but i can't understand why you need to go in a lot of trouble to cast dreadhorde arcanist, ensure it won't die and can attack next turn to cast living end from graveyard just to get a bunch of 1/1's and some vengevines, it just require so much setup to do when all you need to do is just to cast 2 creatures to trigger vengevines.
yes, you may have purphoros but don't expect to have good chances of getting it when the list is not optimized for that. it's either you pick vengevine path or the living end path.
Edit: ok, i was quick to judge this list the first time i saw it without actually testing it. today i jammed a few games on xmage and i fell in love with it instantly! this is so fun to play!
but i can't understand why you need to go in a lot of trouble to cast dreadhorde arcanist, ensure it won't die and can attack next turn to cast living end from graveyard just to get a bunch of 1/1's and some vengevines, it just require so much setup to do when all you need to do is just to cast 2 creatures to trigger vengevines.
yes, you may have purphoros but don't expect to have good chances of getting it when the list is not optimized for that. it's either you pick vengevine path or the living end path.
With the new inclusion of Finale of Promise in my Jund Living Endvine list, it’s opened up a few new possibilities. Dreadhorde becomes less of a risk because we have a backup plan if it’s removed.
To be honest, the reason I took it into this direction is because I really really don’t like having to change up the decks mana base. All these lists splashing blue are gravitating further and further from the Vengevine plan and basically becoming Dredge with the exception of wanting Vengevines in the list. Dredge just does all of this stuff better and without the need for Vengevine.
I’ve always liked the Jund mana base with Vengevine decks.
I can see what you mean with Purporos plan, but if you consider how the old lists with BfB played out...it’s quite similar. You mill yourself and hit Vengevines and Living End. Then you cast Living End as a board wipe that also gets a bunch of your creatures back...
It’s a strange mixture of cards, sure...but it allows us to get a similarly powerful effect as BfB use to have.
At the very least, it’s a 2 mana board wipe with Finale of Promise...at the very most, it will kill the opponent as soon as it resolves. Either way you’d get value out of Living End in BfB’s place.
It saddens me that I’ve had to take such a strange route in order to keep Jund Dredgevine viable...but once again trying to throw Blue in all these lists is only serving to make them less consistent and just basically turning the deck into Dredge, which has better ways to win without wasting a slot on Vengevine.
Also keep in mind, all our 1/1’s mill our deck more. So when we hit Living End and resolve it, we can usually bring back Dreadhorde and loop LE for a 2nd time the following turn...insuring we mill Purphoros, and deal a huge amount of dmg to our opponent.
It’s an expensive strategy (which is why I haven’t jumped to build it in paper yet) but it seems to actually be working well. I’ll continue testing...but until I see a list that isn’t basically just Hogaak without Hogaak, I’m more interested in winnning as early as turn 3 with Living End and Vengevines as an added bonus, than trying to win through Vengevines and Amalgams when Batterskull pretty much prevents Vengevine from being effective at all.
I also removed Memnite from the deck. Not enough reason to run it anymore. Instead opted for 4 Cryptbreakers to give the deck both a draw and discard outlet that also works well with the other zombies in the deck. Keep in mind when we switch to BUG-Vine we lose the ability to run Force of Vigor in the side for g2. Force of Vigor is the best artifact removal in the format and it can win us games through graveyard hate easily.
If multiple Purphoros enter at the same time, do you get multiple triggers before the legend rules knocks all but one out? If so this could be a really cool combo. I would suggest more dredge cards and Cathartic Reunion rather than Satyr and Cryptbreaker. Both are pretty slow if you're trying to combo off by turn 3 or 4.
If multiple Purphoros enter at the same time, do you get multiple triggers before the legend rules knocks all but one out? If so this could be a really cool combo. I would suggest more dredge cards and Cathartic Reunion rather than Satyr and Cryptbreaker. Both are pretty slow if you're trying to combo off by turn 3 or 4.
I'd like to include Claim//Fame somehow to pull back a milled Arcanist but I'm just not sure there's room
Yes. Multiple Purphoros trigger before legend rule applies.
Also, don’t make the mistake I did by cutting the purphoros. The deck needs 4 to ensure a quick kill. Cryptbreaker is a must have in the deck because it is a draw engine that synergizes with Dreadhorde and Stitchers. It’s the only way to refill our hand since we aren’t playing a bunch of cycling cards like traditional Living End. Instead we opt for a more zombie focused mill strategy with emphasis on Vengevines. Cryptbreaker can discard our Living Ends and Purphoros to get some value. It’s basically taking Faithless Lootings spot in the deck alongside Insolent Neonate.
The deck has a surprisingly useful amount of card draw and Memory Sluice just serves to feed Dreadhorde cards when he’s in play, or opens up Finale of Promise to end the game on the spot.
Worse case scenario, we can keep board wiping our opponent with Living End until we mill Living End and Purphoros to kill our opponent. Vengevines fit very well in the deck...it’s not uncommon to hit 3 or 4 of them in 1 conspired Memory Sluice.
I’ve been thinking of taking out Satyr Wayfinder and using Glowspore Shaman instead...just to enable conspire with Memory Sluice.
Finally, Claim//Fame really isn’t a must have if you run Golgari Thug instead of Stinkweed. Golgari Thug is a bit slower...but it can return Dreadhorde to top of deck if we really need it back that bad, and it frees up a slot for a 3rd Finale of Promise (you’ll want that as a backup in case our opponent bolts Dreadhorde). Most of the time though, we can just cast recursive threats until we draw into another Dreadhorde or Finale.
Also as a big tip...always try to mull for Vengevine turn 2 or Dreadhorde turn 2. It’s a bit different than the old lists where you wanna play out a bunch of 1 drops on turn 1...you can Memory Sluice turn 1 and save your 1 drops for turn 2.
I feel we need another way to reliably cast LE.. Or if I go for the full playset of Arcanist, maybe another spell for him to target for value. As it stands your list doesn't have many targets besides LE and Memory Sluice. Maybe we could try a Grixis shell also utilizing Tome Scour? Or maybe it's just too cute. I'll make some changes and test out some of your recommendations.
If going for the purphoros combo, could we consider a singleton Deep Forest Hermit since hitting one of those alongside a pair of Purphoros should be GG. And if that's too cute then maybe at least a Haunted Dead or two?
I like the idea of having a 3rd copy of Finale if you're going all in on the combo game. Vengevine and Zombie package provides a nice aggro plan B as well
EDT
I like Claim//fame specifically because if it's in your graveyard you can recast the Reanimate half with an active Arcanist. But maybe Postmortem Lunge could be considered as well
I feel we need another way to reliably cast LE.. Or if I go for the full playset of Arcanist, maybe another spell for him to target for value. As it stands your list doesn't have many targets besides LE and Memory Sluice. Maybe we could try a Grixis shell also utilizing Tome Scour? Or maybe it's just too cute. I'll make some changes and test out some of your recommendations.
If going for the purphoros combo, could we consider a singleton Deep Forest Hermit since hitting one of those alongside a pair of Purphoros should be GG. And if that's too cute then maybe at least a Haunted Dead or two?
I like the idea of having a 3rd copy of Finale if you're going all in on the combo game. Vengevine and Zombie package provides a nice aggro plan B as well
EDT
I like Claim//fame specifically because if it's in your graveyard you can recast the Reanimate half with an active Arcanist. But maybe Postmortem Lunge could be considered as well
I’m not huge on Deep Forest Hermit. Just milling a couple of Purphoros is enough to close out the game when LE resolves. I did cut 1 copy of Memory Sluice to add a 3rd copy of Finale of Promise, because it usually ensures our LE going through even if they Path our Dreadhorde or have removal.
Even if we only get a few creatures back from LE in the early game, wiping the opponents board is usually enough to ensure a victory since they will be way behind compared to our board state, and most of our stuff just further mills our deck when it returns and continues setting up the OTK.
Postmortem Lunge does seem like an interesting addition...but the deck needs to be pretty creature heavy in order to enable Vengevines. Gotta be careful not to add too many spells.
On the subject of sideboard, I think cutting the Leyline of the Voids and replacing them with 2 copies of Surgical Extraction might be a better option as far as GY hate goes.
a little excited by Thrill of Possibility which when paired with izzet charm and merchant provide a decent instant speed discard packages again. it feels like the decks being pushed towards tempo rather than combo-aggro especially with all the flash creatures in simic that have been printed over the last couple of sets. ill be interested to see if a new vengevine build is possible after thrones release
i'm excited as well to try the new ELD cards, i'm looking specifically at merchant of the vale, thrill of possibility and stonecoil serpent, but i plan to try them in my RG vengevine which is a different deck. i plan to share my list in the RG vengevine thread once all ELD cards are revealed.
I think that is a huge step in the right direction. It validates the crab, which is currently the only real reason to run blue. These both synergize with Sluice as well. But without red we have little to no ways to discard from our hand. I'm thinking maybe a list such as
there are 2 sultai builds that consistently present in the mtgo 5-0 league results.
1 is a build with "glimpse and creeping chill" and the other build is with "collective brutality no chill". both this build has hedron crab in it.
Please post any Jund lists with Vengevine or deck ideas in the Jund archetype running Vengevine if you guys find anything.
I’m really not convinced that Sultai is the way to go with the deck. The Sultai lists are severely lacking on the ability to discard things without Faithless Looting.
Hogaakvine was obviously the peak of Bridgevines success...without Hogaak and Looting and BfB, we still need some way to have a powerful aggro list in these colors. I like the Living End combo I built with Vengevines (listed above), however it just seems to not be all that fast to set up, though it can OTK.
looting is the primary reason to play red and now it's gone and players already finding success adapting sultai.
I’ve tried playing the Sultai lists. I don’t think they have enough discard to warrant Vengevine, it can really fall short when you get stuck with a bunch of Vengevines in hand. Also, I keep feeling like the Sultai lists are just weaker versions of dredge. They even adopted Narcomoeba at this point.
I think there are still ways to make Vengevine work in a jund shell, especially with how powerful Cryptbreaker has become in a world without Faithless Looting.
The whole reason I fell in love with Bridgevine in the first place was because I didn’t like the awkward mana base in dredge, I liked the zombie theme, and explosive turn 1 plays.
It is a dangerous game to pitch cards that way, but I have dabbled in this thought experiment before.
And another card to consider if this is a gameplan being considered: Bone Picker.
(Another card worth considering in a build like that is Wild Cantor. Like an X=0 creature, it acts as a 'dark ritual' of sorts to power out Bone Picker. It also does the color fixing, getting us into black mana even off a basic forest or mountain. And it does a lot of the above things too - it can be effectively-zero-cost creature 1 of a two-creature turn to recur Vengevine).
someone mentioned wild cantor and bone picker in the RG thread and i like the idea of it to apply to BR color, BR has insolent neonate and carrion feeder to help discount bone picker.
Been playtesting with the 5-0 BUG list and hot damn this thing has wheels! I am really tempted to throw in some number of dredgers and Lotleth Trolls though. Anyone else experimenting?
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but i can't understand why you need to go in a lot of trouble to cast dreadhorde arcanist, ensure it won't die and can attack next turn to cast living end from graveyard just to get a bunch of 1/1's and some vengevines, it just require so much setup to do when all you need to do is just to cast 2 creatures to trigger vengevines.
yes, you may have purphoros but don't expect to have good chances of getting it when the list is not optimized for that. it's either you pick vengevine path or the living end path.
ok, i'll take back what i've said here. a BUG Vengevine list made 10th place in MTGO Modern PTQ event (8-1).
there's something going on here, it still doesn't have a discard engine but will definitely give it a try.
Decklist: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-ptq-2019-09-09#darthnius_th_place
Edit: ok, i was quick to judge this list the first time i saw it without actually testing it. today i jammed a few games on xmage and i fell in love with it instantly! this is so fun to play!
With the new inclusion of Finale of Promise in my Jund Living Endvine list, it’s opened up a few new possibilities. Dreadhorde becomes less of a risk because we have a backup plan if it’s removed.
To be honest, the reason I took it into this direction is because I really really don’t like having to change up the decks mana base. All these lists splashing blue are gravitating further and further from the Vengevine plan and basically becoming Dredge with the exception of wanting Vengevines in the list. Dredge just does all of this stuff better and without the need for Vengevine.
I’ve always liked the Jund mana base with Vengevine decks.
I can see what you mean with Purporos plan, but if you consider how the old lists with BfB played out...it’s quite similar. You mill yourself and hit Vengevines and Living End. Then you cast Living End as a board wipe that also gets a bunch of your creatures back...
It’s a strange mixture of cards, sure...but it allows us to get a similarly powerful effect as BfB use to have.
At the very least, it’s a 2 mana board wipe with Finale of Promise...at the very most, it will kill the opponent as soon as it resolves. Either way you’d get value out of Living End in BfB’s place.
It saddens me that I’ve had to take such a strange route in order to keep Jund Dredgevine viable...but once again trying to throw Blue in all these lists is only serving to make them less consistent and just basically turning the deck into Dredge, which has better ways to win without wasting a slot on Vengevine.
Also keep in mind, all our 1/1’s mill our deck more. So when we hit Living End and resolve it, we can usually bring back Dreadhorde and loop LE for a 2nd time the following turn...insuring we mill Purphoros, and deal a huge amount of dmg to our opponent.
It’s an expensive strategy (which is why I haven’t jumped to build it in paper yet) but it seems to actually be working well. I’ll continue testing...but until I see a list that isn’t basically just Hogaak without Hogaak, I’m more interested in winnning as early as turn 3 with Living End and Vengevines as an added bonus, than trying to win through Vengevines and Amalgams when Batterskull pretty much prevents Vengevine from being effective at all.
I also removed Memnite from the deck. Not enough reason to run it anymore. Instead opted for 4 Cryptbreakers to give the deck both a draw and discard outlet that also works well with the other zombies in the deck. Keep in mind when we switch to BUG-Vine we lose the ability to run Force of Vigor in the side for g2. Force of Vigor is the best artifact removal in the format and it can win us games through graveyard hate easily.
Jund Endvine:
4 Cryptbreaker
3 Gravecrawler
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Dreadhorde Arcanist
2 Golgari Thug
3 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Purphoros, God of the Forge
4 Vengevine
Spells (10)
4 Living End
4 Memory Sluice
2 Finale of Promise
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Nurturing Peatland
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Cabal Therapist
2 Plague Engineer
2 Nature's Claim
1 Thoughtseize
3 Assassin's Trophy
1 Collective Brutality
3 Force of Vigor
2 Leyline of the Void
4 Gravecrawler
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Stitcher's Supplier
3 Dreadhorde Arcanist
4 Bloodghast
4 Vengevine
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Purphoros, god of the forge
3 Cathartic reunion
4 Memory Sluice
3 Living end
1 Finale of Promise
Lands (18)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
2 Swamp
I'd like to include Claim//Fame somehow to pull back a milled Arcanist but I'm just not sure there's room
Draft My Cube!
Yes. Multiple Purphoros trigger before legend rule applies.
Also, don’t make the mistake I did by cutting the purphoros. The deck needs 4 to ensure a quick kill. Cryptbreaker is a must have in the deck because it is a draw engine that synergizes with Dreadhorde and Stitchers. It’s the only way to refill our hand since we aren’t playing a bunch of cycling cards like traditional Living End. Instead we opt for a more zombie focused mill strategy with emphasis on Vengevines. Cryptbreaker can discard our Living Ends and Purphoros to get some value. It’s basically taking Faithless Lootings spot in the deck alongside Insolent Neonate.
The deck has a surprisingly useful amount of card draw and Memory Sluice just serves to feed Dreadhorde cards when he’s in play, or opens up Finale of Promise to end the game on the spot.
Worse case scenario, we can keep board wiping our opponent with Living End until we mill Living End and Purphoros to kill our opponent. Vengevines fit very well in the deck...it’s not uncommon to hit 3 or 4 of them in 1 conspired Memory Sluice.
I’ve been thinking of taking out Satyr Wayfinder and using Glowspore Shaman instead...just to enable conspire with Memory Sluice.
Finally, Claim//Fame really isn’t a must have if you run Golgari Thug instead of Stinkweed. Golgari Thug is a bit slower...but it can return Dreadhorde to top of deck if we really need it back that bad, and it frees up a slot for a 3rd Finale of Promise (you’ll want that as a backup in case our opponent bolts Dreadhorde). Most of the time though, we can just cast recursive threats until we draw into another Dreadhorde or Finale.
Also as a big tip...always try to mull for Vengevine turn 2 or Dreadhorde turn 2. It’s a bit different than the old lists where you wanna play out a bunch of 1 drops on turn 1...you can Memory Sluice turn 1 and save your 1 drops for turn 2.
If going for the purphoros combo, could we consider a singleton Deep Forest Hermit since hitting one of those alongside a pair of Purphoros should be GG. And if that's too cute then maybe at least a Haunted Dead or two?
I like the idea of having a 3rd copy of Finale if you're going all in on the combo game. Vengevine and Zombie package provides a nice aggro plan B as well
EDT
I like Claim//fame specifically because if it's in your graveyard you can recast the Reanimate half with an active Arcanist. But maybe Postmortem Lunge could be considered as well
Draft My Cube!
I’m not huge on Deep Forest Hermit. Just milling a couple of Purphoros is enough to close out the game when LE resolves. I did cut 1 copy of Memory Sluice to add a 3rd copy of Finale of Promise, because it usually ensures our LE going through even if they Path our Dreadhorde or have removal.
Even if we only get a few creatures back from LE in the early game, wiping the opponents board is usually enough to ensure a victory since they will be way behind compared to our board state, and most of our stuff just further mills our deck when it returns and continues setting up the OTK.
Postmortem Lunge does seem like an interesting addition...but the deck needs to be pretty creature heavy in order to enable Vengevines. Gotta be careful not to add too many spells.
On the subject of sideboard, I think cutting the Leyline of the Voids and replacing them with 2 copies of Surgical Extraction might be a better option as far as GY hate goes.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
4 Gravecrawler
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Bloodghast
4 Hedron Crab
4 Merfolk Secretkeeper
4 Vengevine
2 Lotleth Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Memory Sluice
2 Collective Brutality
2 Fatal Push
Lands (20)
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Blooming Marsh
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamp
Likely Sideboard 4x Creeping Chill for the burn match up
Draft My Cube!
1 is a build with "glimpse and creeping chill" and the other build is with "collective brutality no chill". both this build has hedron crab in it.
Draft My Cube!
Creeping Chill Build: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-league-2019-09-20#losilla_-
Collective Brutality Build: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-league-2019-09-20#papepipo_-
Here are also past mtgo 5-0 league results since the ban of looting, each of which has a dredgevine list in it.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-league-2019-09-03
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-league-2019-09-06
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-league-2019-09-10
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-league-2019-09-13
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-league-2019-09-17
I’m really not convinced that Sultai is the way to go with the deck. The Sultai lists are severely lacking on the ability to discard things without Faithless Looting.
Hogaakvine was obviously the peak of Bridgevines success...without Hogaak and Looting and BfB, we still need some way to have a powerful aggro list in these colors. I like the Living End combo I built with Vengevines (listed above), however it just seems to not be all that fast to set up, though it can OTK.
sultai vengevine did a great showing again in modern challenge at 9th position.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-challenge-2019-09-22#schnabulant_th_place
there's also another sultai copy in that top32, result speaks for itself along with it's consistent 5-0 league.
looting is the primary reason to play red and now it's gone and players already finding success adapting sultai.
I’ve tried playing the Sultai lists. I don’t think they have enough discard to warrant Vengevine, it can really fall short when you get stuck with a bunch of Vengevines in hand. Also, I keep feeling like the Sultai lists are just weaker versions of dredge. They even adopted Narcomoeba at this point.
I think there are still ways to make Vengevine work in a jund shell, especially with how powerful Cryptbreaker has become in a world without Faithless Looting.
The whole reason I fell in love with Bridgevine in the first place was because I didn’t like the awkward mana base in dredge, I liked the zombie theme, and explosive turn 1 plays.