot at winning aggressive matchups is to be quick and disruptive. I will bring in 2 creature cards and 1 more echoing truth.
Tron is similar in that you want to be as fast as possible, but you want other sideboard cards. So I'll bring out 4 visions for 2 surgical, 2 stony silence.
Against discard decks I side in 4 Leyline of Sanctity, usually trimming 1 mesmeric orb, 1 visions, 1 crab, and 1 creature removal. (I run 6 creature removal) Generally all of your cards are useful against discard decks, so I try not to cut too much in any one direction.
Against Burn I'll side out hedron crab for Leyline of Sanctity. Most of the time these decks will have searing blaze/blood, so I like to try to deny them that card. Maybe this is wrong.
Against blue decks I'll bring out creature removal to bring in 2 silence and 1 mindbreak trap.
Against anything with Leyline of Sanctity I'll bring in my second echoing truth. But key in this matchups is not boarding out Mesmeric Orb, as it can gain you advantage through Leyline.
Sorry for quick notes, hopefully this gives an idea!
Against burn I probably wouldn't board in Leave No Trace. If you have to spend two mana to deal with their threat that still hits you for 2, then you're probably not winning. Against them we also can't afford to dilute our main game plan. Especially since we already have to board in 4 leyline. I think you just have to hope to get a little lucky that you outspeed them and/or they don't have an answer to Leyline.
I'm not sure Leave no Trace is necessary with 2 Echoing Truth in the 75. Leyline is a card, but it's not all too common. Here's my current sideboard:
I don't know if nodes are any good, but I just love this card. Currently I'm running 5 creature removal (4 path + 1 Engineered Explosives). I removed the 2 other creature removal and 1 visions from beyond for 3 serum visions. I think they're worthwhile to just give a little more consistency. I might drop the 24th land now for the 4th serum visions too. Although I do love my land drops, as getting to 4 mana on turn 4 creates our best chances for milling them out on turn 4.
I haven't played against Hatebears, but I think it's a bad matchup. Leonin Arbiter matches up well against our tutors, as well as Field of Ruin. They can elect to not pay, so we can't force them to search! Thalia, Guardian of Thraben also shuts off big Archive trap turns, and slows us down a ton (especially on the play). Note that Engineered Explosives is good against Thalia, because you can pay X = 1, but since Thalia requires you to pay 2 mana, you still get to trigger Sunburst for 2.
In terms of the metagame clock, we're basically a burn deck that's harder to disrupt. Although in practice we almost feel like a combo deck where we just need to resolve ~4 spells to win the game. But I'm not really sure.
It is true that exiling the whole graveyard is useful to stop the shuffle trigger; however, we still need to deal with all Emrakuls until we can win. That's why I don't feel like Ravenous trap is a great answer. What does it matter if we exile the graveyard in response to the shuffle, yet have more Emrakuls in the graveyard to deal with?
Why are you worried about Damping Sphere? (Only echoing truth hits that card anyway.) While it can slow us down, it really doesn't do all that much against us. Especially since if a deck is tapping out for this instead of other threats, then we're in a good position. With 5 lands we can even activate field of ruins and cast 3 archive traps still! It does suck that Rest in Peace shuts of Fraying Sanity, although that's only one of our many mill cards. We can certainly play around it. Especially since control decks are slow. There is an opportunity cost to any non-mill or necessary answer cards. (Opponent might not draw/have rest in peace!) I'm still thinking about Leave no trace though.
Porphyry nodes is useful because it gets you a lot of tempo. Even if they have only one creature in play, you can prevent them from playing a second on their next turn unless they want to keep losing creatures. And since we have a quick way to end the game, I think the tempo can be worthwhile. I'll have to keep trying it to see if I like it.
I really debate the surgical extractions. Let's say we ignore issues caused by Emrakul (which I think is very reasonable), how important is it then? They certainly help vs. graveyard decks, but to some degree these decks already help us in speeding up our clock. Surgical vs. tron can also be very helpful, although there is a large degree of randomness in actually hitting the proper tron lands before they get tron online. So ultimately I'm just not sure how much graveyard hate to have. Mindbreak Trap is pretty narrow, and honestly I'm not sure if it's even that powerful against Storm if they know we have it.
Visions of Beyond can be powerful, but honestly I find it to be one of my worst cards. I'm always using my mana, so even 1 mana can be a sacrifice. I find it hard to trigger with so much focus on Archive Trap too. I'm generally prepping for one big archive trap turn, by using the forced shuffle of field of ruin. But if I can only draw a bunch of cards late in the game, then Visions isn't really helping me that much. There's probably a low opportunity cost to running this card though with a large upside, which is good. I think 3 is pretty reasonable, which is what I've been running, as they can be much worse in multiples.
Serum visions is very useful, and I think it helps this deck out a lot. Definitely going to be finding room for 4. Seeing 3 extra cards helps consistency of the deck immensely.
I don't think it's necessary to run a ton of fetches to maximize the crabs, since ipnu exists. I find that I don't need crabs to be that efficient to close out the game, since archive trap does so much in one go. For pure mill, let's compare long-term value of a fetchland to Ipnu Rivulet. If you have no crabs, ipnu gives you more value. If you have 1 crab, ipnu is still a little better than a fetchland. When you have multiple crabs, then the fetchland is better by a little bit.
Of course, more fetches give you more color consistency, which may be the real argument for running more fetches. But then there's the question, why 8? Why not 9? Or 7? Currently I run 5 fetches, which I think is a good balance, but I will keep an eye on it. Finding a good manabase is hard, because I want all the utility lands, but also color consistency! Here's what I currently have:
//23 lands
You can't rely on Settle the Wreckage to trigger archive trap. Given that this is game 2/3, (good) opponents will not search their library. And on turn 4 extra mana doesn't help them. We also don't need to worry about playing instants instead of settle. So I would just play wrath effects instead, if we really care about that effect.
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ipnu Rivulet
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Shelldock Isle
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Creatures
4 Hedron Crab
4 Manic Scribe
2 Search for Azcanta
Artifacts
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mesmeric Orb
Instant
4 Archive Trap
1 Crypt Incursion
3 Fatal Push
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Visions of Beyond
Sorcery
2 Collective Brutality
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Profane Memento
2 Crypt Incursion
2 Echoing Truth
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Spell Pierce
2 Damnation
2 Set Adrift
After a fair bit of experimentation I'm pretty set on this deck format, able to race most midrange decks whilst still holding up enough control to deal with aggro threats. Mesmeric orb is the real powerhouse of the deck, and can pretty much win games on it's own.
I'd say Manic Scribe is the weakest card in the deck, I probably get a delirium trigger from it in about 50% of games, otherwise it's best asset is in chumping.
Edit: 3 main board surgical might be overkill, and it can certainly be a waste to draw a starting hand with two of them, however my local meta has lots of combo based decks so I'm not sure what I would replace them with.
I'll have to disagree with you on the fetches vs rivulet, rivulet may mill one more but it puts you down a land as well as requiring two mana to actually use (three effective on that turn), that's a big tempo loss. Fetches on the other hand are instant speed and can get you a variety of mana. Blood moon is a big problem for this deck and i'd much rather have a fetch for the early turns so I can get my basics out.
Visions is an absolute house. Yes, it requires you to get twenty into the graveyard, but that can usually be achieved with crabs / mesmeric / archive trap quite early. I would go so far as to say visions is NEEDED to prevent this deck from running out of gas. At worst its a 1 mana cycling card, but at best its the most efficient card advantage spell in the game. I am always happy to see a Visions in my starting hand or top-deck one later, although I agree that seeing two of them at the start of the game can be a bit of a tilt if you don't have any easy way to fill their graveyard.
It does cause a non-bo with bridge, but this is usually avoidable by casting during their upkeep and just playing carefully.
Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-ub-52551#online
4 Manic Scribe
1 Darkness
2 Fatal Push
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Thought Scour
4 Visions of Beyond
1 Echoing Truth
4 Winds of Rebuke
2 Crypt Incursion
4 Archive Trap
2 Fraying Sanity
4 Field of Ruin
3 Ipnu Rivulet
3 Island
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Polluted Delta
2 Shelldock Isle
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Darkness
3 Duress
2 Fatal Push
1 Profane Memento
1 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Damnation
2 Ravenous Trap
This is the deck I ran
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mesmeric Orb
Creature
4 Hedron Crab
Instant
4 Archive Trap
1 Crypt Incursion
3 Fatal Push
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Visions of Beyond
Enchantment
1 Search for Azcanta
2 Fraying Sanity
2 Collective Brutality
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Mind Funeral
Land
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Field of Ruin
2 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Ipnu Rivulet
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
2 Damping Sphere
2 Darkness
2 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Murderous Cut
2 Set Adrift
1 Surgical Extraction
One card I wasn't that impressed with was fraying sanity and I am thinking I am going to take it out. I know it can be bonkers but from my games that I have played, it was always too late for it to be a late hit card. I have been tossing around the idea of maniac scribe but i thought mind funeral is a bigger hit. If I have played more creature heavy decks then I think it would be more needed.
I am going to ride this deck while it is hot so this is the list I am going to try out now.
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mesmeric Orb
Creature (4)
4 Hedron Crab
Instant (15)
4 Archive Trap
1 Crypt Incursion
3 Fatal Push
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Trapmaker's Snare
2 Visions of Beyond
Enchantment (2)
2 Search for Azcanta
Sorcery (9)
2 Collective Brutality
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Mind Funeral
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Field of Ruin
2 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Ipnu Rivulet
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Damping Sphere
2 Darkness
2 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Murderous Cut
2 Set Adrift
I cut -2 fraying sanity and -1 mind funeral for +2 trapmaker's snare +1 Search for azcanta. I am up for suggestions if you have any ideas.
I agree with you on Fraying Sanity. If it were only two mana it would be amazing, but at 3 it hits the board too late. If you draw it your asking yourself to hold up on Archive trap and other mills spells to maximize it's effect, this means you might be missing good opportunities for archive trap or you simply die before you can get all your mill spells out. Visions of beyond depends on you stacking their graveyard ASAP, which means its a tempo non-bo with Fraying Sanity.
Personally I'm not a big fan of mind funeral either, whilst Manic Scribe is not an amazing card it does usually buy you time against creature decks. I've had far too many terrible hits off of Mind Funeral to play with it, one time I managed to hit 4 lands in a row... never again!
At 3 mana it also makes it hard to hold up control spells like Fatal Push.
I've played with Trap-makers snare and personally i'm not a fan. Since I rely on Field of Ruin (which should absolutely be a 4 of btw, I've gone off Ghost Quarter as the drawback of land loss is pretty significant, also if your opponent knows your playing Mill they will simply choose not to fetch a basic) to force those archive trap hits, it means I would need 4 lands on the turn I wanted to combo with it, once again I much prefer to run a low to the ground deck to generate better consistency.
Currently active
- Humans
- Evolve Zoo