So I've been trying Scheming Symmetry a little over the past 2 days. I have mixed results so far.
I've tried it with a turbo-trap type deck with 4x Scheming Symmetry and 4x Thought Scour and aiming for a combo type kill, as well as slotting it as 2x in a more normal UB aggro/control type shell. Overall, Scheming Symmetry has won me games and rarely feels like a dead card. In the opening hand it feels pretty good with a Thought Scour, however in the end the issue is that it's a -1 in card advantage. Even if you start with a Thought Scour, you can fetch an Archive Trap turn 2 and then use Thought Scour to draw it, milling a total of 15 cards with essentially 2 cards. It feels better if you already have a Trap in your hand, and you can fetch something like a Visions of Beyond to refill your empty hand on the following turn. In theory it's capable of fetching a wide variety of answers, such as variable things from the sideboard, but I haven't found that comes up that often.
I think the card suffers from the overall drawback of mill which is that it doesn't quickly affect board state. Mill desperately needs more value cards that mill on top of doing other things to be truly competitive right now.
This is the turbo-trap type shell I have it running in:
I think U/B mill just got better with all the bannings. I think decks will slow down and U/b mill should be pretty solid. Also SFM adds a reason for them to search which helps archive trap and mission briefing.
I've had some decent success with Scheming Symmetry, running it as a two-of. It's not a bad draw most of the time, especially with a Visions of Beyond in your hand. Symmetry has been responsible for some of the most explosive starts, and works well as a tutor for some key cards like Crypt Incursion or Ensnaring Bridge. It's a bit of a non-bo with Mesmeric Orb though since you can't draw the card either, so needs a cantrip to help work in those cases.
I will continue to test it but it's not a bad addition in my mind.
Might this shift the deck to primarily win with these two creatures and use mill as primarily disruption and move it to a secondary win con? Does the deck deemphasise certain mill cards and bring in more varied disruption as a consequence?
These are interesting times for UB Mill in Modern.
I think it's less about which is weaker or stronger, and more about that we now have up to 8 copies of a cheap 5/x flier to attack with. Phantasm wins a significant number of games even though milling them out is the main strategy; doubling the tools for that alternate line of attack is a good thing. In my view it's play both, not either or. Maybe 4 phantasm and 2 or 3 gargoyle if space is an issue or the attacking plan is deemphasized in your build.
So I have been tinkering with the U/B mill deck and I really like the Drown in the Loch in deck and actually I really like Wishclaw talisman in the deck. Sets you up late game or search for a trap card to prepare for when the opponent searches for it or you can mess with their head. I think you can add vantress gargoyle if you like but you may only need 2. I think Jace's Phantasm is actually pretty good, its puts a different clock on the opponent.
This is what I have built now and it seems to run pretty good.
i dont understand the logic of wishclaw talisman over scheming symetry, at least not in main....you need to expend 11B to tutor....+1 to thought scour whatever they use their tutor on.... against B to tutor... then the same thought scour for basically the same effect(you are playing a tempo deck, the extra tutor is most of the times irrelevant..... also... is a permanent that can be blown).....
care to explain your reasoning?
EDIT: i will try it next tournament, but im not that convinced
EDIT 2: i also find your lack of 4 surgicals in main..... disturbing
I think it's less about which is weaker or stronger, and more about that we now have up to 8 copies of a cheap 5/x flier to attack with. Phantasm wins a significant number of games even though milling them out is the main strategy; doubling the tools for that alternate line of attack is a good thing. In my view it's play both, not either or. Maybe 4 phantasm and 2 or 3 gargoyle if space is an issue or the attacking plan is deemphasized in your build.
i actually proved it with x3 gargoyles... and i can say it improves inmensely some of the worst matches of the deck(burn and infect)... might go down to 2 for space issues... still a great card!
i dont understand the logic of wishclaw talisman over scheming symetry, at least not in main....you need to expend 11B to tutor....+1 to thought scour whatever they use their tutor on.... against B to tutor... then the same thought scour for basically the same effect(you are playing a tempo deck, the extra tutor is most of the times irrelevant..... also... is a permanent that can be blown).....
care to explain your reasoning?
I don't understand why you care for a thoughtscour with a wishclaw talisman since wishclaw talisman automatically puts the card in their hand. I have been able to use wishclaw talisman late game to search for the card to keep the game going or to win the game. The opponent can't counter react once they receive the wishclaw talisman because it works sorcery speed but they have to be very wary if they are to use it because there is a good chance you searched for a archive trap. Also if you run the Ashiok, Dream Render they can't activate the wishclaw talisman.
There are multiple mill players at my FNM, but they all seem to really like wishclaw talisman right now. So I am not too crazy about using this card.
Also I don't have MB surgical in the deck because it kind of hurts drown in the loch. If you are going to take cards early game out of the graveyard then drown in the loch isn't as good. Plus with Urza PO and/or Thopter foundry they can possibly respond to what you are targeting or tap an extra mana to trigger the sword.
You may be better off running extirpate in the deck or SB to deal with those decks.
EDIT: i will try it next tournament, but im not that convinced
EDIT 2: i also find your lack of 4 surgicals in main..... disturbing
I think it's less about which is weaker or stronger, and more about that we now have up to 8 copies of a cheap 5/x flier to attack with. Phantasm wins a significant number of games even though milling them out is the main strategy; doubling the tools for that alternate line of attack is a good thing. In my view it's play both, not either or. Maybe 4 phantasm and 2 or 3 gargoyle if space is an issue or the attacking plan is deemphasized in your build.
i actually proved it with x3 gargoyles... and i can say it improves inmensely some of the worst matches of the deck(burn and infect)... might go down to 2 for space issues... still a great card!
I think this card is fine if your going for more of mill aggro/temp style and not so controlling at the other UB mill decks.
i dont understand the logic of wishclaw talisman over scheming symetry, at least not in main....you need to expend 11B to tutor....+1 to thought scour whatever they use their tutor on.... against B to tutor... then the same thought scour for basically the same effect(you are playing a tempo deck, the extra tutor is most of the times irrelevant..... also... is a permanent that can be blown).....
care to explain your reasoning?
I don't understand why you care for a thoughtscour with a wishclaw talisman since wishclaw talisman automatically puts the card in their hand. I have been able to use wishclaw talisman late game to search for the card to keep the game going or to win the game. The opponent can't counter react once they receive the wishclaw talisman because it works sorcery speed but they have to be very wary if they are to use it because there is a good chance you searched for a archive trap. Also if you run the Ashiok, Dream Render they can't activate the wishclaw talisman.
There are multiple mill players at my FNM, but they all seem to really like wishclaw talisman right now. So I am not too crazy about using this card.
Also I don't have MB surgical in the deck because it kind of hurts drown in the loch. If you are going to take cards early game out of the graveyard then drown in the loch isn't as good. Plus with Urza PO and/or Thopter foundry they can possibly respond to what you are targeting or tap an extra mana to trigger the sword.
You may be better off running extirpate in the deck or SB to deal with those decks.
EDIT: i will try it next tournament, but im not that convinced
EDIT 2: i also find your lack of 4 surgicals in main..... disturbing
again, i may have been wrong on the whole thought scour + wishclaw.... but still i dont see why would you run it instead of symetry... but i guess to each its own
surgical on main wins a lot of matches.... removing cards from gys when: 1. u are milling them for 10+ a pop and 2. need basically like 7 for drown at most... since its a t4 format with fetches... i would think drown of the loch being active is a thing you should be worried about... even with surgical main
I've tried it with a turbo-trap type deck with 4x Scheming Symmetry and 4x Thought Scour and aiming for a combo type kill, as well as slotting it as 2x in a more normal UB aggro/control type shell. Overall, Scheming Symmetry has won me games and rarely feels like a dead card. In the opening hand it feels pretty good with a Thought Scour, however in the end the issue is that it's a -1 in card advantage. Even if you start with a Thought Scour, you can fetch an Archive Trap turn 2 and then use Thought Scour to draw it, milling a total of 15 cards with essentially 2 cards. It feels better if you already have a Trap in your hand, and you can fetch something like a Visions of Beyond to refill your empty hand on the following turn. In theory it's capable of fetching a wide variety of answers, such as variable things from the sideboard, but I haven't found that comes up that often.
I think the card suffers from the overall drawback of mill which is that it doesn't quickly affect board state. Mill desperately needs more value cards that mill on top of doing other things to be truly competitive right now.
This is the turbo-trap type shell I have it running in:
1 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Field of Ruin
3 Watery Grave
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
2 Swamp
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Visions of Beyond
3 Mesmeric Orb
2 Fraying Sanity
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Scheming Symmetry
4 Thought Scour
4 Trapmaker's Snare
1 Darkness
4 Fatal Push
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Profane Memento
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Yahenni's Expertise
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Crypt Incursion
This is the more normal shell. I have a lot more fun playing it in the normal shell.
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Watery Grave
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Field of Ruin
3 Swamp
4 Archive Trap
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Hedron Crab
2 Crypt Incursion
2 Scheming Symmetry
3 Thought Scour
3 Mesmeric Orb
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Mission Briefing
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Echoing Truth
1 Profane Memento
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Collective Brutality
2 Extirpate
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Yahenni's Expertise
2 Bontu's Last Reckoning
1 Surgical Extraction
I'll probably go 3 Scheming Symmetry and 2 Thought Scours on the second deck though. Thoughts on improvements?
I will continue to test it but it's not a bad addition in my mind.
LET THE DISCUSSION BEGIN!!
Here we go. Jace's Phantasm has a big brother.
Might this shift the deck to primarily win with these two creatures and use mill as primarily disruption and move it to a secondary win con? Does the deck deemphasise certain mill cards and bring in more varied disruption as a consequence?
These are interesting times for UB Mill in Modern.
Legacy - WRG Lands, WR Shortcake, RR Burn, UBRG Delver
Vantress Gargoyle looks weaker than Jace's Phantasm to me.
I think it's less about which is weaker or stronger, and more about that we now have up to 8 copies of a cheap 5/x flier to attack with. Phantasm wins a significant number of games even though milling them out is the main strategy; doubling the tools for that alternate line of attack is a good thing. In my view it's play both, not either or. Maybe 4 phantasm and 2 or 3 gargoyle if space is an issue or the attacking plan is deemphasized in your build.
Legacy - WRG Lands, WR Shortcake, RR Burn, UBRG Delver
This is what I have built now and it seems to run pretty good.
3 Mesmeric Orb
2 Wishclaw Talisman
Creature (8)
4 Hedron Crab
4 Jace's Phantasm
Instant (21)
4 Archive Trap
2 Crypt Incursion
4 Drown in the Loch
2 Fatal Push
2 Mission Briefing
3 Thought Scour
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
Land (22)
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Field of Ruin
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Mystic Sanctuary
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Polluted Delta
2 Shelldock Isle
2 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
3 Collective Brutality
1 Crypt Incursion
1 Damnation
1 Echoing Truth
2 Extirpate
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Plague Engineer
3 Set Adrift
2 Surgical Extraction
care to explain your reasoning?
EDIT: i will try it next tournament, but im not that convinced
EDIT 2: i also find your lack of 4 surgicals in main..... disturbing
i actually proved it with x3 gargoyles... and i can say it improves inmensely some of the worst matches of the deck(burn and infect)... might go down to 2 for space issues... still a great card!
I think this card is fine if your going for more of mill aggro/temp style and not so controlling at the other UB mill decks.
again, i may have been wrong on the whole thought scour + wishclaw.... but still i dont see why would you run it instead of symetry... but i guess to each its own
surgical on main wins a lot of matches.... removing cards from gys when: 1. u are milling them for 10+ a pop and 2. need basically like 7 for drown at most... since its a t4 format with fetches... i would think drown of the loch being active is a thing you should be worried about... even with surgical main
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!