If you don't plan on going full aggro, i.e. go under some decks, you might as well play a bigger, more resilient variant of zoo. The trick is redundant fast aggro starts and ways to overcome blockers, combined with reach.
There are more threats in the bushwhacker list than there are answers in most decks. The decks that have, prey on zoo-esque decks anyway.
The uptick of Jeskai is what's making me move back up to 4 copies of Voice, it's interesting how we came to different conclusions. If you find him early against them then it becomes so much easier to beat them. Pre-Jace, Jeskai control was a cake walk, now that they have Secure the Wastes and PW's, the macthup has become harder, but that's where 3x Gaddock Teeg really shines out of the board. That and Dromoka's Commands/Avacyn. I think that matchup is all about the 2 drops and forcing them to rely on Path instead of Bolt, which is what Big Zoo does well.
Lantern has often ragged on this guy for being too slow -- which in a lot of cases he is -- but here we are playing a 2/2 that rarely triggers anyway.
Thoughts on Fleecemane Lion as people are suiting up Jeskai, Humans, and Affinity? He's played much better than Voice against Jeskai and Humans.
I just wonder how difficult it will be to trigger his ability. Hes still a 3/3 for 2. 4 Voices are main for me due to my local meta being control heavy, a pair of those guys in the board could be a thing though.
Voice is so unbelievably bad against Teferi, Hero of Dominaria (stock runs 2x Teferi), I don't know if you've noticed.
My Jeskai opponents ignore voice until they can start slamming 4 and 5 drops -- which Voice is atrocious against. Voice is very much a punisher effect, really really good against bad players, and pretty medium against players who recognize that he's just a 2/2.
Repeatable Ousts requires hastey threats or sticky ones. Monstrous Fleecemane Lion isn't actually that hard, since you just leave mana up once you untap with 5 mana (easy-peasy when they play path). Obviously, if you stick it turn 2 against Jeskai they'll bolt it but we've got enough redundancy at 2 that I don't worry too much about that.
Voice is so unbelievably bad against Teferi, Hero of Dominaria (stock runs 2x Teferi), I don't know if you've noticed.
My Jeskai opponents ignore voice until they can start slamming 4 and 5 drops -- which Voice is atrocious against. Voice is very much a punisher effect, really really good against bad players, and pretty medium against players who recognize that he's just a 2/2.
Repeatable Ousts requires hastey threats or sticky ones. Monstrous Fleecemane Lion isn't actually that hard, since you just leave mana up once you untap with 5 mana (easy-peasy when they play path). Obviously, if you stick it turn 2 against Jeskai they'll bolt it but we've got enough redundancy at 2 that I don't worry too much about that.
I agree that Voice can be low impact against UWx Control, but I don't think Fleecemane Lion is a significant improvement. While its not hard to reach 5 mana in the matchup, constantly holding up 5 mana for Monstrous is a crippling tempo loss, especially considering they have Path and bounce/tuck effects to deal with a Monstrous lion.
Zulander is a huge fan of Teeg and I am too, but he just dies to the entire UWr deck. I think Molten Rain and Planeswalkers are the way to go in the matchup, mostly because they are way harder to interact with than creatures.
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Voice is bad against 6 cards in the deck, 4 path and 2 teferi, and literally every card in Zoo fits the same description. Voice is great because it lets you dictate how and when they play spells, which puts you in the drivers seat. Jeskai in general is easy because our deck makes Bolt a mediocre card, and Jeskai plays 6-8 bolts in the main, along with counterspells which are not great. Sure they have some cards that are relevant, but they don't always have the best cards. When they get the UW control draws then it can be tough, but not unwinnable. I personally have upped to 4 voice and have domri in the main. You have to continually stress their path to exiles, and if you can do that then you can win.
I also don't think Fleecemane is the right call. If you're gonna spend 5 mana then just spend the 5 mana and play Sigarda or some other fattie. I do think that this allows us to use some spicy sideboard cards that may not have been on the radar before, and I personally love Mastery of the Unseen against them. They usually don't have an answer to enchantments post board, and the card just punishes their Teferi "tucks".
Zulander, I agree with your assessment of Voice. For a long time I felt like voice was subpar. Whenever I talk to control players and think back on the matchup Voice doesn't have a very visible impact but it does change the control player's play style to play at sorcery speed which limits the impact of counters and also the body after verdict/wrath really helps with our rebuild ability.
However I do see Lugger's point. Some U/W/x decks have a lot of planeswalkers and are already going at sorcery speed so voice is just a 2/2. That is a case you just side them out. I still think you keep voice main. It just fights sooo many decks.
Also side-note had a great game against infect with voice on the battlefield. Was doing what you are suppose to do, and killing the creatures during my turn to minimize the impact of their pump spells and kept getting those elemental tokens and bashing face. Never had such a great time against infect.
constantly holding up 5 mana for Monstrous is a crippling tempo loss, especially considering they have Path and bounce/tuck effects to deal with a Monstrous lion.
Voice is bad against 6 cards in the deck, 4 path and 2 teferi, and literally every card in Zoo fits the same description.
I see your point but paying 2 mana for a 2/2 that trades with a lot seems not quite worth it to me. For me, Voice is always insane against bad players since they either overvalue removing it or are dumb about it's abilities. Good control players tend to evaluate Voice on it's face -- a 2/2 that restricts play lines.
[quote from="Zulander »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/aggro-tempo/565682-zoo-video-primer?comment=8883"]Voice is bad against 6 cards in the deck, 4 path and 2 teferi, and literally every card in Zoo fits the same description.
I see your point but paying 2 mana for a 2/2 that trades with a lot seems not quite worth it to me. For me, Voice is always insane against bad players since they either overvalue removing it or are dumb about it's abilities. Good control players tend to evaluate Voice on it's face -- a 2/2 that restricts play lines.
Whatever big threat you want to play, go ahead. You can even make a case for Stormbreath Dragon as it's the best threat against UW, so however you decide to line your board up against your meta is fine. I think the ability of Voice impacting even a good players lines is worth it, again against Jeskai they only have 4 path to exiles that do much damage against you, so forcing them to find path for all your creatures is where they lose. Outside of Noble/Nacatl, bolt is bad which makes them have path for the other 21 creatures you play. Taking Voice out for Fleecemane Lion turns on their bolts/helixes for more creatures which gives them more flexibility. This is the largest reason why Jeskai is (was pre-walkers, I haven't tested enough currently) a good matchup and UW a bad one.
constantly holding up 5 mana for Monstrous is a crippling tempo loss, especially considering they have Path and bounce/tuck effects to deal with a Monstrous lion.
The uptick of Jeskai is what's making me move back up to 4 copies of Voice, it's interesting how we came to different conclusions. If you find him early against them then it becomes so much easier to beat them. Pre-Jace, Jeskai control was a cake walk, now that they have Secure the Wastes and PW's, the macthup has become harder, but that's where 3x Gaddock Teeg really shines out of the board. That and Dromoka's Commands/Avacyn. I think that matchup is all about the 2 drops and forcing them to rely on Path instead of Bolt, which is what Big Zoo does well.
Regarding Dromoka's Command VS UWx: I guess vs UWr its mostly used to counter burn-based removal? Being able to kill Search or Detention Sphere is nice too. But if you don't have creatures in play it can become a dead card. Is there anything else I'm missing about this card in the matchup?
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@Zoolander, what sideboard would you run in the current meta (Jeskai Control, Humans, Mono Green Tron and KCI)?
I went to Domri’s in the main Jeskai. And currently have the following sideboard
3 Blood Moon (Jeskai, BGx, Tron)
2 damping matrix (Tron, KCI)
2 Thalia (KCI, Tron)
2 gaddock teeg (KCI, Tron, Jeskai)
1 ancient grudge (KCI)
1 Stony Silence (KCI, Tron)
1 Archangel (humans, Jeskai)
2 Kozilek’s return (Humans)
1 Grafdigger’s cage
I can't give an exact board, but I know I'd start off with these:
3 Damping Matrix
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Stony Silence
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Kozilek's Return
2-0 blue moon (this one was absolutely savage but it's really just a story about me having a good time and my opponent getting blown out repeatedly so I'm not going to recount it; this shop was 2 hrs from me and this was one of the "good players" so it felt pretty good)
2-0 valakut
1-2 humans
2-1 tron
ID into top 8 split.
Really short tourney. Not that much to report.
For those figuring out the split between Blood Moon and Damping Sphere and picking your battles with Tron, Valakut, and storm-- Don't play Blood Moon! Play 2x Tectonic Edge. My Valakut opponent never got past 4 mana in game 2 after I stuck a Knight of the Reliquary. Against Valakut you have to draw a Blood Moon. If you play Tec edge you can draw a tec edge or you can draw a Knight.
Tectonic Edge is also great against Jeskai Control -- keeping them off of Cryptic or Verdict. I don't know if I like two against them but I do like sideboarding out at least one Arid Mesa for a Tectonic Edge. It's less good against Tron but I think our Tron MU is actually rather fine. I lost game 1 to turn after a natty turn 3 all is dust. Then ran him over with 2/3 Tarmogoyfs and a well timed Revelry on a map.
P.S. Is anyone looking to RPTQ foil out their Hierarchs? I'm your hookup for one!
2-0 blue moon (this one was absolutely savage but it's really just a story about me having a good time and my opponent getting blown out repeatedly so I'm not going to recount it; this shop was 2 hrs from me and this was one of the "good players" so it felt pretty good)
2-0 valakut
1-2 humans
2-1 tron
ID into top 8 split.
Really short tourney. Not that much to report.
For those figuring out the split between Blood Moon and Damping Sphere and picking your battles with Tron, Valakut, and storm-- Don't play Blood Moon! Play 2x Tectonic Edge. My Valakut opponent never got past 4 mana in game 2 after I stuck a Knight of the Reliquary. Against Valakut you have to draw a Blood Moon. If you play Tec edge you can draw a tec edge or you can draw a Knight.
Tectonic Edge is also great against Jeskai Control -- keeping them off of Cryptic or Verdict. I don't know if I like two against them but I do like sideboarding out at least one Arid Mesa for a Tectonic Edge. It's less good against Tron but I think our Tron MU is actually rather fine. I lost game 1 to turn after a natty turn 3 all is dust. Then ran him over with 2/3 Tarmogoyfs and a well timed Revelry on a map.
P.S. Is anyone looking to RPTQ foil out their Hierarchs? I'm your hookup for one!
Would the newly spoiled Ajani planeswalker be any good in big zoo from the sideboard versus the more grindy matchups or where you just need to be bigger?
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
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There are more threats in the bushwhacker list than there are answers in most decks. The decks that have, prey on zoo-esque decks anyway.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW
Thanks.
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Voice of Resurgence
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Bloodbraid Elf
3x Path to Exile
2x Lightning Helix
If you want to play Big BBE Zoo, then season this as you see fit.
Thoughts on Fleecemane Lion as people are suiting up Jeskai, Humans, and Affinity? He's played much better than Voice against Jeskai and Humans.
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I just wonder how difficult it will be to trigger his ability. Hes still a 3/3 for 2. 4 Voices are main for me due to my local meta being control heavy, a pair of those guys in the board could be a thing though.
My Jeskai opponents ignore voice until they can start slamming 4 and 5 drops -- which Voice is atrocious against. Voice is very much a punisher effect, really really good against bad players, and pretty medium against players who recognize that he's just a 2/2.
Repeatable Ousts requires hastey threats or sticky ones. Monstrous Fleecemane Lion isn't actually that hard, since you just leave mana up once you untap with 5 mana (easy-peasy when they play path). Obviously, if you stick it turn 2 against Jeskai they'll bolt it but we've got enough redundancy at 2 that I don't worry too much about that.
I agree that Voice can be low impact against UWx Control, but I don't think Fleecemane Lion is a significant improvement. While its not hard to reach 5 mana in the matchup, constantly holding up 5 mana for Monstrous is a crippling tempo loss, especially considering they have Path and bounce/tuck effects to deal with a Monstrous lion.
Zulander is a huge fan of Teeg and I am too, but he just dies to the entire UWr deck. I think Molten Rain and Planeswalkers are the way to go in the matchup, mostly because they are way harder to interact with than creatures.
I also don't think Fleecemane is the right call. If you're gonna spend 5 mana then just spend the 5 mana and play Sigarda or some other fattie. I do think that this allows us to use some spicy sideboard cards that may not have been on the radar before, and I personally love Mastery of the Unseen against them. They usually don't have an answer to enchantments post board, and the card just punishes their Teferi "tucks".
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However I do see Lugger's point. Some U/W/x decks have a lot of planeswalkers and are already going at sorcery speed so voice is just a 2/2. That is a case you just side them out. I still think you keep voice main. It just fights sooo many decks.
Also side-note had a great game against infect with voice on the battlefield. Was doing what you are suppose to do, and killing the creatures during my turn to minimize the impact of their pump spells and kept getting those elemental tokens and bashing face. Never had such a great time against infect.
Read Fleecemane Lion.
They need Blessed Alliance or Settle the Wreckage if it's monstrous.
I see your point but paying 2 mana for a 2/2 that trades with a lot seems not quite worth it to me. For me, Voice is always insane against bad players since they either overvalue removing it or are dumb about it's abilities. Good control players tend to evaluate Voice on it's face -- a 2/2 that restricts play lines.
Also, I'm not paying 10 mana for four power via Mastery of the Unseen. IDK about you. I'd much rather play Whisperwood Elemental since it's a built in Selfless Spirit.
Whatever big threat you want to play, go ahead. You can even make a case for Stormbreath Dragon as it's the best threat against UW, so however you decide to line your board up against your meta is fine. I think the ability of Voice impacting even a good players lines is worth it, again against Jeskai they only have 4 path to exiles that do much damage against you, so forcing them to find path for all your creatures is where they lose. Outside of Noble/Nacatl, bolt is bad which makes them have path for the other 21 creatures you play. Taking Voice out for Fleecemane Lion turns on their bolts/helixes for more creatures which gives them more flexibility. This is the largest reason why Jeskai is (was pre-walkers, I haven't tested enough currently) a good matchup and UW a bad one.
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Whoops. The first part of my statement still stands though.
Regarding Dromoka's Command VS UWx: I guess vs UWr its mostly used to counter burn-based removal? Being able to kill Search or Detention Sphere is nice too. But if you don't have creatures in play it can become a dead card. Is there anything else I'm missing about this card in the matchup?
I can't give an exact board, but I know I'd start off with these:
3 Damping Matrix
3 Gaddock Teeg
1 Stony Silence
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Kozilek's Return
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Chopped the Top8 of a 1k on Saturday then headed to the team RPTQ on Sunday. Was quite the Magic weekend.
Edit: Played this at the 1k, not the RPTQ -- obviously.
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Scavenging Ooze
2x Voice of Resurgence
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Loxodon Smiter
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Path to Exile
2x Lightning Helix
1x Dromoka's Command
4x Windswept Heath
3x Arid Mesa
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
2x Stomping Ground
2x forest
1x plains
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Dromoka's Command
1x Shalai, voice of plenty
1x Kitchen finks
1x Domri Rade
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Tectonic edge
2x Damping Sphere
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Stony Silence
2x kozilek's return
1x Choke
2-0 blue moon (this one was absolutely savage but it's really just a story about me having a good time and my opponent getting blown out repeatedly so I'm not going to recount it; this shop was 2 hrs from me and this was one of the "good players" so it felt pretty good)
2-0 valakut
1-2 humans
2-1 tron
ID into top 8 split.
Really short tourney. Not that much to report.
For those figuring out the split between Blood Moon and Damping Sphere and picking your battles with Tron, Valakut, and storm-- Don't play Blood Moon! Play 2x Tectonic Edge. My Valakut opponent never got past 4 mana in game 2 after I stuck a Knight of the Reliquary. Against Valakut you have to draw a Blood Moon. If you play Tec edge you can draw a tec edge or you can draw a Knight.
Tectonic Edge is also great against Jeskai Control -- keeping them off of Cryptic or Verdict. I don't know if I like two against them but I do like sideboarding out at least one Arid Mesa for a Tectonic Edge. It's less good against Tron but I think our Tron MU is actually rather fine. I lost game 1 to turn after a natty turn 3 all is dust. Then ran him over with 2/3 Tarmogoyfs and a well timed Revelry on a map.
P.S. Is anyone looking to RPTQ foil out their Hierarchs? I'm your hookup for one!
Hey man congrats! How were the voices?
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Never resolved one.
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Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW