But for 2 mana you could just copy the spells, and have the ability to double up a 0 cast archive trap. That is something you can't do with Snapcaster, and unless you have other instant speed mill, he's not nearly as good.
You need to think in terms of the metagame. In particular, Snapcaster Mage has flash and blocks creatures like Geist of St. Traft that are otherwise a pain in the ass.
Oh, I thought he was talking about playing a spell that is countering a spell with counters on it as it comes into play, but I see you guys were just discussing whether he was flashing a creature with flash in order to flash a flashback or just flashing a creature with flash but not needing flash in order to flashback a spell without flash.
But you have to have the fork in hand and the spell. Its better to run caster. You can cast the spell and later cast it again. Its the right call. Which is more situational?
You need to think in terms of the metagame. In particular, Snapcaster Mage has flash and blocks creatures like Geist of St. Traft that are otherwise a pain in the ass.
Snapcaster having flash doesn't mean anything if you are using during your turn to flashback Glimpse or Mind Funeral. There are few targets to effectively use his flash ability with this deck.
You guy's are also missing that you can Twincast your opponent's spells. This alone has won me games. Hey, you want to storm combo me? I will just copy that Grapeshot right back at you, and mine resolves first.
Hmmm invisible stalker + sword of body and mind is the alt win con if the hand is bad, could only think of subbing them for tome scour, 1 U for 5 cards is kinda good.
Hahas, you share the same mind as me, I too think that the crabs are a waste of slots. They make a meh meh blocker thou =\
However I was thinking maybe a cheap U or B with regen could take up crab's slot such as Odious Trow, Drudge Skeletons or Kuro's Taken.
I would think that an alternate win-con shouldn't take so many slots. Maybe just some huge creature as a 4/3-of?
Some form of counter might be good instead of just having creatures for the sake of having creatures. Remand, Mana Leak, Spell Pierce etc are viable options. Plus, that way, you could bounce a Leyline with Into the Roil, Boomerang, Wipe Away etc and counter it when they drop it again later on. Then like the OP mentioned, include Extirpate or Surgical Extraction to remove the Leyline, for good.
Quote from DOLZero »
Snapcaster is a terrible idea. Twincast is much better since you can't flashback archive trap without having to pay 5.
Snapcaster having flash doesn't mean anything if you are using during your turn to flashback Glimpse or Mind Funeral. There are few targets to effectively use his flash ability with this deck.
You guy's are also missing that you can Twincast your opponent's spells. This alone has won me games. Hey, you want to storm combo me? I will just copy that Grapeshot right back at you, and mine resolves first.
Could just include both. 3-3 split or probably 4-2, which could be best. Personally, I'd rather have the 2/1 body than the Twincast but it wouldn't hurt to have both. It's a nice card to have, but you don't wanna see it too much, and in multiples especially. Plus, topdecking a Twincast is gonna hurt a lot more than a Snapcaster. With all the cheap mill we run, it's likely that we'll run out of cards in hand quite quick.
After playing with a bunch of friends, which I kept loosing
Either bad config or luck.
They recommend me some changes and I added in some input of mine.
Removed Arcane trap and Ghost Quarters as its is very situation and the opponent may not choose to "Search" the library. So thus not triggering the Arcane trap's Effect.
Added Vapor Snag for some spot removal, Yes the deck may lack mass removal. Still thinking of adding a few. But I shall see.
Added in more Sadistic Sacrament as a form of control, Since you can view their deck and exile 3 cards from their deck, Its way too good to say no.
Added in Leyline of the void, To deal with cards with flash black, dredge decks, annoying cards like Chandra's Phoenix, Tormod's crypt is to add in as a back up incase your so unlucky that you didn't get the leyline.
What? Removed Archive Trap? The best instant speed mill card available?
How about instead of Vapor Snag, you splash white for Path to Exile, which can also trigger Archive Trap.
Sadistic Sacrament is pretty bad too. It doesn't effect the board, your opponents hand, or really anything. You might be able to hurt a Gifts deck, or make a combo deck dig extra deep, but with this being a horrible top deck, you really need less or something else all together.
I am not sure how I like Leyline either. It's completely useless against many decks. Affinity, Twin, Jund, etc... don't care about their GY, and decks like Burn and Delver rarely are effected by it. Sure, it hurts Melira and Storm pretty badly, but other than that I just don't see it being main deck worthy.
I had a deck list around here somewhere that I am going to dig up:
The plan was to use Hedron Crab and Archive Trap to enable quick mills for minimal mana cost. Glimpse to hit when I get the chance to. Haunting Echoes is really my win card. I have won every game it resolved.
Muddle the Mixture is a bit of tech I was working with, enabling me to either have counter magic, or fetch an Isochome Scepter, Removal and Glimpse when needed. Transmute is a little clunky for the format though and the deck could probably be improved with something else.
That is no problem man. I just got a 1 mana removal spell, or 1 mana stone rain. Awesome. People are going to be running fetch lands, so you will almost always have ways to trigger them. The best part is that you can play control style with it and drop it at end of turn.
Snapcaster having flash doesn't mean anything if you are using during your turn to flashback Glimpse or Mind Funeral. There are few targets to effectively use his flash ability with this deck.
You guy's are also missing that you can Twincast your opponent's spells. This alone has won me games. Hey, you want to storm combo me? I will just copy that Grapeshot right back at you, and mine resolves first.
Both snap and twincast are great in the deck, right now i run a 4-2 snap twin split, ive tried both of them out but snap is just a way better top deck than twincast since it doesnt require me to have a hand when drawn. Also twincasting grapeshot is a terrible idea, storm doesnt trigger off of copying spells. The only super relevant spells to twincast from an opponent are path and maybe counter spells (cryptic is nice).
Also how is visions of beyond not a 4 of in everyones deck, did i miss a memo or something?
I just think mill decks can't work because the hate for Mill is the same as the hate people use for storm.
Cards like Rule of Law and Leyline of Sanctity are very common. If your gonna go against the grain and play a rogue deck in a sea of tier 1 netdecks, then play one that doesn't get hated out. If you are willing to endure the hate, you may as just play the Tier 1s. =/
I think its a big meta call, if theres not a lot of storm then youre golden, and even with storm hate just use the same tools they do, echoing truth does wonders against these
Its not just storm though, there are whole deck types that you cant beat with mill. Living end and Loam variants are pretty happy to have you dump their win cards into the gy for them. Emrakul and his reshuffling pals say hi too.
Its not just storm though, there are whole deck types that you cant beat with mill. Living end and Loam variants are pretty happy to have you dump their win cards into the gy for them. Emrakul and his reshuffling pals say hi too.
Yeah, thats why sometimes I still think that Sadistic Sacrament is better, removes the cards from the library, such cards like emarukul, elixir of immortality, etc.
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Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
I'm curious, why isn't Nephalia Drownyard being mentioned at all? The mana requirements of the deck should allow us to play some colorless mana producing lands, and having another Milling source would helps in pushing us across the finishing line. I don't see much harm playing a couple of Nephalia Drownyard for starters.
After playing with a bunch of friends, which I kept loosing
Either bad config or luck.
They recommend me some changes and I added in some input of mine.
Removed Arcane trap and Ghost Quarters as its is very situation and the opponent may not choose to "Search" the library. So thus not triggering the Arcane trap's Effect.
Added Vapor Snag for some spot removal, Yes the deck may lack mass removal. Still thinking of adding a few. But I shall see.
Added in more Sadistic Sacrament as a form of control, Since you can view their deck and exile 3 cards from their deck, Its way too good to say no.
Added in Leyline of the void, To deal with cards with flash black, dredge decks, annoying cards like Chandra's Phoenix, Tormod's crypt is to add in as a back up incase your so unlucky that you didn't get the leyline.
Please comment for improvements
Keep the trap and ghost quarters, seriously. Ghost quarters are great to remove duals and whatever other nonsense they got. And if they don't search for a land, you get a free Strip Mine? How is that bad?
And if you're already intending on splashing white, like DOLZero said, use Path instead. It has way more synergy with the traps. Again, if they choose not to search, you get a free and better Swords to Plowshares. Even better than Vapor Snag. The 1 life they lose don't matter cause you're planning to mill them.
Also, I think the idea is to mill ASAP instead of playing creatures and stuff to 'last longer'. Play some spot removal, couple sweepers, Snapcaster, maybe crab too, and mill away. Try to be less controlling and more aggressive with the milling; I think that's the way to go. Oh. I would advise against playing Sadistic Sacrament too; for the same reasons already given.
If you wanna be cool and stuff too, go for Maralen of the Mornsong. That way, they HAVE to search and you hit them with the trap. Set up with some twincasts in hand, get an archive trap, play Trapmaker's Snare too and just finish the game.
Crab to draw removal early before dropping Maralen for her to do some magic. Might be a little too slow, and could possible hurt you more than them, but it's fun. Played something like that casually long ago. Of course, they'd just search their deck for a removal to answer Maralen, so it'll probably NOT live to do anything. But if it does...
Yeah, thats why sometimes I still think that Sadistic Sacrament is better, removes the cards from the library, such cards like emarukul, elixir of immortality, etc.
Yeah but that cost 3 black and is basically unplayable.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
-regarding Snapcaster Mage.
Snapcaster having flash doesn't mean anything if you are using during your turn to flashback Glimpse or Mind Funeral. There are few targets to effectively use his flash ability with this deck.
You guy's are also missing that you can Twincast your opponent's spells. This alone has won me games. Hey, you want to storm combo me? I will just copy that Grapeshot right back at you, and mine resolves first.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
I would think that an alternate win-con shouldn't take so many slots. Maybe just some huge creature as a 4/3-of?
Some form of counter might be good instead of just having creatures for the sake of having creatures. Remand, Mana Leak, Spell Pierce etc are viable options. Plus, that way, you could bounce a Leyline with Into the Roil, Boomerang, Wipe Away etc and counter it when they drop it again later on. Then like the OP mentioned, include Extirpate or Surgical Extraction to remove the Leyline, for good.
Could just include both. 3-3 split or probably 4-2, which could be best. Personally, I'd rather have the 2/1 body than the Twincast but it wouldn't hurt to have both. It's a nice card to have, but you don't wanna see it too much, and in multiples especially. Plus, topdecking a Twincast is gonna hurt a lot more than a Snapcaster. With all the cheap mill we run, it's likely that we'll run out of cards in hand quite quick.
Either bad config or luck.
They recommend me some changes and I added in some input of mine.
3x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
3x Evolving Wilds
5x Island
5x Swamp
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
4x Mind Funeral
4x Sadistic Sacrament
4x Tome Scour
4x Thought Scour
4x Vapor Snag
3x Duress
4x Fog Bank
1x Phyrexian Obliterator
3x Snapcaster Mage
Removed Arcane trap and Ghost Quarters as its is very situation and the opponent may not choose to "Search" the library. So thus not triggering the Arcane trap's Effect.
Added Vapor Snag for some spot removal, Yes the deck may lack mass removal. Still thinking of adding a few. But I shall see.
Added in Go for the throat for more removal.
Added in more Sadistic Sacrament as a form of control, Since you can view their deck and exile 3 cards from their deck, Its way too good to say no.
Added in Leyline of the void, To deal with cards with flash black, dredge decks, annoying cards like Chandra's Phoenix, Tormod's crypt is to add in as a back up incase your so unlucky that you didn't get the leyline.
Please comment for improvements
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
How about instead of Vapor Snag, you splash white for Path to Exile, which can also trigger Archive Trap.
Sadistic Sacrament is pretty bad too. It doesn't effect the board, your opponents hand, or really anything. You might be able to hurt a Gifts deck, or make a combo deck dig extra deep, but with this being a horrible top deck, you really need less or something else all together.
I am not sure how I like Leyline either. It's completely useless against many decks. Affinity, Twin, Jund, etc... don't care about their GY, and decks like Burn and Delver rarely are effected by it. Sure, it hurts Melira and Storm pretty badly, but other than that I just don't see it being main deck worthy.
I had a deck list around here somewhere that I am going to dig up:
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
5x Island
2x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
4x Archive Trap
1x Doom Blade
4x Extirpate
1x Go for the Throat
3x Muddle the Mixture
2x Path to Exile
3x Trapmaker's Snare
3x Twincast
3x Damnation
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
3x Haunting Echoes
Artifact (1)
1x Isochron Scepter
Creature (4)
4x Hedron Crab
The plan was to use Hedron Crab and Archive Trap to enable quick mills for minimal mana cost. Glimpse to hit when I get the chance to. Haunting Echoes is really my win card. I have won every game it resolved.
Muddle the Mixture is a bit of tech I was working with, enabling me to either have counter magic, or fetch an Isochome Scepter, Removal and Glimpse when needed. Transmute is a little clunky for the format though and the deck could probably be improved with something else.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Both snap and twincast are great in the deck, right now i run a 4-2 snap twin split, ive tried both of them out but snap is just a way better top deck than twincast since it doesnt require me to have a hand when drawn. Also twincasting grapeshot is a terrible idea, storm doesnt trigger off of copying spells. The only super relevant spells to twincast from an opponent are path and maybe counter spells (cryptic is nice).
Also how is visions of beyond not a 4 of in everyones deck, did i miss a memo or something?
Cards like Rule of Law and Leyline of Sanctity are very common. If your gonna go against the grain and play a rogue deck in a sea of tier 1 netdecks, then play one that doesn't get hated out. If you are willing to endure the hate, you may as just play the Tier 1s. =/
Yeah, thats why sometimes I still think that Sadistic Sacrament is better, removes the cards from the library, such cards like emarukul, elixir of immortality, etc.
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Keep the trap and ghost quarters, seriously. Ghost quarters are great to remove duals and whatever other nonsense they got. And if they don't search for a land, you get a free Strip Mine? How is that bad?
And if you're already intending on splashing white, like DOLZero said, use Path instead. It has way more synergy with the traps. Again, if they choose not to search, you get a free and better Swords to Plowshares. Even better than Vapor Snag. The 1 life they lose don't matter cause you're planning to mill them.
Also, I think the idea is to mill ASAP instead of playing creatures and stuff to 'last longer'. Play some spot removal, couple sweepers, Snapcaster, maybe crab too, and mill away. Try to be less controlling and more aggressive with the milling; I think that's the way to go. Oh. I would advise against playing Sadistic Sacrament too; for the same reasons already given.
If you wanna be cool and stuff too, go for Maralen of the Mornsong. That way, they HAVE to search and you hit them with the trap. Set up with some twincasts in hand, get an archive trap, play Trapmaker's Snare too and just finish the game.
Rough idea of it:
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
5x Island
2x Marsh Flats
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
4x Archive Trap
1x Ravenous Trap
4x Trapmaker's Snare
4x Path to Exile
4x Extirpate
3x Twincast
4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
3x Haunting Echoes
Creature (6)
3x Maralen of the Mornsong
4x Hedron Crab
Crab to draw removal early before dropping Maralen for her to do some magic. Might be a little too slow, and could possible hurt you more than them, but it's fun. Played something like that casually long ago. Of course, they'd just search their deck for a removal to answer Maralen, so it'll probably NOT live to do anything. But if it does...
Yeah but that cost 3 black and is basically unplayable.
Emrakul 1, Mill decks 0.
That's why we are back to cards like Extirpate and Surgical Extraction.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W