Eryon, are you running the same list you posted on page 2? how did the agony warp work for you? were the 0/-3 and the -3/0 modes relevant at any point over a simple -2/-2?
the tron match up is something i haven't tested yet. the more i think about it, the more concerned i get. haha. maybe a duress in the +15?
Even if I'm not Eyron: I tested Agony Warp as a 2-of and there were some situations in which both modes made a significant difference over a simple -2/-2. TBH the modes most probably could have been -3/-0 and -0/-1 or -2 but you can get quite some value out of it when killing a guy with the second mode while rendering an attack harmless with the first one. I mean, you could imagine killing a Nacatl while nullifying their 3/4 Goyf at once with just one card... doesn't seem to bad to me.
As for the Tron match up: I played like 8 games so far and it was either a cakewalk or hard as f***. It seems they really need T3 Tron to stand a chance, but you can't always hinder that. My advice would be: Be prepared to stop the T3 Karn at all costs, even if it means to mulligan a really good hand. It's worth nothing if you could curve BB -> Vendilion Clique -> Mistbind or something if Karn eats your lands and stuff.
I'm not saying runnign 4 slips, just 1-2 as well as 1-2 smothers and side having deathmarks and stuff.
The point was something to kill threatening t1 plays (mana dorks, delver, alvamanther) that can cause unfavorable board states (t2 lili, t2 pod) and useful late game. It kills wurmcoil, even sundering titan as well as goyf and stuff mid game. The pros outweigh the situational cons imo.
Both Disfigure and Tragic Slip can kill the turn 1 plays, so the difference between them comes to what can they kill later on. Disfigure can kill the Pod combo enablers and a few creatures with toughness 2, while Tragic Slip only works if you have a Blossom active with tokens ready to chumpblock. Personally, I don't like neither of them for the maindeck and use Dismember in that place. Paying 4 life to kill a turn 1 Nacatl could look like a bad investment, but compare it to other options: with the typical cmc=2 black removal you only lose 3 life from the attack, but have also lost your turn 2 in which you couldn't cast Blossom nor Mana Leak or another removal; with Lightning Bolt you don't have the tempo loss and only costs 3 life that turn, but your manabase will deal you more damage later on the game.
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Woah, played some games against GW Hatebears and I'm stunned. I can't see how Eyron managed to win this, as their Critters may be slower than Zoo but hit harder. Additionally Thalia + Arbiter + Ghost Quarter are a nightmare, especially when they start. Any thoughts`?
I'm starting to dislike River of Tears, or liking it less. The theory is that it allows you to cast turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Blossom and gives you blue mana for the rest of the game... with the exception of your own turn when you play your land drop and River of Tears gives you black mana again. What happens if you have more than one? That the Cryptic Command you were able to cast during your opponent's turn can't be played during your own turn, making you vulnerable to instants or creatures with flash. The other dual lands of the deck also have their drawbacks (like coming into play tapped, not working if you don't have another colored source or making you lose life), but so far I was trying to avoid Sunken Ruins and perhaps I should split them (and maybe get an Urborg).
You know you can tap them for blue, float the mana, then play a land after and cast right?
Scenario:
T4, you have 3 River of Tears on the board with another land in hand. You want to cast Cryptic Command.
Tap all 3 rivers for blue, float the mana, play your 4th land, cast CC, done.
My only issue with rivers is playing instants, especially black removal, like Dismember or Go For The Throat, since you can't play a land on your opponents turn to change your rivers to black
That's why I play 2 rivers, 2 Watery Graves
Not a lot of people play zoo or robots in my local group, thus the lack of the conventional SB. There is a lot of mid-range and aggro decks instead, with a Death and Taxes deck, a BUG tempo, RUW control, and almost no combo decks. So those are my reasons for the sideboard.
High island count (10) for Vedalken Shackles to reliably hit things.
High discard spell count since there are threats that are hard to deal with (Mirran Crusader, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, gods, and a lot of undying spring to mind)
And I'm seriously considering Whip of Erebos maindeck, since a friend of mine used it in his UB Faeries on cockatrice several times to VERY good use. Something people should consider.
I cannot afford anymore life loss mechanics, so no 3 colours, no fetches, no Vendetta. The only reason I run Dismember is to hit things like Loxodon Smiter, Tarmogoyf, and other fatties. I run 4 Watery Graves to help support Vedalken Shackles. And I run only 2 thoughtseize, maxing on inquisition instead.
You know you can tap them for blue, float the mana, then play a land after and cast right?
If you want to play Cryptic to tap and draw or something like that, it works, but if you want to counter an instant played on your turn (removal, opposing Cryptic, Chord of Calling, eot Gifts, Burn in late game mode...), you can't use that trick.
About the removal debate, I keep thinking Dismember is the most versatile at killing both early creatures and relatively big ones in the late game, falling only short to Tarmogoyfs with Blossom in the graveyard, Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze with a big graveyard, Voice tokens with a full board and real fatties (Deathmark in the sideboard takes care of most of them, btw). I don't think you want to kill such big creatures with Vendetta. Certainly, black removal is so conditional that there is not a single best spell you should run as a 4-of unless you know your metagame perfectly, but Dismember is the closest card to that for an unknown metagame.
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overall agony warp only truly shines in the aggro matchup, but it's pretty nuts there.
hatebears should only be an issue if you keep an average or below hand and they have the nuts. all of our removal is great and discard can be back breaking on t1. Not a cakewalk match, but i don't think it's terrible either.
You know you can tap them for blue, float the mana, then play a land after and cast right?
If you want to play Cryptic to tap and draw or something like that, it works, but if you want to counter an instant played on your turn (removal, opposing Cryptic, Chord of Calling, eot Gifts, Burn in late game mode...), you can't use that trick.
Yep, which is why I don't rate River of Tears as an essential land. I personally wouldn't run more than 2, and even then I'm a bit iffy about that...
About the removal debate, I keep thinking Dismember is the most versatile at killing both early creatures and relatively big ones in the late game, falling only short to Tarmogoyfs with Blossom in the graveyard, Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze with a big graveyard, Voice tokens with a full board and real fatties (Deathmark in the sideboard takes care of most of them, btw). I don't think you want to kill such big creatures with Vendetta. Certainly, black removal is so conditional that there is not a single best spell you should run as a 4-of unless you know your metagame perfectly, but Dismember is the closest card to that for an unknown metagame.
I agree, I love Dismembers versatility. However, I'm not a fan of Deathmark since it's sorcery, but it has it's advantages, since I would run it over Tragic Slip.
You know you can tap them for blue, float the mana, then play a land after and cast right?
If you want to play Cryptic to tap and draw or something like that, it works, but if you want to counter an instant played on your turn (removal, opposing Cryptic, Chord of Calling, eot Gifts, Burn in late game mode...), you can't use that trick.
Yep, which is why I don't rate River of Tears as an essential land. I personally wouldn't run more than 2, and even then I'm a bit iffy about that...
And in which spot tapping out in your turn with no blue mana left is so crucial?
The tempo loss is HUGE and if they make you tap out reasonably they have a play to develop undisturbed in their next turn.
- L
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There are more decks that play during the opponent's turn besides Faeries. You can't limit your cards to being played only at very concrete steps; that's exactly the opposite of the versatility that the instant speed offers.
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I have tried to get to the totals of 22 blue sources for Cryptic and 14 untapped black sources for Thoughtseize. These numbers are recommended in the article by Frank Karsten posted earlier. In an effort to get there I cut the basic swamps for Watery Grave. I also had to cut a Tar Pit and the Tectonic Edges.
This numbers out to exactly 15 turn1 black sources, and 22 blue sources while playing 26 lands, 6 of which have some utility to protect from flooding out.
What do you think of cutting Swamp?
We surrender the possibility of having black under Blood Moon and we give up the ability to fetch Swamp after being hit by Path to Exile. But i feel these cases are rather marginal.
You could cut 2 River of Tears, since I think everyone by now agrees that it's a bit iffy to run a full playset, and for for a basic swamp and 1x Sunken Ruins which will filter the loss of blue and keep you up on 22 blues but will cut you down on 14 turn 1 black sources, which is not a big deal, 14 are good enough. Other than that I am quite willing to give Tec edges more chances and on that list I would cut 2 Islands or an Island and a Watery Grave for 2 Tec edges.
I have tried to get to the totals of 22 blue sources for Cryptic and 14 untapped black sources for Thoughtseize. These numbers are recommended in the article by Frank Karsten posted earlier. In an effort to get there I cut the basic swamps for Watery Grave. I also had to cut a Tar Pit and the Tectonic Edges.
This numbers out to exactly 15 turn1 black sources, and 22 blue sources while playing 26 lands, 6 of which have some utility to protect from flooding out.
What do you think of cutting Swamp?
We surrender the possibility of having black under Blood Moon and we give up the ability to fetch Swamp after being hit by Path to Exile. But i feel these cases are rather marginal.
You don't like the TecEdge? I find them rather useful against numerous decks, while not Wastes imo they are too good to be cut.
From you list i would cut a basic island a river to leave room for TecEdge if you want my opinion.
Just out of curiosity how many 1 cmc discard spells do you run?
- L
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I finally decided to cut the pendelhaven from my list and run 2 tec edges and 26 lands instead of 0 edges and 25 land. While I still think it's a good card and haven't had any color issues with it, I've been more and more afraid of gavony township from pod and treetop village from jund and the value from killing them outweighs the added resiliency that the haven gives. I also decided to keep the spell snares instead of tragic slips and run a damnation over the 5th spot removal spell. It's rather easy for us to rebuild and still have a fast clock out of nowhere with scions/swords/BB and 7 man lands that the wrath is still far from being equal and lets us still come out ahead.
I still don't like the idea that tec edge is "great" against tron because I've never once been able to hit a land and keep them off tron without them having one of their 500 tutors ready or see them sitting with 3 tron lands out and being quite happy. But with the large amount of counter magic we have it might be a real thing to do now (outside of the natural turn 3 tron) with SSS being amazing against all of their tutors.
So far my biggest worry is getting out-valued by pod and run over by zoo while the rest of the match ups I'm fairly certain are at least even, and grossly in our favor if we stick a t2 blossom. What are everyone's plans against pod so far? In my experience it comes down to extremely tight play and not getting hit with a turn 2 birthing pod. BB is awesome, but a turn 2 pod is typically lights out if you left your racing shoes at home. However if neither deck gets their nutty opener the first mistake tends to snowball very fast because of the power level of the cards each deck has.
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I'm no Fae expert, but wouldn't Bile Blight be better than agony warp against Zoo? SUre you lose the ability to kill a critter then chump block + kill a different one, but you gain the ability to kill multiple targets with one spell only. Seems like a better deal.
You know you can tap them for blue, float the mana, then play a land after and cast right?
If you want to play Cryptic to tap and draw or something like that, it works, but if you want to counter an instant played on your turn (removal, opposing Cryptic, Chord of Calling, eot Gifts, Burn in late game mode...), you can't use that trick.
About the removal debate, I keep thinking Dismember is the most versatile at killing both early creatures and relatively big ones in the late game, falling only short to Tarmogoyfs with Blossom in the graveyard, Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze with a big graveyard, Voice tokens with a full board and real fatties (Deathmark in the sideboard takes care of most of them, btw). I don't think you want to kill such big creatures with Vendetta. Certainly, black removal is so conditional that there is not a single best spell you should run as a 4-of unless you know your metagame perfectly, but Dismember is the closest card to that for an unknown metagame.
I'm no Fae expert, but wouldn't Bile Blight be better than agony warp against Zoo? SUre you lose the ability to kill a critter then chump block + kill a different one, but you gain the ability to kill multiple targets with one spell only. Seems like a better deal.
I've been thinking about bile blight as well, but the few times I tried it, the double black was pretty awkward to come up with at times. Meanwhile agony warp is VERY easy to cast and acts as a pseudo lightning helix as it kills a 3 toughness dude and prevents 3 damage from another attacker which is very similar. What I've found myself wanting more than anything though is a source of card draw, but it's so hard to squeeze in. I've tried baby jace and compulsive research, but 3 mana sorceries are tough to cast and stick to our game plan.
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Can we go again through why don't we want 3-4 fetchlands in there? Sure we can't fetch basic swamp, but that shouldn't be a concern most of the times. And fetching an island is a definite T4 untapped land which allows for more consistent cryptics. Finally it provides some thinning which is much needed in a deck that can easily flood, especially since we are running 0 card draw currently.
Can we go again through why don't we want 3-4 fetchlands in there? Sure we can't fetch basic swamp, but that shouldn't be a concern most of the times. And fetching an island is a definite T4 untapped land which allows for more consistent cryptics. Finally it provides some thinning which is much needed in a deck that can easily flood, especially since we are running 0 card draw currently.
The reason we don't play fetches is because of damage. In UBx Fae every life point is essential. Seeing as thoughtseize domes you for 2. So do shock lands. And finally the key domer is BB. Seeing as we have no way to gain life back, every life counts. Note we also dont do anything till turns 4+. If a game isnt in your favor you've domed a few odd amount of life.
yes I agree with that I run 3 fulminator mage in sideboard cause you can board it in more situations compared spreading seas (but still an option) and additional discard (the duress split between md and sb is growing up). I'm not into the damnation idea, at least in the main deck, while it can be a sideboard option in a heavy creature based decks meta (right now everybody seems to be resilient vs mass removals) in that case black sun zenith is great vs pod; but generally what you want is gaining tempo. You are lucky, I plaied Pod a lot before and it should be the real ban in my mind, you shouldn't be worried too by Pod itself but by voice of resurgence and kitchen finks restoration angel board while you are busy dealing with pod, steel sabotage is a flexible card in this situatin. There are few other good cards like damping matrix, shadow of doubt... Since Pod has so different angles, dedicating slots for the match up doesn't ensure you to increase the percentage, the best option is just to tempo race it out (hibernation bounces manadrops and sometime they have fyling, voice of resurgence and eventual tokens, pod)
I've taken to liking spreading seas mostly because it's a mana cheaper which, when you're on the draw, is the difference between interaction and just getting rofl-karned. For the pod match I've been using a pair of cages in the board and bring in them along with damnation. Yes voice is obscenely good against us, but we can usually keep their board under control so the left over token doesn't get crazy. But yeah if we're caught with our pants down and can't answer it right away it's an uphill battle indeed. I also have to agree that if anything was banned it should be pod as it's better than GSZ imo, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Because of all the uber value dudes (especially resto) they have is why I'm really wanting some kind of card advantage in the deck somewhere. I'm not down with damnation MD entirely, but is totally worth look into because of how easily we can rebuild.
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Even if I'm not Eyron: I tested Agony Warp as a 2-of and there were some situations in which both modes made a significant difference over a simple -2/-2. TBH the modes most probably could have been -3/-0 and -0/-1 or -2 but you can get quite some value out of it when killing a guy with the second mode while rendering an attack harmless with the first one. I mean, you could imagine killing a Nacatl while nullifying their 3/4 Goyf at once with just one card... doesn't seem to bad to me.
As for the Tron match up: I played like 8 games so far and it was either a cakewalk or hard as f***. It seems they really need T3 Tron to stand a chance, but you can't always hinder that. My advice would be: Be prepared to stop the T3 Karn at all costs, even if it means to mulligan a really good hand. It's worth nothing if you could curve BB -> Vendilion Clique -> Mistbind or something if Karn eats your lands and stuff.
Both Disfigure and Tragic Slip can kill the turn 1 plays, so the difference between them comes to what can they kill later on. Disfigure can kill the Pod combo enablers and a few creatures with toughness 2, while Tragic Slip only works if you have a Blossom active with tokens ready to chumpblock. Personally, I don't like neither of them for the maindeck and use Dismember in that place. Paying 4 life to kill a turn 1 Nacatl could look like a bad investment, but compare it to other options: with the typical cmc=2 black removal you only lose 3 life from the attack, but have also lost your turn 2 in which you couldn't cast Blossom nor Mana Leak or another removal; with Lightning Bolt you don't have the tempo loss and only costs 3 life that turn, but your manabase will deal you more damage later on the game.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
You know you can tap them for blue, float the mana, then play a land after and cast right?
Scenario:
T4, you have 3 River of Tears on the board with another land in hand. You want to cast Cryptic Command.
Tap all 3 rivers for blue, float the mana, play your 4th land, cast CC, done.
My only issue with rivers is playing instants, especially black removal, like Dismember or Go For The Throat, since you can't play a land on your opponents turn to change your rivers to black
That's why I play 2 rivers, 2 Watery Graves
4 Secluded Glen
3 Darkslick Shores
4 Mutavault
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Watery Grave
6 Island
1 Swamp
3 Creeping Tar Pit
Creatures
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Mistbind Clique
4 Scion of Oona
3 Vendilion Clique
Instants and Sorceries
4 Cryptic Command
2 Go for the Throat
2 Mana Leak
1 Agony Warp
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Bitterblossom
2 Dismember
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Annul
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Faarie Macabre
2 Spellskite
2 Vedalken Shackles
Other / Maybe board
2 Countersquall
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Hibernation
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Tragic Slip
Reasons:
Not a lot of people play zoo or robots in my local group, thus the lack of the conventional SB. There is a lot of mid-range and aggro decks instead, with a Death and Taxes deck, a BUG tempo, RUW control, and almost no combo decks. So those are my reasons for the sideboard.
High island count (10) for Vedalken Shackles to reliably hit things.
High discard spell count since there are threats that are hard to deal with (Mirran Crusader, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, gods, and a lot of undying spring to mind)
And I'm seriously considering Whip of Erebos maindeck, since a friend of mine used it in his UB Faeries on cockatrice several times to VERY good use. Something people should consider.
I cannot afford anymore life loss mechanics, so no 3 colours, no fetches, no Vendetta. The only reason I run Dismember is to hit things like Loxodon Smiter, Tarmogoyf, and other fatties. I run 4 Watery Graves to help support Vedalken Shackles. And I run only 2 thoughtseize, maxing on inquisition instead.
I'm considering dropping 2/3 Darkslick Shores for 2/3 River of Tears, cos I am that scared of drawing tapped mana T3+
Thoughts?
If you want to play Cryptic to tap and draw or something like that, it works, but if you want to counter an instant played on your turn (removal, opposing Cryptic, Chord of Calling, eot Gifts, Burn in late game mode...), you can't use that trick.
About the removal debate, I keep thinking Dismember is the most versatile at killing both early creatures and relatively big ones in the late game, falling only short to Tarmogoyfs with Blossom in the graveyard, Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze with a big graveyard, Voice tokens with a full board and real fatties (Deathmark in the sideboard takes care of most of them, btw). I don't think you want to kill such big creatures with Vendetta. Certainly, black removal is so conditional that there is not a single best spell you should run as a 4-of unless you know your metagame perfectly, but Dismember is the closest card to that for an unknown metagame.
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
overall agony warp only truly shines in the aggro matchup, but it's pretty nuts there.
hatebears should only be an issue if you keep an average or below hand and they have the nuts. all of our removal is great and discard can be back breaking on t1. Not a cakewalk match, but i don't think it's terrible either.
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
Yep, which is why I don't rate River of Tears as an essential land. I personally wouldn't run more than 2, and even then I'm a bit iffy about that...
I agree, I love Dismembers versatility. However, I'm not a fan of Deathmark since it's sorcery, but it has it's advantages, since I would run it over Tragic Slip.
And in which spot tapping out in your turn with no blue mana left is so crucial?
The tempo loss is HUGE and if they make you tap out reasonably they have a play to develop undisturbed in their next turn.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
You could cut 2 River of Tears, since I think everyone by now agrees that it's a bit iffy to run a full playset, and for for a basic swamp and 1x Sunken Ruins which will filter the loss of blue and keep you up on 22 blues but will cut you down on 14 turn 1 black sources, which is not a big deal, 14 are good enough. Other than that I am quite willing to give Tec edges more chances and on that list I would cut 2 Islands or an Island and a Watery Grave for 2 Tec edges.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
You don't like the TecEdge? I find them rather useful against numerous decks, while not Wastes imo they are too good to be cut.
From you list i would cut a basic island a river to leave room for TecEdge if you want my opinion.
Just out of curiosity how many 1 cmc discard spells do you run?
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
UB Faeries GP Record - 22/9/2, 1 Top 64
I still don't like the idea that tec edge is "great" against tron because I've never once been able to hit a land and keep them off tron without them having one of their 500 tutors ready or see them sitting with 3 tron lands out and being quite happy. But with the large amount of counter magic we have it might be a real thing to do now (outside of the natural turn 3 tron) with SSS being amazing against all of their tutors.
So far my biggest worry is getting out-valued by pod and run over by zoo while the rest of the match ups I'm fairly certain are at least even, and grossly in our favor if we stick a t2 blossom. What are everyone's plans against pod so far? In my experience it comes down to extremely tight play and not getting hit with a turn 2 birthing pod. BB is awesome, but a turn 2 pod is typically lights out if you left your racing shoes at home. However if neither deck gets their nutty opener the first mistake tends to snowball very fast because of the power level of the cards each deck has.
Smother, Smother, and... Smother?
I've been thinking about bile blight as well, but the few times I tried it, the double black was pretty awkward to come up with at times. Meanwhile agony warp is VERY easy to cast and acts as a pseudo lightning helix as it kills a 3 toughness dude and prevents 3 damage from another attacker which is very similar. What I've found myself wanting more than anything though is a source of card draw, but it's so hard to squeeze in. I've tried baby jace and compulsive research, but 3 mana sorceries are tough to cast and stick to our game plan.
My mana base right now is:
4x Secluded Glen
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Watery Grave
2x Darkslick Shores
4x Mutavault
3x Island
2x Swamp
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x River of Tears
1x Sunken Ruins
2x Tectonic Edge
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
The reason we don't play fetches is because of damage. In UBx Fae every life point is essential. Seeing as thoughtseize domes you for 2. So do shock lands. And finally the key domer is BB. Seeing as we have no way to gain life back, every life counts. Note we also dont do anything till turns 4+. If a game isnt in your favor you've domed a few odd amount of life.
Decks:
Standard:
Nope
Modern:
Mono-Green Nykthos
Gifts Tron
Melira Pod
Legacy:
Maverick (retired)
I've taken to liking spreading seas mostly because it's a mana cheaper which, when you're on the draw, is the difference between interaction and just getting rofl-karned. For the pod match I've been using a pair of cages in the board and bring in them along with damnation. Yes voice is obscenely good against us, but we can usually keep their board under control so the left over token doesn't get crazy. But yeah if we're caught with our pants down and can't answer it right away it's an uphill battle indeed. I also have to agree that if anything was banned it should be pod as it's better than GSZ imo, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Because of all the uber value dudes (especially resto) they have is why I'm really wanting some kind of card advantage in the deck somewhere. I'm not down with damnation MD entirely, but is totally worth look into because of how easily we can rebuild.