It works like Mission Briefing, without the exile part.
Cast Archive Trap, cast Reversal, copy makes them mill 13, then Trap goes back to hand where you cast it again. Mill 13 again. If you Frayed their Sanity, GG.
I don't understand what he said about Ashiok and the interaction with Trap. I assume he claims that despite being counter-intuitive, you can cast Trap for its alternative cost (= :0mana:) with Ashiok on the BF if you force a player to search their library, even if Ashiok eventually prevents them to do so. And he takes Field of Ruin as an example. Is there a source that confirms that ruling ?
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I don't understand what he said about Ashiok and the interaction with Trap. I assume he claims that despite being counter-intuitive, you can cast Trap for its alternative cost (= :0mana:) with Ashiok on the BF if you force a player to search their library, even if Ashiok eventually prevents them to do so. And he takes Field of Ruin as an example. Is there a source that confirms that ruling ?
No, that's not what he said at all, and I don't even play mill. His point was that Archive Trap acts like an invisible Shadow of Doubt, the very threat of which makes many players forego search entirely unless they can protect themselves or confirm Trap's absence. Therefore, you mill players are likely to hardcast Trap in many cases anyways, so the new Ashiok makes the deck lose little against skilled players. You go from an opponent not searching by choice to just not searching at all.
Also, Ashiok only prevents your opponents' own searches from their cards, so the searches you force with Field of Ruin still happen.
It is until you realize you can search for it rather easily with Sylvan Scrying or Expedition Map. It's a 4 of, anyway. You are going to run into it, or, with the new Mulligan rule, you'll mull into it.
Ashtrolar, the list of Dimir mill creatures begins and ends with Hedron Crab, Jace's Phantasm, and Snapcaster Mage. Jury is still out on Thing in the Ice.
(Not a fan of Manic Scribe. Not enough impact.)
There is a reason Ensnaring Bridge appears so often in decklists.
It is until you realize you can search for it rather easily with Sylvan Scrying or Expedition Map. It's a 4 of, anyway. You are going to run into it, or, with the new Mulligan rule, you'll mull into it.
You need to search for two things: land and trap. It's not working, you will have a deck full of searchers.
Hi there, I'm fairly new to the archetype and having a lot of fun with it at the moment.
My question is about the possibility of an competitive esper build. Has this been tested much? My current build is a fairly stock UB list with a reworked mana base and the main change being 4 PtE replacing the 3 pushes & 1 murderous cut. I see three big upsides of Path that make it worth the splash - 1 it is a far cleaner removal hitting Gurmag, Primetime, Wurmcoil, Arclight etc. 2 - it provides another potential trigger for free Archive Trap. 3 - this one is small but it takes another basic land out of their deck, synergising well with FoR and my one-of Mind Funeral.
The only other change I've made to the maindeck is running 3 Extirpate over Surgicals as a concession to the more painful mana base.
The sideboard gets significant upgrades with Fragmentize as a simple and elegant answer to Leyline of Sanctity, RiP as the best graveyard hate in modern, as well as other great options such as Stony, the new uncounterable Negate - Dovin's Veto, and possibly our own Leyline of Sancititys if burn is an issue in your meta.
Anyway, would love to hear what people think about the potential of a competitive esper mill deck in modern.
Esper is a very common approach. if you search the pages, you'll find a lot of Esper lists.
I recommend starting from the beginning, and reading all 114 pages. It will be a time capsule of the deck, and you can follow as people try new cards out, and how they feel as they keep it or discard it. It will open your eyes to a whole lot of older cards, and probably keep you from wasting time trying stuff we've concluded does not work.
Yes, it's a lot of reading, but it's pretty entertaining stuff.
Chung actually thinks the new Ashiok is playable in modern but I think what he means is, it is playable as a 1x in the sideboard. I can't imagine cutting Crypt Incursion or Ensnaring Bridge for this 3 mana do nothing.
Bernardo Torres day 2'd the MC with mill and was in position to top 8 until he lost vs GDS and UW Control in back to back rounds. He was playing the Chung list with 4 Darkslick Shores main, which I have been doing myself lately and have liked. He also played a copy of Engineered Explosives in his sideboard instead of a Night of Souls' Betrayl. The rest of the deck looked pretty stock.
My question is about the possibility of an competitive esper build.
I think the best way to answer it to use mtgtop8 search https://www.mtgtop8.com/search. Search for deck mill and format modern. Almost all decks are UB, so there must be a reason.
So I’ve been playing mill for quite some time. I always saw the potential it had in its unusual axis of attack. Some of you will remember how depressing it was to play mill during the Eldrazi Winter...but then it got better. There were less Eldrazi in the format and it seemed people all but forgot about mill so you were able to steal a lot of games from inexperienced opponents who had no idea what an Archive Trap was. Recently we got some new tools that put us on the map and forced people to look at Mill as a serious contender in competitive play. We’ve had a good run and UB mill is still really powerful....but does anyone else feel like we’ve stalled a little; lost a little footing in the meta game?
I always try to brew and build my decks in a way that takes advantage of slight shifts in deck choices and meta changes. Right now, in my humble opinion, I believe white lines up better with what’s on the horizon than black does. Before you grab your pitchforks, let me be clear that I don’t think ditching black completely will ever be the correct choice. Black provides us with some our most crucial cards: Glimpse the Unthinkable, Surgical/Extirpate, Crypt Incursion, etc. Generally, UW mill had been seen as an inferior mill build and in a lot of ways, it is. Esper, however, has proven to be incredibly relevant in our current meta.
Yes it’s very difficult to pilot through your mana and manage your life loss, but the tools that white brings to the table line up really well with what you’re generally seeing across the table.
Path to Exile is a no brainer: despite creating a slight tension with Surgical Extraction, it’s one of the best removal spells in the game and has a search clause to boot. And pathing your Hedron Crab to fix your mana in a pinch can be clutch.
Settle the Wreckage: As many of you know turn 4 is quite possibly the most crucial turn for us and a surprise Settle can often single handedly turn the tide toward your favor. Also turns out exiling creatures is really good right now. Search clause included. Oh and don’t tell anyone but you can totally Settle your own Hedron Crab to ensure that land drop you need for a game winning Archive Trap.
Timely Reinforcements: I was skeptical about this card when I first started testing it in my Esper build. I’ve won so many games that I had no business winning off the back of this card. Now I never leave home without 2 in my sideboard.
Rest In Peace: Have you ever been fortunate enough to experience what it’s like to surgical all the Thing in the Ices and Phoenixes out of a deck only to lose to a Crackling Drake? I have...more times than I’d like to admit. Sometimes Surgicaling threats is the right call, sometimes RiP is better. Having the ability to switch between the two has felt so good in this current meta.
Of course there’s plenty of other white goodies to mess around with, but these are the key players I’ve found to be very effective in battling the most played decks in the format. I’m not necessarily saying Esper is better than the finely tuned UB versions, but if the meta keeps leaning into Humans at the top of the food chain again, I can see it being something worth considering.
Rest In Peace: Have you ever been fortunate enough to experience what it’s like to surgical all the Thing in the Ices and Phoenixes out of a deck only to lose to a Crackling Drake? I have...more times than I’d like to admit. Sometimes Surgicaling threats is the right call, sometimes RiP is better. Having the ability to switch between the two has felt so good in this current meta.
The problem with splashing white is turning it into a control/mill deck which is too slow for the meta. Being a swiss army knife of a deck slows the milling by a lot which will cause us games.
Cast Archive Trap, cast Reversal, copy makes them mill 13, then Trap goes back to hand where you cast it again. Mill 13 again. If you Frayed their Sanity, GG.
Not a bad use of 2 mana.
You need 7 mana to do that. By turn 7 you are likely already dead.
I suppose Fraying Sanity might pull it's weight now?
something like this
4 Field of Ruin
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Tolaria West
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Plains
Spells
4 Archive Trap
4 Mission Briefing
4 Narsett's Reversal
4 Path to Exile
4 Trapmaker's Snare
3 Oust
3 Thought Scour
4 Hedron Crab
4 Thing in the Ice
Enchantment
4 Fraying Sanity
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Detection Tower
No, that's not what he said at all, and I don't even play mill. His point was that Archive Trap acts like an invisible Shadow of Doubt, the very threat of which makes many players forego search entirely unless they can protect themselves or confirm Trap's absence. Therefore, you mill players are likely to hardcast Trap in many cases anyways, so the new Ashiok makes the deck lose little against skilled players. You go from an opponent not searching by choice to just not searching at all.
Also, Ashiok only prevents your opponents' own searches from their cards, so the searches you force with Field of Ruin still happen.
(Not a fan of Manic Scribe. Not enough impact.)
There is a reason Ensnaring Bridge appears so often in decklists.
My question is about the possibility of an competitive esper build. Has this been tested much? My current build is a fairly stock UB list with a reworked mana base and the main change being 4 PtE replacing the 3 pushes & 1 murderous cut. I see three big upsides of Path that make it worth the splash - 1 it is a far cleaner removal hitting Gurmag, Primetime, Wurmcoil, Arclight etc. 2 - it provides another potential trigger for free Archive Trap. 3 - this one is small but it takes another basic land out of their deck, synergising well with FoR and my one-of Mind Funeral.
The only other change I've made to the maindeck is running 3 Extirpate over Surgicals as a concession to the more painful mana base.
The sideboard gets significant upgrades with Fragmentize as a simple and elegant answer to Leyline of Sanctity, RiP as the best graveyard hate in modern, as well as other great options such as Stony, the new uncounterable Negate - Dovin's Veto, and possibly our own Leyline of Sancititys if burn is an issue in your meta.
Anyway, would love to hear what people think about the potential of a competitive esper mill deck in modern.
I recommend starting from the beginning, and reading all 114 pages. It will be a time capsule of the deck, and you can follow as people try new cards out, and how they feel as they keep it or discard it. It will open your eyes to a whole lot of older cards, and probably keep you from wasting time trying stuff we've concluded does not work.
Yes, it's a lot of reading, but it's pretty entertaining stuff.
Bernardo Torres day 2'd the MC with mill and was in position to top 8 until he lost vs GDS and UW Control in back to back rounds. He was playing the Chung list with 4 Darkslick Shores main, which I have been doing myself lately and have liked. He also played a copy of Engineered Explosives in his sideboard instead of a Night of Souls' Betrayl. The rest of the deck looked pretty stock.
Turning off their fetchlands can also be a pretty big deal, but I'd say that advantage becomes negligible on the draw.
The question is, is it better than Crypt Incursion?
I always try to brew and build my decks in a way that takes advantage of slight shifts in deck choices and meta changes. Right now, in my humble opinion, I believe white lines up better with what’s on the horizon than black does. Before you grab your pitchforks, let me be clear that I don’t think ditching black completely will ever be the correct choice. Black provides us with some our most crucial cards: Glimpse the Unthinkable, Surgical/Extirpate, Crypt Incursion, etc. Generally, UW mill had been seen as an inferior mill build and in a lot of ways, it is. Esper, however, has proven to be incredibly relevant in our current meta.
Yes it’s very difficult to pilot through your mana and manage your life loss, but the tools that white brings to the table line up really well with what you’re generally seeing across the table.
Path to Exile is a no brainer: despite creating a slight tension with Surgical Extraction, it’s one of the best removal spells in the game and has a search clause to boot. And pathing your Hedron Crab to fix your mana in a pinch can be clutch.
Settle the Wreckage: As many of you know turn 4 is quite possibly the most crucial turn for us and a surprise Settle can often single handedly turn the tide toward your favor. Also turns out exiling creatures is really good right now. Search clause included. Oh and don’t tell anyone but you can totally Settle your own Hedron Crab to ensure that land drop you need for a game winning Archive Trap.
Timely Reinforcements: I was skeptical about this card when I first started testing it in my Esper build. I’ve won so many games that I had no business winning off the back of this card. Now I never leave home without 2 in my sideboard.
Rest In Peace: Have you ever been fortunate enough to experience what it’s like to surgical all the Thing in the Ices and Phoenixes out of a deck only to lose to a Crackling Drake? I have...more times than I’d like to admit. Sometimes Surgicaling threats is the right call, sometimes RiP is better. Having the ability to switch between the two has felt so good in this current meta.
Of course there’s plenty of other white goodies to mess around with, but these are the key players I’ve found to be very effective in battling the most played decks in the format. I’m not necessarily saying Esper is better than the finely tuned UB versions, but if the meta keeps leaning into Humans at the top of the food chain again, I can see it being something worth considering.
Ok, commence the pitchforking
Crackling Drake - Read the card again and see your comments
The problem with splashing white is turning it into a control/mill deck which is too slow for the meta. Being a swiss army knife of a deck slows the milling by a lot which will cause us games.