I have historically loved Vedalken Shackles but wanted to try a tighter list that was more tempo than control.
I think electrolyze has been awesome up to now but is soon to become mediocre in a world where Zoo is running rampant, lingering souls is seeing little play and faeries are kept in check (it's not even as good as you would think vs them anyways).
I have always been unimpressed with izzet charm when I played UR Fae and RUG Eternal Command last PTQ season.
No remands?
I would cut relic and run tormod's crypt, relic hurts our own snaps and goyfs too much.
I really want to run 2-4 Tectonic Edge to make our spell pierce/mana leaks more relevant, dealing with collonades and keeping people off cryptic mana but I am having a hard time fitting enough red/green sources while not taking too much damage from shocks.
I'm not sure if 17 blue sources, 12 red and 11 green sources cuts it. You typically want 14 sources for turn 1 plays (red/blue), 13 sources for turn 2 goyf and 19 sources for double blue on turn 3 for clique/snap + spell.
17 blue is fine since the serum visions and remands cantrip enough counting for enough blue sources. I need 2 more red and 2 more green. I guess I could take out both Tec edges and replace them with a mountain and forest each =(
Has anyone tried playing tec edge as a mana denial strategy like RUG Delver in Legacy?
It's been running pretty smoothly. I like shackles a lot against decks like pod, anything playing goyfs or bobs. It's even pretty good against twin. I also like elctrolyze. It's good against pod affinity and can always go to the done if needed. Izzet charm is still in the testing phase it is just so versatile. I can never really see it being dead. Remand is a fine card it's just not really something I want to be playing. I'm not sure why. It never feels like it does enough. I might be wrong though.
4 Spell Snare seems like a lot! I am unsure about your meta so it might be good for you but I dont think I would ever run more than 2 in the main.
I have been thinking about other "win cons" for this deck. How do you feel about Mystic Snake, Venser, Shaper Savant, or potentially Huntmaster of the Fells. I am not sure how much I am liking Shackles at this point, or Izzet Charm.
I was originally running a 2/2 split between spellsnare and spell pierce and 4 snags but looking at the Pro Tour, the only delver deck that had over 18 points ran 4 snares. The Blue Moon decks also ran 4 snares. The 3 UWR Midrange decks had 3, 3 and 2 copies of spell snare respectively. There must be something to it and it could possibly be better than vapor snag. So I'm going to test it and see how it goes. I def could see going to 3 snares and 3 snags or 2 snares and 4 snags.
I was originally running a 2/2 split between spellsnare and spell pierce and 4 snags but looking at the Pro Tour, the only delver deck that had over 18 points ran 4 snares. The Blue Moon decks also ran 4 snares. The 3 UWR Midrange decks had 3, 3 and 2 copies of spell snare respectively. There must be something to it and it could possibly be better than vapor snag. So I'm going to test it and see how it goes. I def could see going to 3 snares and 3 snags or 2 snares and 4 snags.
That is true, but you have to always take pro tour lists with a grain of salt. They are all trying to play for the meta and next level each other. I do see what you're saying. There are lots of good targets for it do maybe it does warrant more spots.
What do you think about my four drop guys ideas? I am mostly using them as cryptic commands that also attack. The most common mode is counter draw. Venser and mystic snake say counter attack. Seems reasonable right?
@TakeYourShoesOff
I haven't play tested snare enough but when I did it was usually as a 2 of and it was fine. Spell pierce always seemed just ok but necessary since it could stop a turn 2 pod/lili. But now that DRS is out of the format there will be a lot more 2 drops coming down on turn 2 and if Fae ever becomes a thing, BB and SSS is what we mainly care about. VoR is also a problem for us and it takes care of that nicely and snaps are becoming increasingly more popular. It also stops all the leaks/remands in the blue decks running around and helix in the UWR and Zoo decks. The more I think about it, the more I like snare as a 3/4-of, but I'll test to make sure.
I don't really like playing 4 drops in a deck that is trying to run 20/21 lands while placing a threat early and just tempo-ing them out. Don't get me wrong, I love Venser and have tried to jam him in every blue deck I've played in modern over the last few years but unfortunately I don't think he is all that good here. Just too mana intensive and snapcaster/remaand or snapcaster/snag does his job better.
So I guess no one is running this deck anymore except for TakeYourShoesOff and myself?
I have the cards and have been thinking of giving this one a try in paper sometime, any input from me would be fairly baseless at the moment though as I haven't had a chance to do much testing at all!
I do know that based on my meta, blood moon will probably be played in the main. RUG Splinter Twin is the other deck I'm looking at potentially, and I find there seems to be quite a bit of overlap between the two decks, especially if you side out the combo in games 2-3 and go for tempo.
The board for RUG Delver almost always included 3-4 Blood Moons and maybe a couple Shackles in the 75. Over time I found myself just preferring to play with that combination of cards compared to the Delver plan which is the answer to the poster asking if anyone else still played it.
The board for RUG Delver almost always included 3-4 Blood Moons and maybe a couple Shackles in the 75. Over time I found myself just preferring to play with that combination of cards compared to the Delver plan which is the answer to the poster asking if anyone else still played it.
Sure but that is less good against twin and storm that put up great numbers at the pro tour. With delver we get effecient real threats and can put pressure and easily win those matchs while being able to boated into the blood moon.deck.
So I guess no one is running this deck anymore except for TakeYourShoesOff and myself?
I played RUG Delver for a long time when it was good, but months ago I switched to Splinter Twin, and weeks ago to RUG Splinter Twin (which Patrick Dickmannn refined with the Oozes - I didn't use them before). The thing is, Delver is not a good creature in Modern, at all. Very inconsistent, and has nothing to do with the powerhouse it is in Legacy.
This deck sure has nutdraws like a T2 Delver flip with Mana Leak backup, but the amount of times that they'll just kill your creature while tapped out, or amount of times when the Aberration won't flip till T5, is staggering.
Would love nothing more that seeing Ponder unbanned to revive this deck tho
I tried that build as soon as Nacatl got unbanned. Decent and has some very, very fast draws which are unbeatable: Turn 1 Delver, flip, Turn 2 attack, play Nacatl, Bolt random dude. Turn 3, attack (opponent at 11 or less already, lol )holding up Mana Leak, gg.
But the mana is disastrously inconsistent and you take tons of damage from it, even with the Helixes to mitigate it. It's an option I guess!
I tried that build as soon as Nacatl got unbanned. Decent and has some very, very fast draws which are unbeatable: Turn 1 Delver, flip, Turn 2 attack, play Nacatl, Bolt random dude. Turn 3, attack (opponent at 11 or less already, lol )holding up Mana Leak, gg.
But the mana is disastrously inconsistent and you take tons of damage from it, even with the Helixes to mitigate it. It's an option I guess!
Yeah, though at that point I wonder if you'd almost be better of playing 4-5c zoo with some counters, snapcaster and geist. It sounds quite similar in many ways actually. At least the lines between the two decks would become a bit blurred.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Other Permanents:
2 Vedalken Shackles
Spells:
2 Burst Lightning
2 Cryptic Command
2 Izzet Charm
2 Electrolyze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
2 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
6 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Blood Moon
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Obstinate Baloth (could potentially change)
1 Batterskull
2 Combust
2 Relic of Progenitus
How has that list been playing for you?
I have historically loved Vedalken Shackles but wanted to try a tighter list that was more tempo than control.
I think electrolyze has been awesome up to now but is soon to become mediocre in a world where Zoo is running rampant, lingering souls is seeing little play and faeries are kept in check (it's not even as good as you would think vs them anyways).
I have always been unimpressed with izzet charm when I played UR Fae and RUG Eternal Command last PTQ season.
No remands?
I would cut relic and run tormod's crypt, relic hurts our own snaps and goyfs too much.
I really want to run 2-4 Tectonic Edge to make our spell pierce/mana leaks more relevant, dealing with collonades and keeping people off cryptic mana but I am having a hard time fitting enough red/green sources while not taking too much damage from shocks.
Revised List:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorceries (6)
4 Serum Visions
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Vapor Snag
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
4 Island
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Combust
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Sowing Salt
2 Tormod's Crypt
I'm not sure if 17 blue sources, 12 red and 11 green sources cuts it. You typically want 14 sources for turn 1 plays (red/blue), 13 sources for turn 2 goyf and 19 sources for double blue on turn 3 for clique/snap + spell.
17 blue is fine since the serum visions and remands cantrip enough counting for enough blue sources. I need 2 more red and 2 more green. I guess I could take out both Tec edges and replace them with a mountain and forest each =(
Has anyone tried playing tec edge as a mana denial strategy like RUG Delver in Legacy?
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
Sorceries (6)
4 Serum Visions
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Vapor Snag
4 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Remand
4 Mana Leak
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
5 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pillar of Flame
2 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Combust
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Sowing Salt
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Spell Snare seems like a lot! I am unsure about your meta so it might be good for you but I dont think I would ever run more than 2 in the main.
I have been thinking about other "win cons" for this deck. How do you feel about Mystic Snake, Venser, Shaper Savant, or potentially Huntmaster of the Fells. I am not sure how much I am liking Shackles at this point, or Izzet Charm.
I was originally running a 2/2 split between spellsnare and spell pierce and 4 snags but looking at the Pro Tour, the only delver deck that had over 18 points ran 4 snares. The Blue Moon decks also ran 4 snares. The 3 UWR Midrange decks had 3, 3 and 2 copies of spell snare respectively. There must be something to it and it could possibly be better than vapor snag. So I'm going to test it and see how it goes. I def could see going to 3 snares and 3 snags or 2 snares and 4 snags.
That is true, but you have to always take pro tour lists with a grain of salt. They are all trying to play for the meta and next level each other. I do see what you're saying. There are lots of good targets for it do maybe it does warrant more spots.
What do you think about my four drop guys ideas? I am mostly using them as cryptic commands that also attack. The most common mode is counter draw. Venser and mystic snake say counter attack. Seems reasonable right?
I haven't play tested snare enough but when I did it was usually as a 2 of and it was fine. Spell pierce always seemed just ok but necessary since it could stop a turn 2 pod/lili. But now that DRS is out of the format there will be a lot more 2 drops coming down on turn 2 and if Fae ever becomes a thing, BB and SSS is what we mainly care about. VoR is also a problem for us and it takes care of that nicely and snaps are becoming increasingly more popular. It also stops all the leaks/remands in the blue decks running around and helix in the UWR and Zoo decks. The more I think about it, the more I like snare as a 3/4-of, but I'll test to make sure.
I don't really like playing 4 drops in a deck that is trying to run 20/21 lands while placing a threat early and just tempo-ing them out. Don't get me wrong, I love Venser and have tried to jam him in every blue deck I've played in modern over the last few years but unfortunately I don't think he is all that good here. Just too mana intensive and snapcaster/remaand or snapcaster/snag does his job better.
Although as a tangent, I used to play this UR Wizard vial deck as my pet deck that was semi-competitive and hell of fun (it ran magus of the moon, snapcaster mage, voidmage prodigy, Vedalken Æthermage, vendilion clique, venser, shaper savant, spellstutter sprite, with sower of temptation and glen elendra archmage in the sb along with aether vial, counters and burn). Probably could of gone grixis and added bob. Anyways, back to RUG Delver.
I have the cards and have been thinking of giving this one a try in paper sometime, any input from me would be fairly baseless at the moment though as I haven't had a chance to do much testing at all!
I do know that based on my meta, blood moon will probably be played in the main. RUG Splinter Twin is the other deck I'm looking at potentially, and I find there seems to be quite a bit of overlap between the two decks, especially if you side out the combo in games 2-3 and go for tempo.
That's a completely different deck....
Sure but that is less good against twin and storm that put up great numbers at the pro tour. With delver we get effecient real threats and can put pressure and easily win those matchs while being able to boated into the blood moon.deck.
I played RUG Delver for a long time when it was good, but months ago I switched to Splinter Twin, and weeks ago to RUG Splinter Twin (which Patrick Dickmannn refined with the Oozes - I didn't use them before). The thing is, Delver is not a good creature in Modern, at all. Very inconsistent, and has nothing to do with the powerhouse it is in Legacy.
This deck sure has nutdraws like a T2 Delver flip with Mana Leak backup, but the amount of times that they'll just kill your creature while tapped out, or amount of times when the Aberration won't flip till T5, is staggering.
Would love nothing more that seeing Ponder unbanned to revive this deck tho
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
3 Serum Visions
4 Spell Snare
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
1 Counterflux
1 Dispel
2 Negate
3 Spellskite
2 Volcanic Fallout
"Oh look, Nacatl is back...I guess we have our Nimble Mongoose now."
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Big Johnny.
I'll have to try this. Although we can't play blood moon now which is unfortunate.
But the mana is disastrously inconsistent and you take tons of damage from it, even with the Helixes to mitigate it. It's an option I guess!
Yeah, though at that point I wonder if you'd almost be better of playing 4-5c zoo with some counters, snapcaster and geist. It sounds quite similar in many ways actually. At least the lines between the two decks would become a bit blurred.
Riotous. Looks very explosive. Leak/Path nonbo probably not even a thing since the clock is so fast.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy