MTG Salvation

There are now two Affinity players at my local place, which usually has 12 players on Mondays, so I can count on seeing one of them most nights. One is an excellent player who's been on the deck for the duration of Modern, and the other is pretty good. I'm having trouble with the matchup.

My standard board plan is to cut all 4 Mandrills, all 3 Thought Scour, and 2 Stubborn Denial to bring in 3 Huntmasters, 2 Anger of the Gods, 2 Destructive Revelry, 1 Engineered Explosives, and 1 card that's rotated a ton. I used to run Abrade as a catch-all, but it's not great removal for the matches where we want extra removal. My standard inclusion is Ancient Grudge, which is good against Affinity, but both of the locals are running Rest in Peace out of their boards, so sometimes I only get the front half of Grudge. Moreover, none of these options help against Etched Champion, which card has been the bane of my existence.

With 2/12 players on it, I feel like I can devote one spot in the board to a narrow hoser. My first thought was Shatterstorm, since it sets them back to the stone age, but it's sorcery speed and 4 mana is quite a bit, especially when I'm already bringing in 3 Huntmasters. So my thought was, since I'm playing a deck from 2015, maybe I grab some 2015-era sideboard tech that no one has cast in a long while: Hurkyl's Recall. It's way easier to cast, it's an instant so you can blow them out on the end of their turn, and against the Experimental Frenzy version these guys are running, they might not even be able to recast the cards. I've done some reading and understand that I have to wait until the last possible second to cast it, and build up a board ahead of time so I can win or come awfully close on the crackback.

Another thought is that it wrecks the Whir of Invention and mono-red prison decks that pop up from time to time. I often have trouble beating Bridge + Welding Jar, and this gets around that, just as Shatterstorm does, but is half the cost and pitches to Shoal if necessary.

Thoughts on Hurkyl's Recall in 2019?

Quote from MikePemulis »

Another thought is that it wrecks the Whir of Invention and mono-red prison decks that pop up from time to time. I often have trouble beating Bridge + Welding Jar, and this gets around that, just as Shatterstorm does, but is half the cost and pitches to Shoal if necessary.

Thoughts on Hurkyl's Recall in 2019?

I would just run a Storm tbh since this is such a niche case. Otherwise a Grudge should do the trick. This is one matchup where Anger is worlds worse than Pyroclasm, perhaps to the extent that you shouldn't be bringing in Anger at all. I actually like trample on the Mandrills and can see keeping one in if you have space.

I can squeeze a Mandrills or two in, I'm sure. Denial is pretty bad in this matchup, especially when trimming on Hoots anyway.

My problem with Pyroclasm is that outside of Affinity, Elves, and Pyromancer, it's useless. There is Dredge, Spirits, and Humans floating around here, and Pyroclasm is dead against those decks. So while I may gain a bit against Affinity with Pyroclasm, I lose another sweeper spot against a bunch of decks I want sweepers for.

Quote from MikePemulis »

I can squeeze a Mandrills or two in, I'm sure. Denial is pretty bad in this matchup, especially when trimming on Hoots anyway.

My problem with Pyroclasm is that outside of Affinity, Elves, and Pyromancer, it's useless. There is Dredge, Spirits, and Humans floating around here, and Pyroclasm is dead against those decks. So while I may gain a bit against Affinity with Pyroclasm, I lose another sweeper spot against a bunch of decks I want sweepers for.

I actually think Clasm is fine against the other fish decks. It's just not a sweeper the way Anger is. Often it's a Forked Bolt plus---if you can nab Hierarch and Thalia for instance, you're doing really well. Same vs. Spirits, where getting something like Maus + Chains will put you very far ahead. I think if you use it to round out your Bolt package rather than lean on it heavily as a sweeper, Clasm is great in any small creature matchup. I would advise trying a split to get a feel for how different the cards play and their roles in each matchup, especially if you are struggling with Affinity (Clasm is so good against this deck).

Alright, I'll try Pyroclasm out tonight. Also trying Hurkyl's Recall because I don't have a Shatterstorm, apparently.

Board is kind of a mess right now. EE and Delay are the catchalls. Dispel is probably never leaving my board because there is a ton of Jeskai and Burn that comes through my local, plus it's got game against stuff like Through the Breach. Huntmaster and Blood Moon take up lots of real estate, but I bring all 6 in with regularity. The Surgical is a hedge against Phoenix, which is an okay matchup, though Thing is a tough one to beat.

Of note, I was playing singles of Curious Obsession and Chart a Course, but have from time to time found them clunky. I hate drawing Obsession on a clear board, or seeing it on a Delver trigger, so that's been gone for a while. Chart took longer, but 2 mana is quite a bit. So I went with a second Tarfire and a Spell Pierce, although I've also thought about the fourth Thought Scour, or a third Sleight of Hand, or maybe a Spell Snare.

Jordan, have you been playing your UR Salamander list? How's that going? I've considered switching over since it seems like it's the perfect Shoal shell, but I think I would miss the green beef too much.

Yes, I have been on UR and love it so far. I hold that Pierce is amazing in this metagame and like how UR is not so dependent on the GY to do things. Plus we get to play a ton of effective hate in the SB (Sphere, Surgical, Moon) and occupy something of a unique meta niche (aggressive Snap-Bolt deck). I will say that it feels very different from UR if only because we don't block as much, not because we can't but because we don't have to; our aggressive fliers soar over the battlefield and win races with Snap-Bolt backing them up. I do miss that element of Temur, but again, it's something we have access to here that I tend not to employ as much because the other line is winninger. Ptera definitely feels huge in any case, as does Crackling (which has more of a Shadow vibe).

Here is my current list:

Some changes I have made since the article include adding Looting and Chart to speed up Pteramander, swapping the 4th Crackling side with a 2nd Clique, and trimming one Pierce for a mainboard Flame Slash.

I am thinking of testing a Threads of Disloyalty over the Slash in the board for the Phoenix matchups. Now that they are starting to run Pteramander in addition to Thing in the Ice, and since BG Rock seems to be doing okay and UR is as cold as ever to Tarmogoyf, Threads is starting to look like a sane option again.

I actually find the UR Phoenix matchup quite good with this deck. Shoal and Simic Charm are great against them, though a resolved Thing is an issue.

I played against Phoenix tonight, going 2-1, and lost the game where I was able to Extract the birds because I got stormed out by two active Pyromancer Ascensions with Bolt and Gut Shot. Pretty ugly game, but games 1 and 3 were more orderly: Pierce hits a Looting, Shoal Shoals a Thing, and Goyf beats in.

Lost 1-2 to Dredge tonight. Lost game one, which is pretty standard I think, and game two I Shoaled their Looting and they didn't do much. Game three I was in good position but got triple (!) Creeping Chilled, giving the Bloodghasts haste and putting it way out of reach for me. I hate Creeping Chill.

I also had a bye and our turnout sucked tonight, so I went 2-1. Played a pickup game with the local Thoughtseize specialist playing BG, and came to the conclusion that 3 Huntmasters might be one too many. All the Jeskai players have either migrated to different decks or aren't coming anymore, so relying on Path to ramp isn't reliable. And Mandrills, the card I often trim for Huntmaster, is great against BGx anyway. So I thought that I'd tear a page form your book and replace one of my Huntmasters with a Flame Slash, a card I don't love, but that has game against a ton of the current field. It's odd, because the backbone of my standard "grindy package" has been 3 Huntmasters and 3 Moons for months now, so it's weird to only see 5 cards there. I thought about trimming a Moon, but that card is a little easier to cast, is game over against Amulet, Titan Shift, and GDS, plus it helps with Tron and control. Plus mine are ancient ones from The Dark and I'm loathe to cut beautiful cards like those.

Hey gang,

I've been watching a lot of RUG Delver games online, and it seems like there are 2 styles of deck in this archetype (3 if you count Faithless looting builds, but I'm over looting these days, I picked up this deck because I wanted to avoid looting decks) - Disrupting Shoal builds, and Traverse the Ulvenwald builds.

Disrupting Shoal decks seem to run a critical mass of blue spells, running fewer possible burn spells in the main deck. They seem intent on sticking a creature early then using counter magic to hold off the opponent.

Traverse the Ulvenwald builds seem to run 1-2 copies of Traverse, plus a few copies of Mishra's Bauble, it opens up slots for some more maindeck burn to control the field until we stick a creature, often finding one with Traverse. It seems to be quite flexible and toolbox-y. Also Bauble feeds Goyf.

What are people's thoughts on the pros and cons of these two archetypes? What would fit better into the shifting meta of more people playing Burn, Phoenix, and Dredge?

Best,
CatParty

Hi Cat looks like you are in the midst of how this deck has evolved since we lost gitaxian probe. With probe, we all played shoal builds with a traverse side board and bedlam revelers to help with a card advantage engine vs BGx decks. Then as Eldrazi made a comeuppance we needed to make our goyfs bigger, so we moved to main boarding traverse for our sorcery count and added bauble, Then dredge came back and we had yet another creature in reveler that utilized the graveyard and it is just too risky having Goyf, hoots, and revelers all dependant on the graveyard when the hate for graveyard decks reached all time high.

Right now between shadow, burn, and phoenix, I'm happy enough with the shoal build, This deck certainly makes the most of either card regardless of the build you choose.

Losing probe was a nail in the coffin for this deck literally 8 different ways, since then, we really haven't seen a card printed that could help our biggest problems, As I see it we need a playable instant speed removal spell that hits for 5 or a faster non conditional catch all counter spell. Then we MIGHT have a chance at being a pretty darn good deck again.

Perhaps to answer you slightly more direct, this deck is supposed to be tempo deck, traverse might do 3 or 4 things that probe used to do but at best it finds us a timely snapcaster at worst helps with our low land count... Neither of these things win us a game right out.
Since Fatal Push was printed I think it's even MORE important to keep our creatures protected, and it costs us a spell plus card advantage to do so. Plus Path is seeing more play again to deal with phoenix. So shoal can be good for us here.

So really it's become a deck of pick your poison. Regardless, it's still the most fun deck I've ever played and I'm not going anywhere as a result of it.

All the best.

Cat: I've played both the Traverse / Bauble / Looting build and the Shoal / tons of 'bad' blue cards build, and I much prefer and have had more success with the latter. After a while, the Traverse build felt a little bit like a midrange deck that played Traverse mostly to hit land drops, and it just didn't work for me. In the Shoal build, I'm only running 6-7 sorceries, so I get to hold up removal and counters much more easily. I also think it has a better game 1 in general, especially against things like big mana, combo, and Burn.

The Traverse builds certainly have more late game power, but I also found that by casting Traverse game 1, you all but ensured your opponent would bring in the heavy duty grave hate. I like to cut two Mandrills and fill in with Huntmasters in those grindy sideboard games, making myself less and more susceptible to Rest in Peace and pals. I board out some number of Shoals, Thought Scours, and Mandrills in the grindy matchups, but I generally feel okay in them. I know back when Jordan was playing the deck regularly, he struggled mightily with BGx and especially Abzan. I haven't played against Abzan in forever, but I feel okay about my Jund matchup and pretty good about the matchup against Rock. Those are ostensibly the matchups where Traverse helps, but to me, it's losing too much tempo in the early game compared to dropping a threat and protecting it on turn 1 or 2. The games are tense, and the card disadvantage is real, but Snapcaster recoups some of that, and like I said, you tend to cut some Shoals in the matchups that go long.

And as far as burn spells in the main deck: I play 4 Bolts and 2 Tarfires. I've tried other things in the second Tarfire slot, including a Flame Slash today, but after losing a game where Tarfire could've gone to the face for lethal and Slash sat in my hand as I died, I keep wanting the advantages of instant speed, any target, and Goyf-growing Tarfire.

Ob: I agree that we're a spell or two away from world domination. After playing a bunch of games tonight, I think I've settled on Dismember in the board as the heavy-duty removal spell, because as you note, we need to be able to deal with x/5s, and Simic Charm isn't always enough. Flame Slash is fine but misses standard Goyfs, one of the reasons for wanting the spell in the first place, and Gurmag Angler. Roast misses the entirety of Spirits, Mantis Rider and Freebooter in Humans, and Colonnade / the angels in UWx decks.* Forked Bolt, another card I've liked in the past, is good in some metagames, but pretty redundant unless Abzan Collected Company and Elves take over the meta. I've even thought about Lightning Axe out of the board, but it seems so bad, especially when in many of these games, you're topdecking. Two mana, instant speed, 5 damage to target creature. Please. A firmer late game counter would be nice, like actual Counterspell would earn a spot in my board for sure. Preordain would be lovely, but it's not as pressing as the other needs, I don't think.


* Dismember against UWx seems loose and I'm not sure it's worth the space. I run Blood Moons against Jeskai and UW to shut off Colonnade, give them another must-answer permanent to deal with, and choke the greedy "want UUU and WW by turn 4 or 5" keeps they have.

Yesterday I was reading an article about how arclight might adapt in the near future and the author says beacon bolt is a house against thoughtseize decks. He admits to it being clunky (which is especially clunky for us then). But there IS a margin of merit. We don't need snapcaster if we scour it over. We exile a number of cards for sure. It should answer a deaths shadow at any stage of the game. (As we all know bouncing a shadow instead of being able to kill it sucks)

Hardest part is accepting it's sorcery speed at 3 mana I suppose. As for being ANOTHER card that looks at the graveyard... All these other graveyard decks seem to be doing just fine despite ALL the hate. I don't know what to say. *shrug* man.... Collision//colossus.... So close to being the most amazing card..

EDIT, THAT being said, depending on how things start to shape up. I suppose Jordan's idea of threads of loyalty might pull double duty in this spot anyway... Just need to play test some stuff I guess

Quote from ObnixilisNate »

Yesterday I was reading an article about how arclight might adapt in the near future and the author says beacon bolt is a house against thoughtseize decks. He admits to it being clunky (which is especially clunky for us then). But there IS a margin of merit. We don't need snapcaster if we scour it over. We exile a number of cards for sure. It should answer a deaths shadow at any stage of the game. (As we all know bouncing a shadow instead of being able to kill it sucks)

Hardest part is accepting it's sorcery speed at 3 mana I suppose. As for being ANOTHER card that looks at the graveyard... All these other graveyard decks seem to be doing just fine despite ALL the hate. I don't know what to say. *shrug* man.... Collision//colossus.... So close to being the most amazing card..

EDIT, THAT being said, depending on how things start to shape up. I suppose Jordan's idea of threads of loyalty might pull double duty in this spot anyway... Just need to play test some stuff I guess

I actually singled out Beacon as a useful tech for Temur and UR decks when GRN was being spoiled. Three mana doesn't much matter against slower decks like BGx, where it would indeed shine. It's a little more suspect against Shadow and Phoenix (which has Thing as a crucial target), as those decks can punish you for playing such a slow card (the former might Stub it, and the latter can jut race you).

Of note is that neither of those decks plays heavy-duty grave hate. Nihil Spellbomb a possibility for Shadow, but not a common include as far as I know. And Beacon is way too slow against faster creature decks. All that combines to make me wonder if Spite of Mogis isn't worthwhile again. The decks that ruin it with Rest in Peace are not likely to call for extra creature removal anyway. The only MU I can think of where we want all the removal possible but also may get hit with RIP is Spirits, which I think is already pretty good for us (and again, Beacon is a huge liability there because of Wanderer and Queller).

Now that's exciting talk! I'm curious how long until chalice wheels back around with shadow, Phoenix, and burn all doing well

Congratulations to @MikePemulis, as he is the winner of the Temur sweepstakes! He will be the proud owner of a shiny new card of his choosing of the previously mentioned pile of foil Temur cards.

The only card that he/she cannot choose is the Expedition Engineered Explosives, as that card has been gifted to ashtonkutcher.

I will be in contact mikepemulis, and I'll be shipping both cards out after the GP. Congrats!

Nice.

Quote from ashtonkutcher »

Of note is that neither of those decks plays heavy-duty grave hate. Nihil Spellbomb a possibility for Shadow, but not a common include as far as I know. And Beacon is way too slow against faster creature decks. All that combines to make me wonder if Spite of Mogis isn't worthwhile again. The decks that ruin it with Rest in Peace are not likely to call for extra creature removal anyway. The only MU I can think of where we want all the removal possible but also may get hit with RIP is Spirits, which I think is already pretty good for us (and again, Beacon is a huge liability there because of Wanderer and Queller).

I had the same wonderings about Beacon Bolt and Spite of Mogis, too. Spite feels pretty good, but after getting Leylined by the local BG player when I had boarded it in, I'm pretty reluctant. Beacon Bolt is slow, but as you say, is mostly for decks that aren't beating us super quickly anyway. My worry is Spirits, and I've had very different results playing against Spirits than you have, apparently. I consider Spirits, Humans, and Merfolk among this deck's worst matchups, whereas to me, BGx just isn't too awful much of a worry. Part of that may be experience, as BGx has shown up at my local places pretty much every week I've been on this deck, whereas Humans was limited to one player locally, and the few Spirits players we have are flakey and seldom show up. When I started playing this deck online a few months ago, I got assaulted by Humans and Spirits, and it's never really turned around. I seem to remember your older articles writing about Merfolk like it was a major player for you locally a few years back, so I imagine you have tons of reps against it. What's your general plan against Aether Vial decks?

Quote from ObnixilisNate »

Now that's exciting talk! I'm curious how long until chalice wheels back around with shadow, Phoenix, and burn all doing well

I think Chalice is probably a house right now. I imagine Colorless Eldrazi is pretty well positioned, which almost makes me regret selling the deck, but I just didn't have that much fun playing games with it.

Quote from RikutheWizard »

Congratulations to @MikePemulis, as he is the winner of the Temur sweepstakes! He will be the proud owner of a shiny new card of his choosing of the previously mentioned pile of foil Temur cards.

The only card that he/she cannot choose is the Expedition Engineered Explosives, as that card has been gifted to ashtonkutcher.

I will be in contact mikepemulis, and I'll be shipping both cards out after the GP. Congrats!

Sweet! Thanks so much for running the giveaway.



Any thoughts on how the proposed mulligan rule changes things? One thought is that it makes combo decks better, which could move the meta into a position where Shoal/Denial/Leak are great again. I don't like the proposed change, myself, but as someone who's had to go to 5 all too often lately, maybe I'm just wrong on this.

I find Vial decks easy to race, both on Temur and UR, so long as we manage our Bolts well and break up their synergies. Our creatures are just better individually, and stuff like Snap-Bolt can shut them out of the game. Their ways over this plan (i.e. Collected Company) don't stand up to countermagic, and we can randomly manascrew them with Grudge or Moon after siding. Not to mention damage-based sweepers...

Here are my thoughts on the mulligan rule, especially as it relates to Colorless Eldrazi Stompy, as well as a tech update for UR Delver: http://modernnexus.com/manders-mulligans-lightning-london-linguine/

A snippet:

Essentially, the more combination- or card-dependent the deck, the better it becomes under the London Mulligan. And the more easily disrupted it is by played hosers, the worse it becomes under the London Mulligan. These numbers do not always correlate; some decks, like BG Rock and Burn, mulligan very little. The former is resilient enough to be mostly unaffected by the London (no net change), while the latter now has to worry about increased odds of opponents finding life-gaining silver bullets (negative net change). Alternatively, consider decks that mulligan heavily, such as Cheeri0s and Colorless Eldrazi Stompy. The former is soft to enemy hate (no net change), while the latter resists enemy hate (positive net change). Unsurprisingly, I’m mostly interested in the latter.

I'd say UR Delver experiences a net positive change, if only a small one, as it really does like opening its namesake threat. Temur is closer to neutral or even net negative, since it's so soft to graveyard hate.

You guys think they are just fishing an idea to "help" make the game more interactive?

Quote from ObnixilisNate »

You guys think they are just fishing an idea to "help" make the game more interactive?

I was thinking this myself. With the new rule it seems like silver bullets will become more prominent - or at least more reliable - shutting down some of the more linear decks in the format, allowing for interactive decks to gain more of a foothold.

Now another question (again, sorry for all the newb Qs, I'm just really green, and excited about this deck. I get to play it for the first time on Monday night!):

What are people's thought on Opt in this deck? It seems, in my mind, that the card would be great to dig for some instant speed answers. I know Thought Scour sort of takes this spot for us, since it overall is better for the mission of this deck, but it seems to lack the "searchabililty" that Opt provides.

I'm not suggesting I want to cut Thought Scour. Right now I run 4 flex slots. Those slots contain 2 Sleight of Hand, 1 Curious Obsession, and 1 Vapor Snag. The Sleights and the Obsession help feed Goyf, but I've seen lists that don't necessarily include these cards. It also seems like Curious Obsession might sometimes be a dead card in our hand. Is there any logic in running Opt in place of these cards? It seems like being able to dig for a counterspell off Opt is some of the reactive/interactive play that this deck wants, but I could be completely wrong.

Best,
CatParty

Your reasoning is totally sound.. We play serum visions to keep up our sorcery count for goyf. As is, while a 4/5 goyf is inevitable I know for myself every now and then I find getting goyf there almost tricky in a timely manner... This was another reason to run Traverse. As I mentioned before, Our deck manages to utilize the card arguably the best.

Adding opt to serum visions isn't what this deck needs, at best we played with Faithless Looting as well which helps our deck dig for answers we need and rid our hand of cards we don't.. We aren't lacking fuel by any means but potent enough cards help turn a corner when we get behind. This is ESPECIALLY true when facing creatures with 4 toughness or more.