4 to the face is very powerful, and that flexibility is very important and the reason why I would never run Flame Slash mainboard. You're also comparing Sorcery speed to Instant speed, which is not even remotely close in power. It's not hard to imagine a situation where the board stalls, and it gets played and flashed back with Snapcaster Mage. Being able to hit a Resto flashing in to block Delver or kill an end of turn Deceiver Exarch is powerful.
If Jeff Hoogland can find the mana to flashback a Burst Lightning kicked, then I'm sure we can flashback Stoke the Flames especially since Snapcaster can count as 1 of the mana himself.
Edit: I also love the mind games aspect of this card. A Twin player can literally tap out all out all our mana, but as long as we have 4 creatures, he/she can't combo off without the fear of Stoke the Flames.
4 to the face is very powerful, and that flexibility is very important and the reason why I would never run Flame Slash mainboard. You're also comparing Sorcery speed to Instant speed, which is not even remotely close in power. It's not hard to imagine a situation where the board stalls, and it gets played and flashed back with Snapcaster Mage. Being able to hit a Resto flashing in to block Delver or kill an end of turn Deceiver Exarch is powerful.
If Jeff Hoogland can find the mana to flashback a Burst Lightning kicked, then I'm sure we can flashback Stoke the Flames especially since Snapcaster can count as 1 of the mana himself.
Edit: I also love the mind games aspect of this card. A Twin player can literally tap out all out all our mana, but as long as we have 4 creatures, he/she can't combo off without the fear of Stoke the Flames.
There are already a lot of unconditionally cheap cards in the deck that solve creature problems. I mean it obviously CAN be good but it also CAN be uncastable in a 19 land deck. I'm willing to believe I'm wrong and I will test it but it definitely looks inconsistent.
I don't think Burst Lightning is an apt comparison since Burst can be in the deck because it is cheap by default while Stoke is not.
Don't you think the Twin player would be wondering why you aren't attacking with your 4 creatures? They would likely just wait.
It doesn't have to be 4 creatures, it can be 2 creatures and 2 mana or any combination. With two or even one active Young Pyromancer, there's a lot you can pull off in a turn's worth because every spell essentially generates R for Stoke the Flames.
This isn't a card that's an auto 4 of, this is a card with a lot of power and utility that takes advantage of the fact that 1/1's generally aren't good attackers and will sit on defense a good portion of the time. It also hits Spellskite and Eidolon of Rhetoric which are the bane of this deck. I've personally never liked Burst Lightning despite it being the next best Instant speed Shock, and I've always wanted a spell that deals 4 to creature/player that isn't Char or Psionic Blast. I think if it fits the role well.
And 10/14 of your creatures can't attack into a potential Exarch without bluffing a Lightning Bolt, not counting unflipped Delvers. If nothing else, it makes the opponent think twice about comboing off when you have 4 untapped creatures.
Ah I didn't realized you could pay for the colored mana cost with creatures of that color, that makes it a lot nicer. I run two Burst Lightning so maybe I'll try it instead of that, though I like the flexibility of Burst Lightning a lot.
I keep a hand of Mountain, Sulfur Falls,2x Mana Leak, Remand, Snapcaster, Spell Snare on the play. Turn 1 Goblin Guide I have no answer to. Turn 2 I chump block a Goblin Guide with a Snapcaster Mage. I draw another Snapcaster Mage later with nothing other than counters to flashback. I die to Hellspark Elementals' unearth which I have no answers to.
Game 2:
I keep a hand of Young Pyromancer, Vapor Snag, Sword of Light and Shadow, Snapcaster Mage, Misty Rainforest, Scalding Tarn, and another land. I Vapor Snag a Goblin Guide on turn 1. I run out the Young Pyromancer turn 2 to get Searing Blooded. Turn 3 I drop the Sword, but get hit back by double Goblin Guide. Turn 4 I Vapor Snag a Goblin Guide and block the other. I die to 2 Rift Bolts and a Lava Spike.
Round 2: Tron
Game 1:
He mulls down to 4 and I drop a turn 1 Delver on the play. I almost forgot to fetch a basic due to Ghost Quarter, giving me just enough to Spell Snare a Pyroclasm. He dies shortly after.
Game 2:
I manage another turn 1 Delver, but he lands a turn 3 Choke. I have enough lands in my hand to deploy another Snapcaster Mage and have Mana Leak up the next turn. He gets stuck on 8 mana for a while despite having completed Tron. I manage to get him down to 3 life, missing 3 turns to top deck a Grim Lavamancer or a Lightning Bolt. There's a sequence of Oblivion Stone blowing up Choke along with my threats, I draw a Cryptic Command but is unable to land a Delver of Secrets and leave up Cryptic Command despite having 5 lands due to drawing the 2 basic Mountains in my deck. I die to Ulamog and a couple of Wurmcoil Engines.
Game 3:
I keep a hand of Serum Visions, Gitaxian Probe, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage, Lightning Bolt, and 1 Island hand. I miss the land on the Serum Visions and the 2nd turn draw, but I hit it with on the Gitaxian Probe, enabling a turn 2 Young Pyromancer. His hand is 2x Oblivion Stone, and enough pieces to complete Tron on turn 4. I start pressuring his life total, and he lands an Oblivion Stone. After casting Snapcaster Mage, he blows up his first Oblivion Stone. I land a Blood Moon as he already has Tron, he casts his second Oblivion Stone. I start putting up more pressure with a Delver of Secrets, he durdles for a turn. Oblivion Stone gets blown up again, I can only land a Young Pyromancer this time, he Ugin's Eye for a Ulagmog, I concede.
Overall I drew really poorly, drawing 1 Lightning Bolt in 4 games. I needed good counters against the Tron deck and burn spells against the burn deck and got neither. One of the problems with the deck is that because I'm tempo, it's important to draw the right answers to the right threats but also have the right threats for the wrong answers while being efficient with mana. That just didn't happen this time around.
I keep a hand of Mountain, Sulfur Falls,2x Mana Leak, Remand, Snapcaster, Spell Snare on the play. Turn 1 Goblin Guide I have no answer to. Turn 2 I chump block a Goblin Guide with a Snapcaster Mage. I draw another Snapcaster Mage later with nothing other than counters to flashback. I die to Hellspark Elementals' unearth which I have no answers to.
Game 2:
I keep a hand of Young Pyromancer, Vapor Snag, Sword of Light and Shadow, Snapcaster Mage, Misty Rainforest, Scalding Tarn, and another land. I Vapor Snag a Goblin Guide on turn 1. I run out the Young Pyromancer turn 2 to get Searing Blooded. Turn 3 I drop the Sword, but get hit back by double Goblin Guide. Turn 4 I Vapor Snag a Goblin Guide and block the other. I die to 2 Rift Bolts and a Lava Spike.
Round 2: Tron
Game 1:
He mulls down to 4 and I drop a turn 1 Delver on the play. I almost forgot to fetch a basic due to Ghost Quarter, giving me just enough to Spell Snare a Pyroclasm. He dies shortly after.
Game 2:
I manage another turn 1 Delver, but he lands a turn 3 Choke. I have enough lands in my hand to deploy another Snapcaster Mage and have Mana Leak up the next turn. He gets stuck on 8 mana for a while despite having completed Tron. I manage to get him down to 3 life, missing 3 turns to top deck a Grim Lavamancer or a Lightning Bolt. There's a sequence of Oblivion Stone blowing up Choke along with my threats, I draw a Cryptic Command but is unable to land a Delver of Secrets and leave up Cryptic Command despite having 5 lands due to drawing the 2 basic Mountains in my deck. I die to Ulamog and a couple of Wurmcoil Engines.
Game 3:
I keep a hand of Serum Visions, Gitaxian Probe, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage, Lightning Bolt, and 1 Island hand. I miss the land on the Serum Visions and the 2nd turn draw, but I hit it with on the Gitaxian Probe, enabling a turn 2 Young Pyromancer. His hand is 2x Oblivion Stone, and enough pieces to complete Tron on turn 4. I start pressuring his life total, and he lands an Oblivion Stone. After casting Snapcaster Mage, he blows up his first Oblivion Stone. I land a Blood Moon as he already has Tron, he casts his second Oblivion Stone. I start putting up more pressure with a Delver of Secrets, he durdles for a turn. Oblivion Stone gets blown up again, I can only land a Young Pyromancer this time, he Ugin's Eye for a Ulagmog, I concede.
Overall I drew really poorly, drawing 1 Lightning Bolt in 4 games. I needed good counters against the Tron deck and burn spells against the burn deck and got neither. One of the problems with the deck is that because I'm tempo, it's important to draw the right answers to the right threats but also have the right threats for the wrong answers while being efficient with mana. That just didn't happen this time around.
The luck of a tempo deck is that it can stretch the boundaries between aggro and control depending on the MU.
Against a burn deck you have to be the control deck for example: young pyromancer is pretty bad, i would side in all the counter and all the burn possible playing like a UWR control, without the problem of flooding that makes UWR folds to burn.
Tron is a problem: burns are bad while creatures and hard counters are very good, not having much of the latter molten rain is my SB option here (while i understand also a Spreading sea choice instead, but i still have to prove it myself).
To have the right answer and the right threat is crucial to SB and mull aggressively in unfavorable MUs.
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
1. I disagree mainly due to the ability to tap all of the opponent's creatures, which is game breaking because that's one of the only ways for the 1/1 elementals and Snapcasters/Pyromancer to get in for damage. If we're going to play with a perfect mana base (19 colored lands), there's no reason not to run it since we have all the extra draws to hit our land drops.
2. The keep was fine, you're only going to get turn 1 Delver 40% of the time, so it's not worth mulling for it. I had 5 draws to get a land, I'd have to break extraordinarily hard to miss the 2nd land drop (and I didn't miss it).
3. I run 2 Vapor Snags and 2 Cryptic Commands as additional bounce/tap. Vapor Snag is very situational as it only answers 3/60 cards in the Tron deck.
2. The keep was fine, you're only going to get turn 1 Delver 40% of the time, so it's not worth mulling for it. I had 5 draws to get a land, I'd have to break extraordinarily hard to miss the 2nd land drop (and I didn't miss it).
I wouldn't have kept that hand not because of the lands but because is pretty terrible against RG Tron and you need to draw too many cards to have a chance: 1, or better, 2 lands; an hard counter for Pyroclasm assuming you haven't sided out Snares; no answer for an early karn or O-stone; just a bolt you can't cast immediately and a pyro isn't nearly enough pressure; and so on...
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Haven't checked this thread in a while. I crossed over to the dark side an started playing twin. What do you guys think about Illusory Angel being modern legal now? Does it fit in this deck in any number?
Cons
Deckspace is pretty tight regarding creatures
Hard to leave up mana after playing this
You HAVE to play a spell before it
Doesnt have flash
Pros
We have lots of cheap and even free spells
Doesn't die to bolt
Can easily take over a game
Can go toe to toe with resto and even some goyfs and survive (those have always been one of the decks' biggest weaknesses)
It doesn't seem like an instant 4 of but it doesnt seem awful either.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
I was actually wondering the same thing when I saw it. It seems quite good with Probe, but it could mess up the ability to flip delver. I also find that our deck is particularly weak to removal, so having that 4 toughness could be very useful for us.
I think it at least warrants testing as a 2 of. The interaction with probe is great. Peek at their hand (and maybe produce a 1/1) and if the coast is clear drop a cheap flying fatty. I think if its good enough it will probably be a 1-of so flipping delver shouldn't be too concerning. And if we see this instead of flipping delver then at least theres a plan b for when delver gets bolted.
I'm on the fence.
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
Why would you play Illusory Angel over Vendilion Clique?
I think the main reason is that it doesn't die to Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Pyroclasm, Electrolyze, or Anger of the Gods, which hit every other threat in this deck. However, I still don't like it because you often need 4 mana to play it.
Why would you play Illusory Angel over Vendilion Clique?
I think the main reason is that it doesn't die to Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Pyroclasm, Electrolyze, or Anger of the Gods, which hit every other threat in this deck. However, I still don't like it because you often need 4 mana to play it.
I don't like it too, is barely good only with Probes which incidentally are usually played far before in the match, and then need to be topdecked to enable the angel.
It's not resto angel, if you want an angel splash white, a mere single mana worths the flash clause and the incidental flickering of snap value/protection from removals.
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Found this thread and with the increasing popularity decided to try it out (using the decklist at the end) on Modo. I played my first 20 games now (2-mans and 8-mans) and while I've fairly good results overall I realise I must be doing something wrong. My matchresult so far (from best to worst matchup) are:
BG 3-0
Jund 2-0
Affinity 1-0
Storm 1-0
Boggles 1-1
Fairies 1-0
Scapeshift 1-0
Zoo 1-0
Mirror 0-1
AngelPod 0-1
UWtron 0-1
UWR 1-4
Making a total of 13-7, but what stands out to me is that I can't seem to be winning against UWR and really only lost to control matchups. My sideboard strategy for UWR has been a bit varied but something like: +2 Combust, +2 Counterflux, +2 Spellskite, + 1 Bloodmoon, -1 Pillar of Flame, -1 Electrolyze, - 1 Peek, -1 Vapor snag, -1 bolt, -2 spell snare. As you can see a bit all over the place, thoughts on the strategy here? Also what's the key to this matchup? I guess I have to try being aggresive since even with a couple of Combusts and fluxes I don't really see myself winning the long game, but if I do go aggresive paths and bolts eats me up, if I play it slower I feel I'm not getting enough pressure before they can wrath.
Innistrad-RTR
UWR Flash: 7-1, 1 FNM Win-A-Box
Rakdos Aggro: 20-8
UW Flash: 11-5
Boros Aggro: 3-1
Jund: 42-12-3, 4 TNM Win-A-Box, 2 Koopa Standard IQs, Gatecrash Game Day Champion, M14 Game Day Champion
RTR - Theros
RDW 6-0 1 TNM Win-A-Box
Esper Control 7-4
Boros Burn 3-1
RW Devotion 3-1
Monoblack Devotion 8-4
If you need to specifically kill 4 toughness creatures you should play Flame Slash.
If Jeff Hoogland can find the mana to flashback a Burst Lightning kicked, then I'm sure we can flashback Stoke the Flames especially since Snapcaster can count as 1 of the mana himself.
Edit: I also love the mind games aspect of this card. A Twin player can literally tap out all out all our mana, but as long as we have 4 creatures, he/she can't combo off without the fear of Stoke the Flames.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
There are already a lot of unconditionally cheap cards in the deck that solve creature problems. I mean it obviously CAN be good but it also CAN be uncastable in a 19 land deck. I'm willing to believe I'm wrong and I will test it but it definitely looks inconsistent.
I don't think Burst Lightning is an apt comparison since Burst can be in the deck because it is cheap by default while Stoke is not.
Don't you think the Twin player would be wondering why you aren't attacking with your 4 creatures? They would likely just wait.
This isn't a card that's an auto 4 of, this is a card with a lot of power and utility that takes advantage of the fact that 1/1's generally aren't good attackers and will sit on defense a good portion of the time. It also hits Spellskite and Eidolon of Rhetoric which are the bane of this deck. I've personally never liked Burst Lightning despite it being the next best Instant speed Shock, and I've always wanted a spell that deals 4 to creature/player that isn't Char or Psionic Blast. I think if it fits the role well.
And 10/14 of your creatures can't attack into a potential Exarch without bluffing a Lightning Bolt, not counting unflipped Delvers. If nothing else, it makes the opponent think twice about comboing off when you have 4 untapped creatures.
Round 1: Burn
Game 1:
I keep a hand of Mountain, Sulfur Falls,2x Mana Leak, Remand, Snapcaster, Spell Snare on the play. Turn 1 Goblin Guide I have no answer to. Turn 2 I chump block a Goblin Guide with a Snapcaster Mage. I draw another Snapcaster Mage later with nothing other than counters to flashback. I die to Hellspark Elementals' unearth which I have no answers to.
Game 2:
I keep a hand of Young Pyromancer, Vapor Snag, Sword of Light and Shadow, Snapcaster Mage, Misty Rainforest, Scalding Tarn, and another land. I Vapor Snag a Goblin Guide on turn 1. I run out the Young Pyromancer turn 2 to get Searing Blooded. Turn 3 I drop the Sword, but get hit back by double Goblin Guide. Turn 4 I Vapor Snag a Goblin Guide and block the other. I die to 2 Rift Bolts and a Lava Spike.
Round 2: Tron
Game 1:
He mulls down to 4 and I drop a turn 1 Delver on the play. I almost forgot to fetch a basic due to Ghost Quarter, giving me just enough to Spell Snare a Pyroclasm. He dies shortly after.
Game 2:
I manage another turn 1 Delver, but he lands a turn 3 Choke. I have enough lands in my hand to deploy another Snapcaster Mage and have Mana Leak up the next turn. He gets stuck on 8 mana for a while despite having completed Tron. I manage to get him down to 3 life, missing 3 turns to top deck a Grim Lavamancer or a Lightning Bolt. There's a sequence of Oblivion Stone blowing up Choke along with my threats, I draw a Cryptic Command but is unable to land a Delver of Secrets and leave up Cryptic Command despite having 5 lands due to drawing the 2 basic Mountains in my deck. I die to Ulamog and a couple of Wurmcoil Engines.
Game 3:
I keep a hand of Serum Visions, Gitaxian Probe, Young Pyromancer, Snapcaster Mage, Lightning Bolt, and 1 Island hand. I miss the land on the Serum Visions and the 2nd turn draw, but I hit it with on the Gitaxian Probe, enabling a turn 2 Young Pyromancer. His hand is 2x Oblivion Stone, and enough pieces to complete Tron on turn 4. I start pressuring his life total, and he lands an Oblivion Stone. After casting Snapcaster Mage, he blows up his first Oblivion Stone. I land a Blood Moon as he already has Tron, he casts his second Oblivion Stone. I start putting up more pressure with a Delver of Secrets, he durdles for a turn. Oblivion Stone gets blown up again, I can only land a Young Pyromancer this time, he Ugin's Eye for a Ulagmog, I concede.
Overall I drew really poorly, drawing 1 Lightning Bolt in 4 games. I needed good counters against the Tron deck and burn spells against the burn deck and got neither. One of the problems with the deck is that because I'm tempo, it's important to draw the right answers to the right threats but also have the right threats for the wrong answers while being efficient with mana. That just didn't happen this time around.
The luck of a tempo deck is that it can stretch the boundaries between aggro and control depending on the MU.
Against a burn deck you have to be the control deck for example: young pyromancer is pretty bad, i would side in all the counter and all the burn possible playing like a UWR control, without the problem of flooding that makes UWR folds to burn.
Tron is a problem: burns are bad while creatures and hard counters are very good, not having much of the latter molten rain is my SB option here (while i understand also a Spreading sea choice instead, but i still have to prove it myself).
To have the right answer and the right threat is crucial to SB and mull aggressively in unfavorable MUs.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
2. The keep was fine, you're only going to get turn 1 Delver 40% of the time, so it's not worth mulling for it. I had 5 draws to get a land, I'd have to break extraordinarily hard to miss the 2nd land drop (and I didn't miss it).
3. I run 2 Vapor Snags and 2 Cryptic Commands as additional bounce/tap. Vapor Snag is very situational as it only answers 3/60 cards in the Tron deck.
I wouldn't have kept that hand not because of the lands but because is pretty terrible against RG Tron and you need to draw too many cards to have a chance: 1, or better, 2 lands; an hard counter for Pyroclasm assuming you haven't sided out Snares; no answer for an early karn or O-stone; just a bolt you can't cast immediately and a pyro isn't nearly enough pressure; and so on...
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
Cons
Deckspace is pretty tight regarding creatures
Hard to leave up mana after playing this
You HAVE to play a spell before it
Doesnt have flash
Pros
We have lots of cheap and even free spells
Doesn't die to bolt
Can easily take over a game
Can go toe to toe with resto and even some goyfs and survive (those have always been one of the decks' biggest weaknesses)
It doesn't seem like an instant 4 of but it doesnt seem awful either.
I'm on the fence.
I think the main reason is that it doesn't die to Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Pyroclasm, Electrolyze, or Anger of the Gods, which hit every other threat in this deck. However, I still don't like it because you often need 4 mana to play it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I don't like it too, is barely good only with Probes which incidentally are usually played far before in the match, and then need to be topdecked to enable the angel.
It's not resto angel, if you want an angel splash white, a mere single mana worths the flash clause and the incidental flickering of snap value/protection from removals.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
BG 3-0
Jund 2-0
Affinity 1-0
Storm 1-0
Boggles 1-1
Fairies 1-0
Scapeshift 1-0
Zoo 1-0
Mirror 0-1
AngelPod 0-1
UWtron 0-1
UWR 1-4
Making a total of 13-7, but what stands out to me is that I can't seem to be winning against UWR and really only lost to control matchups. My sideboard strategy for UWR has been a bit varied but something like: +2 Combust, +2 Counterflux, +2 Spellskite, + 1 Bloodmoon, -1 Pillar of Flame, -1 Electrolyze, - 1 Peek, -1 Vapor snag, -1 bolt, -2 spell snare. As you can see a bit all over the place, thoughts on the strategy here? Also what's the key to this matchup? I guess I have to try being aggresive since even with a couple of Combusts and fluxes I don't really see myself winning the long game, but if I do go aggresive paths and bolts eats me up, if I play it slower I feel I'm not getting enough pressure before they can wrath.
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Sulfur Falls
4 Steam Vents
7 Island
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Blood Moon
1 Electrolyze
1 Peek
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Vapor Snag
4 Mana Leak
4 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
1 Vandalblast
2 Spellskite
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Shattering Spree
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Combust
2 Counterflux
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Blood Moon