Collector Ouphe is a sideboard option. Null Rod on a 1G 2/2. Seems good against stuff like Whir and Lantern, if those ever rise again. Definitely going to add 2 to the RUG *****ters box.
I don't think it's worth any spot. If these strategies are going to have a resurgence, Ancient Grudge would still be better at: a) dealing with multiple things at the same time (Ouphe does this too), b) being playable through Lantern effects thanks to the flashback, c) being WAY more flexible for the metagame.
There's really like no merit to Hexdrinker guys, C'mon. We got mongoose.
I already wrote about this in the last few pages. In short:
FoN doesn't compete with shoal but with stubborn denial. Hitting creatures is too important. That said you can't play 8 pitch spell. Hence my split
It does, in the sense that it competes for the slots of pitching spell. As I previously said, the choice is between Stubborn Denial + Disrupting Shoal and Spell Snare + Force of Negation. I pretty much prefer the second solution. Boogles is nonexistent right now. Shoals still has its merits, though. That's why we have to test more.
For me, unless the meta were to clock around to have something like Jeskai control that's full of removal but plays few creatures, I can't imagine wanting Mongoose over Mandrills. Hexdrinker has merits that BloodyRabbit_01 laid out above. Whether those are worthwhile over Mandrills is up for testing, but again, consider what the extra space in your deck might be when you're freed from Thought Scour.
EDIT: For what it's worth, I think this is probably the same style of argument the thresh players in Legacy have about Goose vs. Mandrills vs True Name vs Goyf.
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Exactly. My concern is now between having Hooting Mandrills + Thought Scour or Hexdrinker + Opt. Scour is just a bad Magic card, and we're forced to cast it into bad lines of play in order to deploy Mandrills on turn two (and there are times where you draw three Mandrills in a row without any way to cast them). On the other hand, not playing Mandrills means we can't have Stubborn Denial, in case we decide to play it over Force of Negation.
There are lots of deckbuilding considerations, here.
Tomorrow in the afternoon we set a proxy tournament in order to test the new cards. I'm going to use the "Highlander approach" to look for infos in a competitive environment.
Yeah, it's obviously a weird pile full of nonsense. But this is the strategy I usually adopt when I've got several cards to test at the same time, in order to see what's good and what's bad in a given moment of the match.
Mono Abrade is something I wanted to try as an out from Ensnaring Bridge and such, while Lazotep Plating is a tech I suspect could be decent in certain metagames. Let's see how it's going.
Tomorrow in the afternoon we set a proxy tournament in order to test the new cards. I'm going to use the "Highlander approach" to look for infos in a competitive environment.
Yeah, it's obviously a weird pile full of nonsense. But this is the strategy I usually adopt when I've got several cards to test at the same time, in order to see what's good and what's bad in a given moment of the match.
Mono Abrade is something I wanted to try as an out from Ensnaring Bridge and such, while Lazotep Plating is a tech I suspect could be decent in certain metagames. Let's see how it's going.
Wish me luck.
Nice, it could work as a brainstorm of ideas if it work out. Good Luck!
One thing I like about Nimble Mongoose is that you just have to react on what can prevent it front hitting every turn and not worry much about removal, aside mass removal.
To me, I would add Force of Negation to the sideboard and keep Disrupting Shoal as the main pitch card, because I think in this deck it's important to keep more possible lines of play available so then each card can be suited for different task if needed. Even if a missing definitive creature removal for the deck is spoiled, I guess having the choice of countering a creature or find removal, is better than have the opportunity to counter and have to find a removal.
I know it already being discussed, but maybe playing Faithless Looting instead of Thought Scour could give a better card selection and even work out giving qualitative advantage despite the quantitative disadvantage accrued with Disrupting Shoal. If you could just keep your creature beating every turn it could be just what is needed.
Scour is played instead of Looting because it's a cantrip, while Looting is pure card disadvantagein a deck that already plays Shoal effects. The fact it isn't blue is another concern, but certainly not the main.
A thought I had as far as pitch cards and removal: maybe 3 copies of Force, 2 Spell Pierce for extra spell backup, 2 Spell Snare for countering creatures and whatnot, and a copy of Lightning Axe for extra hard-nosed removal, to fill around Bolt, Tarfire, and possible Forked Bolt?
Let us know how the proxy tournament works. I liked the singleton idea and used it myself when I was between iterations of this deck.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
How do people rate Electrolyze as one of the flex spots?
When Lingering Souls is nowhere to be seen in the metagame, I don't think it deserves a slot. Nor it does Forked Bolt, which is better suited for our strategy.
---
So, one hour and the tournament will start. I already registered the list above.
I was thinking, in the meantime. What kind of advantage we have if we compare ourselves to a list such as this one? (it's a scratch, but keep reading please).
I mean, we're basically doing the same things (deploying a huge threat as soon as possible, then remove/counter/bounce everything. But we actually deal with Thing in the Ice as an easy task. We loot away useless cards in the maindeck against the opponent instead of sitting on Tarfire + Vapor Snag against Ad Nauseam. We deal with Death's Shadow quite confortably. We suffer Tron more maindeck, but it's not like Temur has far better chances (now that new Karn is part of the deck, I've been on a huge lose streak against them).
So, what's preventing us from migrating to Grixis - using the same concept of Monkey Grow?
I was thinking, in the meantime. What kind of advantage we have if we compare ourselves to a list such as this one? (it's a scratch, but keep reading please).
I mean, we're basically doing the same things (deploying a huge threat as soon as possible, then remove/counter/bounce everything. But we actually deal with Thing in the Ice as an easy task. We loot away useless cards in the maindeck against the opponent instead of sitting on Tarfire + Vapor Snag against Ad Nauseam. We deal with Death's Shadow quite confortably. We suffer Tron more maindeck, but it's not like Temur has far better chances (now that new Karn is part of the deck, I've been on a huge lose streak against them).
So, what's preventing us from migrating to Grixis - using the same concept of Monkey Grow?
We are slightly faster (we are more aggro than grixis and goyf is goyf), we support shoal better and most of all we support Moon. I don't migrate because it's too controllish for my taste. It could be stronger though. If moon and goyf are strong in the meta, we are strong otherwhise maybe other builds could be better.
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Decks played: Modern:
0 Affinity;
URG Delver
URGW Countercats
(Here you can find some video contents about Countercats and Temur Delver decks)
2-0 with Temur Highlander, against Simic Infect and RG Titanshift. Two more rounds until the going, then (I hope) ready for the top8.
We are slightly faster (we are more aggro than grixis and goyf is goyf), we support shoal better and most of all we support Moon. I don't migrate because it's too controllish for my taste. It could be stronger though. If moon and goyf are strong in the meta, we are strong otherwhise maybe other builds could be better.
Temur isn't really faster. Tasigur and Angler are basically the same as Mandrills + Goyf. Goyf can be bigger and can be smaller, depending on several factors. Both Grixis and Temur support Moon, there are no differences here.
The only argument can be made for Disrupting Shoal, but I'm not really inclined to play it anyway in Temur at the moment.
Don't know, I guess I'll test Grixis too to understand if there's something we are missing. Now back to the tournament, see ya later guys.
The main reason to go RUG over Grixis is the threat suite and sideboard cards. Green just has more options overall and most of them are easier to setup than the black threats. Black has Gurmag Angler and Shadow. Shadow requires a little more setup to be a great threat and makes you play a dangerous game with your life total. Gurmag requires more setup to reliably land on turn 2 (which GDS can do because it plays Baubles/Street Wraith/Thought Scour).
Goyf just requires you to play Magic and hit 2 mana and he's generally a 3/4 or bigger. Hooting Mandrills is an easier to use Gurmag that has trample. The 4/4 instead of being a 5/5 can be a real hindrance sometimes though.
I feel like if we went Grixis... we might as well just be switching to a GDS strategy.
Does anyone think there's merit to having Remand over Simic Charm in this list particularly? The bounce mode on the Charm is easily my "most used" mode, but I feel like with the introduction of the new FoN, I can keep up with removal enough to answer it reliably. Returning Creatures with remand will give me some serious "time walk" abilities against decks and will likely improve bad matchups.
I had a strange tournament, winning against some difficult matchups and ending up losing against one of our best. I went 4-0 in the swiss, almost perfect (2-0 Infect, 2-0 RG Titanshift, 2-0 Jund, 2-1 Dredge) and lost immediately in the quarterfinals (0-2 vs Boros Burn).
Obviously it was (also) due to deckbuilding choices. I had a good plan vs Dredge, and I liked the configuration vs Midrange (had another friendly match against Jund's opponent cause it was over in less than twenty minutes, and I ended up winning again 2-1). I expected to do better vs Burn (until today I was undefeated vs monored strategies) but hey, it happens.
Conclusions from what I saw today:
a) In several occasions, if Force of Negation was Disrupting Shoal I would have lost the game (vs Scapeshift twice and vs Infect once, vs Liliana of the Veil another). I once countered a Tarmogoyf with Shoal (which I couldn't with Force of Negation) but I would have been in a good position anyway.
b) Lazotep Plating is more than decent when it's good, otherwise terrible.
c) Pteramander and Nimble Mongoose were better than I expected. I had both of them on the board twice (against Jund and Dredge) and they don't conflict with each other. It's a synergy I didn't think about before.
d) Tarmogoyf was very underwhelming. Costing two mana isn't exactly cheap in a deck like this, and I lost him twice to Relic of Progenitus / Nihil Spellbomb + Lightning Bolt (Scapeshift and Jund). Other times I was struck on three mana and forced to choose between casting it or keeping mana up for permission/removal. Hooting Mandrills and Pteramander went throught the opponent's hate cause we just have to "activate" them once, and that's it.
e) I casted Hexdrinker twice in the whole tournament, against Scapeshift and Dredge. It went both times into Progenitus mode, and won me a game vs Dredge that I had no business winning, while sealing the deal vs Scapeshift in two turns. Reflections about its role incoming. It may be worth it as a 1-2x instead of a full set? But I keep liking it a lot.
f) Mishra's Bauble made once a Mandrills castable on turn two and another time a Tarmogoyf bigger than opponent's Scavenging Ooze (my opponent had no mana to eat it), leading me to victory.
..............................................
The main reason to go RUG over Grixis is the threat suite and sideboard cards. Green just has more options overall and most of them are easier to setup than the black threats. Black has Gurmag Angler and Shadow. Shadow requires a little more setup to be a great threat and makes you play a dangerous game with your life total. Gurmag requires more setup to reliably land on turn 2 (which GDS can do because it plays Baubles/Street Wraith/Thought Scour).
Goyf just requires you to play Magic and hit 2 mana and he's generally a 3/4 or bigger. Hooting Mandrills is an easier to use Gurmag that has trample. The 4/4 instead of being a 5/5 can be a real hindrance sometimes though.
I feel like if we went Grixis... we might as well just be switching to a GDS strategy.
I don't get why people tend to ALWAYS generalise.
I wasn't talking about older Grixis Delver lists from three years ago (which aren't a thing anymore). I posted a list above to make it clear. It has the same amount of threat density as Temur Delver. You can cast Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler almost with the same facility of a Tarmogoyf there, thanks to the SEVEN enablers it plays. On top of that, it also run the full set of Young Pyromancer to complement the already mentioned threats.
I'm pretty convinced that Delve threats are straight out better than Tarmogoyf. They can bypass hate way more easily than the green fatty (except for Leyline of the Void) and don't die from things such as Fatal Push or Blast Zone. The fact that Tarmogoyf costs *every single time* two mana is also very ankward in a deck that can strumble on lands.
I'm a Grixis Shadow player since its birth, by the way. I don't think the strategies are comparable. They have completely different attitudes, even though they are both Tempo decks. There is no reason to bring Death's Shadow in the topic.
Does anyone think there's merit to having Remand over Simic Charm in this list particularly? The bounce mode on the Charm is easily my "most used" mode, but I feel like with the introduction of the new FoN, I can keep up with removal enough to answer it reliably. Returning Creatures with remand will give me some serious "time walk" abilities against decks and will likely improve bad matchups.
Thoughts?
I still like Remand as a spell, but you're already running 12 counterspells. Oh, 8 pitch cards are way too many. You can hardcast them, ok, they're still too many.
e) I casted Hexdrinker twice in the whole tournament, against Scapeshift and Dredge. It went both times into Progenitus mode, and won me a game vs Dredge that I had no business winning, while sealing the deal vs Scapeshift in two turns. Reflections about its role incoming. It may be worth it as a 1-2x instead of a full set? But I keep liking it a lot.
I had expectations for Hexdrinker, but oh boy! 2 times Progenitus mode is what I call a good start. I can't wait to cast my first one.
c) Pteramander and Nimble Mongoose were better than I expected. I had both of them on the board twice (against Jund and Dredge) and they don't conflict with each other. It's a synergy I didn't think about before.
Nice to know Nimble Mongoose also did well, it looks like Tarmogoyf might be our worst threat right now.
Keep in mind neither of the decks hexdrinker got there are exactly known for their removal.
Again with the "Tarmogoyf dies to removal" argument. Titanshift, anyway, packs lots of way to dispose of creatures. We just overrun them, cause they have to deal with Delvers and company before.
Nice to know Nimble Mongoose also did well, it looks like Tarmogoyf might be our worst threat right now.
I've got this vibe since a long time. Mongoose also wasn't *great*, but casting it for one mana was definitely more useful. Pteramander was better than both by miles. The fly condition was key against Dredge, for istance.
Keep in mind neither of the decks hexdrinker got there are exactly known for their removal.
Sure, sure. But let's look at the top 15 decks in the meta, as of today.
Humans: no removal save Reflector Mage, which blows out everything we play except Goyf and Snapcaster anyway. Goose may be better here, but it's a chump blocker, realistically. UW Control: 5 removal spells and wraths. Tons of grave hate means Goose probably isn't great here, and attacking for a few turns before they have their removal online seems fine to me. Tron: no removal, maindeck Relics. I'm all about chipping for 2 starting turn 2, Forcing whatever they do on their turn, and beating face. I think this matchup is already solid and gets better post Horizons. UR Phoenix: removal for sure, but again, attacking for a few points before they flip Thing seems fine to me. Dredge: no removal. Burn: all removal, but anything they're pointing at creatures is fine by me. I appreciate the Hexdrinker trading with Goblin Guide here. Especially since they've usually hit us for 4-6 with it by the time Hoots comes down. Goose seems fine here, too, but gravehate is a concern. Amulet: no removal, and hitting them for 2-4 while they're durdling around seems just fine by me. Matchup is a bye anyway. Red Phoenix: all removal, although I find this a rough matchup anyway. I do think that Force of Negation may help turn this around, though. We'll see. Affinity: the one piece of removal they play kills Mandrills just as much as it kills an unleveled Hexdrinker. Goose seems rough here, especially since I'm almost always boarding out air for artifact hate. That said, this is a horrible matchup in my experience. Grixis Death's Shadow: much removal, but a levelled Hexdrinker seems problematic for them, and an ultimated one wins in a swing. The Rock: much removal, and Push is a problem. That said, I find that these games get into topdeck wars, and I'd 100% rather topdeck a Hexdrinker than a Mandrills or Mongoose here. Titanshift: dealing early damage is a thing here. I think Force of Negation is going to be good here, although the matchup feels pretty good. Infect: no removal, good matchup anyway. Jund: 6 pieces of removal that kills Hexdrinker but not Mandrills. That's a thing. Mongoose seems terrible here because of the board stalls this matchup leads to makes a 3/3 irrelevant. Mandrills is solid here because it shrinks Goyfs at a whim. But again, in a topdeck war, Hexdrinker wins the game. You play it, level it up to 3 or 4 or whatever, pass, level the rest of the way next turn, attack with a 6/6, GG. Hollow One: 6 pieces of removal main that kills Hexdrinker but not Mandrills, which is solid here because they fill our grave for us. But again, you can cast the Hexdrinker and chip in a few points while they're durdling around. Getting the creature out of your hand to protect it against Goblin Lore is relevant. Matchup isn't great, but it isn't because of our creatures.
Just looking at these, it sure seems like there are a few decks where just being able to crack in to force the removal spell seems good. I'm also planning to play 2-of Spell Pierce to buy a few turns early on, because you can level it, or before Force of Negation gets hardcast.
Maybe a 2/2 split with Hexdrinker and Mandrills would be best? I'm not sure. I'm going to test 4 just to get a feel for it, though.
Lame duck format update: went 2-1 last night, beating Abzan and UR Pyromancer, losing to Grixis Control. My list feels really good right now. One thing I worry about with losing Mandrills is that Simic Charm doesn't work with Mongoose or Hexdrinker, and that card is a 3-of house in my deck right now. I'd say it's about the best thing I can draw against the fair decks. But then again, part of the reason I'm running it is because we need ~28 blue cards for Shoal, and with only needing ~23 or so for Force, we can afford to play harder removal to deal with big Goyfs and whatnot.
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
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I don't think it's worth any spot. If these strategies are going to have a resurgence, Ancient Grudge would still be better at: a) dealing with multiple things at the same time (Ouphe does this too), b) being playable through Lantern effects thanks to the flashback, c) being WAY more flexible for the metagame.
I already wrote about this in the last few pages. In short:
a) Mongoose is (another) graveyard-based creature, that shrinks with anything our opponent does - differently from Tarmogoyf and Mandrills (Scavenging Ooze, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Leyline of the Void...).
b) It forces you to play Thought Scour, which is a very narrow cantrip.
c) Hexdrinker beats for two on turn two. Yes, it's kinda different than dealing just one damage every swing for the next 1-2-3 turns.
d) If the game is on a stalemate, Nimble Mongoose on the topdeck is a 3/3 with shroud. Hexdrinker half a Progenitus.
e) Removals are killing our other creatures if they aren't killing Hexdrinker. Other than that, the top tier strategies play plenty of sweepers - Blast Zone, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Oblivion Stone, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Anger of the Gods, Engineered Explosives.
It does, in the sense that it competes for the slots of pitching spell. As I previously said, the choice is between Stubborn Denial + Disrupting Shoal and Spell Snare + Force of Negation. I pretty much prefer the second solution. Boogles is nonexistent right now. Shoals still has its merits, though. That's why we have to test more.
EDIT: For what it's worth, I think this is probably the same style of argument the thresh players in Legacy have about Goose vs. Mandrills vs True Name vs Goyf.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
There are lots of deckbuilding considerations, here.
But I'm pretty sure that Hexdrinker >>> Nimble Mongoose in this metagame.
Tomorrow in the afternoon we set a proxy tournament in order to test the new cards. I'm going to use the "Highlander approach" to look for infos in a competitive environment.
Welcome to the Jungle, Highlander 2019.
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Polluted Delta
1x Stomping Ground
2x Steam Vents
1x Breeding Pool
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Spirebluff Canal
Creatures (14)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Nimble Mongoose
1x Hexdrinker
1x Hooting Mandrills
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Pteramander
1x Snapcaster Mage
Artifact (1)
1x Mishra's Bauble
4x Serum Visions
4x Thought Scour
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Spell Pierce
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Spell Snare
1x Disrupting Shoal
1x Force of Negation
1x Deprive
1x Mana Leak
1x Remand
1x Tarfire
1x Flame Slash
1x Vapor Snag
1x Simic Charm
1x Faithless Looting
1x Abrade
1x Lazotep Plating
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Disrupting Shoal
1x Force of Negation
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Revenous Trap
1x Spell Snare
1x Dismember
1x Roast
1x Threads of Disloyalty
1x Entrancing Melody
1x Nimble Obstructionist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
Yeah, it's obviously a weird pile full of nonsense. But this is the strategy I usually adopt when I've got several cards to test at the same time, in order to see what's good and what's bad in a given moment of the match.
Mono Abrade is something I wanted to try as an out from Ensnaring Bridge and such, while Lazotep Plating is a tech I suspect could be decent in certain metagames. Let's see how it's going.
Wish me luck.
One thing I like about Nimble Mongoose is that you just have to react on what can prevent it front hitting every turn and not worry much about removal, aside mass removal.
To me, I would add Force of Negation to the sideboard and keep Disrupting Shoal as the main pitch card, because I think in this deck it's important to keep more possible lines of play available so then each card can be suited for different task if needed. Even if a missing definitive creature removal for the deck is spoiled, I guess having the choice of countering a creature or find removal, is better than have the opportunity to counter and have to find a removal.
I know it already being discussed, but maybe playing Faithless Looting instead of Thought Scour could give a better card selection and even work out giving qualitative advantage despite the quantitative disadvantage accrued with Disrupting Shoal. If you could just keep your creature beating every turn it could be just what is needed.
Modern:
Let us know how the proxy tournament works. I liked the singleton idea and used it myself when I was between iterations of this deck.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
How do people rate Electrolyze as one of the flex spots?
Has the meta run past it full speed or are there enough viable targets that it could work?
Modern:
When Lingering Souls is nowhere to be seen in the metagame, I don't think it deserves a slot. Nor it does Forked Bolt, which is better suited for our strategy.
---
So, one hour and the tournament will start. I already registered the list above.
I was thinking, in the meantime. What kind of advantage we have if we compare ourselves to a list such as this one? (it's a scratch, but keep reading please).
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Watery Grave
2x Steam Vents
2x Island
1x Swamp
3x Spirebluff Canal
Creatures (14):
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Young Pyromancer
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3x Gurmag Angler
4x Serum Visions
4x Thought Scour
3x Faithless Looting
Removals&Permission (17):
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Fatal Push
2x Terminate
1x Abrade
4x Stubborn Denial
3x Deprive
1x Abrade
3x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Disdainful Stroke
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Collective Brutality
I mean, we're basically doing the same things (deploying a huge threat as soon as possible, then remove/counter/bounce everything. But we actually deal with Thing in the Ice as an easy task. We loot away useless cards in the maindeck against the opponent instead of sitting on Tarfire + Vapor Snag against Ad Nauseam. We deal with Death's Shadow quite confortably. We suffer Tron more maindeck, but it's not like Temur has far better chances (now that new Karn is part of the deck, I've been on a huge lose streak against them).
So, what's preventing us from migrating to Grixis - using the same concept of Monkey Grow?
We are slightly faster (we are more aggro than grixis and goyf is goyf), we support shoal better and most of all we support Moon. I don't migrate because it's too controllish for my taste. It could be stronger though. If moon and goyf are strong in the meta, we are strong otherwhise maybe other builds could be better.
Modern:
Temur isn't really faster. Tasigur and Angler are basically the same as Mandrills + Goyf. Goyf can be bigger and can be smaller, depending on several factors. Both Grixis and Temur support Moon, there are no differences here.
The only argument can be made for Disrupting Shoal, but I'm not really inclined to play it anyway in Temur at the moment.
Don't know, I guess I'll test Grixis too to understand if there's something we are missing. Now back to the tournament, see ya later guys.
Goyf just requires you to play Magic and hit 2 mana and he's generally a 3/4 or bigger. Hooting Mandrills is an easier to use Gurmag that has trample. The 4/4 instead of being a 5/5 can be a real hindrance sometimes though.
I feel like if we went Grixis... we might as well just be switching to a GDS strategy.
Thoughts?
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1914256#paper
I had a strange tournament, winning against some difficult matchups and ending up losing against one of our best. I went 4-0 in the swiss, almost perfect (2-0 Infect, 2-0 RG Titanshift, 2-0 Jund, 2-1 Dredge) and lost immediately in the quarterfinals (0-2 vs Boros Burn).
Obviously it was (also) due to deckbuilding choices. I had a good plan vs Dredge, and I liked the configuration vs Midrange (had another friendly match against Jund's opponent cause it was over in less than twenty minutes, and I ended up winning again 2-1). I expected to do better vs Burn (until today I was undefeated vs monored strategies) but hey, it happens.
Conclusions from what I saw today:
a) In several occasions, if Force of Negation was Disrupting Shoal I would have lost the game (vs Scapeshift twice and vs Infect once, vs Liliana of the Veil another). I once countered a Tarmogoyf with Shoal (which I couldn't with Force of Negation) but I would have been in a good position anyway.
b) Lazotep Plating is more than decent when it's good, otherwise terrible.
c) Pteramander and Nimble Mongoose were better than I expected. I had both of them on the board twice (against Jund and Dredge) and they don't conflict with each other. It's a synergy I didn't think about before.
d) Tarmogoyf was very underwhelming. Costing two mana isn't exactly cheap in a deck like this, and I lost him twice to Relic of Progenitus / Nihil Spellbomb + Lightning Bolt (Scapeshift and Jund). Other times I was struck on three mana and forced to choose between casting it or keeping mana up for permission/removal. Hooting Mandrills and Pteramander went throught the opponent's hate cause we just have to "activate" them once, and that's it.
e) I casted Hexdrinker twice in the whole tournament, against Scapeshift and Dredge. It went both times into Progenitus mode, and won me a game vs Dredge that I had no business winning, while sealing the deal vs Scapeshift in two turns. Reflections about its role incoming. It may be worth it as a 1-2x instead of a full set? But I keep liking it a lot.
f) Mishra's Bauble made once a Mandrills castable on turn two and another time a Tarmogoyf bigger than opponent's Scavenging Ooze (my opponent had no mana to eat it), leading me to victory.
..............................................
I don't get why people tend to ALWAYS generalise.
I wasn't talking about older Grixis Delver lists from three years ago (which aren't a thing anymore). I posted a list above to make it clear. It has the same amount of threat density as Temur Delver. You can cast Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler almost with the same facility of a Tarmogoyf there, thanks to the SEVEN enablers it plays. On top of that, it also run the full set of Young Pyromancer to complement the already mentioned threats.
I'm pretty convinced that Delve threats are straight out better than Tarmogoyf. They can bypass hate way more easily than the green fatty (except for Leyline of the Void) and don't die from things such as Fatal Push or Blast Zone. The fact that Tarmogoyf costs *every single time* two mana is also very ankward in a deck that can strumble on lands.
I'm a Grixis Shadow player since its birth, by the way. I don't think the strategies are comparable. They have completely different attitudes, even though they are both Tempo decks. There is no reason to bring Death's Shadow in the topic.
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I still like Remand as a spell, but you're already running 12 counterspells. Oh, 8 pitch cards are way too many. You can hardcast them, ok, they're still too many.
I had expectations for Hexdrinker, but oh boy! 2 times Progenitus mode is what I call a good start. I can't wait to cast my first one.
Nice to know Nimble Mongoose also did well, it looks like Tarmogoyf might be our worst threat right now.
Modern: MONKEY GROW & Amulet Titan
Legacy: RG Lands
EDH: Merieke Ri Berit Esper Good stuff
Again with the "Tarmogoyf dies to removal" argument. Titanshift, anyway, packs lots of way to dispose of creatures. We just overrun them, cause they have to deal with Delvers and company before.
I've got this vibe since a long time. Mongoose also wasn't *great*, but casting it for one mana was definitely more useful. Pteramander was better than both by miles. The fly condition was key against Dredge, for istance.
Sure, sure. But let's look at the top 15 decks in the meta, as of today.
Humans: no removal save Reflector Mage, which blows out everything we play except Goyf and Snapcaster anyway. Goose may be better here, but it's a chump blocker, realistically.
UW Control: 5 removal spells and wraths. Tons of grave hate means Goose probably isn't great here, and attacking for a few turns before they have their removal online seems fine to me.
Tron: no removal, maindeck Relics. I'm all about chipping for 2 starting turn 2, Forcing whatever they do on their turn, and beating face. I think this matchup is already solid and gets better post Horizons.
UR Phoenix: removal for sure, but again, attacking for a few points before they flip Thing seems fine to me.
Dredge: no removal.
Burn: all removal, but anything they're pointing at creatures is fine by me. I appreciate the Hexdrinker trading with Goblin Guide here. Especially since they've usually hit us for 4-6 with it by the time Hoots comes down. Goose seems fine here, too, but gravehate is a concern.
Amulet: no removal, and hitting them for 2-4 while they're durdling around seems just fine by me. Matchup is a bye anyway.
Red Phoenix: all removal, although I find this a rough matchup anyway. I do think that Force of Negation may help turn this around, though. We'll see.
Affinity: the one piece of removal they play kills Mandrills just as much as it kills an unleveled Hexdrinker. Goose seems rough here, especially since I'm almost always boarding out air for artifact hate. That said, this is a horrible matchup in my experience.
Grixis Death's Shadow: much removal, but a levelled Hexdrinker seems problematic for them, and an ultimated one wins in a swing.
The Rock: much removal, and Push is a problem. That said, I find that these games get into topdeck wars, and I'd 100% rather topdeck a Hexdrinker than a Mandrills or Mongoose here.
Titanshift: dealing early damage is a thing here. I think Force of Negation is going to be good here, although the matchup feels pretty good.
Infect: no removal, good matchup anyway.
Jund: 6 pieces of removal that kills Hexdrinker but not Mandrills. That's a thing. Mongoose seems terrible here because of the board stalls this matchup leads to makes a 3/3 irrelevant. Mandrills is solid here because it shrinks Goyfs at a whim. But again, in a topdeck war, Hexdrinker wins the game. You play it, level it up to 3 or 4 or whatever, pass, level the rest of the way next turn, attack with a 6/6, GG.
Hollow One: 6 pieces of removal main that kills Hexdrinker but not Mandrills, which is solid here because they fill our grave for us. But again, you can cast the Hexdrinker and chip in a few points while they're durdling around. Getting the creature out of your hand to protect it against Goblin Lore is relevant. Matchup isn't great, but it isn't because of our creatures.
Just looking at these, it sure seems like there are a few decks where just being able to crack in to force the removal spell seems good. I'm also planning to play 2-of Spell Pierce to buy a few turns early on, because you can level it, or before Force of Negation gets hardcast.
Maybe a 2/2 split with Hexdrinker and Mandrills would be best? I'm not sure. I'm going to test 4 just to get a feel for it, though.
Lame duck format update: went 2-1 last night, beating Abzan and UR Pyromancer, losing to Grixis Control. My list feels really good right now. One thing I worry about with losing Mandrills is that Simic Charm doesn't work with Mongoose or Hexdrinker, and that card is a 3-of house in my deck right now. I'd say it's about the best thing I can draw against the fair decks. But then again, part of the reason I'm running it is because we need ~28 blue cards for Shoal, and with only needing ~23 or so for Force, we can afford to play harder removal to deal with big Goyfs and whatnot.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered