I agree that Bauble is going to be good if Goose is playable. I think it's a big if at this point, and really depends on what we get for removal in this set.
I think running 4 Shoal 4 Force is too much, personally.
I don't think so. It's gonna allow us to play our proactive game while also being reactive. Cutting a substantial amount of lands gives us the gas to keep up with their curve and whatnot. So freakin stoked. FoN also on 3cmc is sweeeeet for shoaling 3mana creatures that come up here or there.
As long as you don't flood, and you shouldn't with the amount of card selection given here, you can keep up and pitch cards as needed.
I do think Mandrills is still better than Mangoose, though. But the plan Baubles + Scours as enablers, eight Forces, that's what I definitely like.
I don't know if jamming some Stubs would be better. Maybe it is, but who knows.
This is the question we should be assessing. Stubborn Denial vs FoN. That kinda determines if we play Monkeys or Mongoose's, since one enables the other.
Even without going that far, if you play Monkeys you may prefer something like 3 Stubs and 2 Force of Negation (and cut, like, one Snag, just saying). Having at least six turn zero answers to Map, Looting, Chalice and such is worth discussing.
Very true, but I'd really advocate Sleight of Hand over Opt. Having 8 sorceries for Goyf is important, and digging as much as possible is better than the instant speed on Opt.
Yeah it makes perfect sense to play scour, but I always felt scour was the worst card in hand. It just fills the graveyard and draws a random card, the way the deck is designed it will eventually get threshold and all the while all cards give benefits and options apart from only filling the grave.
But yeah it might make all the difference hitting threshold a turn earlier, it will take some testing to figure out the best rug list after the new cards come.
I hate Scour, but it's definitely a necessary evil while playing Delve or Threshold cards.
By the way, I'm also inclined to test Pteramander in the Tarmogoyf slot. The flying clause is huge, and instead of conflicting with Mandrills it needs the same work we already do to grow Nimble. Maybe it's too cute, but I'll definitely try it.
I think Simic Charm isn't playable in a deck with Nimble Mongoose. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you'd want to run a little lower to the ground, and only having 8 creatures for Charm to target with the Giant Growth seems silly.
Jotting down some deck ideas at school today, I think Faithless Looting is a better Sorcery than Traverse the Ulvenwald in this deck. Looting would allow us to run more 1-ofs that are situationally useful in the main, like Dismember or Roast, and also allow us to ditch Force and Spell Pierce / Stubborn Denial in creature matchups.
Mongoose makes us weaker to grave hate, but Force allows us to counter it more easily, and Mongoose coming down on turn 1 makes us better able to hold up mana from then on out.
Maybe a pair of Baubles or so is a consideration over a Thought Scour and something else. Maybe 2 Snapcasters is too many. I would run the 18th land out of the board in this case, I think.
The issue with Mongoose is going to be keeping the ground clear in front of it. And while we've got access to all sorts of burn for small creatures, getting past opposing Goyfs / Anglers / etc is going to be an issue. I also think I might miss the trample Mandrills gives, although I think sneaking in early damage with Mongoose might be worth it.
(EDIT: For what it's worth, I think Mandrills slots right into this list, if Goose isn't good. I think lots will depend on the removal situation. I'm just happy to have options.)
Lots to think about here. This week is by far the biggest shot in the arm the deck has gotten in years.
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Time will certainly tell if I'm wrong.. But I think mongoose gets a TON worse not having the powerful tempo cards like wasteland, stifle and actual force that legacy has access to. I think it will just get bricked and die in combat personally, I remain on the train of thought that all we need is a damn good instant non conditional removal spell.
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Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan Legacy: RG Lands EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
In my experience, as long as Thought Scour doesn't mill any of our creatures, it's an amazing card. More often than not I'm skimming unwanted lands off the top and drawing into more gas. The only time it feels bad is if we lose a creature we've been digging for. Otherwise I think it's one of the best cards in this deck. How else do we get to cast a turn 2 Hooting Mandrills (arguably the most "powerful" thing this deck can do)?
Time will certainly tell if I'm wrong.. But I think mongoose gets a TON worse not having the powerful tempo cards like wasteland, stifle and actual force that legacy has access to. I think it will just get bricked and die in combat personally, I remain on the train of thought that all we need is a damn good instant non conditional removal spell.
I think the biggest point here is wasteland. Card does insane things for the Legacy format. Similarly with daze.
1. Nimble Mongoose might not even be good, so all this might be for nothing. Only testing will tell, and I suspect that there are lots of factors with Mandrills that aren't obvious.
2. Trample is a thing.
3. How soon can we be attacking for 3 with Mongoose? Even running a full set of Thought Scour, I don't think I've had 7 cards in the yard by turn 3 all that often. It's easy enough to put 4 or so in there.
4. How does Mongoose fare in combat? It's bad against stuff like Humans, but so is Mandrills. It's awful against grave hate in a different way than Mandrills is. I've often found that against Relics and Spellbombs, you can just find a window to cast Mandrills. Relic and Spellbomb hurt Goyf, too, but they both set this back to the stone age. Seven cards in a yard is an awful lot.
5. Do we care that it has 3 toughness rather than 4? It's hard to picture continuing to run Anger of the Gods in the board with this in the main, whereas Angering the board and leaving a Goyf or Mandrills is perfectly good. Maybe this is a minor enough interaction to just say goodbye to Anger, but are there other interactions I'm missing out on?
6. What does having a billion one-mana plays do for us? I take it the first priority in almost every situation is to get down a creature, and with Mongoose and Delver, that's easy. It allows us to leave open interaction basically the whole rest of the game.
7. Can we cut a land and play this? I've been on 18 for a long time, but I can see 17 with this, since we lower our curve pretty dramatically.
8. Do we have to play Bauble? Personal note: I mess up so much with that card, I'd rather not play it at all.
9. How do we keep the ground clear so this can attack? Obviously this all changes if we get a real removal spell, but just given what we know right now, how do we ensure this connects?
10. What removal does Mandrills eat that this dodges? I think it's exactly Path and then the odd Dismember.
I think the real value in Mongoose is that you can play it turn 1. I don't think it kills fast than Mandrills, and maybe it's slower, really, but it lets you get a creature down and then just interact. The problem is that we can't counter everything, and can't remove everything. Especially if we're relying on Spell Pierce and Mana Leak. Force of Negation helps on their turns early and in general later, but creatures remain a problem. Vapor Snag seems insufficient. I think we could play Faithless Looting and put some spicy one-ofs in the main like Roast, for example.
Also, if Mongoose ends up being the call, I think our board changes pretty drastically.
As I said before, there's plenty to think about. All I know for sure right now is that I'm going to be playing Force of Negation, fetchlands, and Blood Moon in the side, but everything else is up for negotiation.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
In my mind, you gotta play Bauble with Mongoose. It just makes sense. I will admit tho, It’s a very difficult card to play with if you’re not used to it.
Yes you can cut lands. I’m on 16 and functioning fine. But that’s with Baubles, I wouldn’t do that without it. 17 is a safer number and probably a minimum if you’re planning to run Snapcaster.
Having Mongoose instead of Mandrills is huge. Another turn 1 play. No counter synergies with Goyf. SHROUD. That ability is busted as can be. Dismember, Path, and Assassins Trophy are literally everywhere in the format.
Two mana preordain in the sorcery spot fellas.. Nice!
This can't possibly be playable.
EDIT - Goldfishing with my usual list tonight just to see how things went. Treated Mandrills and Mongooses, Sleights as Lootings, and Shoal as Force. Obviously this is a rough list, but I've only ever played Goose in Premodern, where filling the yard is easy, and also the format is way slower.
Seemed to take a long while to get threshold turned on. Having an extra, proactive turn 1 play felt great, but a 1/1 with shroud isn't exactly winning games. So I'm not sure on it.
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
The truth is we still didn't get anything except for FoN which will probably be a sideboard card if the meta keep being fast and maybe 1 land, nothing more. We may have become even worse since now is easier to kill moon.
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Even if nothing comes of the Mongoose experiment, it gives options where there were none before. We've had 11 creatures locked in the main for as long as this has been a deck -- 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, and 3 Mandrills -- and Goose gives a possible replacement. It might turn out like the Bomat Courier experiment some of us tried last summer, but perhaps not. And in the right meta, it'll be swell.
I also disagree that Force is a sideboard card. Most of what we want to stop is a noncreature anyway, and the real benefit is that it allows us to counter much of what we were countering before with Shoal while also easing the blue card requirements so we can run the sort of removal that's been in the board as a single copy in the main. I mean, just consider that instead of having to play 27 blue cards for Shoal, you're playing 23. That means you can run an Abrade, a Dismember, and maybe a Looting or two to find and discard the dead stuff. It also eases the requirements on CMC, which seems huge.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
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I don't think so. It's gonna allow us to play our proactive game while also being reactive. Cutting a substantial amount of lands gives us the gas to keep up with their curve and whatnot. So freakin stoked. FoN also on 3cmc is sweeeeet for shoaling 3mana creatures that come up here or there.
As long as you don't flood, and you shouldn't with the amount of card selection given here, you can keep up and pitch cards as needed.
I don't know if jamming some Stubs would be better. Maybe it is, but who knows.
This is the question we should be assessing. Stubborn Denial vs FoN. That kinda determines if we play Monkeys or Mongoose's, since one enables the other.
Hope we get either another red removal and/or a good cantrip.
I don't like playing 4 shoals and 4 force. My main 60 would look like this so far with the spoilers:
4x misty rainforest
4x wooded foothills
1x scalding tarn
2x island
1x forest
1x mountain
2x breeding pool
2x steam vents
1x stomping ground
4x nimble mongoose
4x delver of secrets
4x tarmogoyf
1x snapcaster mage
Non-creatures(29)
4x serum visions
3x traverse the ulvenwald
3x mishra's bauble
4x mana leak
4x force of negation
2x spell snare
3x spell pierce
4x lightning bolt
2x tarfire
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
3x Breeding Pool
4x Island
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells (30)
4x Opt
4x Serum Visions
4x Thought Scour
3x Vapor Snag
4x Simic Charm
4x Remand
4x Force of Negation
3x Spell Snare
You can't really skip on Thought Scour while wanting to be on Threshold as soon as possible.
But yeah it might make all the difference hitting threshold a turn earlier, it will take some testing to figure out the best rug list after the new cards come.
By the way, I'm also inclined to test Pteramander in the Tarmogoyf slot. The flying clause is huge, and instead of conflicting with Mandrills it needs the same work we already do to grow Nimble. Maybe it's too cute, but I'll definitely try it.
Jotting down some deck ideas at school today, I think Faithless Looting is a better Sorcery than Traverse the Ulvenwald in this deck. Looting would allow us to run more 1-ofs that are situationally useful in the main, like Dismember or Roast, and also allow us to ditch Force and Spell Pierce / Stubborn Denial in creature matchups.
Mongoose makes us weaker to grave hate, but Force allows us to counter it more easily, and Mongoose coming down on turn 1 makes us better able to hold up mana from then on out.
Initial thought for a Mongoose build:
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Breeding Pool
3x Island
1x Forest
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Nimble Mongoose
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Snapcaster Mage
Spells [29]
4x Serum Visions
2x Faithless Looting
3x Thought Scour
4x Force of Negation
3x Spell Pierce
2x Mana Leak
1x Spell Snare
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Tarfire
1x Forked Bolt / Abrade / Roast / Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
1x Fact or Fiction / Chart a Course / 3cmc walker / something for the grindy matchups
Maybe a pair of Baubles or so is a consideration over a Thought Scour and something else. Maybe 2 Snapcasters is too many. I would run the 18th land out of the board in this case, I think.
The issue with Mongoose is going to be keeping the ground clear in front of it. And while we've got access to all sorts of burn for small creatures, getting past opposing Goyfs / Anglers / etc is going to be an issue. I also think I might miss the trample Mandrills gives, although I think sneaking in early damage with Mongoose might be worth it.
(EDIT: For what it's worth, I think Mandrills slots right into this list, if Goose isn't good. I think lots will depend on the removal situation. I'm just happy to have options.)
Lots to think about here. This week is by far the biggest shot in the arm the deck has gotten in years.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
GWUBRDraft my Old Border Nostalgia Cube! and/or The Little Pauper Cube That Could!RBUWG
Modern:WDeath & TaxesW | RUGRUG DelverRUG
I think the biggest point here is wasteland. Card does insane things for the Legacy format. Similarly with daze.
1. Nimble Mongoose might not even be good, so all this might be for nothing. Only testing will tell, and I suspect that there are lots of factors with Mandrills that aren't obvious.
2. Trample is a thing.
3. How soon can we be attacking for 3 with Mongoose? Even running a full set of Thought Scour, I don't think I've had 7 cards in the yard by turn 3 all that often. It's easy enough to put 4 or so in there.
4. How does Mongoose fare in combat? It's bad against stuff like Humans, but so is Mandrills. It's awful against grave hate in a different way than Mandrills is. I've often found that against Relics and Spellbombs, you can just find a window to cast Mandrills. Relic and Spellbomb hurt Goyf, too, but they both set this back to the stone age. Seven cards in a yard is an awful lot.
5. Do we care that it has 3 toughness rather than 4? It's hard to picture continuing to run Anger of the Gods in the board with this in the main, whereas Angering the board and leaving a Goyf or Mandrills is perfectly good. Maybe this is a minor enough interaction to just say goodbye to Anger, but are there other interactions I'm missing out on?
6. What does having a billion one-mana plays do for us? I take it the first priority in almost every situation is to get down a creature, and with Mongoose and Delver, that's easy. It allows us to leave open interaction basically the whole rest of the game.
7. Can we cut a land and play this? I've been on 18 for a long time, but I can see 17 with this, since we lower our curve pretty dramatically.
8. Do we have to play Bauble? Personal note: I mess up so much with that card, I'd rather not play it at all.
9. How do we keep the ground clear so this can attack? Obviously this all changes if we get a real removal spell, but just given what we know right now, how do we ensure this connects?
10. What removal does Mandrills eat that this dodges? I think it's exactly Path and then the odd Dismember.
I think the real value in Mongoose is that you can play it turn 1. I don't think it kills fast than Mandrills, and maybe it's slower, really, but it lets you get a creature down and then just interact. The problem is that we can't counter everything, and can't remove everything. Especially if we're relying on Spell Pierce and Mana Leak. Force of Negation helps on their turns early and in general later, but creatures remain a problem. Vapor Snag seems insufficient. I think we could play Faithless Looting and put some spicy one-ofs in the main like Roast, for example.
Also, if Mongoose ends up being the call, I think our board changes pretty drastically.
As I said before, there's plenty to think about. All I know for sure right now is that I'm going to be playing Force of Negation, fetchlands, and Blood Moon in the side, but everything else is up for negotiation.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Yes you can cut lands. I’m on 16 and functioning fine. But that’s with Baubles, I wouldn’t do that without it. 17 is a safer number and probably a minimum if you’re planning to run Snapcaster.
Having Mongoose instead of Mandrills is huge. Another turn 1 play. No counter synergies with Goyf. SHROUD. That ability is busted as can be. Dismember, Path, and Assassins Trophy are literally everywhere in the format.
This can't possibly be playable.
EDIT - Goldfishing with my usual list tonight just to see how things went. Treated Mandrills and Mongooses, Sleights as Lootings, and Shoal as Force. Obviously this is a rough list, but I've only ever played Goose in Premodern, where filling the yard is easy, and also the format is way slower.
Seemed to take a long while to get threshold turned on. Having an extra, proactive turn 1 play felt great, but a 1/1 with shroud isn't exactly winning games. So I'm not sure on it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Modern:
I also disagree that Force is a sideboard card. Most of what we want to stop is a noncreature anyway, and the real benefit is that it allows us to counter much of what we were countering before with Shoal while also easing the blue card requirements so we can run the sort of removal that's been in the board as a single copy in the main. I mean, just consider that instead of having to play 27 blue cards for Shoal, you're playing 23. That means you can run an Abrade, a Dismember, and maybe a Looting or two to find and discard the dead stuff. It also eases the requirements on CMC, which seems huge.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered